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Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

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  • RandyZ. Pierce
    I flat out disagree with the origninal post. I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract. Brady didn t hold
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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      I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.
       
      The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   
       
      Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...
       
      We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.
       
      Go Pats!
      Zip
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM
      Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

      Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
      and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
      5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
      suffered more if they had not signed him.

      I think they'll work something out with Seymour. But if they don't,
      we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
      player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
      is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
      than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
      he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
      Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

      Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
      not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
      doesn't have that problem.

      Anyone else have an opinion?

      fdb

      --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
      > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
      Seymour hold
      > out and Harrison's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
      exorbitant
      > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
      the team.
      > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
      the short
      > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
      years left
      > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
      > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
      way that
      > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
      > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
      >

      >
      > Don
      >

      >
      >   _____ 
      >
      > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of George
      > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
      > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
      > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
      > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
      >

      >
      > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
      that
      > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
      the hood,
      > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
      BB for a
      > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
      that BB
      > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
      going to
      > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
      smidgen) as
      > our #2 WR behind "Hollywood". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
      going to be
      > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
      them. But,
      > as a group ... WOW!
      >

      >
      > George
      >
      > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From Rotoworld:
      >
      > The News
      > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
      > Our Take
      > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
      anticipate.
      > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
      > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
      > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
      > receiver.
      >
      > =================
      > Christopher Robert Woods
      > chris@p...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
      email to:
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
      email to:
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >   _____ 
      >
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    • jeepndd
      I m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive. But look at this quote; In terms of cap numbers, Vick s is $7.99 million this year, Brady s is $8.429
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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        I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

         

        In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

         

        While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

         

        Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

         

        So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

         

        I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

         

        Don

         


        From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
        Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
        To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

         

        I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

         

        The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

         

        Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

         

        We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

         

        Go Pats!

        Zip

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

        Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

         

        Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
        and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
        5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
        suffered more if they had not signed him.

        I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
        we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
        player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
        is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
        than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
        he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
        Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

        Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
        not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
        doesn't have that problem.

        Anyone else have an opinion?

        fdb

        --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
        > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
        Seymour hold
        > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
        exorbitant
        > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
        the team.
        > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
        the short
        > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
        years left
        > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
        > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
        way that
        > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
        > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
        >

        >
        > Don
        >

        >
        >   _____ 
        >
        > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of George
        > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
        > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
        > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
        > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
        >

        >
        > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
        that
        > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
        the hood,
        > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
        BB for a
        > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
        that BB
        > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
        going to
        > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
        smidgen) as
        > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
        going to be
        > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
        them. But,
        > as a group ... WOW!
        >

        >
        > George
        >
        > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From Rotoworld:
        >
        > The News
        > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
        > Our Take
        > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
        anticipate.
        > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
        > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
        > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
        > receiver.
        >
        > =================
        > Christopher Robert Woods
        > chris@p...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
        email to:
        > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
        email to:
        > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >   _____ 
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/patriotzip/
        >  
        > *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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        > *      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.




        To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an email to:
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      • RandyZ. Pierce
        Your position has merit in some aspects. I don t disparage you for having it though I still don t agree with it. You cited one year for the cap numbers of
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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          Your position has merit in some aspects.  I don't disparage you for having it though I still don't agree with it.  You cited one year for the cap numbers of Tom, Vick and Manning.  Do the save for every year and you'll get a much more clear image that tom took a deal entirely friendly to the team and established to ensure he could remain with the team.
           
          Seymour is without argument worth more than what he is receiving.  I am uncertain, as presumedly are you, what level of contract negotiations are in progress.  I know he stayed out of mini-camp and allegedly for contract issues.  Beyond that I have nothing to help me understand the progress.
           
          The facts are that a team has to be undert the salary cap and the more quality players involved the more challenging.
           
          There is no doubt that Tom was made a wealthy man.  There is little doubt in my mind that his role on this team is the most vital.  Seymour has lousy numbers but that doesn't change my awareness that he is deserving of consideration as the best DL in all of football.  Numbers only tell part of a story and can frequently be used to tell a variety of tales depending on how they are displayed.  Tom's sacks are low - is it because of a great offensive line or his very high level of pocket awareness and pocket mobility?  Seymour's sacks are low, is it because teams overload protection on him?  Is it the system in which he stays to his job and makes our teamt he Champions?
           
          I've been a season ticket holder much longer than this team has been talented.  I welcome the band wagons and the excitement of winning because while I"m loyal either way, I can tell you just how much more fun comes from winning football and hoisting Lombardi Trophies.  I also like the entire class our ogranaization has risen to achieve.  Days of shame are infrequent and days of pride on and off the field are high. 
           
          Sure I would have liked Tom to take an even better deal but I don't expect him or any player to be so extreme though I am thankful for the Tedy Bruschi and Bobby Hamilton's of the world whom do have this view and willingess.  They are the largest part of why we can be successful and they are reaping the rewards of that success in ways beyond money.  (Yeah, I know Bobby's gone but he was that kind of guy)
           
          Go Pats!
          Zip
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: jeepndd
          Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:16 AM
          Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

          I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

           

          “In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

           

          While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

           

          Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

           

          So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

           

          I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

           

          Don

           


          From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
          Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
          To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

           

          I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

           

          The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

           

          Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

           

          We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

           

          Go Pats!

          Zip

           

          ----- Original Message -----

          Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

          Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

           

          Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
          and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
          5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
          suffered more if they had not signed him.

          I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
          we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
          player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
          is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
          than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
          he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
          Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

          Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
          not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
          doesn't have that problem.

          Anyone else have an opinion?

          fdb

          --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
          > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
          Seymour hold
          > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
          exorbitant
          > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
          the team.
          > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
          the short
          > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
          years left
          > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
          > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
          way that
          > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
          > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
          >

          >
          > Don
          >

          >
          >   _____ 
          >
          > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of George
          > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
          > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
          > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
          > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
          >

          >
          > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
          that
          > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
          the hood,
          > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
          BB for a
          > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
          that BB
          > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
          going to
          > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
          smidgen) as
          > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
          going to be
          > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
          them. But,
          > as a group ... WOW!
          >

          >
          > George
          >
          > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From Rotoworld:
          >
          > The News
          > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
          > Our Take
          > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
          anticipate.
          > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
          > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
          > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
          > receiver.
          >
          > =================
          > Christopher Robert Woods
          > chris@p...
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
          email to:
          > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
          email to:
          > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >   _____ 
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/patriotzip/
          >  
          > *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          >  
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          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.




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        • Frank Northcutt
          ...
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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            --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:

            << I don't expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is
            all. I would hope however that you at least consider the position
            arguable. >>

            Difference of opinion and argument (in the classical sense of the
            word) keeps this board vital. How boring if we all agreed on everything!

            And who knows, maybe someone does agree with you. ;-)

            fdb
          • Ed Bryant
            I think, if you want to be taken seriously, you should consider your original use of cancer in the context in which it has traditionally been used in sports
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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              I think, if you want to be taken seriously, you should consider your original use of "cancer" in the context in which it has traditionally been used in sports cliches.  You said "I now see Brady as a cancer on this team."  Not Brady's contract, Brady.  Does the kid have a bad attitude?  Does he negotiate his contract in the newspaper?  Has he ever stopped trying to turn that 180 pound body of his into something that can withstand the rigors of his position, which, Bill Belichick reminds us, is a position in a market comprised of 32 teams, one qb per team.  A cancer?  The choice of words is carelessly provocative. 


              jeepndd <jeepndd@...> wrote:

              I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

               

              “In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

               

              While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

               

              Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

               

              So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

               

              I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

               

              Don

               


              From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
              Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
              To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

               

              I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

               

              The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

               

              Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

               

              We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

               

              Go Pats!

              Zip

               

              ----- Original Message -----

              Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

              Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

               

              Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
              and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
              5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
              suffered more if they had not signed him.

              I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
              we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
              player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
              is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
              than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
              he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
              Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

              Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
              not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
              doesn't have that problem.

              Anyone else have an opinion?

              fdb

              --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
              > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
              Seymour hold
              > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
              exorbitant
              > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
              the team.
              > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
              the short
              > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
              years left
              > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
              > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
              way that
              > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
              > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
              >

              >
              > Don
              >

              >
              >   _____ 
              >
              > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of George
              > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
              > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
              > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
              > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
              >

              >
              > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
              that
              > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
              the hood,
              > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
              BB for a
              > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
              that BB
              > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
              going to
              > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
              smidgen) as
              > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
              going to be
              > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
              them. But,
              > as a group ... WOW!
              >

              >
              > George
              >
              > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From Rotoworld:
              >
              > The News
              > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
              > Our Take
              > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
              anticipate.
              > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
              > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
              > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
              > receiver.
              >
              > =================
              > Christopher Robert Woods
              > chris@p...
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
              email to:
              > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
              email to:
              > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >   _____ 
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/patriotzip/
              >  
              > *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              > <mailto:patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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              > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.




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            • Ed Bryant
              Actually, unlike Ted Washington, Bobby Hamilton signed with the Raiders for less than he was offered by New England, on the notion, I presume, any way, that he
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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                Actually, unlike Ted Washington, Bobby Hamilton signed with the Raiders for less than he was offered by New England, on the notion, I presume, any way, that he was not as likely to make the team in NE in 2004 as he was to make the Raiders.  He took less so he could play football!

                "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
                Your position has merit in some aspects.  I don't disparage you for having it though I still don't agree with it.  You cited one year for the cap numbers of Tom, Vick and Manning.  Do the save for every year and you'll get a much more clear image that tom took a deal entirely friendly to the team and established to ensure he could remain with the team.
                 
                Seymour is without argument worth more than what he is receiving.  I am uncertain, as presumedly are you, what level of contract negotiations are in progress.  I know he stayed out of mini-camp and allegedly for contract issues.  Beyond that I have nothing to help me understand the progress.
                 
                The facts are that a team has to be undert the salary cap and the more quality players involved the more challenging.
                 
                There is no doubt that Tom was made a wealthy man.  There is little doubt in my mind that his role on this team is the most vital.  Seymour has lousy numbers but that doesn't change my awareness that he is deserving of consideration as the best DL in all of football.  Numbers only tell part of a story and can frequently be used to tell a variety of tales depending on how they are displayed.  Tom's sacks are low - is it because of a great offensive line or his very high level of pocket awareness and pocket mobility?  Seymour's sacks are low, is it because teams overload protection on him?  Is it the system in which he stays to his job and makes our teamt he Champions?
                 
                I've been a season ticket holder much longer than this team has been talented.  I welcome the band wagons and the excitement of winning because while I"m loyal either way, I can tell you just how much more fun comes from winning football and hoisting Lombardi Trophies.  I also like the entire class our ogranaization has risen to achieve.  Days of shame are infrequent and days of pride on and off the field are high. 
                 
                Sure I would have liked Tom to take an even better deal but I don't expect him or any player to be so extreme though I am thankful for the Tedy Bruschi and Bobby Hamilton's of the world whom do have this view and willingess.  They are the largest part of why we can be successful and they are reaping the rewards of that success in ways beyond money.  (Yeah, I know Bobby's gone but he was that kind of guy)
                 
                Go Pats!
                Zip
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: jeepndd
                Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:16 AM
                Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

                 

                “In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

                 

                While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

                 

                Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

                 

                So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

                 

                I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

                 

                Don

                 


                From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
                Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
                To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                 

                I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

                 

                The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

                 

                Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

                 

                We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

                 

                Go Pats!

                Zip

                 

                ----- Original Message -----

                Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

                Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                 

                Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
                and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
                5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
                suffered more if they had not signed him.

                I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
                we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
                player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
                is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
                than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
                he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
                Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

                Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
                not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
                doesn't have that problem.

                Anyone else have an opinion?

                fdb

                --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
                > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
                Seymour hold
                > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
                exorbitant
                > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
                the team.
                > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
                the short
                > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
                years left
                > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
                > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
                way that
                > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
                > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
                >

                >
                > Don
                >

                >
                >   _____ 
                >
                > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of George
                > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
                > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
                > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
                > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
                >

                >
                > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
                that
                > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
                the hood,
                > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
                BB for a
                > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
                that BB
                > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
                going to
                > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
                smidgen) as
                > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
                going to be
                > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
                them. But,
                > as a group ... WOW!
                >

                >
                > George
                >
                > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From Rotoworld:
                >
                > The News
                > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
                > Our Take
                > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
                anticipate.
                > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
                > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
                > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
                > receiver.
                >
                > =================
                > Christopher Robert Woods
                > chris@p...
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
                email to:
                > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
                email to:
                > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >   _____ 
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/patriotzip/
                >  
                > *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                >  
                > *      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.




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              • Ed Bryant
                Actually, unlike Ted Washington, Bobby Hamilton signed with the Raiders for less than he was offered by New England, on the notion, I presume, any way, that he
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Actually, unlike Ted Washington, Bobby Hamilton signed with the Raiders for less than he was offered by New England, on the notion, I presume, any way, that he was not as likely to make the team in NE in 2004 as he was to make the Raiders.  He took less so he could play football!

                  "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
                  Your position has merit in some aspects.  I don't disparage you for having it though I still don't agree with it.  You cited one year for the cap numbers of Tom, Vick and Manning.  Do the save for every year and you'll get a much more clear image that tom took a deal entirely friendly to the team and established to ensure he could remain with the team.
                   
                  Seymour is without argument worth more than what he is receiving.  I am uncertain, as presumedly are you, what level of contract negotiations are in progress.  I know he stayed out of mini-camp and allegedly for contract issues.  Beyond that I have nothing to help me understand the progress.
                   
                  The facts are that a team has to be undert the salary cap and the more quality players involved the more challenging.
                   
                  There is no doubt that Tom was made a wealthy man.  There is little doubt in my mind that his role on this team is the most vital.  Seymour has lousy numbers but that doesn't change my awareness that he is deserving of consideration as the best DL in all of football.  Numbers only tell part of a story and can frequently be used to tell a variety of tales depending on how they are displayed.  Tom's sacks are low - is it because of a great offensive line or his very high level of pocket awareness and pocket mobility?  Seymour's sacks are low, is it because teams overload protection on him?  Is it the system in which he stays to his job and makes our teamt he Champions?
                   
                  I've been a season ticket holder much longer than this team has been talented.  I welcome the band wagons and the excitement of winning because while I"m loyal either way, I can tell you just how much more fun comes from winning football and hoisting Lombardi Trophies.  I also like the entire class our ogranaization has risen to achieve.  Days of shame are infrequent and days of pride on and off the field are high. 
                   
                  Sure I would have liked Tom to take an even better deal but I don't expect him or any player to be so extreme though I am thankful for the Tedy Bruschi and Bobby Hamilton's of the world whom do have this view and willingess.  They are the largest part of why we can be successful and they are reaping the rewards of that success in ways beyond money.  (Yeah, I know Bobby's gone but he was that kind of guy)
                   
                  Go Pats!
                  Zip
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: jeepndd
                  Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:16 AM
                  Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                  I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

                   

                  “In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

                   

                  While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

                   

                  Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

                   

                  So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

                   

                  I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

                   

                  Don

                   


                  From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
                  Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
                  To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                   

                  I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

                   

                  The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

                   

                  Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

                   

                  We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

                   

                  Go Pats!

                  Zip

                   

                  ----- Original Message -----

                  Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

                  Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                   

                  Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
                  and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
                  5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
                  suffered more if they had not signed him.

                  I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
                  we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
                  player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
                  is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
                  than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
                  he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
                  Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

                  Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
                  not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
                  doesn't have that problem.

                  Anyone else have an opinion?

                  fdb

                  --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
                  > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
                  Seymour hold
                  > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
                  exorbitant
                  > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
                  the team.
                  > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
                  the short
                  > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
                  years left
                  > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
                  > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
                  way that
                  > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
                  > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
                  >

                  >
                  > Don
                  >

                  >
                  >   _____ 
                  >
                  > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of George
                  > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
                  > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
                  > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
                  > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
                  >

                  >
                  > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
                  that
                  > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
                  the hood,
                  > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
                  BB for a
                  > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
                  that BB
                  > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
                  going to
                  > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
                  smidgen) as
                  > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
                  going to be
                  > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
                  them. But,
                  > as a group ... WOW!
                  >

                  >
                  > George
                  >
                  > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From Rotoworld:
                  >
                  > The News
                  > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
                  > Our Take
                  > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
                  anticipate.
                  > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
                  > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
                  > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
                  > receiver.
                  >
                  > =================
                  > Christopher Robert Woods
                  > chris@p...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • George
                  ***** All of what you say is worth the read, Randy. But the key sentence here, for all Patriots fans, is your last one. We are so deep because we have managed
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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                    ***** All of what you say is worth the read, Randy. But the key sentence here, for all Patriots fans, is your last one. "We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league."
                     
                    ***** The formula is clear. We have a brilliant QB at the controls of the offense; a very few very highly paid "stars" in other key positions; a handful of outstanding veterans who are taking less money to satisfy their hunger for a ring; and the rest of our team filled with solid, mid-level players, at those medium dollars. All of that is blended by BB and a significant carry over of his staff into a championship team.
                     
                    ***** There will be turnover each and every year, as some players decide that, with at least one ring on their hand, they choose to go for the bigger bucks available elsewhere. I truly believe that they will be replaced without destroying our chances for another Lombardi. They may be replaced by an outstanding draft pick, as Damien Woody and Ted Washington were; by an expensive, but less than top dollar FA, as Lawyer Milloy was; or by a relative unknown from our backups or practice squad, as has happened in our OL.
                     
                    ***** There are great players in this league. Every team must have at least a few of them to succeed. But there are enough sources from which to acquire, or develop, such players to make very, very few of them irreplaceable. (Yes, Brady may be one, on short notice, at least.) As long as the Patriots manage to lose no more than a couple of their outstanding players per season, their success will continue, because the rest of the formula remains in place.
                     
                    ***** So, if Seymour and Harrison are ready to make the move to the greener pastures of FA in a year or two, so be it. I hope that doesn't happen. But, if it isn't them, it's sure to be somebody else. There will always be players who believe that they require "X+ million", vs the "X million" that the Patriots can pay them to keep the team talent balanced. That's just life. Just as it is a fact of life that there will continue to be replacements for every one of them from one of the sources noted above. Those replacements need only give us what we need for at least a couple of seasons. Then, if they choose to go for the gold, they too, will be replaced. They'll go with my thanks for their contributions, as Ty Law has gone. But they are not "The New England Patriots", any more than FDR, Ike, JFK, or Reagan were "America". The entity goes on when the individual leaders fade. I'm a fan of the Patriots, and the players who contribute to their success, one game at a time. 
                     
                    George

                    "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
                    I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.
                     
                    The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   
                     
                    Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...
                     
                    We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.
                     
                    Go Pats!
                    Zip
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM
                    Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                    Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
                    and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
                    5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
                    suffered more if they had not signed him.

                    I think they'll work something out with Seymour. But if they don't,
                    we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
                    player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
                    is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
                    than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
                    he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
                    Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

                    Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
                    not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
                    doesn't have that problem.

                    Anyone else have an opinion?

                    fdb

                    --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
                    > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
                    Seymour hold
                    > out and Harrison's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
                    exorbitant
                    > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
                    the team.
                    > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
                    the short
                    > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
                    years left
                    > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
                    > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
                    way that
                    > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
                    > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
                    >

                    >
                    > Don
                    >

                    >
                    >   _____ 
                    >
                    > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf Of George
                    > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
                    > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
                    > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
                    > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
                    >

                    >
                    > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
                    that
                    > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
                    the hood,
                    > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
                    BB for a
                    > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
                    that BB
                    > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
                    going to
                    > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
                    smidgen) as
                    > our #2 WR behind "Hollywood". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
                    going to be
                    > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
                    them. But,
                    > as a group ... WOW!
                    >

                    >
                    > George
                    >
                    > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From Rotoworld:
                    >
                    > The News
                    > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
                    > Our Take
                    > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
                    anticipate.
                    > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
                    > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
                    > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
                    > receiver.
                    >
                    > =================
                    > Christopher Robert Woods
                    > chris@p...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
                    email to:
                    > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    email to:
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                  • George
                    ***** Don, the difference between Brady and Seymour is that Brady runs the offense, and is the only player at that critical position on the field for every
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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                      ***** Don, the difference between Brady and Seymour is that Brady runs the offense, and is the only player at that critical position on the field for every play from scrimmage. Seymour, as good as he is, is just one of 3 or 4 DL's for any given play, and not even on the field for every defensive play. Others around Seymour can "take up the slack" when he's out - whether that's for one play, or the rest of our season. That can't be said for Brady.
                       
                      ***** That said, I do believe that Brady's contract is outrageous, in real terms. But he is the only player on the team that is not immediately replaceable. He's taking most, thought not all,  of what that buys him. I don't consider him a "hero", because you are correct in saying that he could have taken less. However, I am grateful that he at least eschewed going for all that he could have demanded.
                       
                      ***** I believe, as I've said before, that BB would find a way to win without Brady. But it would likely require a very significant change in offensive strategy and tactics. Those changes would likely require significant changes in personnel, and, possibly even coaches. We would, at the very least, "skip a beat" or two if we lost Brady. I don't believe that to be the case with Seymour, or any other player on this team.
                       
                      George

                      jeepndd <jeepndd@...> wrote:

                      I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

                       

                      “In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

                       

                      While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

                       

                      Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

                       

                      So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

                       

                      I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

                       

                      Don

                       


                      From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
                      Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
                      To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                       

                      I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

                       

                      The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

                       

                      Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

                       

                      We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

                       

                      Go Pats!

                      Zip

                       

                      ----- Original Message -----

                      Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

                      Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                       

                      Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
                      and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
                      5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
                      suffered more if they had not signed him.

                      I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
                      we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
                      player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
                      is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
                      than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
                      he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
                      Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

                      Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
                      not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
                      doesn't have that problem.

                      Anyone else have an opinion?

                      fdb

                      --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
                      > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
                      Seymour hold
                      > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
                      exorbitant
                      > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
                      the team.
                      > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
                      the short
                      > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
                      years left
                      > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
                      > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
                      way that
                      > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
                      > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
                      >

                      >
                      > Don
                      >

                      >
                      >   _____ 
                      >
                      > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of George
                      > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
                      > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
                      > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
                      > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
                      >

                      >
                      > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
                      that
                      > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
                      the hood,
                      > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
                      BB for a
                      > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
                      that BB
                      > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
                      going to
                      > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
                      smidgen) as
                      > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
                      going to be
                      > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
                      them. But,
                      > as a group ... WOW!
                      >

                      >
                      > George
                      >
                      > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From Rotoworld:
                      >
                      > The News
                      > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
                      > Our Take
                      > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
                      anticipate.
                      > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
                      > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
                      > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
                      > receiver.
                      >
                      > =================
                      > Christopher Robert Woods
                      > chris@p...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
                      email to:
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                    • jeepndd
                      That is exactly what I like about this list, it s never a rehash of a seventies SNL Weekend Update episode. ;) Don _____ From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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                        That is exactly what I like about this list, it’s never a rehash of a seventies SNL Weekend Update episode. ;)

                         

                        Don

                         


                        From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Northcutt
                        Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:58 AM
                        To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                         

                        --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:

                        << I don't expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is
                        all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position
                        arguable. >>

                        Difference of opinion and argument (in the classical sense of the
                        word) keeps this board vital. How boring if we all agreed on everything!

                        And who knows, maybe someone does agree with you. ;-)

                        fdb




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                      • RandyZ. Pierce
                        I m fairly certain you are incorrect in this assumption Ed. I have it on second hand (barely) authority that Bobby pleaded with the Pats to make him any offer
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 14, 2005
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                          I'm fairly certain you are incorrect in this assumption Ed.  I have it on second hand (barely) authority that Bobby pleaded with the Pats to make him any offer including a minimum tender offer.  The Patriots had no contract offer for him at all and despite pushing from Big Ted, Hamilton gave the Pats every last chance to make *ANY* offer to him before signing with the Raiders.  My source whom heard it first hand is on this list...
                           
                          Go Pats!
                          Zip
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Ed Bryant
                          Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:06 PM
                          Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                          Actually, unlike Ted Washington, Bobby Hamilton signed with the Raiders for less than he was offered by New England, on the notion, I presume, any way, that he was not as likely to make the team in NE in 2004 as he was to make the Raiders.  He took less so he could play football!

                          "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
                          Your position has merit in some aspects.  I don't disparage you for having it though I still don't agree with it.  You cited one year for the cap numbers of Tom, Vick and Manning.  Do the save for every year and you'll get a much more clear image that tom took a deal entirely friendly to the team and established to ensure he could remain with the team.
                           
                          Seymour is without argument worth more than what he is receiving.  I am uncertain, as presumedly are you, what level of contract negotiations are in progress.  I know he stayed out of mini-camp and allegedly for contract issues.  Beyond that I have nothing to help me understand the progress.
                           
                          The facts are that a team has to be undert the salary cap and the more quality players involved the more challenging.
                           
                          There is no doubt that Tom was made a wealthy man.  There is little doubt in my mind that his role on this team is the most vital.  Seymour has lousy numbers but that doesn't change my awareness that he is deserving of consideration as the best DL in all of football.  Numbers only tell part of a story and can frequently be used to tell a variety of tales depending on how they are displayed.  Tom's sacks are low - is it because of a great offensive line or his very high level of pocket awareness and pocket mobility?  Seymour's sacks are low, is it because teams overload protection on him?  Is it the system in which he stays to his job and makes our teamt he Champions?
                           
                          I've been a season ticket holder much longer than this team has been talented.  I welcome the band wagons and the excitement of winning because while I"m loyal either way, I can tell you just how much more fun comes from winning football and hoisting Lombardi Trophies.  I also like the entire class our ogranaization has risen to achieve.  Days of shame are infrequent and days of pride on and off the field are high. 
                           
                          Sure I would have liked Tom to take an even better deal but I don't expect him or any player to be so extreme though I am thankful for the Tedy Bruschi and Bobby Hamilton's of the world whom do have this view and willingess.  They are the largest part of why we can be successful and they are reaping the rewards of that success in ways beyond money.  (Yeah, I know Bobby's gone but he was that kind of guy)
                           
                          Go Pats!
                          Zip
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: jeepndd
                          Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:16 AM
                          Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                          I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

                           

                          “In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

                           

                          While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

                           

                          Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

                           

                          So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

                           

                          I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

                           

                          Don

                           


                          From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
                          Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
                          To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                           

                          I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

                           

                          The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

                           

                          Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

                           

                          We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

                           

                          Go Pats!

                          Zip

                           

                          ----- Original Message -----

                          Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

                          Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                           

                          Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
                          and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
                          5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
                          suffered more if they had not signed him.

                          I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
                          we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
                          player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
                          is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
                          than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
                          he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
                          Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

                          Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
                          not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
                          doesn't have that problem.

                          Anyone else have an opinion?

                          fdb

                          --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
                          > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
                          Seymour hold
                          > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
                          exorbitant
                          > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
                          the team.
                          > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
                          the short
                          > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
                          years left
                          > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
                          > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
                          way that
                          > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
                          > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
                          >

                          >
                          > Don
                          >

                          >
                          >   _____ 
                          >
                          > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of George
                          > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
                          > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
                          > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
                          > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
                          >

                          >
                          > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
                          that
                          > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
                          the hood,
                          > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
                          BB for a
                          > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
                          that BB
                          > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
                          going to
                          > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
                          smidgen) as
                          > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
                          going to be
                          > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
                          them. But,
                          > as a group ... WOW!
                          >

                          >
                          > George
                          >
                          > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From Rotoworld:
                          >
                          > The News
                          > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
                          > Our Take
                          > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
                          anticipate.
                          > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
                          > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
                          > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
                          > receiver.
                          >
                          > =================
                          > Christopher Robert Woods
                          > chris@p...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
                          email to:
                          > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
                          email to:
                          > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >   _____ 
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/patriotzip/
                          >  
                          > *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                          > <mailto:patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.




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                        • Ed Bryant
                          Well, I m not having any luck backtracking to the old contract negotiations, but google has convinced me that Bobby Hamiton has signed yet again with the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 15, 2005
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                            Well, I'm not having any luck backtracking to the old contract negotiations, but google has convinced me that Bobby Hamiton has signed yet again with the Raiders, this contract being signed in May 0f 2005.  Just last week, Zeron Flemister and Kevin Kasper found jobs.  It wasn't so long ago you didn't play in the NFL after being released by New England!  It's nice to have our current problems. 
                             
                            Do you suppose any future SB ring would be big enough for a big print warning:  The Surgeon General has determined that winning the Super Bowl causes paternity!
                            I base this on the saying "Victory has a thousand fathers, defeat is an orphan."  The Surgeon General part was inspired by the Brady cancer hypothesis which fertilized our lives last week. 



                            "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
                            I'm fairly certain you are incorrect in this assumption Ed.  I have it on second hand (barely) authority that Bobby pleaded with the Pats to make him any offer including a minimum tender offer.  The Patriots had no contract offer for him at all and despite pushing from Big Ted, Hamilton gave the Pats every last chance to make *ANY* offer to him before signing with the Raiders.  My source whom heard it first hand is on this list...
                             
                            Go Pats!
                            Zip
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Ed Bryant
                            Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:06 PM
                            Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                            Actually, unlike Ted Washington, Bobby Hamilton signed with the Raiders for less than he was offered by New England, on the notion, I presume, any way, that he was not as likely to make the team in NE in 2004 as he was to make the Raiders.  He took less so he could play football!

                            "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
                            Your position has merit in some aspects.  I don't disparage you for having it though I still don't agree with it.  You cited one year for the cap numbers of Tom, Vick and Manning.  Do the save for every year and you'll get a much more clear image that tom took a deal entirely friendly to the team and established to ensure he could remain with the team.
                             
                            Seymour is without argument worth more than what he is receiving.  I am uncertain, as presumedly are you, what level of contract negotiations are in progress.  I know he stayed out of mini-camp and allegedly for contract issues.  Beyond that I have nothing to help me understand the progress.
                             
                            The facts are that a team has to be undert the salary cap and the more quality players involved the more challenging.
                             
                            There is no doubt that Tom was made a wealthy man.  There is little doubt in my mind that his role on this team is the most vital.  Seymour has lousy numbers but that doesn't change my awareness that he is deserving of consideration as the best DL in all of football.  Numbers only tell part of a story and can frequently be used to tell a variety of tales depending on how they are displayed.  Tom's sacks are low - is it because of a great offensive line or his very high level of pocket awareness and pocket mobility?  Seymour's sacks are low, is it because teams overload protection on him?  Is it the system in which he stays to his job and makes our teamt he Champions?
                             
                            I've been a season ticket holder much longer than this team has been talented.  I welcome the band wagons and the excitement of winning because while I"m loyal either way, I can tell you just how much more fun comes from winning football and hoisting Lombardi Trophies.  I also like the entire class our ogranaization has risen to achieve.  Days of shame are infrequent and days of pride on and off the field are high. 
                             
                            Sure I would have liked Tom to take an even better deal but I don't expect him or any player to be so extreme though I am thankful for the Tedy Bruschi and Bobby Hamilton's of the world whom do have this view and willingess.  They are the largest part of why we can be successful and they are reaping the rewards of that success in ways beyond money.  (Yeah, I know Bobby's gone but he was that kind of guy)
                             
                            Go Pats!
                            Zip
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: jeepndd
                            Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:16 AM
                            Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                            I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

                             

                            “In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

                             

                            While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

                             

                            Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

                             

                            So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

                             

                            I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

                             

                            Don

                             


                            From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
                            Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
                            To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                             

                            I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

                             

                            The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

                             

                            Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

                             

                            We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

                             

                            Go Pats!

                            Zip

                             

                            ----- Original Message -----

                            Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

                            Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

                             

                            Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
                            and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
                            5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
                            suffered more if they had not signed him.

                            I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
                            we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
                            player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
                            is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
                            than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
                            he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
                            Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

                            Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
                            not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
                            doesn't have that problem.

                            Anyone else have an opinion?

                            fdb

                            --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
                            > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
                            Seymour hold
                            > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
                            exorbitant
                            > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
                            the team.
                            > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
                            the short
                            > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
                            years left
                            > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
                            > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
                            way that
                            > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
                            > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
                            >

                            >
                            > Don
                            >

                            >
                            >   _____ 
                            >
                            > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of George
                            > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
                            > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
                            > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
                            > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
                            >

                            >
                            > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
                            that
                            > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
                            the hood,
                            > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
                            BB for a
                            > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
                            that BB
                            > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
                            going to
                            > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
                            smidgen) as
                            > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
                            going to be
                            > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
                            them. But,
                            > as a group ... WOW!
                            >

                            >
                            > George
                            >
                            > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From Rotoworld:
                            >
                            > The News
                            > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
                            > Our Take
                            > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
                            anticipate.
                            > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
                            > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
                            > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
                            > receiver.
                            >
                            > =================
                            > Christopher Robert Woods
                            > chris@p...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
                            email to:
                            > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
                            email to:
                            > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >   _____ 
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/patriotzip/
                            >  
                            > *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            > <mailto:patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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