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Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

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  • Larry Lawrence
    Okay, here are my comments revised: Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long. Anyone still think he ll be taking us to the Super Bowl? Moss drops a TD
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 1, 2008
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      Okay, here are my comments revised:

      Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

      Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

      Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone.

      Matt Light phoned it in.

      13 unanswered points.

      The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

      We're tied with Miami.

      But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.

      Is everybody happy?

      --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@...> wrote:
      From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@...>
      Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
      To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM

      I had higher expectations for the team in that game than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for what makes worthwhile discussion on this list.  I speak specifically of the message attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from many folks who comprise the intent of this list.  I absolutely concur that Cassel threw the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way too many passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one on the team dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as well. 
       
      All of these can be expressed much more reasonably for this list than the choices made in this message below and I expect we will manage that in the future.  There are message boards which more fully welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for it.  We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going forward.
       
      The team is certainly not achieving what is within their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit closer to the goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations given the changes in this season.  The team lost in all facets of the game with Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits from my vantage.  Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a chip in there when that was going so awry multiple times. 
       
      Harrison was actually carted off the field at the end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the solid play for which he's been known for the last two seasons.  Talented Steeler players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the challenge at all.  While there are many moments of would have/could have/should have in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that woeful third quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three consecutive turnovers and very short fields.  Two of those three times they did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position in which they were placed.  That said they still had a less than quality day even noting they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.
       
      Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer edge with three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't mean guaranteed wins by any means.  We need all four...
       
      Go Pats!
      Zip
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41 AM
      Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky game.

      Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

      Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

      Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone. What an ass.

      Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.

      13 unanswered points.

      The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

      We're tied with Miami.

      We suck. We suck. We suck.



      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 12/1/2008 8:23 AM

    • Monty Rodrigues
      Wow ... just absolutely astute reasoning. ... From: Larry Lawrence Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain To:
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Wow ... just absolutely astute reasoning.

        --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Larry Lawrence <melarry001@...> wrote:
        From: Larry Lawrence <melarry001@...>
        Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
        To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 11:37 AM

        Okay, here are my comments revised:

        Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

        Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

        Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone.

        Matt Light phoned it in.

        13 unanswered points.

        The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

        We're tied with Miami.

        But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.

        Is everybody happy?

        --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@...> wrote:
        From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@...>
        Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
        To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM

        I had higher expectations for the team in that game than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for what makes worthwhile discussion on this list.  I speak specifically of the message attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from many folks who comprise the intent of this list.  I absolutely concur that Cassel threw the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way too many passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one on the team dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as well. 
         
        All of these can be expressed much more reasonably for this list than the choices made in this message below and I expect we will manage that in the future.  There are message boards which more fully welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for it.  We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going forward.
         
        The team is certainly not achieving what is within their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit closer to the goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations given the changes in this season.  The team lost in all facets of the game with Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits from my vantage.  Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a chip in there when that was going so awry multiple times. 
         
        Harrison was actually carted off the field at the end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the solid play for which he's been known for the last two seasons.  Talented Steeler players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the challenge at all.  While there are many moments of would have/could have/should have in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that woeful third quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three consecutive turnovers and very short fields.  Two of those three times they did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position in which they were placed.  That said they still had a less than quality day even noting they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.
         
        Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer edge with three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't mean guaranteed wins by any means.  We need all four...
         
        Go Pats!
        Zip
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41 AM
        Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky game.

        Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

        Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

        Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone. What an ass.

        Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.

        13 unanswered points.

        The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

        We're tied with Miami.

        We suck. We suck. We suck.



        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
        Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 12/1/2008 8:23 AM

      • John Knowles
        Actually, Larry, I liked your original comments better. I disagree with Randy on this one. When you suck, you suck. Must we really put lipstick on a pig and
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 1, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Actually, Larry, I liked your original comments better. I disagree with Randy on this one. When you suck, you suck. Must we really put lipstick on a pig and engage in some form of Orwellian doublethink to avoid the most obvious performance assessment? My, oh, my -- NEGATIVITY! -- why that's just NOT politically correct, is it? Let's all pretend that everything is hunky dory instead. Phrases like "we suck" should be changed to "we weren't quite as good as we often are." Furthermore, people who use phrases like "we suck" should be banished to re-education camps immediately. Then the angels will descend and our world will become a lovely place again.


          From: Larry Lawrence <melarry001@...>
          To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:37:10 AM
          Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

          Okay, here are my comments revised:

          Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

          Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

          Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone.

          Matt Light phoned it in.

          13 unanswered points.

          The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

          We're tied with Miami.

          But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.

          Is everybody happy?

          --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com> wrote:
          From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
          Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
          To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
          Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM

          I had higher expectations for the team in that game than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for what makes worthwhile discussion on this list.  I speak specifically of the message attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from many folks who comprise the intent of this list.  I absolutely concur that Cassel threw the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way too many passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one on the team dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as well. 
           
          All of these can be expressed much more reasonably for this list than the choices made in this message below and I expect we will manage that in the future.  There are message boards which more fully welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for it.  We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going forward.
           
          The team is certainly not achieving what is within their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit closer to the goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations given the changes in this season.  The team lost in all facets of the game with Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits from my vantage.  Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a chip in there when that was going so awry multiple times. 
           
          Harrison was actually carted off the field at the end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the solid play for which he's been known for the last two seasons.  Talented Steeler players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the challenge at all.  While there are many moments of would have/could have/should have in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that woeful third quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three consecutive turnovers and very short fields.  Two of those three times they did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position in which they were placed.  That said they still had a less than quality day even noting they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.
           
          Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer edge with three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't mean guaranteed wins by any means.  We need all four...
           
          Go Pats!
          Zip
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41 AM
          Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky game.

          Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

          Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

          Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone. What an ass.

          Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.

          13 unanswered points.

          The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

          We're tied with Miami.

          We suck. We suck. We suck.



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 12/1/2008 8:23 AM


        • jtravers001
          Ha! Your comments made me blow Diet Coke out my nose, John. For sure, we sucked yesterday. Or should I say we weren t quite as good as we often are -- using
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 1, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Ha! Your comments made me blow Diet Coke out my nose, John. For sure,
            we sucked yesterday. Or should I say "we weren't quite as good as we
            often are" -- using your more politically correct assessment. I agree,
            why not just call a spade a spade and move on. So what if we sucked?
            Some Sundays are like that. Others are not. No need to send in the PC
            police here. At least, not in my humble opinion.


            --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, John Knowles <johnknowles1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Actually, Larry, I liked your original comments better. I disagree
            with Randy on this one. When you suck, you suck. Must we really put
            lipstick on a pig and engage in some form of Orwellian doublethink to
            avoid the most obvious performance assessment? My, oh, my --
            NEGATIVITY! -- why that's just NOT politically correct, is it? Let's
            all pretend that everything is hunky dory instead. Phrases like "we
            suck" should be changed to "we weren't quite as good as we often are."
            Furthermore, people who use phrases like "we suck" should be banished
            to re-education camps immediately. Then the angels will descend and
            our world will become a lovely place again.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Larry Lawrence <melarry001@...>
            > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:37:10 AM
            > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
            >
            >
            > Okay, here are my comments revised:
            >
            > Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.
            >
            > Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?
            >
            > Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone.
            >
            > Matt Light phoned it in.
            >
            > 13 unanswered points.
            >
            > The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.
            >
            > We're tied with Miami.
            >
            > But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.
            >
            > Is everybody happy?
            >
            > --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com> wrote:
            >
            > From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
            > Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
            > To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
            > Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM
            >
            >
            > I had higher expectations for the team in that game
            > than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for
            what makes
            > worthwhile discussion on this list. I speak specifically of the
            message
            > attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from
            many folks who
            > comprise the intent of this list. I absolutely concur that Cassel
            threw
            > the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way
            too many
            > passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one
            on the team
            > dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as
            well.
            >
            > All of these can be expressed much more reasonably
            > for this list than the choices made in this message below and I
            expect we will
            > manage that in the future. There are message boards which more fully
            > welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for
            it.
            > We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going
            > forward.
            >
            > The team is certainly not achieving what is within
            > their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit
            closer to the
            > goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations
            given the
            > changes in this season. The team lost in all facets of the game with
            > Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits
            from my
            > vantage. Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being
            > overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a
            chip in there
            > when that was going so awry multiple times.
            >
            > Harrison was actually carted off the field at the
            > end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the
            solid play
            > for which he's been known for the last two seasons. Talented Steeler
            > players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the
            challenge
            > at all. While there are many moments of would have/could
            have/should have
            > in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that
            woeful third
            > quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three
            > consecutive turnovers and very short fields. Two of those three
            times they
            > did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position
            in which they
            > were placed. That said they still had a less than quality day even
            noting
            > they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first
            > touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.
            >
            > Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out
            > to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer
            edge with
            > three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't
            mean
            > guaranteed wins by any means. We need all four...
            >
            > Go Pats!
            > Zip
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: melarry001
            > To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
            > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41 AM
            > Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky game.
            >
            > Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.
            >
            > Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?
            >
            > Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone. What an ass.
            >
            > Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.
            >
            > 13 unanswered points.
            >
            > The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.
            >
            > We're tied with Miami.
            >
            > We suck. We suck. We suck.
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
            > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date:
            12/1/2008 8:23 AM
            >
          • RandyZ. Pierce
            You are entirely and quite mistakenly under several woefully misguided impressions. The first is that I have a problem with the use of the term We suck
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 1, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              You are entirely and quite mistakenly under several  woefully misguided impressions.  The first is that I have a problem with the use of the term "We suck" which I'm happy to use and have no overly exagerated since of PC baggage which impacts my use or appreciation of it.  However when the sum total of your sharing is little more than  what you have offerred - it simply doesn't have the merit to be worth effectively spamming this list to receive.  This list was created for quality discussion which that isn't.  I don't necessarily share the views of many folks on this list but I value their ability to discuss it and make it worthwhile.  If someone in various alias versions or alone which to simply spam with pride their ability to say we suck then all the power to them  - but ultimately it won't be done here on this list as it it doesn't have enough merit to be worth the aggravation for such little addition. 
               
              This is a private list with a goal and if that goal isn't the type of conversation you want than you are encouraged to go find it on the many places where it does exist for you. I support the right of tons of things I don't like to exist but I don't have to allow them into my home or onto a list I created for a purpose contrary to what some folks include. 
               
               
              So while I was amused by the lipstick on a pig comparison and do feel it was an ugly loss, I can discuss what was good and or bad and respond to points without simply repeating my base assertion and throwing out sarcastic aspects which are unrelated to any real response. 
               
              Our chance of success this year is bleak at best and folks are pretty well aware of that.  Pointing out the fact that at 7-5 we are far from the bottom of the league was not my suggestion we are a lock for the Superbowl.  Larry's counter was simply part of the approach which along with the redundancy made the second post little better than the first and worse for the thinly veiled intent.
               
              This list is intended to be discussion and a friendly community - when someone or someones wish to be belligerently and clearly intent to break from that I'll politely ask them to leave with the handy remove feature of private lists after a brief attempt to give them the opportunity to choose they want to be a part of the list on the nature of it's intent.  If the list doesn't fit that for you then you are welcome to remove yourself and find what does fit you but ultimately I won't bat an eye at the non-PC outcry of my censoring you from my private list. 
               
              Go Pats!
              Zip
                
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 11:53 AM
              Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

              Actually, Larry, I liked your original comments better. I disagree with Randy on this one. When you suck, you suck. Must we really put lipstick on a pig and engage in some form of Orwellian doublethink to avoid the most obvious performance assessment? My, oh, my -- NEGATIVITY! -- why that's just NOT politically correct, is it? Let's all pretend that everything is hunky dory instead. Phrases like "we suck" should be changed to "we weren't quite as good as we often are." Furthermore, people who use phrases like "we suck" should be banished to re-education camps immediately. Then the angels will descend and our world will become a lovely place again.


              From: Larry Lawrence <melarry001@yahoo. com>
              To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
              Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:37:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

              Okay, here are my comments revised:

              Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

              Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

              Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone.

              Matt Light phoned it in.

              13 unanswered points.

              The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

              We're tied with Miami.

              But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.

              Is everybody happy?

              --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com> wrote:
              From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
              Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
              To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM

              I had higher expectations for the team in that game than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for what makes worthwhile discussion on this list.  I speak specifically of the message attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from many folks who comprise the intent of this list.  I absolutely concur that Cassel threw the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way too many passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one on the team dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as well. 
               
              All of these can be expressed much more reasonably for this list than the choices made in this message below and I expect we will manage that in the future.  There are message boards which more fully welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for it.  We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going forward.
               
              The team is certainly not achieving what is within their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit closer to the goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations given the changes in this season.  The team lost in all facets of the game with Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits from my vantage.  Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a chip in there when that was going so awry multiple times. 
               
              Harrison was actually carted off the field at the end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the solid play for which he's been known for the last two seasons.  Talented Steeler players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the challenge at all.  While there are many moments of would have/could have/should have in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that woeful third quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three consecutive turnovers and very short fields.  Two of those three times they did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position in which they were placed.  That said they still had a less than quality day even noting they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.
               
              Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer edge with three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't mean guaranteed wins by any means.  We need all four...
               
              Go Pats!
              Zip
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41 AM
              Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky game.

              Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

              Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

              Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone. What an ass.

              Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.

              13 unanswered points.

              The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

              We're tied with Miami.

              We suck. We suck. We suck.



              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
              Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 12/1/2008 8:23 AM




              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
              Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 12/1/2008 8:23 AM
            • John Knowles
              ________________________________ Randy, it appears you re accusing Larry of not backing up his we suck assessment with hard facts concerning why, when, in
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 1, 2008
              • 0 Attachment



                Randy, i
                t appears you're accusing Larry of not backing up his "we suck" assessment with hard facts concerning why, when, in fact, he did just that. Upon re-reading his post, in my opinion, he cut right to the chase with three key reasons why (ie: Cassel throwing behind his receivers all day long, Moss dropping a TD alone in the end zone, and Matt Light phoning it in.) Then he went on to lament the fact that we left 13 points unanswered, the Jets lost but stayed a game ahead, and that we're tied with Miami, of all people. His assessment, however brief and to the point, was quite accurate in every respect. I would suggest to you that not everybody needs five paragraphs to communicate. In fact, I tend to read more posts that get right to it.

                As for me, I'm just defending John because I am SO fed up with the amount of political correctness in the world today. And now it's seeping into football. Like the fact that you can't "cheer to loudly" at Gillette or you'll get tossed out now. So when I see it seeping into this list, well... it continues to make me crazy. And I think that's understandable.

                PS: I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say, "If someone in various alias versions or alone which to simply spam...etc." What are you saying there?


                From:
                RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@...>
                To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 1:36:40 PM
                Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

                You are entirely and quite mistakenly under several  woefully misguided impressions.  The first is that I have a problem with the use of the term "We suck" which I'm happy to use and have no overly exagerated since of PC baggage which impacts my use or appreciation of it.  However when the sum total of your sharing is little more than  what you have offerred - it simply doesn't have the merit to be worth effectively spamming this list to receive.  This list was created for quality discussion which that isn't.  I don't necessarily share the views of many folks on this list but I value their ability to discuss it and make it worthwhile.  If someone in various alias versions or alone which to simply spam with pride their ability to say we suck then all the power to them  - but ultimately it won't be done here on this list as it it doesn't have enough merit to be worth the aggravation for such little addition. 
                 
                This is a private list with a goal and if that goal isn't the type of conversation you want than you are encouraged to go find it on the many places where it does exist for you. I support the right of tons of things I don't like to exist but I don't have to allow them into my home or onto a list I created for a purpose contrary to what some folks include. 
                 
                 
                So while I was amused by the lipstick on a pig comparison and do feel it was an ugly loss, I can discuss what was good and or bad and respond to points without simply repeating my base assertion and throwing out sarcastic aspects which are unrelated to any real response. 
                 
                Our chance of success this year is bleak at best and folks are pretty well aware of that.  Pointing out the fact that at 7-5 we are far from the bottom of the league was not my suggestion we are a lock for the Superbowl.  Larry's counter was simply part of the approach which along with the redundancy made the second post little better than the first and worse for the thinly veiled intent.
                 
                This list is intended to be discussion and a friendly community - when someone or someones wish to be belligerently and clearly intent to break from that I'll politely ask them to leave with the handy remove feature of private lists after a brief attempt to give them the opportunity to choose they want to be a part of the list on the nature of it's intent.  If the list doesn't fit that for you then you are welcome to remove yourself and find what does fit you but ultimately I won't bat an eye at the non-PC outcry of my censoring you from my private list. 
                 
                Go Pats!
                Zip
                  
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 11:53 AM
                Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

                Actually, Larry, I liked your original comments better. I disagree with Randy on this one. When you suck, you suck. Must we really put lipstick on a pig and engage in some form of Orwellian doublethink to avoid the most obvious performance assessment? My, oh, my -- NEGATIVITY! -- why that's just NOT politically correct, is it? Let's all pretend that everything is hunky dory instead. Phrases like "we suck" should be changed to "we weren't quite as good as we often are." Furthermore, people who use phrases like "we suck" should be banished to re-education camps immediately. Then the angels will descend and our world will become a lovely place again.


                From: Larry Lawrence <melarry001@yahoo. com>
                To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:37:10 AM
                Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

                Okay, here are my comments revised:

                Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

                Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

                Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone.

                Matt Light phoned it in.

                13 unanswered points.

                The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

                We're tied with Miami.

                But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.

                Is everybody happy?

                --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com> wrote:
                From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
                To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM

                I had higher expectations for the team in that game than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for what makes worthwhile discussion on this list.  I speak specifically of the message attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from many folks who comprise the intent of this list.  I absolutely concur that Cassel threw the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way too many passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one on the team dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as well. 
                 
                All of these can be expressed much more reasonably for this list than the choices made in this message below and I expect we will manage that in the future.  There are message boards which more fully welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for it.  We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going forward.
                 
                The team is certainly not achieving what is within their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit closer to the goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations given the changes in this season.  The team lost in all facets of the game with Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits from my vantage.  Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a chip in there when that was going so awry multiple times. 
                 
                Harrison was actually carted off the field at the end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the solid play for which he's been known for the last two seasons.  Talented Steeler players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the challenge at all.  While there are many moments of would have/could have/should have in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that woeful third quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three consecutive turnovers and very short fields.  Two of those three times they did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position in which they were placed.  That said they still had a less than quality day even noting they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.
                 
                Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer edge with three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't mean guaranteed wins by any means.  We need all four...
                 
                Go Pats!
                Zip
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41 AM
                Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky game.

                Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

                Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

                Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone. What an ass.

                Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.

                13 unanswered points.

                The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

                We're tied with Miami.

                We suck. We suck. We suck.



                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
                Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 12/1/2008 8:23 AM




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              • Laureen Mazalewski Modder
                I think the point was more around why people read the list. This list has historically been a place where fans come together to break down games good and bad
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 1, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think the point was more around why people read the list.  This list has historically been a place where fans come together to break down games good and bad and analyze them, while looking forward to next week's match up.  We've been blessed the last few years, but I hope not to the point where we've lost the overall ability to evaluate play, play GM, strategize next week, etc.
                   
                  Not everyone wants to hear "we suck, lets move on" after every loss.  We've had a good few years and at some point, our wins and losses were due to even out.  Only discussing wins isn't what this list has been in the past and I hope isn't what it's turning into.  If you need to vent a 'we suck' and have no discussion around it, I'm sure there are plenty of venues for that.
                   
                  - L




                  To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                  From: jtravers001@...
                  Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:35:21 +0000
                  Subject: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain


                  Ha! Your comments made me blow Diet Coke out my nose, John. For sure,
                  we sucked yesterday. Or should I say "we weren't quite as good as we
                  often are" -- using your more politically correct assessment. I agree,
                  why not just call a spade a spade and move on. So what if we sucked?
                  Some Sundays are like that. Others are not. No need to send in the PC
                  police here. At least, not in my humble opinion.

                  --- In patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com, John Knowles <johnknowles1@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Actually, Larry, I liked your original comments better. I disagree
                  with Randy on this one. When you suck, you suck. Must we really put
                  lipstick on a pig and engage in some form of Orwellian doublethink to
                  avoid the most obvious performance assessment? My, oh, my --
                  NEGATIVITY! -- why that's just NOT politically correct, is it? Let's
                  all pretend that everything is hunky dory instead. Phrases like "we
                  suck" should be changed to "we weren't quite as good as we often are."
                  Furthermore, people who use phrases like "we suck" should be banished
                  to re-education camps immediately. Then the angels will descend and
                  our world will become a lovely place again.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > From: Larry Lawrence <melarry001@ ...>
                  > To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:37:10 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
                  >
                  >
                  > Okay, here are my comments revised:
                  >
                  > Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.
                  >
                  > Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?
                  >
                  > Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone.
                  >
                  > Matt Light phoned it in.
                  >
                  > 13 unanswered points.
                  >
                  > The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.
                  >
                  > We're tied with Miami.
                  >
                  > But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.
                  >
                  > Is everybody happy?
                  >
                  > --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                  > Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
                  > To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM
                  >
                  >
                  > I had higher expectations for the team in that game
                  > than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for
                  what makes
                  > worthwhile discussion on this list. I speak specifically of the
                  message
                  > attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from
                  many folks who
                  > comprise the intent of this list. I absolutely concur that Cassel
                  threw
                  > the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way
                  too many
                  > passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one
                  on the team
                  > dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as
                  well.
                  >
                  > All of these can be expressed much more reasonably
                  > for this list than the choices made in this message below and I
                  expect we will
                  > manage that in the future. There are message boards which more fully
                  > welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for
                  it.
                  > We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going
                  > forward.
                  >
                  > The team is certainly not achieving what is within
                  > their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit
                  closer to the
                  > goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations
                  given the
                  > changes in this season. The team lost in all facets of the game with
                  > Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits
                  from my
                  > vantage. Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being
                  > overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a
                  chip in there
                  > when that was going so awry multiple times.
                  >
                  > Harrison was actually carted off the field at the
                  > end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the
                  solid play
                  > for which he's been known for the last two seasons. Talented Steeler
                  > players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the
                  challenge
                  > at all. While there are many moments of would have/could
                  have/should have
                  > in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that
                  woeful third
                  > quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three
                  > consecutive turnovers and very short fields. Two of those three
                  times they
                  > did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position
                  in which they
                  > were placed. That said they still had a less than quality day even
                  noting
                  > they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first
                  > touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.
                  >
                  > Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out
                  > to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer
                  edge with
                  > three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't
                  mean
                  > guaranteed wins by any means. We need all four...
                  >
                  > Go Pats!
                  > Zip
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: melarry001
                  > To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41 AM
                  > Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky game.
                  >
                  > Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.
                  >
                  > Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?
                  >
                  > Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone. What an ass.
                  >
                  > Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.
                  >
                  > 13 unanswered points.
                  >
                  > The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.
                  >
                  > We're tied with Miami.
                  >
                  > We suck. We suck. We suck.
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  >
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
                  > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date:
                  12/1/2008 8:23 AM
                  >





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                • George
                  *****John, I say this with no malicious intent at all, but simply as a statement of fact. You, and others, may disagree with the parameters that Randy has
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 1, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    *****John, I say this with no malicious intent at all, but simply as a statement of fact. You, and others, may disagree with the parameters that Randy has defined for discussion on this list. The fact remains that, as he said, it IS a PRIVATE LIST. As such, he, as the creator of this list, has the prerogative to set whatever rules he wants, within the limits of Yahoo's rules. If he wanted to restrict conversation to nothing but comments about the concession stands in Gillette Stadium, he could do so.
                     
                    ***** Randy's personality is such that he prefers to engage in more analytical, less emotional, discussions; whether with positive or negative comments about the team. He asks that the participants here respect those preferences. So those who choose to participate here should recognize the character of the list, as defined by it's host; and either accept, and adhere to, that spirit, or choose not to participate. There's no anger or insult intended there. Just fact.
                     

                    George

                     

                     
                     


                    From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Knowles
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:03 AM
                    To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain




                    Randy, i
                    t appears you're accusing Larry of not backing up his "we suck" assessment with hard facts concerning why, when, in fact, he did just that. Upon re-reading his post, in my opinion, he cut right to the chase with three key reasons why (ie: Cassel throwing behind his receivers all day long, Moss dropping a TD alone in the end zone, and Matt Light phoning it in.) Then he went on to lament the fact that we left 13 points unanswered, the Jets lost but stayed a game ahead, and that we're tied with Miami, of all people. His assessment, however brief and to the point, was quite accurate in every respect. I would suggest to you that not everybody needs five paragraphs to communicate. In fact, I tend to read more posts that get right to it.

                    As for me, I'm just defending John because I am SO fed up with the amount of political correctness in the world today. And now it's seeping into football. Like the fact that you can't "cheer to loudly" at Gillette or you'll get tossed out now. So when I see it seeping into this list, well... it continues to make me crazy. And I think that's understandable.

                    PS: I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say, "If someone in various alias versions or alone which to simply spam...etc." What are you saying there?


                    From:
                    RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                    To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                    Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 1:36:40 PM
                    Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

                    You are entirely and quite mistakenly under several  woefully misguided impressions.  The first is that I have a problem with the use of the term "We suck" which I'm happy to use and have no overly exagerated since of PC baggage which impacts my use or appreciation of it.  However when the sum total of your sharing is little more than  what you have offerred - it simply doesn't have the merit to be worth effectively spamming this list to receive.  This list was created for quality discussion which that isn't.  I don't necessarily share the views of many folks on this list but I value their ability to discuss it and make it worthwhile.  If someone in various alias versions or alone which to simply spam with pride their ability to say we suck then all the power to them  - but ultimately it won't be done here on this list as it it doesn't have enough merit to be worth the aggravation for such little addition. 
                     
                    This is a private list with a goal and if that goal isn't the type of conversation you want than you are encouraged to go find it on the many places where it does exist for you. I support the right of tons of things I don't like to exist but I don't have to allow them into my home or onto a list I created for a purpose contrary to what some folks include. 
                     
                     
                    So while I was amused by the lipstick on a pig comparison and do feel it was an ugly loss, I can discuss what was good and or bad and respond to points without simply repeating my base assertion and throwing out sarcastic aspects which are unrelated to any real response. 
                     
                    Our chance of success this year is bleak at best and folks are pretty well aware of that.  Pointing out the fact that at 7-5 we are far from the bottom of the league was not my suggestion we are a lock for the Superbowl.  Larry's counter was simply part of the approach which along with the redundancy made the second post little better than the first and worse for the thinly veiled intent.
                     
                    This list is intended to be discussion and a friendly community - when someone or someones wish to be belligerently and clearly intent to break from that I'll politely ask them to leave with the handy remove feature of private lists after a brief attempt to give them the opportunity to choose they want to be a part of the list on the nature of it's intent.  If the list doesn't fit that for you then you are welcome to remove yourself and find what does fit you but ultimately I won't bat an eye at the non-PC outcry of my censoring you from my private list. 
                     
                    Go Pats!
                    Zip
                      
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 11:53 AM
                    Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

                    Actually, Larry, I liked your original comments better. I disagree with Randy on this one. When you suck, you suck. Must we really put lipstick on a pig and engage in some form of Orwellian doublethink to avoid the most obvious performance assessment? My, oh, my -- NEGATIVITY! -- why that's just NOT politically correct, is it? Let's all pretend that everything is hunky dory instead. Phrases like "we suck" should be changed to "we weren't quite as good as we often are." Furthermore, people who use phrases like "we suck" should be banished to re-education camps immediately. Then the angels will descend and our world will become a lovely place again.


                    From: Larry Lawrence <melarry001@yahoo. com>
                    To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                    Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:37:10 AM
                    Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

                    Okay, here are my comments revised:

                    Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

                    Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

                    Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone.

                    Matt Light phoned it in.

                    13 unanswered points.

                    The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

                    We're tied with Miami.

                    But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.

                    Is everybody happy?

                    --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com> wrote:
                    From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                    Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
                    To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                    Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM

                    I had higher expectations for the team in that game than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for what makes worthwhile discussion on this list.  I speak specifically of the message attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from many folks who comprise the intent of this list.  I absolutely concur that Cassel threw the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way too many passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one on the team dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as well. 
                     
                    All of these can be expressed much more reasonably for this list than the choices made in this message below and I expect we will manage that in the future.  There are message boards which more fully welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for it.  We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going forward.
                     
                    The team is certainly not achieving what is within their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit closer to the goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations given the changes in this season.  The team lost in all facets of the game with Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits from my vantage.  Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a chip in there when that was going so awry multiple times. 
                     
                    Harrison was actually carted off the field at the end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the solid play for which he's been known for the last two seasons.  Talented Steeler players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the challenge at all.  While there are many moments of would have/could have/should have in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that woeful third quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three consecutive turnovers and very short fields.  Two of those three times they did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position in which they were placed.  That said they still had a less than quality day even noting they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.
                     
                    Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer edge with three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't mean guaranteed wins by any means.  We need all four...
                     
                    Go Pats!
                    Zip
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41 AM
                    Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky game.

                    Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

                    Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

                    Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone. What an ass.

                    Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.

                    13 unanswered points.

                    The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

                    We're tied with Miami.

                    We suck. We suck. We suck.



                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
                    Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 12/1/2008 8:23 AM




                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
                    Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 12/1/2008 8:23 AM

                  • llj7366@aol.com
                    I have enjoyed reading this list for years now and I have made minimal contribution but I am so tired of all of the negativity.? I was not happy with the
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I have enjoyed reading this list for years now and I have made minimal contribution but I am so tired of all of the negativity.  I was not happy with the performance on Sunday but to lump our team in and say "we suck" just seems juvenile.  We had a bad game against the #1 defense in the NFL.  I am not sure what everyone is expecting but our team is not the same team that it has been the past couple of years.  Cassel is learning and getting better, in my opinion.  He did not play well against the #1 defense.  I honestly did not have high expectations.  He has only started a handful of games. 
                      I think what I will do from now on is just delete most of these posts instead of reading them after we lose because the "we suck" mentality really is getting old.  Jumping on and off the bandwagon is not really what this particular place is about.  I am not saying that we can't be frustrated but it is all in how it is presented.  And it is really too bad as it seems this place is turning into attacking one another and just complaining.  Nothing constructive is coming out of these posts.  (in my opinion)  I am not enjoying reading the list anymore.
                      Mrs. L. Johnson


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: John Knowles <johnknowles1@...>
                      To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 3:02 pm
                      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain




                      Randy, i
                      t appears you're accusing Larry of not backing up his "we suck" assessment with hard facts concerning why, when, in fact, he did just that. Upon re-reading his post, in my opinion, he cut right to the chase with three key reasons why (ie: Cassel throwing behind his receivers all day long, Moss dropping a TD alone in the end zone, and Matt Light phoning it in.) Then he went on to lament the fact that we left 13 points unanswered, the Jets lost but stayed a game ahead, and that we're tied with Miami, of all people. His assessment, however brief and to the point, was quite accurate in every respect. I would suggest to you that not everybody needs five paragraphs to communicate. In fact, I tend to read more posts that get right to it.

                      As for me, I'm just defending John because I am SO fed up with the amount of political correctness in the world today. And now it's seeping into football. Like the fact that you can't "cheer to loudly" at Gillette or you'll get tossed out now. So when I see it seeping into this list, well... it continues to make me crazy. And I think that's understandable.

                      PS: I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say, "If someone in various alias versions or alone which to simply spam...etc." What are you saying there?


                      From:
                      RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                      To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                      Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 1:36:40 PM
                      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

                      You are entirely and quite mistakenly under several  woefully misguided impressions.  The first is that I have a problem with the use of the term "We suck" which I'm happy to use and have no overly exagerated since of PC baggage which impacts my use or appreciation of it.  However when the sum total of your sharing is little more than  what you have offerred - it simply doesn't have the merit to be worth effectively spamming this list to receive.  This list was created for quality discussion which that isn't.  I don't necessarily share the views of many folks on this list but I value their ability to discuss it and make it worthwhile.  If someone in various alias versions or alone which to simply spam with pride their ability to say we suck then all the power to them  - but ultimately it won't be done here on this list as it it doesn't have enough merit to be worth the aggravation for such little addition. 
                       
                      This is a private list with a goal and if that goal isn't the type of conversation you want than you are encouraged to go find it on the many places where it does exist for you. I support the right of tons of things I don't like to exist but I don't have to allow them into my home or onto a list I created for a purpose contrary to what some folks include. 
                       
                       
                      So while I was amused by the lipstick on a pig comparison and do feel it was an ugly loss, I can discuss what was good and or bad and respond to points without simply repeating my base assertion and throwing out sarcastic aspects which are unrelated to any real response. 
                       
                      Our chance of success this year is bleak at best and folks are pretty well aware of that.  Pointing out the fact that at 7-5 we are far from the bottom of the league was not my suggestion we are a lock for the Superbowl.  Larry's counter was simply part of the approach which along with the redundancy made the second post little better than the first and worse for the thinly veiled intent.
                       
                      This list is intended to be discussion and a friendly community - when someone or someones wish to be belligerently and clearly intent to break from that I'll politely ask them to leave with the handy remove feature of private lists after a brief attempt to give them the opportunity to choose they want to be a part of the list on the nature of it's intent.  If the list doesn't fit that for you then you are welcome to remove yourself and find what does fit you but ultimately I won't bat an eye at the non-PC outcry of my censoring you from my private list. 
                       
                      Go Pats!
                      Zip
                        
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 11:53 AM
                      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

                      Actually, Larry, I liked your original comments better. I disagree with Randy on this one. When you suck, you suck. Must we really put lipstick on a pig and engage in some form of Orwellian doublethink to avoid the most obvious performance assessment? My, oh, my -- NEGATIVITY! -- why that's just NOT politically correct, is it? Let's all pretend that everything is hunky dory instead. Phrases like "we suck" should be changed to "we weren't quite as good as we often are." Furthermore, people who use phrases like "we suck" should be banished to re-education camps immediately. Then the angels will descend and our world will become a lovely place again.


                      From: Larry Lawrence <melarry001@yahoo. com>
                      To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                      Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:37:10 AM
                      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain

                      Okay, here are my comments revised:

                      Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

                      Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

                      Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone.

                      Matt Light phoned it in.

                      13 unanswered points.

                      The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

                      We're tied with Miami.

                      But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.

                      Is everybody happy?

                      --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com> wrote:
                      From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                      Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
                      To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                      Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM

                      I had higher expectations for the team in that game than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for what makes worthwhile discussion on this list.  I speak specifically of the message attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from many folks who comprise the intent of this list.  I absolutely concur that Cassel threw the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way too many passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one on the team dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as well. 
                       
                      All of these can be expressed much more reasonably for this list than the choices made in this message below and I expect we will manage that in the future.  There are message boards which more fully welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for it.  We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going forward.
                       
                      The team is certainly not achieving what is within their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit closer to the goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations given the changes in this season.  The team lost in all facets of the game with Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits from my vantage.  Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a chip in there when that was going so awry multiple times. 
                       
                      Harrison was actually carted off the field at the end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the solid play for which he's been known for the last two seasons.  Talented Steeler players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the challenge at all.  While there are many moments of would have/could have/should have in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that woeful third quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three consecutive turnovers and very short fields.  Two of those three times they did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position in which they were placed.  That said they still had a less than quality day even noting they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.
                       
                      Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer edge with three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't mean guaranteed wins by any means.  We need all four...
                       
                      Go Pats!
                      Zip
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41 AM
                      Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky game.

                      Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.

                      Anyone still think he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?

                      Moss drops a TD alone in the end zone. What an ass.

                      Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.

                      13 unanswered points.

                      The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.

                      We're tied with Miami.

                      We suck. We suck. We suck.



                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
                      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 12/1/2008 8:23 AM




                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
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                    • Mike Benson
                      I, too, find you re comments perceptive and funny, John. However, you can trust me when I say that the people on this list are genuinely nice, well-intentioned
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I, too, find you're comments perceptive and funny, John. However, you can trust me when I say that the people on this list are genuinely nice, well-intentioned folks for the most part. Just a little thin-skinned now and then. I've run into my share of it too. I was once found guilty of admiring the Tyree catch as an exceptional athletic feat. Thought I'd be skinned alive.

                        Personally, I have no problem with saying "we suck" after a game as ugly as yesterday simply because we did. However, I think it would be appreciated if whoever it is who points out the obvious always gave us a little more insight than just "we suck." In this case, I think Larry DID give us a short but painful litany explaining why. So I don't think he should be demonized. I think of him as one of many fans at Gillette yesterday who leaped to their feet and yelled "You suck!" when Moss dropped an easy TD pass. Or did likewise for any of the other mishaps Larry mentioned.


                        From: jtravers001 <jtravers001@...>
                        To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 1:35:21 PM
                        Subject: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                        Ha! Your comments made me blow Diet Coke out my nose, John. For sure,
                        we sucked yesterday. Or should I say "we weren't quite as good as we
                        often are" -- using your more politically correct assessment. I agree,
                        why not just call a spade a spade and move on. So what if we sucked?
                        Some Sundays are like that. Others are not. No need to send in the PC
                        police here. At least, not in my humble opinion.


                        --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, John Knowles <johnknowles1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Actually, Larry, I liked your original comments better. I disagree
                        with Randy on this one. When you suck, you suck. Must we really put
                        lipstick on a pig and engage in some form of Orwellian doublethink to
                        avoid the most obvious performance assessment? My, oh, my --
                        NEGATIVITY! -- why that's just NOT politically correct, is it? Let's
                        all pretend that everything is hunky dory instead. Phrases like "we
                        suck" should be changed to "we weren't quite as good as we often are."
                        Furthermore, people who use phrases like "we suck" should be banished
                        to re-education camps immediately. Then the angels will descend and
                        our world will become a lovely place again.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Larry Lawrence <melarry001@...>
                        > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:37:10 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
                        >
                        >
                        > Okay, here are my comments revised:
                        >
                        > Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.
                        >
                        > Anyone still think  he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?
                        >
                        > Moss drops a TD alone in the end  zone.
                        >
                        > Matt Light phoned it in.
                        >
                        > 13  unanswered points.
                        >
                        > The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.
                        >
                        > We're  tied with Miami.
                        >
                        > But we don't suck. We're going to the Super Bowl.
                        >
                        > Is everybody happy?
                        >
                        > --- On Mon, 12/1/08, RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                        > Subject: [patriotzip] Tough Game for Certain
                        > To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                        > Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:42 PM
                        >
                        >
                        > I had higher expectations for the team in that game
                        > than their performance and I have similarly higher expectations for
                        what makes
                        > worthwhile discussion on this list.  I speak specifically of the
                        message
                        > attached below as there was some quality discussion on here from
                        many folks who
                        > comprise the intent of this list.  I absolutely concur that Cassel
                        threw
                        > the ball behind folks a bit more than usual, that Moss drpped way
                        too many
                        > passes that would have made a difference and he wasn't the only one
                        on the team
                        > dropping balls as Gaffney and Watson each added a key mishandling as
                        well. 

                        > All of these can be expressed much more reasonably
                        > for this list than the choices made in this message below and I
                        expect we will
                        > manage that in the future.  There are message boards which more fully
                        > welcome simple 'we suck' analysis' and this board isn't intended for
                        it. 
                        > We had it during my week away a bit and it won't last long here going
                        > forward.

                        > The team is certainly not achieving what is within
                        > their reach though they have come a long way and are a fair bit
                        closer to the
                        > goals than many years of this franchise and beyond many expectations
                        given the
                        > changes in this season.  The team lost in all facets of the game with
                        > Special teams and offensive turnovers being the largest culprits
                        from my
                        > vantage.  Light certainly deserved a fair bit of discredit for being
                        > overmatched by Harrison and the coaching staff for not getting a
                        chip in there
                        > when that was going so awry multiple times.

                        > Harrison was actually carted off the field at the
                        > end of the first half and made a nice recovery for himself with the
                        solid play
                        > for which he's been known for the last two seasons.  Talented Steeler
                        > players put it to us in the second half and we didn't rise up to the
                        challenge
                        > at all.  While there are many moments of would have/could
                        have/should have
                        > in this one, the only reality positive I noted is that in that
                        woeful third
                        > quarter our defense after giving up a long TD drive got hit with three
                        > consecutive turnovers and very short fields.  Two of those three
                        times they
                        > did ultimately hold them to field goals despite the lousy position
                        in which they
                        > were placed.  That said they still had a less than quality day even
                        noting
                        > they had a respectable first half and set up our offense with the first
                        > touchdown that had so much hope infused into the game.

                        > Destiny is now out of our hands and we must win out
                        > to have any reasonable shot at playoffs but we remain on that outer
                        edge with
                        > three of our four remaining games being fairly soft...which doesn't
                        mean
                        > guaranteed wins by any means.  We need all four...

                        > Go Pats!
                        > Zip
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: melarry001
                        > To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:41  AM
                        > Subject: [patriotzip] Whatta sucky, sucky  game.
                        >
                        > Cassel throws behind his receivers all day long.
                        >
                        > Anyone still think  he'll be taking us to the Super Bowl?
                        >
                        > Moss drops a TD alone in the end  zone. What an ass.
                        >
                        > Matt Light phoned it in. He blows.
                        >
                        > 13  unanswered points.
                        >
                        > The Jets lose and stay a game ahead.
                        >
                        > We're  tied with Miami.
                        >
                        > We suck. We suck. We suck.
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________

                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG -  http://www.avg. com
                        > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 -  Release Date:
                        12/1/2008 8:23 AM
                        >



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                      • RandyZ. Pierce
                        Part of the point in the notion of we suck is this: we don t actually suck. At 7-5 the facts stand clear that we do not suck. We may have sucked
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Part of the point in the notion of 'we suck' is this:  we don't actually suck.  At 7-5 the facts stand clear that we do not suck.  We may have 'sucked' yesterday but that doesn't validate the generality.  Similarly, Moss droped a TD - he's an ass isn't connecting.  He's not an ass because he dropped the pass - it's frustrating and whether it's concentration, talent or weather intolerance the fact is whether Moss' behaviour qualifies him for 'assness' is separate from the pass dropping.  This tends to make these statements inaccurate and for me as a fan the inaccurate and base insulting of 'my' team is something that frustrates me.  In the days of open message boards this list would have an impressive amount of what were likely immature at best folks just making degrading commentary.  This drives away the folks who want to just talk about the football and whether harsh, concise or verbose - that's what this list hopes to achieve and sustain.
                           
                          I was frustrated at Moss, Gaffney, Watson, Cassel, Dealtha and a host of others at various times as well.  Our second half performance was ...well summed up with sucky.  We'd show some signs of life and then self destruct with some of that belonging to the talent of the Steelers and some being our own ineptitude on this day. 
                           
                           
                          Go Pats!
                          Zip
                           
                           
                           
                        • Mike Benson
                          I agree with you, Randy, in that we suck comments are usually born out of a bang-your-head-against-the-wall level of frustration. Deep, deep frustration.
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 2, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I agree with you, Randy, in that "we suck" comments are usually born out of a bang-your-head-against-the-wall level of frustration. Deep, deep frustration. We're not fans who are used to losing. In fact, it's been a pretty long while since we've had a season like this and it's pretty darn hard to float back down to earth and play like mere mortals again. Furthering this frustration, at least for me, is that I think that all the great progress Cassel has made this season will be all for naught. Because he'll be a free agent next season and will no longer settle for a number 2 slot. Unfortunately, we're going to have to part company with him whatever this season brings.


                            From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@...>
                            To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 1:29:11 PM
                            Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                            Part of the point in the notion of 'we suck' is this:  we don't actually suck.  At 7-5 the facts stand clear that we do not suck.  We may have 'sucked' yesterday but that doesn't validate the generality.  Similarly, Moss droped a TD - he's an ass isn't connecting.  He's not an ass because he dropped the pass - it's frustrating and whether it's concentration, talent or weather intolerance the fact is whether Moss' behaviour qualifies him for 'assness' is separate from the pass dropping.  This tends to make these statements inaccurate and for me as a fan the inaccurate and base insulting of 'my' team is something that frustrates me.  In the days of open message boards this list would have an impressive amount of what were likely immature at best folks just making degrading commentary.  This drives away the folks who want to just talk about the football and whether harsh, concise or verbose - that's what this list hopes to achieve and sustain.
                             
                            I was frustrated at Moss, Gaffney, Watson, Cassel, Dealtha and a host of others at various times as well.  Our second half performance was ...well summed up with sucky.  We'd show some signs of life and then self destruct with some of that belonging to the talent of the Steelers and some being our own ineptitude on this day. 
                             
                             
                            Go Pats!
                            Zip
                             
                             
                             

                          • George
                            ***** There is one slim bright note in the likely departure of Cassel, Mike. He will, almost certainly, become a starter for another team; and, as such, we
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 2, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ***** There is one slim bright note in the likely departure of Cassel, Mike. He will, almost certainly, become a starter for another team; and, as such, we should get a decent compensation pick for him in 2010 (as we should for Samuel this year).
                               

                              George

                               

                               
                               


                              From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Benson
                              Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:53 AM
                              To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                              I agree with you, Randy, in that "we suck" comments are usually born out of a bang-your-head- against-the- wall level of frustration. Deep, deep frustration. We're not fans who are used to losing. In fact, it's been a pretty long while since we've had a season like this and it's pretty darn hard to float back down to earth and play like mere mortals again. Furthering this frustration, at least for me, is that I think that all the great progress Cassel has made this season will be all for naught. Because he'll be a free agent next season and will no longer settle for a number 2 slot. Unfortunately, we're going to have to part company with him whatever this season brings.


                              From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                              To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 1:29:11 PM
                              Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                              Part of the point in the notion of 'we suck' is this:  we don't actually suck.  At 7-5 the facts stand clear that we do not suck.  We may have 'sucked' yesterday but that doesn't validate the generality.  Similarly, Moss droped a TD - he's an ass isn't connecting.  He's not an ass because he dropped the pass - it's frustrating and whether it's concentration, talent or weather intolerance the fact is whether Moss' behaviour qualifies him for 'assness' is separate from the pass dropping.  This tends to make these statements inaccurate and for me as a fan the inaccurate and base insulting of 'my' team is something that frustrates me.  In the days of open message boards this list would have an impressive amount of what were likely immature at best folks just making degrading commentary.  This drives away the folks who want to just talk about the football and whether harsh, concise or verbose - that's what this list hopes to achieve and sustain.
                               
                              I was frustrated at Moss, Gaffney, Watson, Cassel, Dealtha and a host of others at various times as well.  Our second half performance was ...well summed up with sucky.  We'd show some signs of life and then self destruct with some of that belonging to the talent of the Steelers and some being our own ineptitude on this day. 
                               
                               
                              Go Pats!
                              Zip
                               
                               
                               

                            • Mike Benson
                              I did think of that, George. And money is always nice. I just hope Cassel doesn t go to the Jets or Buffalo. Is Favre s deal with the Jets one year or two?
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 3, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I did think of that, George. And money is always nice. I just hope Cassel doesn't go to the Jets or Buffalo. Is Favre's deal with the Jets one year or two? Anybody know?


                                From: George <patswingr@...>
                                To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 10:50:32 PM
                                Subject: RE: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                ***** There is one slim bright note in the likely departure of Cassel, Mike. He will, almost certainly, become a starter for another team; and, as such, we should get a decent compensation pick for him in 2010 (as we should for Samuel this year).
                                 

                                George

                                 

                                 

                                 


                                From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Benson
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:53 AM
                                To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                I agree with you, Randy, in that "we suck" comments are usually born out of a bang-your-head- against-the- wall level of frustration. Deep, deep frustration. We're not fans who are used to losing. In fact, it's been a pretty long while since we've had a season like this and it's pretty darn hard to float back down to earth and play like mere mortals again. Furthering this frustration, at least for me, is that I think that all the great progress Cassel has made this season will be all for naught. Because he'll be a free agent next season and will no longer settle for a number 2 slot. Unfortunately, we're going to have to part company with him whatever this season brings.


                                From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                                To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 1:29:11 PM
                                Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                Part of the point in the notion of 'we suck' is this:  we don't actually suck.  At 7-5 the facts stand clear that we do not suck.  We may have 'sucked' yesterday but that doesn't validate the generality.  Similarly, Moss droped a TD - he's an ass isn't connecting.  He's not an ass because he dropped the pass - it's frustrating and whether it's concentration, talent or weather intolerance the fact is whether Moss' behaviour qualifies him for 'assness' is separate from the pass dropping.  This tends to make these statements inaccurate and for me as a fan the inaccurate and base insulting of 'my' team is something that frustrates me.  In the days of open message boards this list would have an impressive amount of what were likely immature at best folks just making degrading commentary.  This drives away the folks who want to just talk about the football and whether harsh, concise or verbose - that's what this list hopes to achieve and sustain.
                                 
                                I was frustrated at Moss, Gaffney, Watson, Cassel, Dealtha and a host of others at various times as well.  Our second half performance was ...well summed up with sucky.  We'd show some signs of life and then self destruct with some of that belonging to the talent of the Steelers and some being our own ineptitude on this day. 
                                 
                                 
                                Go Pats!
                                Zip
                                 
                                 
                                 


                              • George
                                ***** My thoughts, exactly, with regard to Cassel s new home. I m thinking maybe Detroit, or possibly even Tampa Bay. The latter would be good for him, since
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 3, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  ***** My thoughts, exactly, with regard to Cassel's new home. I'm thinking maybe Detroit, or possibly even Tampa Bay. The latter would be good for him, since it's a much better team at all other positions. Although, Detroit is LOADED for the Draft this year; and they have a top WR (Calvin Johnson) and RB (Kevin Smith) to build an offense around. They just need to fix the OL, and get a decent QB. (Their D is another story!) Kansas City could also use him; and I wouldn't rule out Washington, although they seem committed to grow with their mediocre guy.
                                   
                                  ***** In any case, there are certainly at least a few options outside of our Division. I hope he takes one of them.
                                   

                                  George

                                   

                                   
                                   


                                  From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Benson
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:32 AM
                                  To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                  I did think of that, George. And money is always nice. I just hope Cassel doesn't go to the Jets or Buffalo. Is Favre's deal with the Jets one year or two? Anybody know?


                                  From: George <patswingr@gmail. com>
                                  To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 10:50:32 PM
                                  Subject: RE: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                  ***** There is one slim bright note in the likely departure of Cassel, Mike. He will, almost certainly, become a starter for another team; and, as such, we should get a decent compensation pick for him in 2010 (as we should for Samuel this year).
                                   

                                  George

                                   

                                   

                                   


                                  From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:patriotzip@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Mike Benson
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:53 AM
                                  To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                  I agree with you, Randy, in that "we suck" comments are usually born out of a bang-your-head- against-the- wall level of frustration. Deep, deep frustration. We're not fans who are used to losing. In fact, it's been a pretty long while since we've had a season like this and it's pretty darn hard to float back down to earth and play like mere mortals again. Furthering this frustration, at least for me, is that I think that all the great progress Cassel has made this season will be all for naught. Because he'll be a free agent next season and will no longer settle for a number 2 slot. Unfortunately, we're going to have to part company with him whatever this season brings.


                                  From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                                  To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 1:29:11 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                  Part of the point in the notion of 'we suck' is this:  we don't actually suck.  At 7-5 the facts stand clear that we do not suck.  We may have 'sucked' yesterday but that doesn't validate the generality.  Similarly, Moss droped a TD - he's an ass isn't connecting.  He's not an ass because he dropped the pass - it's frustrating and whether it's concentration, talent or weather intolerance the fact is whether Moss' behaviour qualifies him for 'assness' is separate from the pass dropping.  This tends to make these statements inaccurate and for me as a fan the inaccurate and base insulting of 'my' team is something that frustrates me.  In the days of open message boards this list would have an impressive amount of what were likely immature at best folks just making degrading commentary.  This drives away the folks who want to just talk about the football and whether harsh, concise or verbose - that's what this list hopes to achieve and sustain.
                                   
                                  I was frustrated at Moss, Gaffney, Watson, Cassel, Dealtha and a host of others at various times as well.  Our second half performance was ...well summed up with sucky.  We'd show some signs of life and then self destruct with some of that belonging to the talent of the Steelers and some being our own ineptitude on this day. 
                                   
                                   
                                  Go Pats!
                                  Zip
                                   
                                   
                                   


                                • Susan Moore
                                  George, Are you certain that he has to go? I mean, can t we keep him OR will it be against what he d want to do now...I mean, he would want to start now
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 4, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    George,
                                    Are you certain that he has to go? I mean, can't we keep him OR will it be against what he'd want to do now...I mean, he would want to start now instead of being the backup?
                                    Seems a shame, doesn't it? He comes into his own (or is on the way) and then he has to go.
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: George
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:10 PM
                                    Subject: RE: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                    ***** My thoughts, exactly, with regard to Cassel's new home. I'm thinking maybe Detroit, or possibly even Tampa Bay. The latter would be good for him, since it's a much better team at all other positions. Although, Detroit is LOADED for the Draft this year; and they have a top WR (Calvin Johnson) and RB (Kevin Smith) to build an offense around. They just need to fix the OL, and get a decent QB. (Their D is another story!) Kansas City could also use him; and I wouldn't rule out Washington, although they seem committed to grow with their mediocre guy.
                                     
                                    ***** In any case, there are certainly at least a few options outside of our Division. I hope he takes one of them.
                                     

                                    George

                                     

                                     
                                     


                                    From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:patriotzip@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Mike Benson
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:32 AM
                                    To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Subject: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                    I did think of that, George. And money is always nice. I just hope Cassel doesn't go to the Jets or Buffalo. Is Favre's deal with the Jets one year or two? Anybody know?


                                    From: George <patswingr@gmail. com>
                                    To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 10:50:32 PM
                                    Subject: RE: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                    ***** There is one slim bright note in the likely departure of Cassel, Mike. He will, almost certainly, become a starter for another team; and, as such, we should get a decent compensation pick for him in 2010 (as we should for Samuel this year).
                                     

                                    George

                                     

                                     

                                     


                                    From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:patriotzip@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Mike Benson
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:53 AM
                                    To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                    I agree with you, Randy, in that "we suck" comments are usually born out of a bang-your-head- against-the- wall level of frustration. Deep, deep frustration. We're not fans who are used to losing. In fact, it's been a pretty long while since we've had a season like this and it's pretty darn hard to float back down to earth and play like mere mortals again. Furthering this frustration, at least for me, is that I think that all the great progress Cassel has made this season will be all for naught. Because he'll be a free agent next season and will no longer settle for a number 2 slot. Unfortunately, we're going to have to part company with him whatever this season brings.


                                    From: RandyZ. Pierce <alaric02@sprynet. com>
                                    To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 1:29:11 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                    Part of the point in the notion of 'we suck' is this:  we don't actually suck.  At 7-5 the facts stand clear that we do not suck.  We may have 'sucked' yesterday but that doesn't validate the generality.  Similarly, Moss droped a TD - he's an ass isn't connecting.  He's not an ass because he dropped the pass - it's frustrating and whether it's concentration, talent or weather intolerance the fact is whether Moss' behaviour qualifies him for 'assness' is separate from the pass dropping.  This tends to make these statements inaccurate and for me as a fan the inaccurate and base insulting of 'my' team is something that frustrates me.  In the days of open message boards this list would have an impressive amount of what were likely immature at best folks just making degrading commentary.  This drives away the folks who want to just talk about the football and whether harsh, concise or verbose - that's what this list hopes to achieve and sustain.
                                     
                                    I was frustrated at Moss, Gaffney, Watson, Cassel, Dealtha and a host of others at various times as well.  Our second half performance was ...well summed up with sucky.  We'd show some signs of life and then self destruct with some of that belonging to the talent of the Steelers and some being our own ineptitude on this day. 
                                     
                                     
                                    Go Pats!
                                    Zip
                                     
                                     
                                     


                                  • RandyZ. Pierce
                                    There s still talk of Josh McDaniels heading out to a coaching opportunity and he may in fact be itnerested in taking Matt with him wherever he goes. That
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 4, 2008
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                                      There's still talk of Josh McDaniels heading out to a coaching opportunity and he may in fact be itnerested in taking Matt with him wherever he goes.  That would require four more respectable games by Cassel of course...and that's something I think most of us hope takes place!
                                       
                                      No 11-5 team has ever missed the playoffs...
                                       
                                      Go Pats!
                                      Zip
                                    • Susan Moore
                                      That s an interesting stat, Randy--that no 11-5 team has ever missed the playoffs. You d hope that is true, but to see it actually written down is encouraging.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 4, 2008
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                                        That's an interesting stat, Randy--that no 11-5 team has ever missed the playoffs. You'd hope that is true, but to see it actually written down is encouraging.
                                        I have faith that our season is FAR from over and I think that it is definitely within Cassel's reach to do that. Sometimes you just have to have bad days or games or whatever to go forward and I think that's what we are going to do.
                                        The ESPN idiots already have the Super Bowl as between the Titans and the Giants, but I'm hoping that we prove otherwise.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:32 AM
                                        Subject: Re: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                        There's still talk of Josh McDaniels heading out to a coaching opportunity and he may in fact be itnerested in taking Matt with him wherever he goes.  That would require four more respectable games by Cassel of course...and that's something I think most of us hope takes place!
                                         
                                        No 11-5 team has ever missed the playoffs...
                                         
                                        Go Pats!
                                        Zip

                                      • George
                                        ***** Of course, I can t make a firm statement about this, without knowing who would replace McDaniel. However, my initial reaction is: Goodbye, Josh. Don t
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 4, 2008
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                                          ***** Of course, I can't make a firm statement about this, without knowing who would replace McDaniel. However, my initial reaction is: "Goodbye, Josh. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." As I've said consistently, I am not a fan of his work. I think Brady taught him more than he taught Brady; and that Brady was far more responsible for running the Patriots in-game offense than was McDaniel. I've been consistently disappointed with his game plans and play calling in nearly every game this season.
                                           

                                          George

                                           

                                           
                                           


                                          From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
                                          Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:33 AM
                                          To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Re: Tough Game for Certain

                                          There's still talk of Josh McDaniels heading out to a coaching opportunity and he may in fact be itnerested in taking Matt with him wherever he goes.  That would require four more respectable games by Cassel of course...and that's something I think most of us hope takes place!
                                           
                                          No 11-5 team has ever missed the playoffs...
                                           
                                          Go Pats!
                                          Zip

                                        • kmacalp@aol.com
                                          There s still talk of Josh McDaniels heading out to a coaching opportunity and he may in fact be itnerested in taking Matt with him wherever he goes.
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 4, 2008
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                                            <Randy> There's still talk of Josh McDaniels heading out to a coaching opportunity and he may in fact be itnerested in taking Matt with him wherever he goes. That would require four more respectable games by Cassel of course...and that's something I think most of us hope takes place!

                                            No 11-5 team has ever missed the playoffs...

                                            Go Pats!
                                            Zip
                                             
                                            <Scott> I think that stat's incorrect, Randy. I believe the 1985 Broncos were 11-5 and missed the playoffs. There were only three divisions in each conference back then with two Wild Cards. The Patriots and Jets also finished 11-5 that year and won the two wild card spots, leaving the Broncos out of the playoffs. This sparked a little controversy because the Cleveland Browns were 8-8, but made the playoffs as a division winner while an 11-5 team sat at home. The Broncos ended up appearing in 3 of the next 4 Super Bowls though.
                                             
                                            Scott Sheaffer



                                          • RandyZ. Pierce
                                            Scott, Thanks for that correction. I remember that season but not that detail very clearly and joined the reports I heard missing it. That year was famous
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 5, 2008
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                                              Scott,
                                               
                                              Thanks for that correction.  I remember that season but not that detail very clearly and joined the reports I heard missing it.  That year was famous for not having a January 26.  Sunday, January 26, 1986 simply didn't exist...that's my story and I'm sticking with it.
                                               
                                              Berry the Bears,
                                              Zip
                                            • kmacalp@aol.com
                                              Scott, Thanks for that correction. I remember that season but not that detail very clearly and joined the reports I heard missing it. That year was famous
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 6, 2008
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                                                Scott,

                                                Thanks for that correction. I remember that season but not that detail very clearly and joined the reports I heard missing it. That year was famous for not having a January 26. Sunday, January 26, 1986 simply didn't exist...that' s my story and I'm sticking with it.

                                                Berry the Bears,
                                                Zip
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Randy,
                                                 
                                                No problem. Still, it is rare for a team with that many wins to miss out. We're still alive. On a hopeful note, we should keep something in mind about our 7-5 record.
                                                 
                                                In 1985 we started 7-5 and went to the Super Bowl.
                                                 
                                                In 2001 we started 7-5 and won the Super Bowl.
                                                 
                                                For our first three Super Bowl trips, 85, 96, and 01, we posted 11-5 records. In fact, before Belichick and Brady, the best 16 game record in Patriots's history was 11-5. (Back in the 14 game days, we went 11-3.)
                                                 
                                                So it's interesting to see all these people pronouncing doom when we've got the same record we had for two Super Bowl trips. But, hey, if we miss the playoffs, they can pat themselves on the back for their steadfast refusal to ever stop doubting. ; )
                                                 
                                                Scott Sheaffer



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