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Raiders pick for Seymour suddenly looks less valuable

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  • Rich Carreiro
    Damn. According to Mortenson (via Reiss), if there is any rookie salary cap, it won t be implemented until 2012, or the year AFTER the pick NE got from the
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 1, 2010
      Damn.

      According to Mortenson (via Reiss), if there is any rookie salary
      cap, it won't be implemented until 2012, or the year AFTER the
      pick NE got from the Raiders. :(

      --
      Rich Carreiro rlcarr@...
    • Ed Bryant
      That fact was brought up a number of times in September, before Glenn Ordway started repeating the opposite! ... From: Rich Carreiro
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 2, 2010
        That "fact" was brought up a number of times in September, before Glenn Ordway started repeating the opposite!

        --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Rich Carreiro <rlcarr@...> wrote:

        From: Rich Carreiro <rlcarr@...>
        Subject: Raiders pick for Seymour suddenly looks less valuable
        To: "Bosco Pats List" <patriots@...>, "Zip Patriots List" <patriotzip@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 10:56 PM

        Damn.

        According to Mortenson (via Reiss), if there is any rookie salary
        cap, it won't be implemented until 2012, or the year AFTER the
        pick NE got from the Raiders. :(

        --
        Rich Carreiro                            rlcarr@...

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        patriots@...
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      • frankdanabrewster
        I, for one, still like the trade. If it turns out to be a top 10 pick (possible if Oakland goes 5-11) we ll just trade down for 2 or 3 picks. If it s lower
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 3, 2010
          I, for one, still like the trade. If it turns out to be a top 10 pick (possible if Oakland goes 5-11) we'll just trade down for 2 or 3 picks. If it's lower than that, we probably use it.

          The point is, they weren't going to resign him this year anyway. He wasn't worth what he was going to be asking for; both in dollars and years. We could let him walk after this season for nothing, or get some value for him now. IMO, they made a good decision.

          fdb

          --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, Ed Bryant <edbryant36@...> wrote:
          >
          > That "fact" was brought up a number of times in September, before Glenn Ordway started repeating the opposite!
          >
          > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Rich Carreiro <rlcarr@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Rich Carreiro <rlcarr@...>
          > Subject: Raiders pick for Seymour suddenly looks less valuable
          > To: "Bosco Pats List" <patriots@...>, "Zip Patriots List" <patriotzip@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 10:56 PM
          >
          > Damn.
          >
          > According to Mortenson (via Reiss), if there is any rookie salary
          > cap, it won't be implemented until 2012, or the year AFTER the
          > pick NE got from the Raiders. :(
          >
          > --
          > Rich Carreiro                            rlcarr@...
          >
          > _______________________________________________
          > patriots mailing list
          > patriots@...
          > http://lists.bosco.net/mailman/listinfo/patriots
          >
        • kmacalp@aol.com
          I look at it this way, if we had Seymour all year long, we re looking at a 4th Super Bowl win. Letting him walk for nothing after the win is worth it to me.
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 5, 2010
            I look at it this way, if we had Seymour all year long, we're looking at a 4th Super Bowl win. Letting him walk for nothing after the win is worth it to me. I'd gladly trade an unproven first rounder for a Super Bowl win. Put it this way, there's a first round every year, and this team has been around for 50 years. Some times we trade our picks away, etc., etc, but that 1st round is there every year whether we want to use it or trade it. Even in the 08 draft when we lost a 1st rounder due to Spygate, we still had another 1st rounder thanks to a trade. In contrast to those 50 drafts, we've only won 3 Super Bowls in team history. So, yeah, keep your 1st Round pick Al Davis, I want a Super Bowl, a Super Bowl which would have got Brady tied with Bradshaw and Montana for the most Super Bowl wins and Belichick at tie with Chuck Noll for the most SB wins as a head coach. It also would have tied the Steelers and 49ers for the most Super Bowl wins in a decade. Is all that worth letting Seymour walk for nothing at the end of the year after he's gone all out in a contract year? Yup.
             
            Even though his job was to tie up blockers so linebackers could make plays, Seymour still led the Pats in sacks last year. What's been our defense's biggest weakness? The pass rush. Add the sacks Seymour could have provided along with the opportunities he creates for other rushers by drawing double teams. Add in his effectiveness against the run.
             
            Jarvis Green has always played well in spots, but he's not spectacular over the long haul of an entire season. Fill in here or there, and he's a contributor. As a full time starter, he's just okay. Plus, Green missed time due to injury this year.
             
            For all we know, that 1st round pick could be a bust. It's not like Belichick is flawless in the higher rounds of the drafts. I mean is anyone salviating about how Chad Jackson is just gonna torch that Ravens' secondary? And Maroney and Watson have played well at times, but there's been a lot of disappointment too.
             
            Scott Sheaffer

          • frankdanabrewster
            It s an interesting discussion, Scott. Of course, we ll never know what Seymour would have done with the Pats this year. I do think your first sentence is a
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 5, 2010
              It's an interesting discussion, Scott. Of course, we'll never know what Seymour would have done with the Pats this year. I do think your first sentence is a major assumption. Would he have put us over the top? I'm not willing to take that step. Would he have helped? Probably, but perhaps more in the run defense than as a pass rusher. Here are our top sack leaders this year:

              Banta-Cain 9.5
              Burgess (yeah, I'm shocked too) 5.0
              Wright 5.0

              and last year:

              Seymour 8.0
              A. Thomas 5.0
              Vrabel 4.0

              Our top 3 sackers had more sacks this year than last, and our leading sacker (TBC) had more than Seymour did last year.

              On a side note, Seymour was 3rd in sacks with Oakland this year with 4.0. I know it's a different defense, and not a very good team, but it doesn't support the sack argument. To me, his greatest value was in run defense, where he occupied blockers for the LBs to make plays.

              You certainly make a valid point regarding our draft success. It has been inconsistent, for sure. I think we'll have a better idea of how good the trade was a year from now. ;o)

              fdb


              --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, kmacalp@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > I look at it this way, if we had Seymour all year long, we're looking at a 4th Super Bowl win. Letting him walk for nothing after the win is worth it to me. I'd gladly trade an unproven first rounder for a Super Bowl win. Put it this way, there's a first round every year, and this team has been around for 50 years. Some times we trade our picks away, etc., etc, but that 1st round is there every year whether we want to use it or trade it. Even in the 08 draft when we lost a 1st rounder due to Spygate, we still had another 1st rounder thanks to a trade. In contrast to those 50 drafts, we've only won 3 Super Bowls in team history. So, yeah, keep your 1st Round pick Al Davis, I want a Super Bowl, a Super Bowl which would have got Brady tied with Bradshaw and Montana for the most Super Bowl wins and Belichick at tie with Chuck Noll for the most SB wins as a head coach. It also would have tied the Steelers and 49ers for the most Super Bowl wins in a decade. Is all that worth letting Seymour walk for nothing at the end of the year after he's gone all out in a contract year? Yup.
              >
              > Even though his job was to tie up blockers so linebackers could make plays, Seymour still led the Pats in sacks last year. What's been our defense's biggest weakness? The pass rush. Add the sacks Seymour could have provided along with the opportunities he creates for other rushers by drawing double teams. Add in his effectiveness against the run.
              >
              > Jarvis Green has always played well in spots, but he's not spectacular over the long haul of an entire season. Fill in here or there, and he's a contributor. As a full time starter, he's just okay. Plus, Green missed time due to injury this year.
              >
              > For all we know, that 1st round pick could be a bust. It's not like Belichick is flawless in the higher rounds of the drafts. I mean is anyone salviating about how Chad Jackson is just gonna torch that Ravens' secondary? And Maroney and Watson have played well at times, but there's been a lot of disappointment too.
              >
              > Scott Sheaffer
              >
              >
              >
              > =
              >
            • Kevin Morgan
              Scott, you have really stated the case correctly.  I hated the Seymour trade when they did it, and I hate it still today.  Sometimes I wonder what the hell
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 5, 2010
                Scott, you have really stated the case correctly.  I hated the Seymour trade when they did it, and I hate it still today.  Sometimes I wonder what the hell these guys are thinking?  Maybe you should be in Pioli's old position! 
                 
                Anything can happen, to Anyone, at Anytime.



                From: "kmacalp@..." <kmacalp@...>
                To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 6:11:46 AM
                Subject: [patriotzip] Re: Raiders pick for Seymour suddenly looks less valuable

                 

                I look at it this way, if we had Seymour all year long, we're looking at a 4th Super Bowl win. Letting him walk for nothing after the win is worth it to me. I'd gladly trade an unproven first rounder for a Super Bowl win. Put it this way, there's a first round every year, and this team has been around for 50 years. Some times we trade our picks away, etc., etc, but that 1st round is there every year whether we want to use it or trade it. Even in the 08 draft when we lost a 1st rounder due to Spygate, we still had another 1st rounder thanks to a trade. In contrast to those 50 drafts, we've only won 3 Super Bowls in team history. So, yeah, keep your 1st Round pick Al Davis, I want a Super Bowl, a Super Bowl which would have got Brady tied with Bradshaw and Montana for the most Super Bowl wins and Belichick at tie with Chuck Noll for the most SB wins as a head coach. It also would have tied the Steelers and 49ers for the most Super Bowl wins in a decade. Is all that worth letting Seymour walk for nothing at the end of the year after he's gone all out in a contract year? Yup.
                 
                Even though his job was to tie up blockers so linebackers could make plays, Seymour still led the Pats in sacks last year. What's been our defense's biggest weakness? The pass rush. Add the sacks Seymour could have provided along with the opportunities he creates for other rushers by drawing double teams. Add in his effectiveness against the run.
                 
                Jarvis Green has always played well in spots, but he's not spectacular over the long haul of an entire season. Fill in here or there, and he's a contributor. As a full time starter, he's just okay. Plus, Green missed time due to injury this year.
                 
                For all we know, that 1st round pick could be a bust. It's not like Belichick is flawless in the higher rounds of the drafts. I mean is anyone salviating about how Chad Jackson is just gonna torch that Ravens' secondary? And Maroney and Watson have played well at times, but there's been a lot of disappointment too.
                 
                Scott Sheaffer


              • Ed Bryant
                Judge this year s Raiders defense by the number of plays they were on the field.  I can t believe they had a lot of first downs and scores to lessen their
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 5, 2010
                  Judge this year's Raiders defense by the number of plays they were on the field.  I can't believe they had a lot of first downs and scores to lessen their burden the first ten weeks or so of the season.

                  As much as I defend our defense this season, and criticize Brady for interceptions where there was no reason for desperation, where desperation would have provided an excuse, on first and second down in NO, Miami, and in Houston, Brady's bunch, while silent inside the 20 too often, did a good job of eating clock moving from our end to theirs, to the tune of thirty two plus minutes per game of offense, during which time the defense sat.  I don't know the Raiders' numbers, but their defense was pretty good under the circs!!!!

                  --- On Tue, 1/5/10, frankdanabrewster <frank.dana@...> wrote:

                  From: frankdanabrewster <frank.dana@...>
                  Subject: [patriotzip] Re: Raiders pick for Seymour suddenly looks less valuable
                  To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 7:38 AM

                   

                  It's an interesting discussion, Scott. Of course, we'll never know what Seymour would have done with the Pats this year. I do think your first sentence is a major assumption. Would he have put us over the top? I'm not willing to take that step. Would he have helped? Probably, but perhaps more in the run defense than as a pass rusher. Here are our top sack leaders this year:

                  Banta-Cain 9.5
                  Burgess (yeah, I'm shocked too) 5.0
                  Wright 5.0

                  and last year:

                  Seymour 8.0
                  A. Thomas 5.0
                  Vrabel 4.0

                  Our top 3 sackers had more sacks this year than last, and our leading sacker (TBC) had more than Seymour did last year.

                  On a side note, Seymour was 3rd in sacks with Oakland this year with 4.0. I know it's a different defense, and not a very good team, but it doesn't support the sack argument. To me, his greatest value was in run defense, where he occupied blockers for the LBs to make plays.

                  You certainly make a valid point regarding our draft success. It has been inconsistent, for sure. I think we'll have a better idea of how good the trade was a year from now. ;o)

                  fdb

                  --- In patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com, kmacalp@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I look at it this way, if we had Seymour all year long, we're looking at a 4th Super Bowl win. Letting him walk for nothing after the win is worth it to me. I'd gladly trade an unproven first rounder for a Super Bowl win. Put it this way, there's a first round every year, and this team has been around for 50 years. Some times we trade our picks away, etc., etc, but that 1st round is there every year whether we want to use it or trade it. Even in the 08 draft when we lost a 1st rounder due to Spygate, we still had another 1st rounder thanks to a trade. In contrast to those 50 drafts, we've only won 3 Super Bowls in team history. So, yeah, keep your 1st Round pick Al Davis, I want a Super Bowl, a Super Bowl which would have got Brady tied with Bradshaw and Montana for the most Super Bowl wins and Belichick at tie with Chuck Noll for the most SB wins as a head coach. It also would have tied the Steelers and 49ers for the most Super Bowl wins in a decade. Is all that worth letting Seymour walk for nothing at the end of the year after he's gone all out in a contract year? Yup.
                  >
                  > Even though his job was to tie up blockers so linebackers could make plays, Seymour still led the Pats in sacks last year. What's been our defense's biggest weakness? The pass rush. Add the sacks Seymour could have provided along with the opportunities he creates for other rushers by drawing double teams. Add in his effectiveness against the run.
                  >
                  > Jarvis Green has always played well in spots, but he's not spectacular over the long haul of an entire season. Fill in here or there, and he's a contributor. As a full time starter, he's just okay. Plus, Green missed time due to injury this year.
                  >
                  > For all we know, that 1st round pick could be a bust. It's not like Belichick is flawless in the higher rounds of the drafts. I mean is anyone salviating about how Chad Jackson is just gonna torch that Ravens' secondary? And Maroney and Watson have played well at times, but there's been a lot of disappointment too.
                  >
                  > Scott Sheaffer
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > =
                  >

                • Kevin Morgan
                  Hey, we know that, Stefan.  We just wish he was here for this season.  And on that note, while it may be true that no one can actually know what Big Sey
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 5, 2010
                    Hey, we know that, Stefan.  We just wish he was here for this season.  And on that note, while it may be true that no one can actually know what Big Sey would have brought to the table, I for one am reasonably sure it would have been better than what we're getting from Green or Pryor or anybody else.  
                     
                    Anything can happen, to Anyone, at Anytime.

                  • RandyZ. Pierce
                    There was no doubt in my mind that the loss of Seymour hurt us on the field of play. At the time I thought that it might have been several factors such as
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 6, 2010
                      There was no doubt in my mind that the loss of Seymour hurt us on the field of play. At the time I thought that it
                      might have been several factors such as leadership, salary room to redo Wilfork or possibly the value of a pick in
                      return for a line they thought had enough talent to do the job. I think his loss continued to impact us negatively all
                      year and the positive potentials from it never seemed to emerge.

                      So while I tried hard to justify it at the time, at the end of the season I find myself absolutely wishing we had kept
                      Seymour for this season. It's done and I'm mostly done with it htough I do count it against Bellichick the GM at this
                      point. I truly hope we make the most of tha tpick eventually because the cost was significant this year - how
                      significant we can never truly know.

                      Go Pats!
                      Zip
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