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RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

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  • Don Diamant
    I have to disagree with you on this one George. It is one of the worst decisions the NFL has ever made. This will allow a defender who gets burned to kill
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 3, 2008
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      I have to disagree with you on this one George.  It is one of the worst decisions the NFL has ever made.  This will allow a defender who gets burned to kill the play anyway.  This takes away those great sideline catches and endzone corner catches as now all a defender has to do is simply push the offensive player out of bounds.  I can’t imagine our team likes this retraction of the rules either.  Just imagine all those Randy Moss catches where he went up in the air on the sideline or in the endzone and then consider all of them erased as now all a defender needs to do is push him out of bounds before he can get his feet to the ground.  How can this possibly be a good thing?  This was never one of the rules that made everyone angry in its application, it wasn’t broken so why did they fix it? 

       

      Don

       


      From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of George
      Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:06 AM
      To: George
      Subject: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

       

      ***** As is usually the case, I like most of the changes that the NFL has
      made for the upcoming season. There's only one exception.

      What I like:

      - Force outs eliminated. IMO, this gives DBs and LBs an opportunity to make
      a great play, and prevent a key first down or TD. I hate the ticky-tack
      calls that are often made for "illegal contact", and wish they'd done
      something about that, as well. But at least this change removes another very
      subjective judgment call from the hands of officials, and puts gives the
      defender a chance to play with all out aggression on the sideline, without
      worrying about what angle he takes. Now, it's just "feet in, or feet out",
      as it should be. I like this one a lot; and even more so because I suspect
      that Polian and Dungy probable hate it. (I'd love to know how the voting
      went on this one!)

      George
      An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!

    • Frank
      I tend to agree with Don. It s a bit of a cop out. The only reason to change the rule is so the refs don t have to make a judgement as to whether or not the
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 3, 2008
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        I tend to agree with Don. It's a bit of a cop out. The only reason
        to change the rule is so the refs don't have to make a judgement as
        to whether or not the receiver would have come down in bounds. It's
        the same thing with the immortal tuck rule. If they eliminated it,
        the refs would have to try to determine if the QB was actually
        trying to execute a forward pass or not. They don't want the zebras
        to have to think too hard.

        On the other hand, with all the benefits that are afforded to
        receivers these days, e.g. the emphasis on illegal contact (thank
        you, Mr. Polian), it's good to see them throw a bone to the D for a
        change.

        fdb

        --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "Don Diamant" <jeepndd@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have to disagree with you on this one George. It is one of the
        worst
        > decisions the NFL has ever made. This will allow a defender who
        gets burned
        > to kill the play anyway. This takes away those great sideline
        catches and
        > endzone corner catches as now all a defender has to do is simply
        push the
        > offensive player out of bounds. I can't imagine our team likes
        this
        > retraction of the rules either. Just imagine all those Randy Moss
        catches
        > where he went up in the air on the sideline or in the endzone and
        then
        > consider all of them erased as now all a defender needs to do is
        push him
        > out of bounds before he can get his feet to the ground. How can
        this
        > possibly be a good thing? This was never one of the rules that
        made
        > everyone angry in its application, it wasn't broken so why did
        they fix it?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Don
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of George
        > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:06 AM
        > To: George
        > Subject: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News
        >
        >
        >
        > ***** As is usually the case, I like most of the changes that the
        NFL has
        > made for the upcoming season. There's only one exception.
        >
        > What I like:
        >
        > - Force outs eliminated. IMO, this gives DBs and LBs an
        opportunity to make
        > a great play, and prevent a key first down or TD. I hate the ticky-
        tack
        > calls that are often made for "illegal contact", and wish they'd
        done
        > something about that, as well. But at least this change removes
        another very
        > subjective judgment call from the hands of officials, and puts
        gives the
        > defender a chance to play with all out aggression on the sideline,
        without
        > worrying about what angle he takes. Now, it's just "feet in, or
        feet out",
        > as it should be. I like this one a lot; and even more so because I
        suspect
        > that Polian and Dungy probable hate it. (I'd love to know how the
        voting
        > went on this one!)
        >
        > George
        > An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!
        >
        >
        >
        > ,_._,___
        >
      • George
        ***** We ll just have to agree to disagree on that one, Don. You may feel that it wasn t broken; but I disagree. I can recall some strong disagreement with
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 3, 2008
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          ***** We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, Don. You may feel that it wasn't broken; but I disagree. I can recall some strong disagreement with calls of "force out", going in both directions. In some cases, I thought that the subjective call of "force out" gave an opposing receiver a catch he shouldn't have had. In other cases, I thought that the "force out" call should have been made, but wasn't, when what I thought was a catch was taken away from us, because our "forced out" receiver came down out of bounds. It seems to me that you're only looking at the offensive side of it. What about the calls that gave our opponents one of those sideline or endzone calls that we didn't think was a force out?
           
          ***** I hate all subjective calls - Offensive Holding, Defensive Holding, Illegal Contact, etc. So I'm happy to see one of them trashed. I didn't like this penalty. And I believe that I read a comment from Belichick indicating that he felt the same way about it. Less subjectivity means an easy, and objectively reviewable call for the officials. That's a good thing, IMO.
           

          George
          An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!

           


          From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Diamant
          Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:07 PM
          To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

          I have to disagree with you on this one George.  It is one of the worst decisions the NFL has ever made.  This will allow a defender who gets burned to kill the play anyway.  This takes away those great sideline catches and endzone corner catches as now all a defender has to do is simply push the offensive player out of bounds.  I can’t imagine our team likes this retraction of the rules either.  Just imagine all those Randy Moss catches where he went up in the air on the sideline or in the endzone and then consider all of them erased as now all a defender needs to do is push him out of bounds before he can get his feet to the ground.  How can this possibly be a good thing?  This was never one of the rules that made everyone angry in its application, it wasn’t broken so why did they fix it? 

          Don


          From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of George
          Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:06 AM
          To: George
          Subject: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

          ***** As is usually the case, I like most of the changes that the NFL has
          made for the upcoming season. There's only one exception.

          What I like:

          - Force outs eliminated. IMO, this gives DBs and LBs an opportunity to make
          a great play, and prevent a key first down or TD. I hate the ticky-tack
          calls that are often made for "illegal contact", and wish they'd done
          something about that, as well. But at least this change removes another very
          subjective judgment call from the hands of officials, and puts gives the
          defender a chance to play with all out aggression on the sideline, without
          worrying about what angle he takes. Now, it's just "feet in, or feet out",
          as it should be. I like this one a lot; and even more so because I suspect
          that Polian and Dungy probable hate it. (I'd love to know how the voting
          went on this one!)

          George
          An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!

        • Frank
          You make a good point about subjective calls, George. Maybe calls like force out are just too difficult to make. If they end up replaying every judgement
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 3, 2008
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            You make a good point about subjective calls, George. Maybe calls
            like "force out" are just too difficult to make. If they end up
            replaying every judgement call to attempt to get them right, a game
            will be 4 hours long. Refs are human (so I'm told) and will make
            mistakes.

            Now that they can superimpose the strke zone on our TV screens, we
            see all the ball-and-strke calls that are missed in baseball. And
            the umps are in perfect position on every pitch. Maybe you're right,
            and I'm just expecting perfect judgement every time.

            fdb

            --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "George" <patswingr@...> wrote:
            >
            > ***** We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, Don. You
            may feel
            > that it wasn't broken; but I disagree. I can recall some strong
            disagreement
            > with calls of "force out", going in both directions. In some
            cases, I
            > thought that the subjective call of "force out" gave an opposing
            receiver a
            > catch he shouldn't have had. In other cases, I thought that
            the "force out"
            > call should have been made, but wasn't, when what I thought was a
            catch was
            > taken away from us, because our "forced out" receiver came down
            out of
            > bounds. It seems to me that you're only looking at the offensive
            side of it.
            > What about the calls that gave our opponents one of those sideline
            or
            > endzone calls that we didn't think was a force out?
            >
            > ***** I hate all subjective calls - Offensive Holding, Defensive
            Holding,
            > Illegal Contact, etc. So I'm happy to see one of them trashed. I
            didn't like
            > this penalty. And I believe that I read a comment from Belichick
            indicating
            > that he felt the same way about it. Less subjectivity means an
            easy, and
            > objectively reviewable call for the officials. That's a good
            thing, IMO.
            >
            >
            > George
            > An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of Don Diamant
            > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:07 PM
            > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I have to disagree with you on this one George. It is one of the
            worst
            > decisions the NFL has ever made. This will allow a defender who
            gets burned
            > to kill the play anyway. This takes away those great sideline
            catches and
            > endzone corner catches as now all a defender has to do is simply
            push the
            > offensive player out of bounds. I can't imagine our team likes
            this
            > retraction of the rules either. Just imagine all those Randy Moss
            catches
            > where he went up in the air on the sideline or in the endzone and
            then
            > consider all of them erased as now all a defender needs to do is
            push him
            > out of bounds before he can get his feet to the ground. How can
            this
            > possibly be a good thing? This was never one of the rules that
            made
            > everyone angry in its application, it wasn't broken so why did
            they fix it?
            >
            >
            > Don
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of George
            > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:06 AM
            > To: George
            > Subject: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News
            >
            > ***** As is usually the case, I like most of the changes that the
            NFL has
            > made for the upcoming season. There's only one exception.
            >
            > What I like:
            >
            > - Force outs eliminated. IMO, this gives DBs and LBs an
            opportunity to make
            > a great play, and prevent a key first down or TD. I hate the ticky-
            tack
            > calls that are often made for "illegal contact", and wish they'd
            done
            > something about that, as well. But at least this change removes
            another very
            > subjective judgment call from the hands of officials, and puts
            gives the
            > defender a chance to play with all out aggression on the sideline,
            without
            > worrying about what angle he takes. Now, it's just "feet in, or
            feet out",
            > as it should be. I like this one a lot; and even more so because I
            suspect
            > that Polian and Dungy probable hate it. (I'd love to know how the
            voting
            > went on this one!)
            >
            > George
            > An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!
            >
          • Don Diamant
            You re absolutely right George, we ll have to disagree. ALL calls are subjective. Holding calls, for example, are well defined it is just that the
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 3, 2008
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              You’re absolutely right George, we’ll have to disagree.  ALL calls are subjective.  Holding calls, for example, are well defined it is just that the officiating seems to apply it subjectively. 

               

              This is a fast game and they aren’t going to catch everything and I expect them to get the call wrong sometimes.  That said there are eight officiating crew members on the field so that’s just under three players on the field for each of them.  It’s inexcusable the frequency with which they miss calls that should be made.  For those calls they do make I think the frequency with which they get them wrong when they do make the call is quite reasonable, they are almost always right when they do make the call.  Again, that said, I think they too often get the call wrong on the replay which should be never, but they do get it wrong on the replay sometimes.

               

              If we threw out all the rules we wouldn’t have a game we would have an open brawl.

               

              Don

               


              From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of George
              Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:21 AM
              To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

               

              ***** We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, Don. You may feel that it wasn't broken; but I disagree. I can recall some strong disagreement with calls of "force out", going in both directions. In some cases, I thought that the subjective call of "force out" gave an opposing receiver a catch he shouldn't have had. In other cases, I thought that the "force out" call should have been made, but wasn't, when what I thought was a catch was taken away from us, because our "forced out" receiver came down out of bounds. It seems to me that you're only looking at the offensive side of it. What about the calls that gave our opponents one of those sideline or endzone calls that we didn't think was a force out?

               

              ***** I hate all subjective calls - Offensive Holding, Defensive Holding, Illegal Contact, etc. So I'm happy to see one of them trashed. I didn't like this penalty. And I believe that I read a comment from Belichick indicating that he felt the same way about it. Less subjectivity means an easy, and objectively reviewable call for the officials. That's a good thing, IMO.

               

              George
              An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!

               

               


              From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: patriotzip@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Don Diamant
              Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:07 PM
              To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
              Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

              I have to disagree with you on this one George.  It is one of the worst decisions the NFL has ever made.  This will allow a defender who gets burned to kill the play anyway.  This takes away those great sideline catches and endzone corner catches as now all a defender has to do is simply push the offensive player out of bounds.  I can’t imagine our team likes this retraction of the rules either.  Just imagine all those Randy Moss catches where he went up in the air on the sideline or in the endzone and then consider all of them erased as now all a defender needs to do is push him out of bounds before he can get his feet to the ground.  How can this possibly be a good thing?  This was never one of the rules that made everyone angry in its application, it wasn’t broken so why did they fix it? 

              Don


              From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of George
              Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:06 AM
              To: George
              Subject: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

              ***** As is usually the case, I like most of the changes that the NFL has
              made for the upcoming season. There's only one exception.

              What I like:

              - Force outs eliminated. IMO, this gives DBs and LBs an opportunity to make
              a great play, and prevent a key first down or TD. I hate the ticky-tack
              calls that are often made for "illegal contact", and wish they'd done
              something about that, as well. But at least this change removes another very
              subjective judgment call from the hands of officials, and puts gives the
              defender a chance to play with all out aggression on the sideline, without
              worrying about what angle he takes. Now, it's just "feet in, or feet out",
              as it should be. I like this one a lot; and even more so because I suspect
              that Polian and Dungy probable hate it. (I'd love to know how the voting
              went on this one!)

              George
              An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!

            • George
              ***** And I didn t even mention my favorite subjective call - Pass Interference! That is one subjective call that really needs some change made. I had heard
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 3, 2008
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                ***** And I didn't even mention my "favorite" subjective call - Pass Interference! That is one subjective call that really needs some change made. I had heard that there was a possibility that they'd consider changing the penalty for Defensive PI this year. I'm very disappointed that they did not do so. IMO, they need to either reduce the penalty from "point of the foul", to 15 yards and an automatic first down (similar to the NCAA rule); or make the call subject to challenge and review. Although it's a judgment call, the fact is that it is nearly always made by an official who is on the run, and who may not have an ideal angle for making the call. At least, with a booth review, the Referee would have the advantage of different angles to look at, while snuggled firmly in his stationary position under the hood. This is a call which very often has an almost immediate affect on the score of the game, one way or the other. It is currently, IMO, the weakest part of the NFL rule book.
                 
                ***** Yes, I really, really, really hate the PI penalty rules as they stand now!
                 
                 

                George
                An imperfect fan of the imperfect Patriots!

                 


                From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank
                Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:17 PM
                To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [patriotzip] Re: Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News

                You make a good point about subjective calls, George. Maybe calls
                like "force out" are just too difficult to make. If they end up
                replaying every judgement call to attempt to get them right, a game
                will be 4 hours long. Refs are human (so I'm told) and will make
                mistakes.

                Now that they can superimpose the strke zone on our TV screens, we
                see all the ball-and-strke calls that are missed in baseball. And
                the umps are in perfect position on every pitch. Maybe you're right,
                and I'm just expecting perfect judgement every time.

                fdb

                --- In patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com, "George" <patswingr@. ..> wrote:

                >
                > ***** We'll just have
                to agree to disagree on that one, Don. You
                may feel
                > that it wasn't
                broken; but I disagree. I can recall some strong
                disagreement
                > with
                calls of "force out", going in both directions. In some
                cases, I
                >
                thought that the subjective call of "force out" gave an opposing
                receiver a
                > catch he shouldn't have had. In other cases, I thought that
                the "force out"
                > call should have been made, but wasn't, when what I thought
                was a
                catch was
                > taken away from us, because our "forced out"
                receiver came down
                out of
                > bounds. It seems to me that you're only
                looking at the offensive
                side of it.
                > What about the calls that gave
                our opponents one of those sideline
                or
                > endzone calls that we didn't
                think was a force out?
                >
                > ***** I hate all subjective calls -
                Offensive Holding, Defensive
                Holding,
                > Illegal Contact, etc. So I'm
                happy to see one of them trashed. I
                didn't like
                > this penalty. And I
                believe that I read a comment from Belichick
                indicating
                > that he felt
                the same way about it. Less subjectivity means an
                easy, and
                >
                objectively reviewable call for the officials. That's a good
                thing, IMO.
                >
                >
                > George
                > An imperfect fan of the imperfect
                Patriots!
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From:
                href="mailto:patriotzip%40yahoogroups.com">patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com] On
                > Behalf Of Don Diamant
                > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:07
                PM
                > To:
                href="mailto:patriotzip%40yahoogroups.com">patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                >
                Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and Bad News
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I have to disagree with you on this one George. It is
                one of the
                worst
                > decisions the NFL has ever made. This will allow a
                defender who
                gets burned
                > to kill the play anyway. This takes away
                those great sideline
                catches and
                > endzone corner catches as now all a
                defender has to do is simply
                push the
                > offensive player out of
                bounds. I can't imagine our team likes
                this
                > retraction of the rules
                either. Just imagine all those Randy Moss
                catches
                > where he went up
                in the air on the sideline or in the endzone and
                then
                > consider all
                of them erased as now all a defender needs to do is
                push him
                > out of
                bounds before he can get his feet to the ground. How can
                this
                >
                possibly be a good thing? This was never one of the rules that
                made
                >
                everyone angry in its application, it wasn't broken so why did
                they fix it?
                >
                >
                > Don
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From:
                patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com] On
                > Behalf Of George
                > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:06
                AM
                > To: George
                > Subject: [patriotzip] Rule Changes - Good News and
                Bad News
                >
                > ***** As is usually the case, I like most of the
                changes that the
                NFL has
                > made for the upcoming season. There's only
                one exception.
                >
                > What I like:
                >
                > - Force outs
                eliminated. IMO, this gives DBs and LBs an
                opportunity to make
                > a
                great play, and prevent a key first down or TD. I hate the ticky-
                tack
                > calls that are often made for "illegal contact", and wish
                they'd
                done
                > something about that, as well. But at least this change
                removes
                another very
                > subjective judgment call from the hands of
                officials, and puts
                gives the
                > defender a chance to play with all out
                aggression on the sideline,
                without
                > worrying about what angle he
                takes. Now, it's just "feet in, or
                feet out",
                > as it should be. I
                like this one a lot; and even more so because I
                suspect
                > that Polian
                and Dungy probable hate it. (I'd love to know how the
                voting
                > went on
                this one!)
                >
                > George
                > An imperfect fan of the imperfect
                Patriots!
                >

              • RandyZ. Pierce
                I did believe the Force out rule was broken and for two primary reasons. The rule required an official to be watching several complex things at once: 1) Did
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 4, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  I did believe the Force out rule was broken and for two primary reasons.  The rule required an official to be watching several complex things at once:
                  1) Did two feet come down in bounds.
                  2)  Did the Receiver gain possession of the ball (no juggle etc) at the time of the feet being down
                  3) Was there a force out in which the receiver might have likely gotten feet down.
                   
                  Generally they did a decent job but it was a lot to ask here and it probably could have remained functional there except for the second issue which was instant replay.  Here is where there were problems.  If the official ruled that he came down in bounds but it was incorrect, replay would catch that error - all good there.  If he ruled it a catch but it was also a force out then he must choose one of those and usually if he thinks it's a catch he cannot rule it a force out but then on instant replay he may be found wrong on the catch and the IR is not allowed to review the judgment call of the force out.  Last year that event burned several teams.
                   
                  Removing the force out does fix this and make the first decisin process considerably easier for the official.  It has sifnificant other effects on those sideline leaping catches - impact which will affect each team equally and based on defensive/offensive strengths, will probably help the Patriots more than hurt them.  I don't foresee Rodney worrying too much about the catch if he can blast the guy out of bounds.  I don't see the height mismatches for Hobbes and company being nearly as significant under this scenario.
                   
                  Moss will lose a few more catches on the sideline and adjustments will probably bbring those a little closer into the field or further enhance his freakish athleticism as he gets his feet down despite some of the hits to knock him out of bounds.
                   
                  Go for the pick/kncok away or for the hit to knock him out of bounds - some interesting decisions ahead in which the DB will likely play the ball and the safety will try to time the blast.
                   
                  Go Pats!
                  Zip
                   
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