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Re: Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

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  • Frank
    You make a good point about subjective calls, George. Maybe calls like force out are just too difficult to make. If they end up replaying every judgement
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 3, 2008
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      You make a good point about subjective calls, George. Maybe calls
      like "force out" are just too difficult to make. If they end up
      replaying every judgement call to attempt to get them right, a game
      will be 4 hours long. Refs are human (so I'm told) and will make
      mistakes.

      Now that they can superimpose the strke zone on our TV screens, we
      see all the ball-and-strke calls that are missed in baseball. And
      the umps are in perfect position on every pitch. Maybe you're right,
      and I'm just expecting perfect judgement every time.

      fdb

      --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "George" <patswingr@...> wrote:
      >
      > ***** We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, Don. You
      may feel
      > that it wasn't broken; but I disagree. I can recall some strong
      disagreement
      > with calls of "force out", going in both directions. In some
      cases, I
      > thought that the subjective call of "force out" gave an opposing
      receiver a
      > catch he shouldn't have had. In other cases, I thought that
      the "force out"
      > call should have been made, but wasn't, when what I thought was a
      catch was
      > taken away from us, because our "forced out" receiver came down
      out of
      > bounds. It seems to me that you're only looking at the offensive
      side of it.
      > What about the calls that gave our opponents one of those sideline
      or
      > endzone calls that we didn't think was a force out?
      >
      > ***** I hate all subjective calls - Offensive Holding, Defensive
      Holding,
      > Illegal Contact, etc. So I'm happy to see one of them trashed. I
      didn't like
      > this penalty. And I believe that I read a comment from Belichick
      indicating
      > that he felt the same way about it. Less subjectivity means an
      easy, and
      > objectively reviewable call for the officials. That's a good
      thing, IMO.
      >
      >
      > George
      > An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Don Diamant
      > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:07 PM
      > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I have to disagree with you on this one George. It is one of the
      worst
      > decisions the NFL has ever made. This will allow a defender who
      gets burned
      > to kill the play anyway. This takes away those great sideline
      catches and
      > endzone corner catches as now all a defender has to do is simply
      push the
      > offensive player out of bounds. I can't imagine our team likes
      this
      > retraction of the rules either. Just imagine all those Randy Moss
      catches
      > where he went up in the air on the sideline or in the endzone and
      then
      > consider all of them erased as now all a defender needs to do is
      push him
      > out of bounds before he can get his feet to the ground. How can
      this
      > possibly be a good thing? This was never one of the rules that
      made
      > everyone angry in its application, it wasn't broken so why did
      they fix it?
      >
      >
      > Don
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of George
      > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:06 AM
      > To: George
      > Subject: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News
      >
      > ***** As is usually the case, I like most of the changes that the
      NFL has
      > made for the upcoming season. There's only one exception.
      >
      > What I like:
      >
      > - Force outs eliminated. IMO, this gives DBs and LBs an
      opportunity to make
      > a great play, and prevent a key first down or TD. I hate the ticky-
      tack
      > calls that are often made for "illegal contact", and wish they'd
      done
      > something about that, as well. But at least this change removes
      another very
      > subjective judgment call from the hands of officials, and puts
      gives the
      > defender a chance to play with all out aggression on the sideline,
      without
      > worrying about what angle he takes. Now, it's just "feet in, or
      feet out",
      > as it should be. I like this one a lot; and even more so because I
      suspect
      > that Polian and Dungy probable hate it. (I'd love to know how the
      voting
      > went on this one!)
      >
      > George
      > An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!
      >
    • Don Diamant
      You re absolutely right George, we ll have to disagree. ALL calls are subjective. Holding calls, for example, are well defined it is just that the
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 3, 2008
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        You’re absolutely right George, we’ll have to disagree.  ALL calls are subjective.  Holding calls, for example, are well defined it is just that the officiating seems to apply it subjectively. 

         

        This is a fast game and they aren’t going to catch everything and I expect them to get the call wrong sometimes.  That said there are eight officiating crew members on the field so that’s just under three players on the field for each of them.  It’s inexcusable the frequency with which they miss calls that should be made.  For those calls they do make I think the frequency with which they get them wrong when they do make the call is quite reasonable, they are almost always right when they do make the call.  Again, that said, I think they too often get the call wrong on the replay which should be never, but they do get it wrong on the replay sometimes.

         

        If we threw out all the rules we wouldn’t have a game we would have an open brawl.

         

        Don

         


        From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of George
        Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:21 AM
        To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

         

        ***** We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, Don. You may feel that it wasn't broken; but I disagree. I can recall some strong disagreement with calls of "force out", going in both directions. In some cases, I thought that the subjective call of "force out" gave an opposing receiver a catch he shouldn't have had. In other cases, I thought that the "force out" call should have been made, but wasn't, when what I thought was a catch was taken away from us, because our "forced out" receiver came down out of bounds. It seems to me that you're only looking at the offensive side of it. What about the calls that gave our opponents one of those sideline or endzone calls that we didn't think was a force out?

         

        ***** I hate all subjective calls - Offensive Holding, Defensive Holding, Illegal Contact, etc. So I'm happy to see one of them trashed. I didn't like this penalty. And I believe that I read a comment from Belichick indicating that he felt the same way about it. Less subjectivity means an easy, and objectively reviewable call for the officials. That's a good thing, IMO.

         

        George
        An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!

         

         


        From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: patriotzip@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Don Diamant
        Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:07 PM
        To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
        Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

        I have to disagree with you on this one George.  It is one of the worst decisions the NFL has ever made.  This will allow a defender who gets burned to kill the play anyway.  This takes away those great sideline catches and endzone corner catches as now all a defender has to do is simply push the offensive player out of bounds.  I can’t imagine our team likes this retraction of the rules either.  Just imagine all those Randy Moss catches where he went up in the air on the sideline or in the endzone and then consider all of them erased as now all a defender needs to do is push him out of bounds before he can get his feet to the ground.  How can this possibly be a good thing?  This was never one of the rules that made everyone angry in its application, it wasn’t broken so why did they fix it? 

        Don


        From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of George
        Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:06 AM
        To: George
        Subject: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

        ***** As is usually the case, I like most of the changes that the NFL has
        made for the upcoming season. There's only one exception.

        What I like:

        - Force outs eliminated. IMO, this gives DBs and LBs an opportunity to make
        a great play, and prevent a key first down or TD. I hate the ticky-tack
        calls that are often made for "illegal contact", and wish they'd done
        something about that, as well. But at least this change removes another very
        subjective judgment call from the hands of officials, and puts gives the
        defender a chance to play with all out aggression on the sideline, without
        worrying about what angle he takes. Now, it's just "feet in, or feet out",
        as it should be. I like this one a lot; and even more so because I suspect
        that Polian and Dungy probable hate it. (I'd love to know how the voting
        went on this one!)

        George
        An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!

      • George
        ***** And I didn t even mention my favorite subjective call - Pass Interference! That is one subjective call that really needs some change made. I had heard
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 3, 2008
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          ***** And I didn't even mention my "favorite" subjective call - Pass Interference! That is one subjective call that really needs some change made. I had heard that there was a possibility that they'd consider changing the penalty for Defensive PI this year. I'm very disappointed that they did not do so. IMO, they need to either reduce the penalty from "point of the foul", to 15 yards and an automatic first down (similar to the NCAA rule); or make the call subject to challenge and review. Although it's a judgment call, the fact is that it is nearly always made by an official who is on the run, and who may not have an ideal angle for making the call. At least, with a booth review, the Referee would have the advantage of different angles to look at, while snuggled firmly in his stationary position under the hood. This is a call which very often has an almost immediate affect on the score of the game, one way or the other. It is currently, IMO, the weakest part of the NFL rule book.
           
          ***** Yes, I really, really, really hate the PI penalty rules as they stand now!
           
           

          George
          An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!

           


          From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank
          Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:17 PM
          To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [patriotzip] Re: Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

          You make a good point about subjective calls, George. Maybe calls
          like "force out" are just too difficult to make. If they end up
          replaying every judgement call to attempt to get them right, a game
          will be 4 hours long. Refs are human (so I'm told) and will make
          mistakes.

          Now that they can superimpose the strke zone on our TV screens, we
          see all the ball-and-strke calls that are missed in baseball. And
          the umps are in perfect position on every pitch. Maybe you're right,
          and I'm just expecting perfect judgement every time.

          fdb

          --- In patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com, "George" <patswingr@. ..> wrote:

          >
          > ***** We'll just have
          to agree to disagree on that one, Don. You
          may feel
          > that it wasn't
          broken; but I disagree. I can recall some strong
          disagreement
          > with
          calls of "force out", going in both directions. In some
          cases, I
          >
          thought that the subjective call of "force out" gave an opposing
          receiver a
          > catch he shouldn't have had. In other cases, I thought that
          the "force out"
          > call should have been made, but wasn't, when what I thought
          was a
          catch was
          > taken away from us, because our "forced out"
          receiver came down
          out of
          > bounds. It seems to me that you're only
          looking at the offensive
          side of it.
          > What about the calls that gave
          our opponents one of those sideline
          or
          > endzone calls that we didn't
          think was a force out?
          >
          > ***** I hate all subjective calls -
          Offensive Holding, Defensive
          Holding,
          > Illegal Contact, etc. So I'm
          happy to see one of them trashed. I
          didn't like
          > this penalty. And I
          believe that I read a comment from Belichick
          indicating
          > that he felt
          the same way about it. Less subjectivity means an
          easy, and
          >
          objectively reviewable call for the officials. That's a good
          thing, IMO.
          >
          >
          > George
          > An imperfect fan of the imperfect
          Patriots!
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From:
          href="mailto:patriotzip%40yahoogroups.com">patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
          [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Don Diamant
          > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:07
          PM
          > To:
          href="mailto:patriotzip%40yahoogroups.com">patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
          >
          Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I have to disagree with you on this one George. It is
          one of the
          worst
          > decisions the NFL has ever made. This will allow a
          defender who
          gets burned
          > to kill the play anyway. This takes away
          those great sideline
          catches and
          > endzone corner catches as now all a
          defender has to do is simply
          push the
          > offensive player out of
          bounds. I can't imagine our team likes
          this
          > retraction of the rules
          either. Just imagine all those Randy Moss
          catches
          > where he went up
          in the air on the sideline or in the endzone and
          then
          > consider all
          of them erased as now all a defender needs to do is
          push him
          > out of
          bounds before he can get his feet to the ground. How can
          this
          >
          possibly be a good thing? This was never one of the rules that
          made
          >
          everyone angry in its application, it wasn't broken so why did
          they fix it?
          >
          >
          > Don
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From:
          patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
          [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com] On
          > Behalf Of George
          > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:06
          AM
          > To: George
          > Subject: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and
          Bad News
          >
          > ***** As is usually the case, I like most of the
          changes that the
          NFL has
          > made for the upcoming season. There's only
          one exception.
          >
          > What I like:
          >
          > - Force outs
          eliminated. IMO, this gives DBs and LBs an
          opportunity to make
          > a
          great play, and prevent a key first down or TD. I hate the ticky-
          tack
          > calls that are often made for "illegal contact", and wish
          they'd
          done
          > something about that, as well. But at least this change
          removes
          another very
          > subjective judgment call from the hands of
          officials, and puts
          gives the
          > defender a chance to play with all out
          aggression on the sideline,
          without
          > worrying about what angle he
          takes. Now, it's just "feet in, or
          feet out",
          > as it should be. I
          like this one a lot; and even more so because I
          suspect
          > that Polian
          and Dungy probable hate it. (I'd love to know how the
          voting
          > went on
          this one!)
          >
          > George
          > An imperfect fan of the imperfect
          Patriots!
          >

        • RandyZ. Pierce
          I did believe the Force out rule was broken and for two primary reasons. The rule required an official to be watching several complex things at once: 1) Did
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            I did believe the Force out rule was broken and for two primary reasons.  The rule required an official to be watching several complex things at once:
            1) Did two feet come down in bounds.
            2)  Did the Receiver gain possession of the ball (no juggle etc) at the time of the feet being down
            3) Was there a force out in which the receiver might have likely gotten feet down.
             
            Generally they did a decent job but it was a lot to ask here and it probably could have remained functional there except for the second issue which was instant replay.  Here is where there were problems.  If the official ruled that he came down in bounds but it was incorrect, replay would catch that error - all good there.  If he ruled it a catch but it was also a force out then he must choose one of those and usually if he thinks it's a catch he cannot rule it a force out but then on instant replay he may be found wrong on the catch and the IR is not allowed to review the judgment call of the force out.  Last year that event burned several teams.
             
            Removing the force out does fix this and make the first decisin process considerably easier for the official.  It has sifnificant other effects on those sideline leaping catches - impact which will affect each team equally and based on defensive/offensive strengths, will probably help the Patriots more than hurt them.  I don't foresee Rodney worrying too much about the catch if he can blast the guy out of bounds.  I don't see the height mismatches for Hobbes and company being nearly as significant under this scenario.
             
            Moss will lose a few more catches on the sideline and adjustments will probably bbring those a little closer into the field or further enhance his freakish athleticism as he gets his feet down despite some of the hits to knock him out of bounds.
             
            Go for the pick/kncok away or for the hit to knock him out of bounds - some interesting decisions ahead in which the DB will likely play the ball and the safety will try to time the blast.
             
            Go Pats!
            Zip
             
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