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Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

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  • Monty Rodrigues
    I have to ask this ... what in hell s name has happened to our supposedly great DL? Monty ... From: John Knowles Subject: Re:
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 13, 2008
      I have to ask this ... what in hell's name has happened to our supposedly great DL?

      Monty

      --- On Mon, 10/13/08, John Knowles <johnknowles1@...> wrote:
      From: John Knowles <johnknowles1@...>
      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?
      To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 12:24 PM

      You're right, Susan. I'm just depressed. I still don't think Cassel will take us to the Super Bowl, but I do hope we get into the playoffs and he gets some real seasoning.

      --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Susan Moore <scmoore@...> wrote:
      From: Susan Moore <scmoore@...>
      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?
      To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 4:01 PM

      AHHHH, John, don't say that yet!! Let's give him, the staff, the other players, etc. some time and credit to see what they can come up with in the near future. After all, we're 4-2 and there are alot of games left.
      I just don't want to concede defeat yet..look at some of the teams that won the Super Bowl as wild cards and also from 0-2 records starting out. It's not how you start, but how you finish...let' s give them some time to get a good finish going???
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 8:08 AM
      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

       
       
      So I guess now I can say Matt Cassel won't be leading us to the Super Bowl. What a pathetic performance all around.

      --- On Mon, 10/13/08, George <patswingr@gmail. com> wrote:
      From: George <patswingr@gmail. com>
      Subject: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?
      To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 2:41 AM

      ***** I am now convinced. Matt Cassel is hopeless. His performance tonight; his total lack of pocket presence, and ability to spot receivers (like the WIDE OPEN WATSON IN THE END ZONE!) has been beyond description in its' ineptitude.
       
      ***** I tried to reach for sight of some improvement last week. I was wrong. He simply is not an NFL caliber QB.
       
      ***** This season, with regard to playoff hopes, is lost for the Patriots. Why not prep Kevin O'Connell for a start next week; and see what the kid has got. (Do NOT put him into this game, because the Chargers will just be pinning their ears back and coming at the QB for the rest of this debacle.) I see no reason not to get something out of the season; and experience for O'Connell is the only thing I can label as a realistic possibility now.
       
       

      George

      I'm a Patriots fan. My glass is always half full!



    • Billy Goodwin
      Susan, I am almost positive that the Trade Deadline is this Tuesday so I referencing that. Billy Goodwin billy61987@yahoo.com GO PATS!!!!!!! ... From: Susan
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 13, 2008
        Susan,
        I am almost positive that the Trade Deadline is this Tuesday so I referencing that.

        Billy Goodwin
        billy61987@...
        GO PATS!!!!!!!

        --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Susan Moore <scmoore@...> wrote:
        From: Susan Moore <scmoore@...>
        Subject: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?
        To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 11:24 AM

        Hey Billy,
        Just wondering why you said Tuesday to see if they make any moves? I didn't understand that one...
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 10:04 PM
        Subject: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

         




         
        I have to agree with you George on a few points. I gave Cassel full support as did many of you guys did as well. Watching him is like watching Drew Bledsoe towards the end of his career and maybe during the early part too lol. To many over throws, under throws, taking sacks, throwing the ball into the ground, not scanning the WHOLE field for and open wide receiver, and afraid to throw the ball into tight coverage. Hopefully they start O'Connell it would be nice to see something "different". I really don't think the season is lost just yet maybe after week 10 or 11 i will think differently but not now. I cant wait till Tuesday to see if the Pats make any big moves. I doubt it but who knows.

        Billy Goodwin
        billy61987@yahoo. com
        GO PATS!!!!!!!

        --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Susan Moore <scmoore@adelphia. net> wrote:
        From: Susan Moore <scmoore@adelphia. net>
        Subject: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?
        To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
        Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 12:06 AM

        Yeah....sigh, good analysis George....I remain half-full with the overall scheme of things too. I'm on this wagon and will NOT jump off for anything at all.
        I guess I do see how you say that the wind left the sails when Brady became injured...sort of happened with Bruschi too (for a short time). I wish that they would pick up that shattered glass and put it back together and fight for the games for Brady.
        Who or what can do that for them?
         
        Also, with Cassel...this might seem like a really stupid question---why can't he learn to not stumble in the pocket? I'm sure they practice all sorts of scenarios, right? Can't they get him to learn or do what they want him to do?
        Or is it just a matter of some guys have the talent and some don't and will never have it, once they get to that pro level?
        Sure wish he would improve...
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: George
        Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 8:09 PM
        Subject: RE: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

        ***** My glass remains half full for the Patriots, Susan. But, as I explained a couple of weeks ago, that's because the years from 2001 - 2004 were the best I could ever imagine as a football fan! It remains half full because I do believe that Tom Brady will be back next season. It remains half full because I certainly believe that Bill Belichick is still a great coach. So, in other words, it's half full in long view.
         
        ***** As for this season, it's not even half empty. It's shattered, with the contents spilled all over the floor. :-(
         
        ***** I want to see O'Connell start a few games, starting next week. I'm really tired of watching Cassel stumble around in the pocket, with no clue of what to do next.
         
        (Is is next season yet?)
         

        George

        I'm a Patriots fan. My glass is always half full!

         



      • Susan Moore
        Thanks for your insightful explanations and analysis....wish we could all come up with something that would make our season continue on the upwards path. Right
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 13, 2008
          Thanks for your insightful explanations and analysis....wish we could all come up with something that would make our season continue on the upwards path. Right now we are at 4-2, but I'm uneasy looking at the upcoming games...Denver, two with Buffalo, one each with the Nags and Squealers, and so on. NOT sure about some of those teams the way we are playing now with the defense.
          I sure do hope that BB and staff can get some moves going on and make us a contender once again, not that we aren't but we're in danger of slipping back. Darn it all, I had no idea I'd be feeling this way just one season after almost winning the Super Bowl--thought we'd be right back where we left off. NOT a perfect season but a great one and another chance at a Super Bowl.
          Go Browns tonight...I really don't want to see the Giants go 5-0 and then have to listen to yet another la-de-da over a Manning.
          GOOOOO PATRIOTS!!!
           
          Susan
          "To the glass half full mantra"
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: George
          Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:30 PM
          Subject: RE: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

          ***** I'll be as fair as I can to Cassel, Susan. The importance of his lack of actually playing time over the past TEN YEARS can't be over emphasized. It has to be, to put it very mildly, "unnerving" to have 1000 pounds or more of fierce, powerful human beings charging toward you, with the intent of hitting you as hard as they can. I certainly have never had to face that kind of pressure. And, until about six weeks ago, Matt Cassel didn't have to fact it very often either. Now, he faces it a couple of dozen times in every game.
           
          ***** Given that, it is possible that he may develop more confidence and ability to focus with more experience. But, despite my efforts to do so last week (seeing with my heart, I think!), I see no evidence that he has moved in that direction thus far. Therefore, I can't believe that it will happen like some flash of lightning. I think that, if there is any chance at all for it to happen for Cassel, it will take at least a season or more.
           
          ***** If the Patriots stick with him for the rest of the season, it's possible, though certainly not guaranteed, that he'll be much better QB in December than he is now. Unfortunately, I don't believe that he can lead our offense to enough victories between now and then for such progress to do the team's prospects for this season any good.
           
          ***** In response to your question about whether "some have the talent and some don't", I think that's also true. It really is too early to know whether or not Cassel is in the "don't" group, because of that serious lack of playing time that I mentioned. Some guys (think "Drew Bledsoe") never get rid of the "happy feet" in the pocket, or develop a sense of awareness of the defenders closing in. Some remain so concerned about that pressure that they can't focus on their receivers and the defenders downfield. That is the case with Cassel now. Will it be so forever with him? I don't know.
           

          George

          I'm a Patriots fan. My glass is always half full!

           
           


          From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:patriotzip@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Susan Moore
          Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 11:07 AM
          To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
          Subject: Re: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

          Yeah....sigh, good analysis George....I remain half-full with the overall scheme of things too. I'm on this wagon and will NOT jump off for anything at all.
          I guess I do see how you say that the wind left the sails when Brady became injured...sort of happened with Bruschi too (for a short time). I wish that they would pick up that shattered glass and put it back together and fight for the games for Brady.
          Who or what can do that for them?
           
          Also, with Cassel...this might seem like a really stupid question---why can't he learn to not stumble in the pocket? I'm sure they practice all sorts of scenarios, right? Can't they get him to learn or do what they want him to do?
          Or is it just a matter of some guys have the talent and some don't and will never have it, once they get to that pro level?
          Sure wish he would improve...
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: George
          Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 8:09 PM
          Subject: RE: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

          ***** My glass remains half full for the Patriots, Susan. But, as I explained a couple of weeks ago, that's because the years from 2001 - 2004 were the best I could ever imagine as a football fan! It remains half full because I do believe that Tom Brady will be back next season. It remains half full because I certainly believe that Bill Belichick is still a great coach. So, in other words, it's half full in long view.
           
          ***** As for this season, it's not even half empty. It's shattered, with the contents spilled all over the floor. :-(
           
          ***** I want to see O'Connell start a few games, starting next week. I'm really tired of watching Cassel stumble around in the pocket, with no clue of what to do next.
           
          (Is is next season yet?)
           

          George

          I'm a Patriots fan. My glass is always half full!

           
           




           

        • George
          ***** Everything starts with the DL, of course, Monty. But it looks to me like they are doing their job pretty well in tying up the OL in our 3-3. The failure
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 13, 2008
            ***** Everything starts with the DL, of course, Monty. But it looks to me like they are doing their job pretty well in tying up the OL in our 3-3. The failure to put on any kind of a pass rush falls more on the LBs than on the DL, IMO. That said, we were in a 4-3 for much of the game against the Chargers, and I didn't see any of the DL in Rivers' face much from that formation either.
             
            ***** In any case, the lack of a pass rush, or an ineffective pass rush that is not consistently able to contain or sack the QB, is a major fault with our current defense. The secondary is definitely not among the best in the NFL; but BB teams have had that situation in the past, and have made up for it with an overwhelming pass rush. This edition of the Patriots, to date, has shown nothing even close to that.
             
            ***** As the valid cliché goes, any NFL QB will pick you apart, if you don't put pressure on him. When you add to that a secondary that is far below all pro level, you have a serious problem. There we are.
             

            George

            I'm a Patriots fan. My glass is always half full!

             
             


            From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Monty Rodrigues
            Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 11:54 PM
            To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

            I have to ask this ... what in hell's name has happened to our supposedly great DL?

            Monty

            --- On Mon, 10/13/08, John Knowles <johnknowles1@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            From: John Knowles <johnknowles1@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?
            To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 12:24 PM

            You're right, Susan. I'm just depressed. I still don't think Cassel will take us to the Super Bowl, but I do hope we get into the playoffs and he gets some real seasoning.

            --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Susan Moore <scmoore@adelphia. net> wrote:
            From: Susan Moore <scmoore@adelphia. net>
            Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?
            To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 4:01 PM

            AHHHH, John, don't say that yet!! Let's give him, the staff, the other players, etc. some time and credit to see what they can come up with in the near future. After all, we're 4-2 and there are alot of games left.
            I just don't want to concede defeat yet..look at some of the teams that won the Super Bowl as wild cards and also from 0-2 records starting out. It's not how you start, but how you finish...let' s give them some time to get a good finish going???
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 8:08 AM
            Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

            So I guess now I can say Matt Cassel won't be leading us to the Super Bowl. What a pathetic performance all around.

            --- On Mon, 10/13/08, George <patswingr@gmail. com> wrote:
            From: George <patswingr@gmail. com>
            Subject: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?
            To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 2:41 AM

            ***** I am now convinced. Matt Cassel is hopeless. His performance tonight; his total lack of pocket presence, and ability to spot receivers (like the WIDE OPEN WATSON IN THE END ZONE!) has been beyond description in its' ineptitude.
             
            ***** I tried to reach for sight of some improvement last week. I was wrong. He simply is not an NFL caliber QB.
             
            ***** This season, with regard to playoff hopes, is lost for the Patriots. Why not prep Kevin O'Connell for a start next week; and see what the kid has got. (Do NOT put him into this game, because the Chargers will just be pinning their ears back and coming at the QB for the rest of this debacle.) I see no reason not to get something out of the season; and experience for O'Connell is the only thing I can label as a realistic possibility now.
             
             

            George

            I'm a Patriots fan. My glass is always half full!

             
             


          • RandyZ. Pierce
            He s been such a mixed bag on many levels and his performances have highlighted some coaching/strategic issues as well as the questionable performance of many
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 14, 2008
              He's been such a mixed bag on many levels and his performances have highlighted some coaching/strategic issues as well as the questionable performance of many players at varying times.
               
              My biggest frustration with the entire game was the back-breaking first and goal in which we threw, ran, threw and threw.  That four play series was the point in which the game was lost ultimately though I kept hope through the end as best a fan can when observing a train wreck. 
               
              So whether Cassel leads us to the Superbowl isn't something I'll concede until Math makes it so.  I can't argue that he looks incredibly unlikely to improve on the key things that are holding him and us back but I won't give up on the potentials for enjoyment on each stage.  There were three quarters of the San Fran game in which he did his job pretty well but that had a powerful ground performance helping a fair bit.  Some gut level protection of 'my Pats fandom' wants to wonder why those moments get no comment about his potential but the bad ones bring it back.  That said I'd be ready to see what O'Connell can bring this team at this point even as I continue (with some trepidation) to trust in the coaching staff and players to make this season work.
               
              Go Pats!
              Zip
               
            • George
              ***** Actually, Randy, following the San Fran game, I did comment that I believed that I had seen some improvements in the already documented weak areas of
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 14, 2008
                ***** Actually, Randy, following the San Fran game, I did comment that I believed that I had seen some improvements in the already documented weak areas of Cassel's game. It really gave me some hope for the future. However, my hope momentarily blinded me to the fact that the 49ers are not a very good defensive team. Cassel wasn't faced with much of a pass rush in that game, and he still struggled, at times.
                 
                ***** Against the Chargers, he was getting some pressure more often than not; as will be the case against all good teams. The regression to his state of confusion, and failure to buy time, and find secondary receivers, was dreadfully obvious. As I said earlier, it is my opinion that there has been very little, if any, real improvement in those areas, when the opposition is capable of presenting a decent pass rush. It doesn't even have to be a blitz, or an exceptionally strong rush. Any reasonable push, and Cassel starts looking for a hole to duck into, or throws the ball into the ground.
                 
                ***** I will very definitely continue to watch, and hope that I'm as wrong about his potential to improve rapidly as I was about a certain Head Coach that I railed against back in 2000. What was that guy's name? :-) But, my gut tells me that the confidence and "game speed" skills that Cassel needs come only with significant experience under fire. As we all know, Cassel simply doesn't have that. If he is ever to become a solid NFL QB, I believe that it will happen after he gets at least 20 NFL starts under his belt.
                 
                ***** One last time, I hope I'm wrong; as I always  do when I make a negative prediction about my team. I know this, he'd better do well next week, or he's really going to hear it from the home crowd. Fan patience is about gone for signs of significant improvement.
                 

                George

                I'm a Patriots fan. My glass is always half full!

                 
                 


                From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
                Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 3:11 PM
                To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Why Not O'Connell Next Week?

                He's been such a mixed bag on many levels and his performances have highlighted some coaching/strategic issues as well as the questionable performance of many players at varying times.
                 
                My biggest frustration with the entire game was the back-breaking first and goal in which we threw, ran, threw and threw.  That four play series was the point in which the game was lost ultimately though I kept hope through the end as best a fan can when observing a train wreck. 
                 
                So whether Cassel leads us to the Superbowl isn't something I'll concede until Math makes it so.  I can't argue that he looks incredibly unlikely to improve on the key things that are holding him and us back but I won't give up on the potentials for enjoyment on each stage.  There were three quarters of the San Fran game in which he did his job pretty well but that had a powerful ground performance helping a fair bit.  Some gut level protection of 'my Pats fandom' wants to wonder why those moments get no comment about his potential but the bad ones bring it back.  That said I'd be ready to see what O'Connell can bring this team at this point even as I continue (with some trepidation) to trust in the coaching staff and players to make this season work.
                 
                Go Pats!
                Zip
                 

              • erdoboy_patsfan
                ... supposedly great DL? ... Wait, wait, wait!!! We HAVE a D line?!?!? Erdoboy
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 14, 2008
                  Monty Rodrigues wrote:
                  >
                  > I have to ask this ... what in hell's name has happened to our
                  supposedly great DL?
                  >
                  > Monty

                  Wait, wait, wait!!!

                  We HAVE a D line?!?!?

                  Erdoboy
                • kmacalp@aol.com
                  I like Kevin O Connell. I think he s the 2nd stringer of the future, maybe even next year if Cassell lands somewhere else with a chance to start. I even
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 16, 2008
                    I like Kevin O'Connell. I think he's the 2nd stringer of the future, maybe even next year if Cassell lands somewhere else with a chance to start. I even think O'Connell could be THE QB when #12 decides to call it a day. BUT, I say stick with Matt Cassell right now. Like I've said all along, Cassell will have his ups and downs as he gains experience. If we make it to the playoffs, he'll have a whole season's worth of experience. Sorry, it's not going to happen overnight. And it won't happen overnight for O'Connell either. Making a switch now will take the team back to square one on seasoning a new QB anyway. Yeah, Cassell hadn't started since high school. Now he's gotten 4 straight starts and he went most of the way in another game. Wait! Some of you might say. O'Connell has less rust than Cassell had. He started during his college career, right up through last season. Yeah, and he played in a spread option offense, something totally alien to things he'll be asked to do as a pro. Cassell was already considered a pro style pocket passer in high school. In the spread option, O'Connell had to read the defensive ends. In the pros, he'll be asked to read linebackers and defensive backs. Just learning to take a snap under center and dropping back was something O'Connell had to work on because in his old system he was pretty much in the shotgun constantly. He's got potential, and if he had to start, I'd definitely support him, but Cassell's got potential too, and he's the guy who's been developing through on the field experience these past few weeks. Why start back at square 1 again? O'Connell will have his ups and downs and struggles too. So why create a controversy which serves to distract both QBs? Whoever's in there will be looking over their shoulder, worried more about making mistakes than in making plays. As long as the team has a shot at the playoffs, stay with Cassell. If they get eliminated, then they should get O'Connell playing time to develop him for the future IF they don't think Cassell will be back. If they want to AND they think they can resign Cassell, they could keep playing him to get him more experience. All that said, Cassell's spent enough time on the bench, I see him looking for a team where he'll have a chance to win the starting job.
                     
                    Besides, in the two losses, the defense gave up an average of 34 points. It's kind of tough to win games when the D is a total sieve. I didn't have much time to comment before last week's game, but I did see a perfect storm brewing. The Chargers have a ton of talent. It was desperation time for them, trying to salvage their season. They probably hate the Patriots more than any other team, having had two consecutive seasons ended by New England. Yeah, the Super Bowl was painful for the Patriots and their fans. So you kinda might have an idea of how the Chargers felt after going 14-2 in 06 before getting upset in a Patriots' comeback win. Plus, we were doing that back to back west coast thing, even staying out on the west coast instead of traveling. The Arizona Cardinals tried that a while back when they were on the east coast for back to back games. The second one was that Jets game. How did that turn out? This isn't the 07 Patriots. Just tune in and see what they are able to do that week. Don't measure the whole season out in advance with grand schemes how they should do and then feel like the season is ruined each and every time they lose. Cheer for them to win next week.
                     
                    Speaking of next week. Errrr . . .  I'll go into that one with low expectations. In the Belichick era, the Patriots have always struggled against Shannahan's Broncos - even with Tom Brady. If we win, I'll be thrilled. If we don't, well, it's not totally unexpected.  



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