Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'HolocaustR denial'

Expand Messages
  • mamubhi
    Beside the creation of illegal and immoral state of Israel and state sponsored terror continuum, please examine the mindset of Jewish/Israeli/Zionist people
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 19, 2007

      Beside the creation of illegal and immoral state of Israel and state sponsored terror continuum, please examine the mindset of Jewish/Israeli/Zionist people and let me know whether really holocaust took place!

         

       

      1. Colonialism - When Theodor Hartzl, the ideological founder of the Zionist movements in the 1890s, was asked what he proposed to do with the indigenous Palestinian population when his "state of the Jews" become a reality, he replied, "We will quietly spirit them across the boarder".

      Source: Free America Now

       

      2. Joseph Weitz, the head of the Jewish Agency's colonization department, confirmed this in his 1940 diary. "It must be clear", he wrote, "that there is no room for both people's together in this country … not one (Arab) village, not one tribe should be left".
      Source: Free America Now

       

      3. Cow of Palestine : "One Cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland "

      Source: ....Izaak Greenbaum

      4. Ben Gurion informed a meeting of Labor Zionists in Great Britain in 1938: "If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel , then I opt for the second alternative."  Ibid., p.149.




      --- In freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com, "austro_bangla" <austro_bangla@...> wrote:

      Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'Holocaust' denial'

       

      In light of the following links, is not it very hard to accept the fact that Holocaust ever took place as "they" claim?  

       

       

      Israeli Holocaust

       

      Middle East Formula for Peace

       

      A list of UN Resolutions against "Israel"          

       

      Holocaust continuum

       

      BEN-GURION'S SCANDALS

       

      German Poll Support Nazi Rule

       

      Iraq pullout would hurt Israel

       

      Israelis control America

       

      Iraq Was Invaded to Secure Israel

       

      Map of the ME Israel wants to draw using American Blood

       

      Palestinian Holocaust in the Holy Land

       

      Peace, Truth and Debate – Enemies of Israel!

       

       Zionism is worse than Nazism

       

      Zionism to Lobotomy

       

      ZIONIST WAR CRIME REPARATIONS 'ISRAEL MUST PAY THE PRICE

       

      The Sacred Cow

       

      What If Israel Had Never Been Created?

      What Right Do Zionist Jews Have To Palestine?

       


      --- In freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com, "union_faruque" <union_faruque@...> wrote:

      Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'HolocaustR denial'

       

      May I ask you all to examine the creation of Israel and history of that state!

      By examining and analyzing Israeli legal system, psyche and track record; I gain the impression that the holocaust is a myth!!

       

      --- In USQuagmire@yahoogroups.com, frank scott <frankscott@...> wrote:


      "To those sick of hearing about the Holocaust, I would say that I hear about it far more from deniers and supporters of deniers than from Zionists or anyone else!"

      you probably missed the speilberg film, and dozens of others, and missed the holocaust museum in washington dc, and various other displays in major metropolitan areas in the usa, where such things do not exist relative to the treatment of indians and Africans, here, but do re the treatment of jews, in europe...

      of course, if the sum total of one's experience is simply viewing a few web sites, it's possible to think the whole world is composed of smut, terrorism and holocaust denial...

      fs

      --- In freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com, "Jude" <jgtea@...> wrote:

      "I think Japan is getting even by selling us their cars and those cars are so much better than anything we can produce it is frightening."
      ===

      Right on, Jude...   And good for them !!   Call me "unAmerican," but I am angry and fed up.   I strongly disapprove of the aggressive behaviors and imperialist policies of the U.S. , especially under the Bush administration.   These "elite power thugs" do not represent me as an American citizen.

      Jodie  

       

      --- In USQuagmire@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <ldxar1@...> wrote:

      Re: [USQuagmire] Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'Holocaust® denial'

      Banning it is really a bit silly, but yeh, it's not really banned because of Israel but because of European (mainly German) sensitivities about their own guilt.  Holocaust denial nearly always correlates with racial prejudice and where it's banned, it's usually linked in to racial hatred laws.

      I might be wrong about this, but I don't think Holocaust denial as such is illegal in Greece .  Certainly this individual Plevris was NOT convicted for Holocaust denial.  He was convicted of inciting racial violence because he wrote a book which contained a lot of attacks on Jews.  Most western countries have racial hatred laws against expressing racism in a way likely to provoke prejudice, discrimination and violence.  They don't just cover anti-Jewish views but all kinds of racism, against black people, Arabs, Native Americans, Asians and so on.  Granted they are also somewhat controversial, are used very unevenly, and are misused by powerful groups - with the result that, for instance, anti-Arab remarks are a lot less likely in practice to be prosecuted than anti-Jewish remarks (and also, Jews are covered as an ethnic group, whereas Muslims are not usually covered because they are not an ethnic group but rather, a religion).  Hence, if the book had been "The Truth about Arabs", or "The Truth about Blacks", or "The Truth about Slavs", or even "The Truth about Whites", it would have been similarly illegal.

      "In the book, Plevris describes himself as a "Nazi, fascist, racist, anti-democrat, anti-Semite" (p. 600), subscribes to the myth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, characterizes Jewish children in the concentration camps as "very fat" and "well-fed", claims that Jews are "subhuman" (p. 583) "mortal enemies", and criticizes the Nazis for "not ridding Europe of Jewish Zionism". In the same book, he characterizes former UN secretary Kofi Annan as "cannibal" and "descendant of cannibals" and allegedly states that Jews need to be "rounded-up and executed within 24 hours", which is "the only way they understand" (p. 742). "

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantinos_Plevris#Lawsuit_over_Jews:_The_Whole_Truth

      The Nazis will always claim that they're being attacked for Holocaust denial even when they aren't, or when this is only part of the story (this is specifically NOT why Zundel was deported from Canada for instance).  Also, I think a lot of them publicly pursue martyrdom for themselves by making statements they know are illegal, in public and under their own names, in places they know they'll be prosecuted and jailed.  Irving for instance, who is perfectly safe in Britain , decides to go out to Austria and deny the Holocaust publicly - why?!  If he does not want to be "persecuted" for his views he could just as easily have declined the invitation, or gone to Austria and talked about other aspects of his work, referring listeners to his books for parts he cannot say, or he could have transmitted by webcam and hoped he wouldn't be extradited.  I know people who really ARE dissidents unlike these fascist scum, anarchists for instance, and I know how careful they are about what comes out under their own names, that anything vaguely prosecutable gets written under pseudonyms or anonymously, presented/published/hosted abroad, distributed hand-to-hand or on websites, etc.  If deniers wanted to publish this stuff and not get locked up, all they'd have to do is write anonymously/pseudonymously and publish with some publisher in Iran , or for that matter America . 

      And, yes, the Nazis are just as much seeking media attention and are just as biased and self-serving in what they write as any Zionist has ever been!

      Also, the thing with bias is, someone being biased doesn't preclude that they're right, or telling the truth.  Maybe some of the anti-denial sites are run by people with definite interests, but they are still able to rebut every argument the deniers come out with.  The pro-denial sites are also run by people with definite interests, but aren't able to rebut the other side's arguments.

      Note, however, regarding Palestine , Ireland , India , and so on, that there's a difference between Holocaust denial and Holocaust relativism.  Holocaust denial claims the Jewish Holocaust didn't happen; Holocaust relativism claims that it happened, but is not, or not necessarily, an outstanding and unique kind of evil.  Hence that as well as the Jewish Holocaust one must recognise the Nazi Holocausts of gypsies, gay men, Jehovah's witnesses, and so on; the Armenian, Rwandan, etc, genocides; the American genocide of the Native Americans; the "Late Victorian Holocausts" such as the Bengal and Irish famines; etc.  While I'm very much opposed to denial, I have more of a mixed feeling about relativism, and tend towards supporting it (the Holocaust was exceptional in certain ways, notably the massive industrialised process of killing, but I don't see how it's morally distinct from all the other attempts to exterminate or decimate populations).  Whereas denial supports a Nazi or other viciously anti-Jewish agenda, and Holocaust exceptionalism tends to support Zionism (the Jews as exemplary victims), relativism tends to feed into an emancipatory agenda (resistance to all oppressive regimes and all kinds of racism).  Some Zionists try to argue that relativism is the same as/as bad as denial, but they're quite reluctant to say this in public, and relativism hasn't been banned anywhere as far as I know.  Denial is easy to rebut empirically, and to show as anti-Jewish prejudice; relativism is a lot harder to attack.

      Israel is in many respects an oppressive and fascistic state.  I'm not entirely sure whether the Israelis intend genocide against Palestinians - they certainly have carried out ethnic cleansing and massacres, but with the aim to force people out of territories they were trying to occupy.  Liberal Zionists seem pretty happy at least in principle with a two-state solution.  I don't think Hitler would have allowed a two-state solution with the Jews (arguably not even with the Poles), even on a grossly unequal and unfair basis.  This said - the Israeli attitude to conquest and warfare, and the tactics used against Palestinians (collective punishment, ghettoisation, assassination, blitzkrieg bombings and tank runs, systematic scorched earth policies, land grabs) are very similar to the Nazi attitude to the Slavs, who officially at least, were next up on the chopping-block after the Jews and gypsies.  Also, there are certainly extreme Zionist groups such as the JDL, Kahana Chai, Kach etc who actually do believe in full-scale genocide against Palestinians.  There's actual graffiti of "Arabs to the gas chambers" in one of the settlements.  So it probably depends which kind of Zionists one is talking about.  At a certain point a liberal Zionist ends up no different from an American liberal who opposes reparations for slavery, opposes the land claims of Native Americans, doesn't recognise the southwest as Mexican and so on.  The persistence of a past ethnic cleansing / expropriation and a resultant situation of supremacy, but not necessarily anything more than this. 

      I worry that pro-Palestinian activists sometimes want too much of a Hollywood world, with clear good guys and bad guys - everything the Jews say or do is bad, everything the Arabs say or do is good...  Personally, coming from a liberationist and human-rights standpoint, I don't see why someone has to be perfect to be supported against human rights violations, or why someone has to be pure evil and nothing but a liar to be criticised and resisted for human rights violations, or why people feel such a need to construct hierarchies of victimhood and oppression.  Just as I get criticised by Zionists for Holocaust relativism, I also get criticised by some anti-Zionists for relativising the Palestine situation, for not seeing Zionism as some kind of unique, total and overarching evil distinct from all the other nationalisms and racisms of the world.  Actually I think it would be to the advantage of Palestinians for their struggle to be inscribed in the series of social justice struggles alongside the South African anti-apartheid movement, the West Papuans , the Tibetans, the Chechens and so on.  The general legitimacy of these kinds of social justice struggles is pretty widely accepted at least on the left/liberal side of opinion in the west, and has resonance with struggles elsewhere in the world as well.  To the extent that the Palestine issue gets turned into an ethno-religious us-and-them conflict which is just about taking sides (either being anti-Palestinian or anti-Jewish), the issue will appear to many people as both sides being as bad as one another.  If instead it's inscribed as a social justice struggle, it appears in very different terms, and the pro-Palestinian position is strengthened.  I'm inclined to see Holocaust denial, common cause with neo-Nazi critics of Jews, criticism of Jews in general (e.g. Jewish conspiracy theories), and other kinds of attempts to malign Jews as such (as opposed to the nature/policies of Israel as a nasty colonial state), as playing into the hands of those who want to make the conflict purely ethno-religious and suppress its social justice dimension, and therefore as undermining the Palestinian cause.  Even more so in cases (such as Holocaust denial) where those who profess such views just make themselves look prejudiced and stupid.

      To those sick of hearing about the Holocaust, I would say that I hear about it far more from deniers and supporters of deniers than from Zionists or anyone else!  Apart from one occasion where settlers were condemned in the Israeli media for wearing yellow stars, the only times the Holocaust is in the news are when deniers get locked up.  They are the ones keeping the Holocaust in the news, and they are very useful to the Zionists, showing the world that racist Jew-haters still exist, hence letting the Zionists label the rest of the pro-Palestine movement as racist Jew-haters.  I would not be at all surprised if it turned out some of these deniers and their organisations are getting secret funding from the Zionists.

      best wishes,

      Andy

       

      union_faruque <union_faruque@...> wrote:

      Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'Holocaust' denial'


       

      The longest running concentration camps are located inside the occupied Palestine and these slow motion Israeli Holocaust is much more painful than the Hitler's Holocaust which has become a "milking cow" lately.

       

      Ironically, so called victims of the holocaust and their children are very sensitive about the old holocaust Even they get spastic if any one wish to discuss the the old holocaust for a research or analysis purpose  while they are directly and indirectly conducting Israeli Holocaust in Palestine .

       

      I can not accept such a blatant hypocrisy and double standard.

       


      --- In USQuagmire@yahoogroups.com, "mollylechat" <mhiver@...> wrote:

      Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'Holocaust® denial'

       

      ---Europeans, not just Jews, have a visceral reaction to denial of the terror of the last war....partly this is emotional, of course,and many people would admit that it's probably silly to criminalize stupidity; as you say, it just gives the deniers publicity and enables them to pose as some sort of victim.

      on the other hand, the organizers of the denial publicity are Nazis for the most part who would repeat the same mass murder if they got the chance.

      We who suffer the zionist hegemony in most media should not discount the effort to keep Nazis from gaining media exposure. The media can mould opinion and serve as the basis for a renewed Nazi presence,just as the media are the main bastion of zionist propaganda, itself a descendant of Nazi ideology in many ways.

      I think the search for victimhood is part of why the deniers are always seeking publicity...

       

       

       

      --- In freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com, "Jude" <jgtea@...> wrote:

      RE: [freeamericanow] Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'HolocaustR denial'

       

      I saw a documentary of that, called Black Rain, and in Japan most kids had no idea of what happened on that infamous date in Japan , in fact Japan is so westernized they look more American than we do here.  I think Japan is getting even by selling us their cars and those cars are so much better than anything we can produce it is frightening. 

      Next India will get even oh wait, they already are by being our call centers for everything.


      From: freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jodie
      Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 6:55 PM
      To: freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [freeamericanow] Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'HolocaustR denial'

       

      Yer right, Jude.   The nuclear bombing of Nagasaki and Hiro Shima remains a blight on American history and a black stain on the image of "every American citizen."   Now, that was a Holocaust, compliments of the good ol' U.S.A. !!   Bad judgment.   I don't know how the Japanese people ever forgave us.......      I guess the U.S. government is still paying for it.   I feel sad for the Japanese.   They have lost their culture and have become "westernized."

      I think Americans are also losing their culture....

      Jodie

       


      --- In freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com, "Jude" <jgtea@...> wrote:

      RE: [freeamericanow] Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'HolocaustR denial'

       

      Most have forgot about when we bombed Japan but we are not allowed to forget some Jewish were killed by Hitler, what's wrong with that ?


      From: freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jodie
      Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:24 AM
      To: freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [freeamericanow] Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'Holocaust® denial'

       

      Jeez...  !!   It seems "all races" must spend their time "walking on egg shells" in fear of offending the Jews for this or that.   Personally, I am a "little tired" of hearing about the holocaust...  !!   It's not on my daily list of  "important things to think about." 

      Jodie

       


      --- In USQuagmire@yahoogroups.com, raja chemayel <chemayelraja@...> wrote:
      Re: [USQuagmire] Greek Historian sentenced for 'Holocaust® denial'

       

      if and when Holocaust-denial is wrong , where is the danger in hearing it ?? forbidding it gives it more advertisement !!

      Raja

       


      union_faruque <union_faruque@...> wrote:

      Greek Historian sentenced for 'Holocaust® denial'

      The Sacred Cow 

       

       

      No one would be crucified, should one wish to deny Jesus, Moses, Muhammad or Buda. Even no one would punish anyone for telling, "the capitalism is the conspiracy of rich and powerful". However, the denial of so-called holocaust is the cardinal sin of the century! May I ask, why? Yet, the same holocaust traders are denying the most painful and slow motion holocaust in the occupied Palestine in front of every one! What a blatant hypocrisy!!! What a double standard!!!!

      During the Second World War 50 million people died. However, these racist and fascist holocaust traders are shading their crocodile tears for "lost and found six millions"! May I ask what about the solid 44 millions? Are they worthless? What about the English holocaust in Ireland ! And the British holocaust in Bengal in and around the same time frame of Mr. Adolph Hitler's holocaust!

      Today the evil empire of Rupert Murdoch deliberately misquoted a Sydney cleric and the rest of the zionised media are also doing everything to incite sectarian and racist sentiment in the society based on that ugly piece of journalism. Even both, the Labor and Liberal politicians are competing to land their support for Zionism.

      By the way, looking at the brilliant track record of `sanctified' Israel and the theory of the survival of the fittest; one can say, "so called Hitler's holocaust is well and truly justified due the present and past reality demonstrated by the holocaust traders". Recent examples of Gaza Strip and Lebanon would be sufficient enough to prove the case.

      Furthermore, the Zionism is older than Nazism and it appears; the Nazis have found out and borrowed many dirty tricks and tactics from the Zionists. Therefore in many ways, the Zionists are responsible for Nazi atrocities.

       

      However, the Zionism is worse than Nazism as one was the product of a few mad people during a difficult period of time comparing Zionism - which is the product of millions of Israelis and their supporters stretching across half a century with a stamp of infinity!

      The Nazism is based on German nationalism and Zionism is based on Jewish nationalism. The Nazism subscribes on racial purity and supremacy. The Zionism subscribes on religious purity and supremacy and eventually ends up with racial supremacy and purity like Nazism!

      The Zionists are milking the "Holocaust Cow" while conducting war crimes, massacres and genocides in the longest running concentration of the universe located in the occupied Palestine with a stamp of infinity!

      Abridged from: http://southafrica.indymedia.org/news/2006/08/10977

      http://sydney.indymedia.org.au/node/50689 (hidden by Sydney Zio-Nazis)

      Aug. 20, 2006 at 8:04 AM

       

      --- In freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com, "Jodie" <jodie_usa2000@...> wrote:

      Re: Greek Historian sentenced for 'Holocaust® denial'


      What is that "R" after Holocaust... a "trademark ???? "

      Jodie


      --- In freeamericanow@yahoogroups.com, "Jodie" <jodie_usa2000@...>
      wrote:


      Jeez... !! It seems "all races" must spend their time "walking on egg shells" in fear of offending the Jews for this or that. Personally, I  am a "little tired" of hearing about the holocaust... !! It's not on my daily list of "important things to think about."

      Jodie

       

       

       

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: New Order

      To: mail@...

      Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 8:38 PM

      Subject: Greek Historian sentenced for 'Holocaust® denial'


      IN THE NAME OF 'FREEDOM'

       

       

      Greek Historian
      sentenced
      for 'Holocaust® denial'

      While Western media and politicians routinely bemoan the lack  of "democracy" in post-Soviet Russia, they are conspicuously mute about the repression of dissenting writers and scholars in the so-called "free world," of which this is but the latest example.

      Greek historian convicted over book denying the Holocaust
      Associated Press  Thursday, 13 December 2007
       
      ATHENS — A far-right Greek historian was sentenced to 14 months in prison Thursday for inciting racial hatred with a book that denies the Holocaust took place, court officials said.

       

      Historian Costas Plevris appealed his sentence and was not taken into custody. 

       

      A three-member panel of judges voted 2-1 to find Plevris guilty of inciting violence and racial hatred. The court cleared three other defendants of similar charges: the publisher, the editor and

      a journalist at a small right-wing magazine that published extracts from the book.

      Greek Jewish community leaders had testified that Plevris' book The Jews: The Whole Truth has led to an increase in attacks on Jewish monuments in the country.

      Plevris protested to the court that his right to free speech had been violated.

      It was the first trial in Greece on the recently introduced incitement charges. 

      http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/934426.html 


      Continuing the fight for a better world —

      NEW ORDER
      Dept E
      PO Box 270486
      Milwaukee WI 53227

       

      Source: USQuagmire, Free America Now, Ershad Manji and Religion and Terrorism

       

       

       

       

       

    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.