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Re: [patriotzip] Re: 1997 Defended

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  • RandyZ. Pierce
    It seems a bit like you took my part of the defense as a defense of Pete Carroll. He steadily lost his teams and had a sad but deserved end to his coaching
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
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      It seems a bit like you took my part of the defense as a defense of Pete Carroll.  He steadily lost his teams and had a sad but deserved end to his coaching career.  I defended the 1997 team which lost a Divisional playoff game by one point allowing only a single touchdown on defense.  That's not a collapse that is solid defensive football.
       
      Parcells Jets and the Dolphins were highly competitive opponents in those days and we were a top team in a top division with only Indy as a sub-par team.
       
      I think the true collapse came when Bledsoe was exposed for having too great a weakness and the Curtis Martin dependency was too great as well.  Martin allowed the team to escape with bledsoe's mobility weakness and the offensive over-emphasis on the pass.  When Martin was hurt and then lost to t he Jets the team had no effective answer to keep pressure off Bledsoe and end the once seeming dynamic offense.  Meanwhile Coates past his prime and the draft of Bobby Grier's regime speaks volumes.  Bellichick took that same team he got in 2000 from Bellichick and got worse as well with a 5-11 record which brought us Seymour and a renewed team the following season.  He really cleaned house though as our talent base had been entirely eroded through the late 90s.
       
      Go Pats!
      Zip
       
    • kmacalp@aol.com
      Hi Randy, I m not looking at a single loss, and saying that the single loss constitutes a collapse all by itself. I m looking at a 4-0 start, followed by a
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
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        Hi Randy,
         
        I'm not looking at a single loss, and saying that the single loss constitutes a collapse all by itself. I'm looking at a 4-0 start, followed by a 7-7 record the rest of the way. (6-6 in the regular season. 1-1 in the playoffs.) I'm looking at 14 games of mediocre football. That's the collapse, 4-0 (5-1 even) with easy, blowout wins, followed by .500 football.
         
        That's my point. I'm not saying the 97 team had no talent. They were loaded with talent. I'm not saying it didn't have good people. Some of my favorite players were on that team. My point is to say that Carroll and Ryan employ similar coaching styles (not press conference styles), and I think Carroll's approach had something to do with the late collapse pattern seen in all 4 seasons he was an NFL head coach.
         
        Yes, bad drafts and horrible cap management played a role so that the team was hamstrung on making quick improvements when Belichick came in. Belichick didn't just inherit a team in cap trouble and a few bad drafts though. I can't remember if I read it in Patriot Reign or The Blue Print, but when he came back, he inherited a team where half the players couldn't finish something which was a routine conditioning drill for Parcells's Jets, Pats, and Giants teams. Guys were off to the side vomiting, unable to finish the drill. Players had gotten used to lax rules and no discipline and some were beyond salvage in this area. So, Belichick had to tear down and clear out dead wood. It was a case of getting worse short term to get better long term. (Something Cleveland ownership, media, and fans fiercely resisted when Belichick attempted it there because they thought the aging players who'd just missed the Super Bowl a few times were still "just around the corner" from getting there.) The classic example is Jimmie Johnson's Dallas Cowboys. Johnson came in and cleaned house, got rid of big name players. The team went 1-15 his first year, but he set the foundation for 3 Super Bowl Championships. 
         
        I was heartbroken when that '97 team lost 7-6 too. I was aggravated by that long Kordell Stewart run which I recall as the key play of the game. But looking back at the big picture, I see it fits a pattern.
         
        Sincerely,
        Scott Sheaffer
      • the Shmoo
        Scott is quite correct in his assessment of these two coaches and their similar coaching styles. As for the analysis of the 97 team, numbers do not lie. He
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
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          Scott is quite correct in his assessment of these two coaches and their similar coaching styles. As for the analysis of the 97 team, numbers do not lie. He puts it out there in black & white. It would seem his argument is infallable.

          --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, kmacalp@... wrote:
          >
          > Hi Randy,
          >
          > I'm not looking at a single loss, and saying that the single loss
          > constitutes a collapse all by itself. I'm looking at a 4-0 start, followed by a 7-7
          > record the rest of the way. (6-6 in the regular season. 1-1 in the
          > playoffs.) I'm looking at 14 games of mediocre football. That's the collapse, 4-0
          > (5-1 even) with easy, blowout wins, followed by .500 football.
          >
          > That's my point. I'm not saying the 97 team had no talent. They were loaded
          > with talent. I'm not saying it didn't have good people. Some of my
          > favorite players were on that team. My point is to say that Carroll and Ryan
          > employ similar coaching styles (not press conference styles), and I think
          > Carroll's approach had something to do with the late collapse pattern seen in all
          > 4 seasons he was an NFL head coach.
          >
          > Yes, bad drafts and horrible cap management played a role so that the team
          > was hamstrung on making quick improvements when Belichick came in.
          > Belichick didn't just inherit a team in cap trouble and a few bad drafts though. I
          > can't remember if I read it in Patriot Reign or The Blue Print, but when
          > he came back, he inherited a team where half the players couldn't finish
          > something which was a routine conditioning drill for Parcells's Jets, Pats,
          > and Giants teams. Guys were off to the side vomiting, unable to finish the
          > drill. Players had gotten used to lax rules and no discipline and some were
          > beyond salvage in this area. So, Belichick had to tear down and clear out
          > dead wood. It was a case of getting worse short term to get better long term.
          > (Something Cleveland ownership, media, and fans fiercely resisted when
          > Belichick attempted it there because they thought the aging players who'd just
          > missed the Super Bowl a few times were still "just around the corner" from
          > getting there.) The classic example is Jimmie Johnson's Dallas Cowboys.
          > Johnson came in and cleaned house, got rid of big name players. The team went
          > 1-15 his first year, but he set the foundation for 3 Super Bowl
          > Championships.
          >
          > I was heartbroken when that '97 team lost 7-6 too. I was aggravated by that
          > long Kordell Stewart run which I recall as the key play of the game. But
          > looking back at the big picture, I see it fits a pattern.
          >
          > Sincerely,
          > Scott Sheaffer
          >
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