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Re: Acousticoils

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  • george700dl
    Hi Thomas, So have you done this on a panflute? What were your results? George
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 1, 2011
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      Hi Thomas,

      So have you done this on a panflute? What were your results?

      George

      --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Kevin
      >
      > This isn't all that "new". The ancient Chinese and Japanese flutemakers used a similar technique to improve acoustic impedance (standing-wave/backpressure). Here is an example diagram of a Nohkan Flute design.{scroll down to diagram}
      >
      > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/nohkan-e.htm
      >
      > I'm sure the acoustics of the modern devices is slightly superior, but an amateur woodwind maker could rig a homemade device with ease. It is the placement of this device at the prime anti-node that is the key to it's success. Quite some time ago I posted here about a similar throated panflute design that would improve tone and response times. (The placement of the throat in a Panpipe tube is located at 0.618 of the length of the tube measured up from the inner plug face.)
      >
      > Thomas Hastay.
      >
      > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Take a look at these
      > > >
      > > > http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/woodwind.html
      > > >
      > > > I am guessing that they have a similar effect to inserts or rings inside the top
      > > > of pan flute tubes, making them more acoustically efficient.
      > > >
      > > > Kevin
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Paul H
      Hi Thomas Do you have more tech specs on the Placement of the throat for panpipe? I mean: is 0.618 the middle/top/bottom of the throat? how long is the throat?
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 1, 2011
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        Hi Thomas

        Do you have more tech specs on the Placement of the throat for panpipe? I mean:
        is 0.618 the middle/top/bottom of the throat?
        how long is the throat?
        by what percentage does it decrease the tube diameter? and
        does the tube length need subsequent adjustment?

        Lot of questions there !!

        all the best

        Paul

        --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Kevin
        >
        > This isn't all that "new". The ancient Chinese and Japanese flutemakers used a similar technique to improve acoustic impedance (standing-wave/backpressure). Here is an example diagram of a Nohkan Flute design.{scroll down to diagram}
        >
        > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/nohkan-e.htm
        >
        > I'm sure the acoustics of the modern devices is slightly superior, but an amateur woodwind maker could rig a homemade device with ease. It is the placement of this device at the prime anti-node that is the key to it's success. Quite some time ago I posted here about a similar throated panflute design that would improve tone and response times. (The placement of the throat in a Panpipe tube is located at 0.618 of the length of the tube measured up from the inner plug face.)
        >
        > Thomas Hastay.
        >
        > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Take a look at these
        > > >
        > > > http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/woodwind.html
        > > >
        > > > I am guessing that they have a similar effect to inserts or rings inside the top
        > > > of pan flute tubes, making them more acoustically efficient.
        > > >
        > > > Kevin
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • george700dl
        I screwed up in making mine, since I glued them together instead of using a twine. But at least I was able to bend them, making them fluent :) If I could
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 1, 2011
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          I screwed up in making mine, since I glued them together instead of using a twine. But at least I was able to bend them, making them "fluent" :)

          If I could only find a piano player accompany me, since that is, like, the best and stuff.

          --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@... wrote:
          >
          > Some students put together a simple "prezi" presentation on the pan flute.
          >
          > http://prezi.com/fskdjuy2css-/pan-flutes/
          >
          > Please note names listed.
          >
          >
          > Kevin Budd
          >
        • Tommytroll
          Sorry for the late reply Paul... In every panflute tube there is a place of highest vibration , called an anti-node. This can vary with each pipe because of
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 6, 2011
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            Sorry for the late reply Paul...

            In every panflute tube there is a "place of highest vibration", called an anti-node. This can vary with each pipe because of small diameter differences and slight taper from top to bottom. If a ring of wax/wood etc. is placed at this point of the inner tube diameter, you will create an artificial "standing sound wave". Because the Ring slows down the in/out flow of air, it allows the Vacume/Pressure area just below the tube mouth, more time to create Vacume/Pressure and therefore more acoustic energy with less breath. The response time for the tube to sound will also be much faster (quicker half notes).

            Measure the tube with a chopstick or small dowel placed inside the tube. make a mark at the lip edge. Take this measurement and multiply it by 0.618 and make a mark with the result, measured from the bottom of the stick. When you place it back in the tube it will indicate the "sweet spot" anti-node point.

            You can experiment with ring thicknesses between 1mm to 3mm until you find the best result for each tube. Beeswax, Rolled paper rings waxed in place or even insert industrial rubber "O" rings if they expand tightly in the tube with no bumps or kinks (these sometimes work very well!)

            A throat restriction produces greater acoustic impedance and faster response time in panflute tubes. Try some experiments!(I can't give away all my secrets ;)

            Thomas Hastay.

            --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Thomas
            >
            > Do you have more tech specs on the Placement of the throat for panpipe? I mean:
            > is 0.618 the middle/top/bottom of the throat?
            > how long is the throat?
            > by what percentage does it decrease the tube diameter? and
            > does the tube length need subsequent adjustment?
            >
            > Lot of questions there !!
            >
            > all the best
            >
            > Paul
            >
            > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Kevin
            > >
            > > This isn't all that "new". The ancient Chinese and Japanese flutemakers used a similar technique to improve acoustic impedance (standing-wave/backpressure). Here is an example diagram of a Nohkan Flute design.{scroll down to diagram}
            > >
            > > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/nohkan-e.htm
            > >
            > > I'm sure the acoustics of the modern devices is slightly superior, but an amateur woodwind maker could rig a homemade device with ease. It is the placement of this device at the prime anti-node that is the key to it's success. Quite some time ago I posted here about a similar throated panflute design that would improve tone and response times. (The placement of the throat in a Panpipe tube is located at 0.618 of the length of the tube measured up from the inner plug face.)
            > >
            > > Thomas Hastay.
            > >
            > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@ wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Take a look at these
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/woodwind.html
            > > > >
            > > > > I am guessing that they have a similar effect to inserts or rings inside the top
            > > > > of pan flute tubes, making them more acoustically efficient.
            > > > >
            > > > > Kevin
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Paul H
            Wow that is a surprise! It is kind of counterintuitive to put the resistance at the place of HIGHEST vibration. That is two thirds of the way down. I will give
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 7, 2011
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              Wow that is a surprise! It is kind of counterintuitive to put the resistance at the place of HIGHEST vibration. That is two thirds of the way down. I will give it a try.


              --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sorry for the late reply Paul...
              >
              > In every panflute tube there is a "place of highest vibration", called an anti-node. This can vary with each pipe because of small diameter differences and slight taper from top to bottom. If a ring of wax/wood etc. is placed at this point of the inner tube diameter, you will create an artificial "standing sound wave". Because the Ring slows down the in/out flow of air, it allows the Vacume/Pressure area just below the tube mouth, more time to create Vacume/Pressure and therefore more acoustic energy with less breath. The response time for the tube to sound will also be much faster (quicker half notes).
              >
              > Measure the tube with a chopstick or small dowel placed inside the tube. make a mark at the lip edge. Take this measurement and multiply it by 0.618 and make a mark with the result, measured from the bottom of the stick. When you place it back in the tube it will indicate the "sweet spot" anti-node point.
              >
              > You can experiment with ring thicknesses between 1mm to 3mm until you find the best result for each tube. Beeswax, Rolled paper rings waxed in place or even insert industrial rubber "O" rings if they expand tightly in the tube with no bumps or kinks (these sometimes work very well!)
              >
              > A throat restriction produces greater acoustic impedance and faster response time in panflute tubes. Try some experiments!(I can't give away all my secrets ;)
              >
              > Thomas Hastay.
              >
              > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Thomas
              > >
              > > Do you have more tech specs on the Placement of the throat for panpipe? I mean:
              > > is 0.618 the middle/top/bottom of the throat?
              > > how long is the throat?
              > > by what percentage does it decrease the tube diameter? and
              > > does the tube length need subsequent adjustment?
              > >
              > > Lot of questions there !!
              > >
              > > all the best
              > >
              > > Paul
              > >
              > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Kevin
              > > >
              > > > This isn't all that "new". The ancient Chinese and Japanese flutemakers used a similar technique to improve acoustic impedance (standing-wave/backpressure). Here is an example diagram of a Nohkan Flute design.{scroll down to diagram}
              > > >
              > > > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/nohkan-e.htm
              > > >
              > > > I'm sure the acoustics of the modern devices is slightly superior, but an amateur woodwind maker could rig a homemade device with ease. It is the placement of this device at the prime anti-node that is the key to it's success. Quite some time ago I posted here about a similar throated panflute design that would improve tone and response times. (The placement of the throat in a Panpipe tube is located at 0.618 of the length of the tube measured up from the inner plug face.)
              > > >
              > > > Thomas Hastay.
              > > >
              > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@ wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Take a look at these
              > > > > >
              > > > > > http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/woodwind.html
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I am guessing that they have a similar effect to inserts or rings inside the top
              > > > > > of pan flute tubes, making them more acoustically efficient.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Kevin
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Tommytroll
              nope! sorry,lost in translation! ;) 2/3rds (0.618%) up from the inner plug face or 1/3rd down (0.381%) from the inner lip = the sweet spot.
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 7, 2011
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                nope! sorry,lost in translation! ;) 2/3rds (0.618%) up from the inner plug face or 1/3rd down (0.381%) from the inner lip = the sweet spot.

                --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@...> wrote:
                >
                > Wow that is a surprise! It is kind of counterintuitive to put the resistance at the place of HIGHEST vibration. That is two thirds of the way down. I will give it a try.
                >
                >
                > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Sorry for the late reply Paul...
                > >
                > > In every panflute tube there is a "place of highest vibration", called an anti-node. This can vary with each pipe because of small diameter differences and slight taper from top to bottom. If a ring of wax/wood etc. is placed at this point of the inner tube diameter, you will create an artificial "standing sound wave". Because the Ring slows down the in/out flow of air, it allows the Vacume/Pressure area just below the tube mouth, more time to create Vacume/Pressure and therefore more acoustic energy with less breath. The response time for the tube to sound will also be much faster (quicker half notes).
                > >
                > > Measure the tube with a chopstick or small dowel placed inside the tube. make a mark at the lip edge. Take this measurement and multiply it by 0.618 and make a mark with the result, measured from the bottom of the stick. When you place it back in the tube it will indicate the "sweet spot" anti-node point.
                > >
                > > You can experiment with ring thicknesses between 1mm to 3mm until you find the best result for each tube. Beeswax, Rolled paper rings waxed in place or even insert industrial rubber "O" rings if they expand tightly in the tube with no bumps or kinks (these sometimes work very well!)
                > >
                > > A throat restriction produces greater acoustic impedance and faster response time in panflute tubes. Try some experiments!(I can't give away all my secrets ;)
                > >
                > > Thomas Hastay.
                > >
                > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Thomas
                > > >
                > > > Do you have more tech specs on the Placement of the throat for panpipe? I mean:
                > > > is 0.618 the middle/top/bottom of the throat?
                > > > how long is the throat?
                > > > by what percentage does it decrease the tube diameter? and
                > > > does the tube length need subsequent adjustment?
                > > >
                > > > Lot of questions there !!
                > > >
                > > > all the best
                > > >
                > > > Paul
                > > >
                > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Kevin
                > > > >
                > > > > This isn't all that "new". The ancient Chinese and Japanese flutemakers used a similar technique to improve acoustic impedance (standing-wave/backpressure). Here is an example diagram of a Nohkan Flute design.{scroll down to diagram}
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/nohkan-e.htm
                > > > >
                > > > > I'm sure the acoustics of the modern devices is slightly superior, but an amateur woodwind maker could rig a homemade device with ease. It is the placement of this device at the prime anti-node that is the key to it's success. Quite some time ago I posted here about a similar throated panflute design that would improve tone and response times. (The placement of the throat in a Panpipe tube is located at 0.618 of the length of the tube measured up from the inner plug face.)
                > > > >
                > > > > Thomas Hastay.
                > > > >
                > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@ wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Take a look at these
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/woodwind.html
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I am guessing that they have a similar effect to inserts or rings inside the top
                > > > > > > of pan flute tubes, making them more acoustically efficient.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Kevin
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • george700dl
                Shouldn t the pipe length is defined by the audience edge instead of the lip edge? The lip edge can vary quite a bit while playing, since the player job is
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 7, 2011
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                  Shouldn't the pipe length is defined by the audience edge instead of the lip edge? The lip "edge" can vary quite a bit while playing, since the player job is partially to extend that side with his/her embouchure.

                  Definitely worth experimenting with, since it's easily reversible...

                  George

                  --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > nope! sorry,lost in translation! ;) 2/3rds (0.618%) up from the inner plug face or 1/3rd down (0.381%) from the inner lip = the sweet spot.
                  >
                  > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Wow that is a surprise! It is kind of counterintuitive to put the resistance at the place of HIGHEST vibration. That is two thirds of the way down. I will give it a try.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Sorry for the late reply Paul...
                  > > >
                  > > > In every panflute tube there is a "place of highest vibration", called an anti-node. This can vary with each pipe because of small diameter differences and slight taper from top to bottom. If a ring of wax/wood etc. is placed at this point of the inner tube diameter, you will create an artificial "standing sound wave". Because the Ring slows down the in/out flow of air, it allows the Vacume/Pressure area just below the tube mouth, more time to create Vacume/Pressure and therefore more acoustic energy with less breath. The response time for the tube to sound will also be much faster (quicker half notes).
                  > > >
                  > > > Measure the tube with a chopstick or small dowel placed inside the tube. make a mark at the lip edge. Take this measurement and multiply it by 0.618 and make a mark with the result, measured from the bottom of the stick. When you place it back in the tube it will indicate the "sweet spot" anti-node point.
                  > > >
                  > > > You can experiment with ring thicknesses between 1mm to 3mm until you find the best result for each tube. Beeswax, Rolled paper rings waxed in place or even insert industrial rubber "O" rings if they expand tightly in the tube with no bumps or kinks (these sometimes work very well!)
                  > > >
                  > > > A throat restriction produces greater acoustic impedance and faster response time in panflute tubes. Try some experiments!(I can't give away all my secrets ;)
                  > > >
                  > > > Thomas Hastay.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Thomas
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Do you have more tech specs on the Placement of the throat for panpipe? I mean:
                  > > > > is 0.618 the middle/top/bottom of the throat?
                  > > > > how long is the throat?
                  > > > > by what percentage does it decrease the tube diameter? and
                  > > > > does the tube length need subsequent adjustment?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Lot of questions there !!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > all the best
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Paul
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi Kevin
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > This isn't all that "new". The ancient Chinese and Japanese flutemakers used a similar technique to improve acoustic impedance (standing-wave/backpressure). Here is an example diagram of a Nohkan Flute design.{scroll down to diagram}
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/nohkan-e.htm
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I'm sure the acoustics of the modern devices is slightly superior, but an amateur woodwind maker could rig a homemade device with ease. It is the placement of this device at the prime anti-node that is the key to it's success. Quite some time ago I posted here about a similar throated panflute design that would improve tone and response times. (The placement of the throat in a Panpipe tube is located at 0.618 of the length of the tube measured up from the inner plug face.)
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thomas Hastay.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@ wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Take a look at these
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/woodwind.html
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > I am guessing that they have a similar effect to inserts or rings inside the top
                  > > > > > > > of pan flute tubes, making them more acoustically efficient.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Kevin
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • kbudd@yorku.ca
                  I am told that Andean players look for a bottle tube, a natural cane or bamboo one that is smaller toward the very top end for the same reason. Kevin
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 7, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I am told that Andean players look for a "bottle" tube, a natural cane or bamboo
                    one that is smaller toward the very top end for the same reason.

                    Kevin

                    Quoting george700dl <george700dl@...>:

                    > Any the pipe length is defined by the audience edge I assume, right?
                    >
                    > Definitely worth experimenting with, since it's easily reversible...
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > nope! sorry,lost in translation! ;) 2/3rds (0.618%) up from the inner plug
                    > face or 1/3rd down (0.381%) from the inner lip = the sweet spot.
                    > >
                    > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Wow that is a surprise! It is kind of counterintuitive to put the
                    > resistance at the place of HIGHEST vibration. That is two thirds of the way
                    > down. I will give it a try.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Sorry for the late reply Paul...
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In every panflute tube there is a "place of highest vibration", called
                    > an anti-node. This can vary with each pipe because of small diameter
                    > differences and slight taper from top to bottom. If a ring of wax/wood etc.
                    > is placed at this point of the inner tube diameter, you will create an
                    > artificial "standing sound wave". Because the Ring slows down the in/out flow
                    > of air, it allows the Vacume/Pressure area just below the tube mouth, more
                    > time to create Vacume/Pressure and therefore more acoustic energy with less
                    > breath. The response time for the tube to sound will also be much faster
                    > (quicker half notes).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Measure the tube with a chopstick or small dowel placed inside the
                    > tube. make a mark at the lip edge. Take this measurement and multiply it by
                    > 0.618 and make a mark with the result, measured from the bottom of the stick.
                    > When you place it back in the tube it will indicate the "sweet spot"
                    > anti-node point.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > You can experiment with ring thicknesses between 1mm to 3mm until you
                    > find the best result for each tube. Beeswax, Rolled paper rings waxed in
                    > place or even insert industrial rubber "O" rings if they expand tightly in
                    > the tube with no bumps or kinks (these sometimes work very well!)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > A throat restriction produces greater acoustic impedance and faster
                    > response time in panflute tubes. Try some experiments!(I can't give away all
                    > my secrets ;)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thomas Hastay.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hi Thomas
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Do you have more tech specs on the Placement of the throat for
                    > panpipe? I mean:
                    > > > > > is 0.618 the middle/top/bottom of the throat?
                    > > > > > how long is the throat?
                    > > > > > by what percentage does it decrease the tube diameter? and
                    > > > > > does the tube length need subsequent adjustment?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Lot of questions there !!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > all the best
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Paul
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Hi Kevin
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > This isn't all that "new". The ancient Chinese and Japanese
                    > flutemakers used a similar technique to improve acoustic impedance
                    > (standing-wave/backpressure). Here is an example diagram of a Nohkan Flute
                    > design.{scroll down to diagram}
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/nohkan-e.htm
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I'm sure the acoustics of the modern devices is slightly superior,
                    > but an amateur woodwind maker could rig a homemade device with ease. It is
                    > the placement of this device at the prime anti-node that is the key to it's
                    > success. Quite some time ago I posted here about a similar throated panflute
                    > design that would improve tone and response times. (The placement of the
                    > throat in a Panpipe tube is located at 0.618 of the length of the tube
                    > measured up from the inner plug face.)
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Thomas Hastay.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@ wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Take a look at these
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/woodwind.html
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > I am guessing that they have a similar effect to inserts or
                    > rings inside the top
                    > > > > > > > > of pan flute tubes, making them more acoustically efficient.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Kevin
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • george700dl
                    Maybe I just got lucky with my selection of bamboo + manufacturing process, because I have no issues with the ease of producing strong tone. When you get to
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 7, 2011
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                      Maybe I just got lucky with my selection of bamboo + manufacturing process, because I have no issues with the ease of producing strong tone.

                      When you get to the sub-bass level, maybe that's where you need extra help. But an alto? Non-issue. Still worth experimenting though - can't hurt if it's reversible (you can take those inserts out). If someone tries this, can we hear some before and after examples?

                      George


                      --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@... wrote:
                      >
                      > I am told that Andean players look for a "bottle" tube, a natural cane or bamboo
                      > one that is smaller toward the very top end for the same reason.
                      >
                      > Kevin
                      >
                      > Quoting george700dl <george700dl@...>:
                      >
                      > > Any the pipe length is defined by the audience edge I assume, right?
                      > >
                      > > Definitely worth experimenting with, since it's easily reversible...
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > nope! sorry,lost in translation! ;) 2/3rds (0.618%) up from the inner plug
                      > > face or 1/3rd down (0.381%) from the inner lip = the sweet spot.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Wow that is a surprise! It is kind of counterintuitive to put the
                      > > resistance at the place of HIGHEST vibration. That is two thirds of the way
                      > > down. I will give it a try.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Sorry for the late reply Paul...
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In every panflute tube there is a "place of highest vibration", called
                      > > an anti-node. This can vary with each pipe because of small diameter
                      > > differences and slight taper from top to bottom. If a ring of wax/wood etc.
                      > > is placed at this point of the inner tube diameter, you will create an
                      > > artificial "standing sound wave". Because the Ring slows down the in/out flow
                      > > of air, it allows the Vacume/Pressure area just below the tube mouth, more
                      > > time to create Vacume/Pressure and therefore more acoustic energy with less
                      > > breath. The response time for the tube to sound will also be much faster
                      > > (quicker half notes).
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Measure the tube with a chopstick or small dowel placed inside the
                      > > tube. make a mark at the lip edge. Take this measurement and multiply it by
                      > > 0.618 and make a mark with the result, measured from the bottom of the stick.
                      > > When you place it back in the tube it will indicate the "sweet spot"
                      > > anti-node point.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > You can experiment with ring thicknesses between 1mm to 3mm until you
                      > > find the best result for each tube. Beeswax, Rolled paper rings waxed in
                      > > place or even insert industrial rubber "O" rings if they expand tightly in
                      > > the tube with no bumps or kinks (these sometimes work very well!)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > A throat restriction produces greater acoustic impedance and faster
                      > > response time in panflute tubes. Try some experiments!(I can't give away all
                      > > my secrets ;)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thomas Hastay.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Hi Thomas
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Do you have more tech specs on the Placement of the throat for
                      > > panpipe? I mean:
                      > > > > > > is 0.618 the middle/top/bottom of the throat?
                      > > > > > > how long is the throat?
                      > > > > > > by what percentage does it decrease the tube diameter? and
                      > > > > > > does the tube length need subsequent adjustment?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Lot of questions there !!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > all the best
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Paul
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Hi Kevin
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > This isn't all that "new". The ancient Chinese and Japanese
                      > > flutemakers used a similar technique to improve acoustic impedance
                      > > (standing-wave/backpressure). Here is an example diagram of a Nohkan Flute
                      > > design.{scroll down to diagram}
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/nohkan-e.htm
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I'm sure the acoustics of the modern devices is slightly superior,
                      > > but an amateur woodwind maker could rig a homemade device with ease. It is
                      > > the placement of this device at the prime anti-node that is the key to it's
                      > > success. Quite some time ago I posted here about a similar throated panflute
                      > > design that would improve tone and response times. (The placement of the
                      > > throat in a Panpipe tube is located at 0.618 of the length of the tube
                      > > measured up from the inner plug face.)
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Thomas Hastay.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@ wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Take a look at these
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/woodwind.html
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > I am guessing that they have a similar effect to inserts or
                      > > rings inside the top
                      > > > > > > > > > of pan flute tubes, making them more acoustically efficient.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Kevin
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Paul H
                      Bottle shapes sound great if the shoulder is angled right, and the neck/body ratio is about 1:2. I have tried various combinations with two closely fitting
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 9, 2011
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                        Bottle shapes sound great if the shoulder is angled right, and the neck/body ratio is about 1:2. I have tried various combinations with two closely fitting plastic tubes (one partially inserted inside the other) to test the tuning of the harmonics.

                        One pair I made gave C2 + Bb3 with the small tube uppermost, and F2 + A3 when reversed, a perfect dominant-tonic cadence. I used the flat of the palm to close the bottom (obviously).

                        From this I learned that a bottle profile spreads the distance between partials, while conversely the vase profile narrows the gap. Since the first overblow (at the 12th) on a cylindrical tube is usually flat, and makes the panflute wearisome to listen to for some people, a slight bottle profile is useful in bringing that partial into tune, and bringing the music to more folks !!!

                        The one drawback of bottle profile for panflutists is that it makes it slightly harder work to get those semitones by lipping down, as the neck of the bottle has already done that for you - so to speak

                        I have made a 3d design using carefully calibrated bottle profile over a 3 1/2 octave range, but as each prototype costs me 500 USD it would take me a couple grand to find the right diameter ratio and get the thing in tune, money which I don't have right now.

                        So you'll just have to wait for the next panpipe revolution, or "panpipe spring" - to use the current term.

                        All the best

                        Paul



                        --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@... wrote:
                        >
                        > I am told that Andean players look for a "bottle" tube, a natural cane or bamboo
                        > one that is smaller toward the very top end for the same reason.
                        >
                        > Kevin
                        >
                        > Quoting george700dl <george700dl@...>:
                        >
                        > > Any the pipe length is defined by the audience edge I assume, right?
                        > >
                        > > Definitely worth experimenting with, since it's easily reversible...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > nope! sorry,lost in translation! ;) 2/3rds (0.618%) up from the inner plug
                        > > face or 1/3rd down (0.381%) from the inner lip = the sweet spot.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Wow that is a surprise! It is kind of counterintuitive to put the
                        > > resistance at the place of HIGHEST vibration. That is two thirds of the way
                        > > down. I will give it a try.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Sorry for the late reply Paul...
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > In every panflute tube there is a "place of highest vibration", called
                        > > an anti-node. This can vary with each pipe because of small diameter
                        > > differences and slight taper from top to bottom. If a ring of wax/wood etc.
                        > > is placed at this point of the inner tube diameter, you will create an
                        > > artificial "standing sound wave". Because the Ring slows down the in/out flow
                        > > of air, it allows the Vacume/Pressure area just below the tube mouth, more
                        > > time to create Vacume/Pressure and therefore more acoustic energy with less
                        > > breath. The response time for the tube to sound will also be much faster
                        > > (quicker half notes).
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Measure the tube with a chopstick or small dowel placed inside the
                        > > tube. make a mark at the lip edge. Take this measurement and multiply it by
                        > > 0.618 and make a mark with the result, measured from the bottom of the stick.
                        > > When you place it back in the tube it will indicate the "sweet spot"
                        > > anti-node point.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > You can experiment with ring thicknesses between 1mm to 3mm until you
                        > > find the best result for each tube. Beeswax, Rolled paper rings waxed in
                        > > place or even insert industrial rubber "O" rings if they expand tightly in
                        > > the tube with no bumps or kinks (these sometimes work very well!)
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > A throat restriction produces greater acoustic impedance and faster
                        > > response time in panflute tubes. Try some experiments!(I can't give away all
                        > > my secrets ;)
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thomas Hastay.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Paul H" <monxmood@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Hi Thomas
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Do you have more tech specs on the Placement of the throat for
                        > > panpipe? I mean:
                        > > > > > > is 0.618 the middle/top/bottom of the throat?
                        > > > > > > how long is the throat?
                        > > > > > > by what percentage does it decrease the tube diameter? and
                        > > > > > > does the tube length need subsequent adjustment?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Lot of questions there !!
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > all the best
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Paul
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, "Tommytroll" <thomashastay@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Hi Kevin
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > This isn't all that "new". The ancient Chinese and Japanese
                        > > flutemakers used a similar technique to improve acoustic impedance
                        > > (standing-wave/backpressure). Here is an example diagram of a Nohkan Flute
                        > > design.{scroll down to diagram}
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/nohkan-e.htm
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I'm sure the acoustics of the modern devices is slightly superior,
                        > > but an amateur woodwind maker could rig a homemade device with ease. It is
                        > > the placement of this device at the prime anti-node that is the key to it's
                        > > success. Quite some time ago I posted here about a similar throated panflute
                        > > design that would improve tone and response times. (The placement of the
                        > > throat in a Panpipe tube is located at 0.618 of the length of the tube
                        > > measured up from the inner plug face.)
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Thomas Hastay.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > --- In panflute-world@yahoogroups.com, kbudd@ wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > Take a look at these
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/woodwind.html
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > I am guessing that they have a similar effect to inserts or
                        > > rings inside the top
                        > > > > > > > > > of pan flute tubes, making them more acoustically efficient.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > Kevin
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • george700dl
                        ... I agree they sound great, but only in the hands of someone like Stephan Popescu, at about 2:16 time in this video:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 10, 2011
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                          > Bottle shapes sound great if the shoulder is angled right, and the neck/body ratio is about 1:2.

                          I agree they sound great, but only in the hands of someone like Stephan Popescu, at about 2:16 time in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC_ngxdyEBY&NR=1

                          :)


                          George
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