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Re: [panflute-world] Vibrato method.......................

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  • Kevin
    ... What kind of soup do you recommend? Something with bamboo shoots in it? ;-) Kevin
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 1 8:06 AM
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      Brad White wrote:

      > To build up my left hand, which seemed weaker, I
      > did
      > some light weight training. For me this meant a can of soup which I
      > waved
      > in a vibrato like manner while watching TV..

      What kind of soup do you recommend? Something with bamboo shoots in it?
      ;-)

      Kevin
    • Erik
      In my opinion, I don t see why strength training, in any amount, would benefit vibrato technique. While there s nothing wrong with this, I do feel that
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 1 9:41 AM
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        In my opinion, I don't see why strength training, in any amount,
        would benefit vibrato technique. While there's nothing wrong with
        this, I do feel that vibrato is originated from the elbow as the
        fulcrum to move the lower arm and hand together.

        --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, Kevin <kbudd@i...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Brad White wrote:
        >
        > > To build up my left hand, which seemed weaker, I
        > > did
        > > some light weight training. For me this meant a can of soup
        which I
        > > waved
        > > in a vibrato like manner while watching TV..
        >
        > What kind of soup do you recommend? Something with bamboo shoots
        in it?
        > ;-)
        >
        > Kevin
      • Brad White
        ... It still takes muscles to make the motion. I remember when I first started to try it, I didn t have the motion. My arm felt tired from doing it. It was
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 1 10:05 AM
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          On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 06:41 AM, Erik wrote:

          > In my opinion, I don't see why strength training, in any amount,
          > would benefit vibrato technique. While there's nothing wrong with
          > this, I do feel that vibrato is originated from the elbow as the
          > fulcrum to move the lower arm and hand together.

          It still takes muscles to make the motion. I remember when I first
          started to try it, I didn't have the motion. My arm felt tired from
          doing it. It was not something I was used to doing. I discovered
          that by taking a unopened soup can and making the vibrato motion while
          watching a TV show it totally changed my progress. It really worked
          for me and I am sharing that for anyone in the same position. It's not
          lifting heavy weights, but the smooth motion with a very light weight
          that seemed to do the trick.

          Today I have a beautiful vibrato that I am extremely happy with. I
          have control of different shadings and nuances in the vibrato. That
          requires control over the small movements of the arm. It's muscles
          that do the moving. And I owe it all to minestrone soup :) ..... brad
        • Erik
          I agree. I m not finding fault with your methods. Only you know what needs to be done to get results. I was saying in general that adding strength to any
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 1 11:13 AM
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            I agree. I'm not finding fault with your methods. Only you know
            what needs to be done to get results. I was saying in general that
            adding strength to any part of the arm or hand to do vibrato usully
            does not make a difference. What needs to be done is doing the
            motion correctly with what one does have regardless of "how much"
            one has. Of course, I am speaking from my point of view only. In
            my case, strengthening my hand or arm will honestly not affect my
            vibrato. Good job Brad!

            --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, Brad White <bwhite@p...>
            wrote:
            >
            > > It still takes muscles to make the motion. I remember when I
            first
            > started to try it, I didn't have the motion. My arm felt tired
            from
            > doing it. It was not something I was used to doing. I
            discovered
            > that by taking a unopened soup can and making the vibrato motion
            while
            > watching a TV show it totally changed my progress. It really
            worked
            > for me and I am sharing that for anyone in the same position.
            It's not
            > lifting heavy weights, but the smooth motion with a very light
            weight
            > that seemed to do the trick.
            >
            > Today I have a beautiful vibrato that I am extremely happy with.
            I
            > have control of different shadings and nuances in the vibrato.
            That
            > requires control over the small movements of the arm. It's
            muscles
            > that do the moving. And I owe it all to minestrone soup :) .....
            brad
          • Brad White
            ... Hi Erik, Its not for the arm or hand... its for the smooth vibrato motion that is needed. Its for fine control of the muscles. I don t think we are
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 1 11:29 AM
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              On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 08:13 AM, Erik wrote:

              > Of course, I am speaking from my point of view only. In
              > my case, strengthening my hand or arm will honestly not affect my
              > vibrato. Good job Brad!


              Hi Erik,

              Its not for the arm or hand... its for the "smooth vibrato motion" that
              is needed. Its for "fine control" of the muscles. I don't think we
              are talking about the same thing. How smoothly can you go from small
              to larger motions..... fast to slow and back... At your stage you are
              beyond needing this. I am talking to someone just starting out. Its
              something to do when watching tv for a few minutes. It seemed to make
              a big difference for me. I gained alot more control over what I was
              doing. There are lots of ways to practice away from the panflute. One
              can do tonguing exercises while driving.. And I don't mean sticking
              your tongue out at drivers who get in your way :) ... brad
            • Erik
              Again Brad, I m not finding fault with your methods. You do what works for you and you claim you have been successful... that is wonderful! :) What do you
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 1 1:03 PM
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                Again Brad, I'm not finding fault with your methods. You do what
                works for you and you claim you have been successful... that is
                wonderful! :) What do you use to create 'smooth vibration
                motion'? :) I was taught to create vibrato by only moving the
                lower arm using the elbow as the fulcrum... the upper arm does not
                move in this case (Brad, I'm not suggesting that your upper arm does
                move if that is not the case--even if it did, it is your style and
                it works for you--I cannot find fault in something that works--nor
                am I qualified to). Apparently we are not talking about the same
                thing, two issues here, vibrato technique on the panflute and then
                practicing methods 'away' from the panflute. I respond hoping that
                it is helpful to all levels of users, bearing that in mind. If I
                misinterpreted your post I apologize.

                --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, Brad White <bwhite@p...>
                wrote:
                > Hi Erik,
                >
                > Its not for the arm or hand... its for the "smooth vibrato motion"
                that
                > is needed. Its for "fine control" of the muscles. I don't think
                we
                > are talking about the same thing. How smoothly can you go from
                small
                > to larger motions..... fast to slow and back... At your stage you
                are
                > beyond needing this. I am talking to someone just starting out.
                Its
                > something to do when watching tv for a few minutes. It seemed to
                make
                > a big difference for me. I gained alot more control over what I
                was
                > doing. There are lots of ways to practice away from the
                panflute. One
                > can do tonguing exercises while driving.. And I don't mean
                sticking
                > your tongue out at drivers who get in your way :) ... brad
              • Brad White
                ... Hi Erick, It s fine, I am not taking offense.. just trying to maybe explain better. What do you think the advantage is to keeping the upper arm still?
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 1 1:45 PM
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                  On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 10:03 AM, Erik wrote:

                  > I was taught to create vibrato by only moving the
                  > lower arm using the elbow as the fulcrum... the upper arm does not
                  > move in this case.

                  Hi Erick,

                  It's fine, I am not taking offense.. just trying to maybe explain
                  better.

                  What do you think the advantage is to keeping the upper arm still?
                  Maybe I don't understand, but if you keep the upper arm still then the
                  motion comes from the shoulder arm socket. Doesn't that produce a more
                  up and down motion in stead of in and out? Is that what you are
                  saying? I am sure it works for you if you "claim" it does :) ... brad
                • Erik
                  Hi Bradd, This is not what I believe I said. The upper arm to me is from the shoulder to the elbow. The lower arm to me is the elbow to the wrist. Then
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 1 2:14 PM
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                    Hi Bradd,

                    This is not what I believe I said. The upper arm to me is from the
                    shoulder to the elbow. The lower arm to me is the elbow to the
                    wrist. Then there's the hand, part of the lower arm. When I do
                    vibrato, only the lower arm moves in and out, as does the hand
                    automatically. The hand remains still on the arm as there is no
                    wrist action. The upper arm does not move and the elbow hangs
                    freely and comfortably, not too close to the body or held out like a
                    wing. The elbow is about a hand-length away from the body. This is
                    how I do it and it seems to work well for me. I enjoy your vibrato
                    Brad from your recordings. You are obviously doing something right
                    that works for you and your vibrato sounds wonderful. To answer
                    your question, keeping the upper arm still provides better control
                    and unnecessary and undesirable movement of the panflute. Just my
                    opinion. Somebody else may do different and it works for them.

                    --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, Brad White <bwhite@p...>
                    wrote:
                    > Hi Erick,
                    >
                    > > What do you think the advantage is to keeping the upper arm
                    still?
                    > Maybe I don't understand, but if you keep the upper arm still
                    then the
                    > motion comes from the shoulder arm socket. Doesn't that produce a
                    more
                    > up and down motion in stead of in and out? Is that what you are
                    > saying? I am sure it works for you if you "claim" it does :) ...
                    brad
                  • Brad White
                    ... Hi Erik, Sorry, I think I misunderstood you. I am saying the same thing as you.... That is why I found the little light weights worked so well. I am sure
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 1 2:38 PM
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                      On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 10:03 AM, Erik wrote:

                      > I was taught to create vibrato by only moving the
                      > lower arm using the elbow as the fulcrum... the upper arm does not
                      > move in this case

                      Hi Erik,

                      Sorry, I think I misunderstood you. I am saying the same thing as
                      you.... That is why I found the little light weights worked so well.
                      I am sure you don't need it now... but just for fun try holding a can
                      of soup and doing the vibrato motion. See how slow you can start and
                      then incrementally increase the speed and back down again. Again this
                      is when I was not playing the panflute but just watching TV or reading.
                      It seemed like a good way to get a little extra practice when you were
                      not playing panflute.

                      Maybe someone in an office could do something like that while working,
                      maybe with a small book. When I was a teenager and doing jobs I
                      hated, I use to do things like this to help my technique. I use to
                      count money in a bank vault by feeding the bills into a machine. I
                      would check out hundreds of thousands of dollars and feed them into
                      this machine. I got very quick at it, and each time the bill would go
                      in, it would click. So I started double tonguing to each click.
                      Very soon my double tonguing was so fast and strong. I think it has
                      helped me the rest of my life... brad
                    • Erik
                      I always like reading interesting creative ways to practice away from the panflute to help develop technique and skills. I understand now what you meant
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 1 3:02 PM
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                        I always like reading interesting creative ways to practice 'away'
                        from the panflute to help develop technique and skills. I
                        understand now what you meant Brad by using the can to simulate the
                        panflute to practice vibrato technique. But, as you can see, this
                        is not what I originally responded to which I believe talked more
                        about muscle strengthening... a different issue. Again, sorry for
                        the confusion.



                        --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, Brad White <bwhite@p...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 10:03 AM, Erik wrote:
                        >
                        > > I was taught to create vibrato by only moving the
                        > > lower arm using the elbow as the fulcrum... the upper arm does
                        not
                        > > move in this case
                        >
                        > Hi Erik,
                        >
                        > Sorry, I think I misunderstood you. I am saying the same thing as
                        > you.... That is why I found the little light weights worked so
                        well.
                        > I am sure you don't need it now... but just for fun try holding a
                        can
                        > of soup and doing the vibrato motion. See how slow you can start
                        and
                        > then incrementally increase the speed and back down again. Again
                        this
                        > is when I was not playing the panflute but just watching TV or
                        reading.
                        > It seemed like a good way to get a little extra practice when
                        you were
                        > not playing panflute.
                        >
                        > Maybe someone in an office could do something like that while
                        working,
                        > maybe with a small book. When I was a teenager and doing jobs I
                        > hated, I use to do things like this to help my technique. I use
                        to
                        > count money in a bank vault by feeding the bills into a machine.
                        I
                        > would check out hundreds of thousands of dollars and feed them
                        into
                        > this machine. I got very quick at it, and each time the bill
                        would go
                        > in, it would click. So I started double tonguing to each
                        click.
                        > Very soon my double tonguing was so fast and strong. I think it
                        has
                        > helped me the rest of my life... brad
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