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Re: [patriotzip] Moss

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  • RandyZ. Pierce
    That s an itneresting point Dave. Used to be taht Tom s favorite receiver was the open one but that doesn t seem to have been as true last year. I still
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
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      That's an itneresting point Dave.  Used to be taht Tom's favorite receiver was the open one but that doesn't seem to have been as true last year.  I still think the numbers indicate that penchant is ok - especially with Welker getting such benefit but the OC and Brady need to be aware of the playoff pitfalls they endured with over concentration.  Moss is good if the value doesn't breka the rest of the team and only while Tom realizes he has to take the open options more than the playoffs indicated.
       
      Go Pats!
      Zip
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 11:37 AM
      Subject: [patriotzip] Moss

      I wonder if keeping Moss is a good idea. No doubt Randy Moss is an
      incredibly gifted athelete but I think he messed with Brady's head.
      Although this was a great year statistically for Brady this was, IMHO, his
      worst year for down the stretch and playoff performances. He looked like
      Drew Bledsoe out there trying to hit Moss long and getting hammered for it.
      Brady is the master of the 'dink and dunk' short passing game and I think
      Moss got him out of it enough to spoil an otherwise incredible year. When
      the OL was getting beaten consistently in the SB Brady could have eaten the
      Giants alive with the old Brady short game but instead he was going for the
      home run ball to Moss. That strategy simply didn't work and I think it cost
      the Patriots the game.

      Harry

    • Scott
      There s a lot of Moss bashing going on. Consider a few things though. Everyone seems to think he had the most absolutely awful season. To hear people talk, he
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 12, 2010
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        There's a lot of Moss bashing going on. Consider a few things though. Everyone seems to think he had the most absolutely awful season. To hear people talk, he was totally useless. It's like he did nothing.

        Here's something to consider. Before Moss arrived, does anyone know what the team record was for touchdown catches in a season? Come on. This is a team that's boasted Troy Brown, Stanley Morgan, Harold Carmichael and Irving Fryar among others. Oh, and I'm including tight ends too. So that means guys like Ben Coates and Russ Francis. What's the most TDs any of those receivers ever caught in a year?

        I'm sure some of you guys know. For those who don't, I'll answer. It was 12. That's it the best season catching touchdowns by any Patriot receiver ever was 12.

        How many TDs did Moss catch this year?

        He scored 13!

        So even a banged up Randy Moss who draws double coverage virtually every game still managed to catch more TDs this season than any other Patriot receiver has ever had in a season. That's "dogging it?"

        When I watch the guy play, I'm not seeing this lack of effort everyone is talking about. I'm seeing a guy who throws blocks and still manages to make a number of plays despite defenses being geared toward stopping him. On Sunday, didn't anyone else see the catch where he didn't go down and got hit by three defenders? The penalty everyone is talking about . . . If Moss wasn't trying, then why would he hit the guy? If he wasn't trying, he'd avoid contact and let the guy run right past him. Welker has been hit with some of those same penalties this year. Remember? So has Watson and Edleman and others. It happens a lot especially with all the screens the team runs because sometimes the timing is off and one of the other receivers starts blocking too early.

        Besides, he's in a contract year next year. It may be his last chance for a big pay day before he gets too old. Even if he was the most selfish, self-centered player in the history of football, you'll probably see a maximum effort next year.

        And people want to ship him off to another team? I hope that team isn't on New England's schedule next year.

        Put things in perspective. It was a horrible loss. It doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water.

        Scott Sheaffer
      • Kevin Morgan
        Well, I for one, feel kind of foolish at the way I blasted Moss, if not here on the list, then in my mind.  Those stats are quite revealing.  Apparently,
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 12, 2010
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          Well, I for one, feel kind of foolish at the way I blasted Moss, if not here on the list, then in my mind.  Those stats are quite revealing.  Apparently, many of us fans had misjudged the effort he was making.  It's true that we, as fans, don't know what his assignments were, so we can't really say he wasn't doing enough.  Perhaps he wasn't being used correctly.  I suspect that the lack of a bona-fide 3rd receiver plays into that scenario.
           
          Anything can happen, to Anyone, at Anytime.

        • Carrie Collins
          VERY well said!! There isn t anything else I could add to this.   nepatriotbabe@yahoo.com  ... From: Scott Subject: [patriotzip] Moss To:
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 12, 2010
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            VERY well said!! There isn't anything else I could add to this.

             
            nepatriotbabe@... 


            --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Scott <kmacalp@...> wrote:

            From: Scott <kmacalp@...>
            Subject: [patriotzip] Moss
            To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 8:25 PM

             
            There's a lot of Moss bashing going on. Consider a few things though. Everyone seems to think he had the most absolutely awful season. To hear people talk, he was totally useless. It's like he did nothing.

            Here's something to consider. Before Moss arrived, does anyone know what the team record was for touchdown catches in a season? Come on. This is a team that's boasted Troy Brown, Stanley Morgan, Harold Carmichael and Irving Fryar among others. Oh, and I'm including tight ends too. So that means guys like Ben Coates and Russ Francis. What's the most TDs any of those receivers ever caught in a year?

            I'm sure some of you guys know. For those who don't, I'll answer. It was 12. That's it the best season catching touchdowns by any Patriot receiver ever was 12.

            How many TDs did Moss catch this year?

            He scored 13!

            So even a banged up Randy Moss who draws double coverage virtually every game still managed to catch more TDs this season than any other Patriot receiver has ever had in a season. That's "dogging it?"

            When I watch the guy play, I'm not seeing this lack of effort everyone is talking about. I'm seeing a guy who throws blocks and still manages to make a number of plays despite defenses being geared toward stopping him. On Sunday, didn't anyone else see the catch where he didn't go down and got hit by three defenders? The penalty everyone is talking about . . . If Moss wasn't trying, then why would he hit the guy? If he wasn't trying, he'd avoid contact and let the guy run right past him. Welker has been hit with some of those same penalties this year. Remember? So has Watson and Edleman and others. It happens a lot especially with all the screens the team runs because sometimes the timing is off and one of the other receivers starts blocking too early.

            Besides, he's in a contract year next year. It may be his last chance for a big pay day before he gets too old. Even if he was the most selfish, self-centered player in the history of football, you'll probably see a maximum effort next year.

            And people want to ship him off to another team? I hope that team isn't on New England's schedule next year.

            Put things in perspective. It was a horrible loss. It doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water.

            Scott Sheaffer


          • George
            I m with you on this one, Scott. I posted my complete thoughts about Moss a few weeks ago. Nothing has happened to change that. He gets frustrated too easily.
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 12, 2010
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              I'm with you on this one, Scott. I posted my complete thoughts about Moss a few weeks ago. Nothing has happened to change that. He gets frustrated too easily. I'd like to see him stronger in that regard. Beyond that, I have no significant criticism of him; and a bucket full of praise.
               
              Overall, I'm still a Randy Moss fan. And, it appears to me, so is Tom Brady. I can't imagine Brady staying as close to him during games, and as aggressively supportive of him off the field, as he is, if Moss was a 'dog'.
               
              Get a real OC, and add a quality WR. Then we'll see Moss raising that "paltry" total of 13 TDs! (Kidnapping Darrell Reivis wouldn't hurt either!) :-)

              George

               
               
               


              From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott
              Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 8:25 AM
              To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [patriotzip] Moss

               

              There's a lot of Moss bashing going on. Consider a few things though. Everyone seems to think he had the most absolutely awful season. To hear people talk, he was totally useless. It's like he did nothing.

              Here's something to consider. Before Moss arrived, does anyone know what the team record was for touchdown catches in a season? Come on. This is a team that's boasted Troy Brown, Stanley Morgan, Harold Carmichael and Irving Fryar among others. Oh, and I'm including tight ends too. So that means guys like Ben Coates and Russ Francis. What's the most TDs any of those receivers ever caught in a year?

              I'm sure some of you guys know. For those who don't, I'll answer. It was 12. That's it the best season catching touchdowns by any Patriot receiver ever was 12.

              How many TDs did Moss catch this year?

              He scored 13!

              So even a banged up Randy Moss who draws double coverage virtually every game still managed to catch more TDs this season than any other Patriot receiver has ever had in a season. That's "dogging it?"

              When I watch the guy play, I'm not seeing this lack of effort everyone is talking about. I'm seeing a guy who throws blocks and still manages to make a number of plays despite defenses being geared toward stopping him. On Sunday, didn't anyone else see the catch where he didn't go down and got hit by three defenders? The penalty everyone is talking about . . . If Moss wasn't trying, then why would he hit the guy? If he wasn't trying, he'd avoid contact and let the guy run right past him. Welker has been hit with some of those same penalties this year. Remember? So has Watson and Edleman and others. It happens a lot especially with all the screens the team runs because sometimes the timing is off and one of the other receivers starts blocking too early.

              Besides, he's in a contract year next year. It may be his last chance for a big pay day before he gets too old. Even if he was the most selfish, self-centered player in the history of football, you'll probably see a maximum effort next year.

              And people want to ship him off to another team? I hope that team isn't on New England's schedule next year.

              Put things in perspective. It was a horrible loss. It doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water.

              Scott Sheaffer

            • Machado.Nicholas
              I don t think Moss had an awful season. Through the Colts and Saints games he was fine and he was contributing like an elite player should for the most part.
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 12, 2010
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                I don't think Moss had an awful season. Through the Colts and Saints games he was fine and he was contributing like an elite player should for the most part. But after those losses he went back toward being the old Randy Moss. He gave up on the season and played like it in Miami, most of the rest of the season, except one game after the national media called him out, and he really played like it against the Ravens. When the going got really tough he folded up. Give me the David Pattens, Troy Browns, Jermaine Wiggins', Kevin Faulks, Tedy Bruschis, Rodney Harrisons, Tom Bradys, Ty Laws etc. Some of them will be in the Hall Of Fame but they all have their names on the Super Bowl win lists and those are the kind of players I want to watch and have on the Patriots. Those guys and plenty more like them never quit on their team, themselves or their fans and that is why we can all look back on and savor three Super Bowl wins. I will look back on Randy Moss as an unfortunate lack of intensity and commitment in an otherwise superb athelete. A great almost if you will. Moss will probably get in the Hall Of Fame but his name will live on with a whole bunch of other players who had tremendous talent but nothing but a whole bunch of numbers to show for it. I'll take the guys with what it takes to get the rings.

                I have one other criticism of Moss. For a guy who claimed to be starving for a Super Bowl win when he came in there are so many things he could have done that he didn't. He never worked with the youngsters, never took anyone under his wing, never lead with his work ethic or anything else despite the fact that he was named a captain, never convinced me that he would sacrifice numbers, style or time to realize his dream etc. Instead he lead the movement to get days off and have a less strenuous physical workload. He announced he would and then made a point of getting to know the guy who was going to be throwing the ball to him. He didn't mention anyone else. These are the things that affect the whole team and allow that complacency and selfishness to begin eating away at the winning attitude. Why wasn't he showing up and doing whatever else he could in practice if he physically needed time off? He got his days off and said see you later. That is not the way of a winner or a champion IMHO.

                Harry


                At 01:25 AM 1/13/2010 +0000, you wrote:
                 

                There's a lot of Moss bashing going on. Consider a few things though. Everyone seems to think he had the most absolutely awful season. To hear people talk, he was totally useless. It's like he did nothing.

                Here's something to consider. Before Moss arrived, does anyone know what the team record was for touchdown catches in a season? Come on. This is a team that's boasted Troy Brown, Stanley Morgan, Harold Carmichael and Irving Fryar among others. Oh, and I'm including tight ends too. So that means guys like Ben Coates and Russ Francis. What's the most TDs any of those receivers ever caught in a year?

                I'm sure some of you guys know. For those who don't, I'll answer. It was 12. That's it the best season catching touchdowns by any Patriot receiver ever was 12.

                How many TDs did Moss catch this year?

                He scored 13!

                So even a banged up Randy Moss who draws double coverage virtually every game still managed to catch more TDs this season than any other Patriot receiver has ever had in a season. That's "dogging it?"

                When I watch the guy play, I'm not seeing this lack of effort everyone is talking about. I'm seeing a guy who throws blocks and still manages to make a number of plays despite defenses being geared toward stopping him. On Sunday, didn't anyone else see the catch where he didn't go down and got hit by three defenders? The penalty everyone is talking about . . . If Moss wasn't trying, then why would he hit the guy? If he wasn't trying, he'd avoid contact and let the guy run right past him. Welker has been hit with some of those same penalties this year. Remember? So has Watson and Edleman and others. It happens a lot especially with all the screens the team runs because sometimes the timing is off and one of the other receivers starts blocking too early.

                Besides, he's in a contract year next year. It may be his last chance for a big pay day before he gets too old. Even if he was the most selfish, self-centered player in the history of football, you'll probably see a maximum effort next year.

                And people want to ship him off to another team? I hope that team isn't on New England's schedule next year.

                Put things in perspective. It was a horrible loss. It doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water.

                Scott Sheaffer



              • Scott
                Harry, In the first three months of the season, Moss scored 8 touchdowns. That s 2.6 a month. In December he scored 5 touchdowns, nearly twice his monthly
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 13, 2010
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                  Harry,

                  In the first three months of the season, Moss scored 8 touchdowns. That's 2.6 a month. In December he scored 5 touchdowns, nearly twice his monthly average for the rest of the season.

                  On total receptions, he averaged just shy of 5.2 catches per game for the season. Following his horrible game against Carolina he had:

                  5 catches against Buffalo
                  4 catches against Jacksonsville
                  5 catches against Houston
                  5 catces against the Ravens

                  You can find a game by game breakdown here:
                  http://www.nfl.com/players/gamelogs?id=MOS699912

                  Wasnt it Moss's teammates who elected him as a captain? Apparently the players who work with him in games, practices, camps, and off-season programs feel he is providing leadership.

                  Add to that the effort plays I notice Moss making. Even against Carolina, he was getting to defenders and throwing blocks for his teammates. Through the years, I've seen other receivers stand around while defenders ran past them to make tackles. I've seen a lack of effort. I don't see that with Moss.

                  I guess it's an issue we'll have to agree to disagree on. I just wouldn't advocate dumping Moss next season. Signing him to a big money long term contract after next season is another story because he is getting on in years. But get rid of him for next season? I wouldn't do that. We'll need his production, and we'll need him to continue to take extra defenders out of plays to open up things for Edleman underneath and maybe even for Brandon Tate on the opposite side.

                  I'm also not ready to scapegoat one of our best players for the shortcomings of the entire team.

                  Scott Sheaffer
                • Machado.Nicholas
                  Hey Scott, I am very much enjoying this rather spirited debate. I find I often learn a lot in the course of a give and take discussion and this is no
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 13, 2010
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                    Hey Scott,

                    I am very much enjoying this rather spirited debate. I find I often learn a lot in the course of a give and take discussion and this is no exception. I am grateful for the addition your stats and figures bring and impressed at how extensive your football knowledge is.

                    I said in my first post on this that Moss wasn't the only one who played poorly against the Ravens but I singled him out because I believe that if not the root of the problem he is one of the main causes for the decline of the Pats. Yes, his teamates elected him captain at the beginning of the 2008 season after he put up spectacular numbers the season before. Did they have another vote this year or did they keep the captains from that time?

                    I don't think Moss is a bad guy but I do think his personality causes him to be called a 'cancer in the locker room' as I believe I've seen it first hand on the Pats. It is very subtle and took time but since Randy Moss arrived I've seen the best quarterback in the league radically change the methods that brought him Super Bowl success in the past, I've seen the emphasis on being the best conditioned team in the league go by the boards, I've seen our elite players for the first time start to take days off as a matter of course - did you know Moss has been getting not just Wednesdays off but many Fridays? In the Super Bowl days time off was given when someones father died. I don't remember any other reason. I've seen players show up late for meetings which was unheard of in the past. I've seen the best second half team in football become unable to hold large leads against mid level teams. I've seen a team that was a step above every other team in the league become mediocre. Worst I've seen much of the Patriots team become individuals who don't give the team-first attitude credence anymore. That to me is a cancer slowly eating the team and the guy I hold most responsible by his actions and priorities is Randy Moss.

                    Harry


                    At 11:25 AM 1/13/2010 +0000, you wrote:
                     

                    Harry,

                    In the first three months of the season, Moss scored 8 touchdowns. That's 2.6 a month. In December he scored 5 touchdowns, nearly twice his monthly average for the rest of the season.

                    On total receptions, he averaged just shy of 5.2 catches per game for the season. Following his horrible game against Carolina he had:

                    5 catches against Buffalo
                    4 catches against Jacksonsville
                    5 catches against Houston
                    5 catces against the Ravens

                    You can find a game by game breakdown here:
                    http://www.nfl.com/players/gamelogs?id=MOS699912

                    Wasnt it Moss's teammates who elected him as a captain? Apparently the players who work with him in games, practices, camps, and off-season programs feel he is providing leadership.

                    Add to that the effort plays I notice Moss making. Even against Carolina, he was getting to defenders and throwing blocks for his teammates. Through the years, I've seen other receivers stand around while defenders ran past them to make tackles. I've seen a lack of effort. I don't see that with Moss.

                    I guess it's an issue we'll have to agree to disagree on. I just wouldn't advocate dumping Moss next season. Signing him to a big money long term contract after next season is another story because he is getting on in years. But get rid of him for next season? I wouldn't do that. We'll need his production, and we'll need him to continue to take extra defenders out of plays to open up things for Edleman underneath and maybe even for Brandon Tate on the opposite side.

                    I'm also not ready to scapegoat one of our best players for the shortcomings of the entire team.

                    Scott Sheaffer



                  • Kevin Morgan
                    Harry, I believe that often times a perception of a person can be generated by only one or two instances, and that that perception carries over into other
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 13, 2010
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                      Harry,
                      I believe that often times a perception of a person can be generated by only one or two instances, and that that perception carries over into other situations.  Then it is blown out of proportion by the media, or an opponent, or even a disgruntled former or current teammate.  It would be pointless for that person to try to redeem himself, because it might appear as if he were covering up an incident.  We are always carrying our past on our backs, and when some of it appears for whatever reason, it becomes an all-consuming entity, and we may not be able to ever shed that negativity.  BB and TB both only have words of praise for Moss.  The coach is not afraid to pull a player from a game when not playing up to par.  He has done so several times this season.  I don't think he ever sat Moss, did he?  I have reflected on this, and I find no fault with his play that I haven't seen plenty of times on other teams by other players.  This cancer in the locker room label is pretty liberally used, I think.  The media and the fans use it for a multitude of ills plagueing a team.  The same applies to standout athletes like Moss.  If the team isn't doing well, he must be the reason; we were fine before he came here, Brady isn't the same guy he was before , etc. What about the injury to Brady's knee?  WHat about our porous OL?  What about the ineptitude of the play calling?  What about some of the outstanding play by excellent defenders on good opponents' teams?  I don't think Moss has that much mojo that he can create all of those circumstances, but he may have enough image to have the finger pointed at him for them.  Just an opinion.  I say he's alright, and I hope he stays. 
                       
                      Anything can happen, to Anyone, at Anytime.

                    • Kevin Morgan
                      Harry, I believe that often times a perception of a person can be generated by only one or two instances, and that that perception carries over into other
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 13, 2010
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                        Harry,
                        I believe that often times a perception of a person can be generated by only one or two instances, and that that perception carries over into other situations.  Then it is blown out of proportion by the media, or an opponent, or even a disgruntled former or current teammate.  It would be pointless for that person to try to redeem himself, because it might appear as if he were covering up an incident.  We are always carrying our past on our backs, and when some of it appears for whatever reason, it becomes an all-consuming entity, and we may not be able to ever shed that negativity.  BB and TB both have only words of praise for Moss.  The coach is not afraid to pull a player from a game when not playing up to par.  He has done so several times this season.  I don't think he ever sat Moss, did he?  I have reflected on this, and I find no fault with his play that I haven't seen plenty of times on other teams by other players.  
                         
                        Anything can happen, to Anyone, at Anytime.

                      • Machado.Nicholas
                        Hey Kevin, You bring up a lot of important points. I agree there are plenty of other factors involved in and people who need to take responsibility for the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 15, 2010
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                          Hey Kevin,

                          You bring up a lot of important points. I agree there are plenty of other factors involved in and people who need to take responsibility for the Pats decline besides Randy Moss. No team in football has been able to maintain that winning edge for long. The Pats have been one of the more successful teams in that regard.

                          I disagree that BB and TB have had only praise for Moss. After the Ravens game Brady said lack of leadership was the biggest factor in the loss and the sub-par season. That to me was a criticism of Moss as well as plenty of other players. When asked specifically and directly if he thought Moss gave his best effort Brady ducked the question. That is not praise.

                          There were many new faces on the Pats this year and fewer veterans. That means the veterans who remained needed to step up and take up the leadership slack. I didn't see that in Moss at all this year. Instead I saw a player just do his job for the much of the year then become a drag on the team when he needed to take on more of a leadership role after the Colts and Saints losses. Instead of trying to rally the team Moss became part of the problem by missing practice. Then he sulked through the Miami game which showed his immaturity and he became more of a problem. Captains and leaders don't perform this way. Moss is not a rookie. He is an elite veteran with extensive knowledge of football. IMO he did not perform that way when the team needed it.

                          To say that other teams have players who do worse is not valid reasoning IMO. The thing that has set the Pats apart this decade has been players who don't make the mistakes and give mediocre effort but instead did the things they need to do to win and stay winners. The players who can't, won't or don't do these things belong on other teams not the Pats.

                          BTW I was wrong about Moss's salary next year. According to Mike Reiss he is to be paid $6.4 million next year.

                          Harry


                          At 12:34 PM 1/13/2010 -0800, you wrote:
                           

                          Harry,
                          I believe that often times a perception of a person can be generated by only one or two instances, and that that perception carries over into other situations.  Then it is blown out of proportion by the media, or an opponent, or even a disgruntled former or current teammate.  It would be pointless for that person to try to redeem himself, because it might appear as if he were covering up an incident.  We are always carrying our past on our backs, and when some of it appears for whatever reason, it becomes an all-consuming entity, and we may not be able to ever shed that negativity.  BB and TB both only have words of praise for Moss.  The coach is not afraid to pull a player from a game when not playing up to par.  He has done so several times this season.  I don't think he ever sat Moss, did he?  I have reflected on this, and I find no fault with his play that I haven't seen plenty of times on other teams by other players.  This cancer in the locker room label is pretty liberally used, I think.  The media and the fans use it for a multitude of ills plagueing a team.  The same applies to standout athletes like Moss.  If the team isn't doing well, he must be the reason; we were fine before he came here, Brady isn't the same guy he was before , etc. What about the injury to Brady's knee?  WHat about our porous OL?  What about the ineptitude of the play calling?  What about some of the outstanding play by excellent defenders on good opponents' teams?  I don't think Moss has that much mojo that he can create all of those circumstances, but he may have enough image to have the finger pointed at him for them.  Just an opinion.  I say he's alright, and I hope he stays. 
                           
                          Anything can happen, to Anyone, at Anytime.



                        • Machado.Nicholas
                          At 10:41 AM 1/13/2010 +0700, you wrote:   Overall, I m still a Randy Moss fan. And, it appears to me, so is Tom Brady. I can t imagine Brady staying as close
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 16, 2010
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                            At 10:41 AM 1/13/2010 +0700, you wrote:

                             
                            Overall, I'm still a Randy Moss fan. And, it appears to me, so is Tom Brady. I can't imagine Brady staying as close to him during games, and as aggressively supportive of him off the field, as he is, if Moss was a 'dog'.
                             

                            Hey George,

                            Yes TB stayed behind Moss right up to the Ravens game but these quotes after the game suggest to me that Brady is loosing patience with him. Not that they are only directed at Moss but they certainly include him IMO especially the second line.

                            “The reality is obviously the leadership on our team wasn’t where it needed to be. I’m speaking for myself. I was one of those leaders that certainly needs to do a better job in getting everybody on the same page and filling the void of those key players.”

                            "Other guys have to step in and fill those shoes," Brady said. "Guys who were here with those type of players have to take those lessons of leadership they learned from them and apply those to what was happening this season. ...

                            Another thing that concerns me is that after the Ravens game Brady was asked directly if he thought Moss gave his all. Brady ducked the question saying something to the effect that he trusted Moss. I haven't been able to find the exact quote but it was the Mike Reiss page. Didn't sound anything like Brady was happy with Moss' performance. If he was he would have said so. Combine that with other players saying Moss was slow getting back into the huddles, that he would only talk to Faulk after the game, that he seemed to be slow and careless in his routes etc. and I think there could be more of a problem.

                            Time will tell.

                            Harry


                            George
                            18c3c090.jpg
                             
                             
                             


                            From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott
                            Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 8:25 AM
                            To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [patriotzip] Moss

                             

                            There's a lot of Moss bashing going on. Consider a few things though. Everyone seems to think he had the most absolutely awful season. To hear people talk, he was totally useless. It's like he did nothing.

                            Here's something to consider. Before Moss arrived, does anyone know what the team record was for touchdown catches in a season? Come on. This is a team that's boasted Troy Brown, Stanley Morgan, Harold Carmichael and Irving Fryar among others. Oh, and I'm including tight ends too. So that means guys like Ben Coates and Russ Francis. What's the most TDs any of those receivers ever caught in a year?

                            I'm sure some of you guys know. For those who don't, I'll answer. It was 12. That's it the best season catching touchdowns by any Patriot receiver ever was 12.

                            How many TDs did Moss catch this year?

                            He scored 13!

                            So even a banged up Randy Moss who draws double coverage virtually every game still managed to catch more TDs this season than any other Patriot receiver has ever had in a season. That's "dogging it?"

                            When I watch the guy play, I'm not seeing this lack of effort everyone is talking about. I'm seeing a guy who throws blocks and still manages to make a number of plays despite defenses being geared toward stopping him. On Sunday, didn't anyone else see the catch where he didn't go down and got hit by three defenders? The penalty everyone is talking about . . . If Moss wasn't trying, then why would he hit the guy? If he wasn't trying, he'd avoid contact and let the guy run right past him. Welker has been hit with some of those same penalties this year. Remember? So has Watson and Edleman and others. It happens a lot especially with all the screens the team runs because sometimes the timing is off and one of the other receivers starts blocking too early.

                            Besides, he's in a contract year next year. It may be his last chance for a big pay day before he gets too old. Even if he was the most selfish, self-centered player in the history of football, you'll probably see a maximum effort next year.

                            And people want to ship him off to another team? I hope that team isn't on New England's schedule next year.

                            Put things in perspective. It was a horrible loss. It doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water.

                            Scott Sheaffer





                          • George
                            There s no question in my mind that Randy Moss does not deal with adversity very well. That is definitely not a good thing for a professional athlete, since
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 16, 2010
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                              There's no question in my mind that Randy Moss does not deal with adversity very well. That is definitely not a good thing for a professional athlete, since there will always be periods when things don't go well. It most certainly prevents him from being of much value as a leader. Leadership requires that the leader have the confidence of his people in every situation. I doubt that there are many players who feel that they can look to Randy Moss for inspiration when things are going badly for the team.
                               
                              That character flaw is unfortunate, and it does limit the level to which he be praised for his overall play. He's now nearing the end of his career, so I think the odds are against a sudden change in that situation. That's a shame; because he is a decent, well-meaning guy, with tremendous physical talent.
                               
                              I remain in his corner because I don't think he can control the negative emotion that overtakes him in bad times. It's not intentional, and neither, IMO, is it selfish. He has a deep and genuine desire to win. The problem is that he doesn't have what it takes to consistently fight through adversity.
                               
                              All that said, despite my doubts, I hope he will somehow find the strength to improve, if not eliminate, his tendency to give up when facing major challenges. Better yet, let's hope that the team improves enough in all phases of the game, including the coaching, next season to avoid the kind of negative results that put out Randy's fire.

                              George

                               


                              From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Machado.Nicholas
                              Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:27 AM
                              To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Moss

                               

                              At 10:41 AM 1/13/2010 +0700, you wrote:


                              Overall, I'm still a Randy Moss fan. And, it appears to me, so is Tom Brady. I can't imagine Brady staying as close to him during games, and as aggressively supportive of him off the field, as he is, if Moss was a 'dog'.
                               

                              Hey George,

                              Yes TB stayed behind Moss right up to the Ravens game but these quotes after the game suggest to me that Brady is loosing patience with him. Not that they are only directed at Moss but they certainly include him IMO especially the second line.

                              “The reality is obviously the leadership on our team wasn’t where it needed to be. I’m speaking for myself. I was one of those leaders that certainly needs to do a better job in getting everybody on the same page and filling the void of those key players.”

                              "Other guys have to step in and fill those shoes," Brady said. "Guys who were here with those type of players have to take those lessons of leadership they learned from them and apply those to what was happening this season. ...

                              Another thing that concerns me is that after the Ravens game Brady was asked directly if he thought Moss gave his all. Brady ducked the question saying something to the effect that he trusted Moss. I haven't been able to find the exact quote but it was the Mike Reiss page. Didn't sound anything like Brady was happy with Moss' performance. If he was he would have said so. Combine that with other players saying Moss was slow getting back into the huddles, that he would only talk to Faulk after the game, that he seemed to be slow and careless in his routes etc. and I think there could be more of a problem.

                              Time will tell.

                              Harry


                              George
                              18c3c090.jpg
                               
                               
                               


                              From: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:patriotzip@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Scott
                              Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 8:25 AM
                              To: patriotzip@yahoogro ups.com
                              Subject: [patriotzip] Moss

                               

                              There's a lot of Moss bashing going on. Consider a few things though. Everyone seems to think he had the most absolutely awful season. To hear people talk, he was totally useless. It's like he did nothing.

                              Here's something to consider. Before Moss arrived, does anyone know what the team record was for touchdown catches in a season? Come on. This is a team that's boasted Troy Brown, Stanley Morgan, Harold Carmichael and Irving Fryar among others. Oh, and I'm including tight ends too. So that means guys like Ben Coates and Russ Francis. What's the most TDs any of those receivers ever caught in a year?

                              I'm sure some of you guys know. For those who don't, I'll answer. It was 12. That's it the best season catching touchdowns by any Patriot receiver ever was 12.

                              How many TDs did Moss catch this year?

                              He scored 13!

                              So even a banged up Randy Moss who draws double coverage virtually every game still managed to catch more TDs this season than any other Patriot receiver has ever had in a season. That's "dogging it?"

                              When I watch the guy play, I'm not seeing this lack of effort everyone is talking about. I'm seeing a guy who throws blocks and still manages to make a number of plays despite defenses being geared toward stopping him. On Sunday, didn't anyone else see the catch where he didn't go down and got hit by three defenders? The penalty everyone is talking about . . . If Moss wasn't trying, then why would he hit the guy? If he wasn't trying, he'd avoid contact and let the guy run right past him. Welker has been hit with some of those same penalties this year. Remember? So has Watson and Edleman and others. It happens a lot especially with all the screens the team runs because sometimes the timing is off and one of the other receivers starts blocking too early.

                              Besides, he's in a contract year next year. It may be his last chance for a big pay day before he gets too old. Even if he was the most selfish, self-centered player in the history of football, you'll probably see a maximum effort next year.

                              And people want to ship him off to another team? I hope that team isn't on New England's schedule next year.

                              Put things in perspective. It was a horrible loss. It doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water.

                              Scott Sheaffer





                            • Machado.Nicholas
                              With rumours flying around about Moss wanting back in the NFL I sincerely hope the Pats have learned their lesson that you can not make a silk purse out of a
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 15, 2012
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                                With rumours flying around about Moss wanting back in the NFL I sincerely
                                hope the Pats have learned their lesson that you can not make a silk purse
                                out of a sow's ear. Moss is wonderfully talented but also flawed to the
                                same extent. He is selfish, rude, arrogant, disruptive, never sorry or
                                apologetic, has absolutely no clue what the words humble or loyal mean, a
                                cancer anywhere he goes, changes his positions as fast as his mind and does
                                not have the discipline to control his emotions or himself.

                                The man is not and never was Patriots material.

                                One more thing, as he proved before he left he has lost a step and for a
                                one dimensional player like him that is a death sentence to his career.

                                I emphatically vote NO on Moss coming back to the Patriots.

                                Harry
                              • Susan Moore
                                Have you heard at all whether we would consider him or have any interest in him? ... From: Machado.Nicholas To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday,
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 15, 2012
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                                  Have you heard at all whether we would consider him or have any interest in him?
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:12 AM
                                  Subject: [patriotzip] Moss

                                   

                                  With rumours flying around about Moss wanting back in the NFL I sincerely
                                  hope the Pats have learned their lesson that you can not make a silk purse
                                  out of a sow's ear. Moss is wonderfully talented but also flawed to the
                                  same extent. He is selfish, rude, arrogant, disruptive, never sorry or
                                  apologetic, has absolutely no clue what the words humble or loyal mean, a
                                  cancer anywhere he goes, changes his positions as fast as his mind and does
                                  not have the discipline to control his emotions or himself.

                                  The man is not and never was Patriots material.

                                  One more thing, as he proved before he left he has lost a step and for a
                                  one dimensional player like him that is a death sentence to his career.

                                  I emphatically vote NO on Moss coming back to the Patriots.

                                  Harry

                                • Machado.Nicholas
                                  So far Teddy Bruschi and Michael Holly are in favour. How quickly some forget. 95-98% of NFL players would have realized it was way past time for a public
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 15, 2012
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                                    So far Teddy Bruschi and Michael Holly are in favour. How quickly some forget.

                                    95-98% of NFL players would have realized it was way past time for a public apology to a certain catering company in Minnesota but not Moss, no siree. Just because Moss took out his frustration - the frustration that Moss brought on himself - on the Vikings and anyone else in Minnesota that was nearby because they were so stupid as to offer him a second chance after the Pats gave up on him? Way beneath Moss to show anything at all except disdain and temper. Ask Brad Childress about Moss' loyalty, decency and sense of fair play.

                                    I am amazed that there is any support at all for this.

                                    Harry


                                    At 10:14 AM 2/15/2012 -0800, you wrote:
                                     

                                    Have you heard at all whether we would consider him or have any interest in him?
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Machado.Nicholas
                                    To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:12 AM
                                    Subject: [patriotzip] Moss

                                     

                                    With rumours flying around about Moss wanting back in the NFL I sincerely
                                    hope the Pats have learned their lesson that you can not make a silk purse
                                    out of a sow's ear. Moss is wonderfully talented but also flawed to the
                                    same extent. He is selfish, rude, arrogant, disruptive, never sorry or
                                    apologetic, has absolutely no clue what the words humble or loyal mean, a
                                    cancer anywhere he goes, changes his positions as fast as his mind and does
                                    not have the discipline to control his emotions or himself.

                                    The man is not and never was Patriots material.

                                    One more thing, as he proved before he left he has lost a step and for a
                                    one dimensional player like him that is a death sentence to his career.

                                    I emphatically vote NO on Moss coming back to the Patriots.

                                    Harry
                                  • chris dressler
                                    I only think it is worth a shot to see how he would do in camp... But only if it woudl mean the Pats would not miss out on other FA WR out there or a shot at
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 15, 2012
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                                      I only think it is worth a shot to see how he would do in camp... But only if it woudl mean the Pats would not miss out on other FA WR out there or a shot at Brandon Lloyd.

                                      From: Machado.Nicholas <machado.nicholas@...>
                                      To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:04 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Moss

                                       
                                      So far Teddy Bruschi and Michael Holly are in favour. How quickly some forget.

                                      95-98% of NFL players would have realized it was way past time for a public apology to a certain catering company in Minnesota but not Moss, no siree. Just because Moss took out his frustration - the frustration that Moss brought on himself - on the Vikings and anyone else in Minnesota that was nearby because they were so stupid as to offer him a second chance after the Pats gave up on him? Way beneath Moss to show anything at all except disdain and temper. Ask Brad Childress about Moss' loyalty, decency and sense of fair play.

                                      I am amazed that there is any support at all for this.

                                      Harry


                                      At 10:14 AM 2/15/2012 -0800, you wrote:
                                       

                                      Have you heard at all whether we would consider him or have any interest in him?
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Machado.Nicholas
                                      To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:12 AM
                                      Subject: [patriotzip] Moss

                                       

                                      With rumours flying around about Moss wanting back in the NFL I sincerely
                                      hope the Pats have learned their lesson that you can not make a silk purse
                                      out of a sow's ear. Moss is wonderfully talented but also flawed to the
                                      same extent. He is selfish, rude, arrogant, disruptive, never sorry or
                                      apologetic, has absolutely no clue what the words humble or loyal mean, a
                                      cancer anywhere he goes, changes his positions as fast as his mind and does
                                      not have the discipline to control his emotions or himself.

                                      The man is not and never was Patriots material.

                                      One more thing, as he proved before he left he has lost a step and for a
                                      one dimensional player like him that is a death sentence to his career.

                                      I emphatically vote NO on Moss coming back to the Patriots.

                                      Harry


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