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Re: [OLmws] borderDisplay

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  • Dennis Sandow
    ... Two additional abservations. Possibly no surprise, I don t know. 1. In IE6, all the choices below Solid (i.e. grooved, inset, etc) render as solid. No
    Message 1 of 5 , May 1, 2004
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      Robert E Boughner wrote:
      Fote,
      Take a look at the file
      http://overlib.boughner.us/MWSExamples/borderDisplay.html with your
      IE5.5 browser and let me know what you get for dotted, dashed, and
      double.  The display is consistent in Netscape 7.1 and Opera 7.23,
      with the background color appearing between the gaps in the border. 
      However in IE6.0, the gaps in the border don't take on the background
      color.  I'm wondering if that also occurs in IE5.5
      
        

      Two additional abservations.  Possibly no surprise, I don't know.

      1. In  IE6, all the choices below Solid (i.e. grooved, inset, etc) render as solid.  No grey-shaded components.

      2. The browsers handle box dimensions differntly.    This would certainly affect any page that used this technique for precision sizing, when that page is viewed in different browsers.
      • In NS7, the yellow box remains a fixed size (200px2), and the BOX GETS BIGGER as border is added outside that, with no limit.
      • In IE6, the OUTER size is 200 PX, and the yellow area inside GETS SMALLER - it is the remainder after borders have been subtracted from 200.
      • In IE6, Solid border=100 is all black.  Border=101 starts to expand the black box
      • In IE6, Dashed border=40 works. At border=41, the border disappears, leaving a 120 px yellow box.
      So, which browser implementation is correct?  Or is this another place where the std doesn't go far enough?

      Dennis

    • Robert E Boughner
      ... sizing, ... With respect to item #1, I ve noticed that too. Apparently, IE can t render those border style so they revert to solid which is as I
      Message 2 of 5 , May 1, 2004
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        --- In overlibmws@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Sandow <dsandow@g...> wrote:
        > Robert E Boughner wrote:
        >
        > >Fote,
        > >Take a look at the file
        > >http://overlib.boughner.us/MWSExamples/borderDisplay.html with your
        > >IE5.5 browser and let me know what you get for dotted, dashed, and
        > >double. The display is consistent in Netscape 7.1 and Opera 7.23,
        > >with the background color appearing between the gaps in the border.
        > >However in IE6.0, the gaps in the border don't take on the background
        > >color. I'm wondering if that also occurs in IE5.5
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > Two additional abservations. Possibly no surprise, I don't know.
        >
        > 1. In IE6, all the choices below Solid (i.e. grooved, inset, etc)
        > render as solid. No grey-shaded components.
        >
        > 2. The browsers handle box dimensions differntly. This would
        > certainly affect any page that used this technique for precision
        sizing,
        > when that page is viewed in different browsers.
        >
        > * In NS7, the yellow box remains a fixed size (200px2), and the BOX
        > GETS BIGGER as border is added outside that, with no limit.
        > * In IE6, the OUTER size is 200 PX, and the yellow area inside GETS
        > SMALLER - it is the remainder after borders have been subtracted
        > from 200.
        > * In IE6, Solid border=100 is all black. Border=101 starts to
        > expand the black box
        > * In IE6, Dashed border=40 works. At border=41, the border
        > disappears, leaving a 120 px yellow box.
        >
        > So, which browser implementation is correct? Or is this another place
        > where the std doesn't go far enough?
        >

        With respect to item #1, I've noticed that too. Apparently, IE can't
        render those border style so they revert to solid which is as I
        understand it is perfectly acceptable according to the standards.

        As for item #2, the behavior that you mention is understandable. I
        don't have any DOCTYPE on the document so IE should be rendering it in
        a Quirks mode. If you add the following to the beginning:

        <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
        "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/loose.dtd">

        You'll find that IE will probably start behaving like Netscape 7.1
        does because then it will be rendering in a Standards compliant mode.
        The problem that you mentioned here with regard to IE is known and is
        in fact commented on in the Microsoft site.

        As to your final question, I suspect that Netscape 7.1 and Opera are
        doing it correctly as will any Mozilla based browser since all are
        following the CSS standards.
      • Robert E Boughner
        ... Dennis take a look again at the above file and let me know if it doesn t work more nearly the same in both IE and Netscape 7.1? I ve added a DOCTYPE
        Message 3 of 5 , May 1, 2004
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          --- In overlibmws@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Sandow <dsandow@g...> wrote:
          > Robert E Boughner wrote:
          >
          > >Fote,
          > >Take a look at the file
          > >http://overlib.boughner.us/MWSExamples/borderDisplay.html with your
          > >IE5.5 browser and let me know what you get for dotted, dashed, and
          > >double. The display is consistent in Netscape 7.1 and Opera 7.23,
          > >with the background color appearing between the gaps in the border.
          > >However in IE6.0, the gaps in the border don't take on the background
          > >color. I'm wondering if that also occurs in IE5.5
          > >
          > >
          > >

          Dennis take a look again at the above file and let me know if it
          doesn't work more nearly the same in both IE and Netscape 7.1? I've
          added a DOCTYPE statement to the page so that IE should be rendering
          it in a Standards compliant mode.
        • Foteos Macrides
          ... From: Robert E Boughner To: overlibmws@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:31 PM Subject: [OLmws] borderDisplay Fote, Take a look at the file
          Message 4 of 5 , May 1, 2004
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            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:31 PM
            Subject: [OLmws] borderDisplay
             
            Fote,
            Take a look at the file
            http://overlib.boughner.us/MWSExamples/borderDisplay.html with your
            IE5.5 browser and let me know what you get for dotted, dashed, and double.  The display is consistent in Netscape 7.1 and Opera 7.23, with the background color appearing between the gaps in the border. However in IE6.0, the gaps in the border don't take on the background color.  I'm wondering if that also occurs in IE5.5
            Bob,
             
            You are using a div instead of tables in that test suite, but the IE mis-implementation of the CSS Box model:
             
             
            applies to divs as well, for all versions of IE as I recall, though the oldest I still have here for testing is v5.5.  My only uncertainty in this regard was whether MS had fixed this in a very recent IE with a very recent XP, but apparently not.  Using a strict DTD will not fix IE's mis-implementation.
             
            To answer Dennis' question about what is "correct," I guess one can always debate what the meaning of "is" is, and in those W3C standards for the CSS Box model such a debate is enabled via the caveat:
             
            Note. Notably for HTML, user agents may render borders for certain elements (e.g., buttons, menus, etc.) differently than for "ordinary" elements.
             
            But IMHO, div, table and td are "ordinary" elements.  So their "background style" for the "border area" should be that "of the generating area" as the Geckos and Opera7 make it for the "spaces" in dotted, dashed and double.  If the "background style" is transparent because no background color or image was specified, then those spaces should have the background color or image of the parent.  The Geckos and Opera7 also handle that correctly, but IE always uses the parent's background color or image no matter what was specified or not for the "generating area" when the latter is a div, table, or td.
             
            If you try the example for a ul with li elements as in those W3C specs, IE does set the "spaces" to the background color or image of the li elements, not of the parent ul.  Perhaps some MS engineer read that and fixed it for ul and li, but didn't realize that it also should be fixed for div, table and td.  :<)
             
            So for overlib popups what this means is that with overlibmws or the "standard" v4.00 one can easily set up a workaround for the IE mis-implementation, e.g., as I did in:
             
             
            to set the style.backgroundColor (or Image) of the overDiv positioned div temporarily to what one wants to be the background with a BGCLASS rule that specifies a dashed, dotted or double border, because overDiv is the parent of the outer-most table.  But in Bob's CSSW3C plugin he simplified the LGFs by eliminating the embedded table design and instead making the overDiv the "generating area" for a dashed, dotted or double outer border -- and its parent is the body element.  You can't temporarily change the body element's style.backgroundColor (or Image) as a workaround for IE because the background for the entire document (window) will change, not just the "spaces" in a dashed, dotted or double border.
             
            Fote
            --
             
          • Robert E Boughner
            ... double. The display is consistent in Netscape 7.1 and Opera 7.23, with the background color appearing between the gaps in the border. However in IE6.0,
            Message 5 of 5 , May 1, 2004
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              --- In overlibmws@yahoogroups.com, "Foteos Macrides" <fote@m...> wrote:
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Robert E Boughner
              > To: overlibmws@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:31 PM
              > Subject: [OLmws] borderDisplay
              >
              > Fote,
              > Take a look at the file
              > http://overlib.boughner.us/MWSExamples/borderDisplay.html with your
              > IE5.5 browser and let me know what you get for dotted, dashed, and
              double. The display is consistent in Netscape 7.1 and Opera 7.23,
              with the background color appearing between the gaps in the border.
              However in IE6.0, the gaps in the border don't take on the background
              color. I'm wondering if that also occurs in IE5.5
              > Bob,
              >
              > You are using a div instead of tables in that test suite, but the IE
              mis-implementation of the CSS Box model:
              >
              > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/box.html#border-properties
              >
              > applies to divs as well, for all versions of IE as I recall, though
              the oldest I still have here for testing is v5.5. My only uncertainty
              in this regard was whether MS had fixed this in a very recent IE with
              a very recent XP, but apparently not. Using a strict DTD will not fix
              IE's mis-implementation.
              >
              > To answer Dennis' question about what is "correct," I guess one can
              always debate what the meaning of "is" is, and in those W3C standards
              for the CSS Box model such a debate is enabled via the caveat:
              >
              > Note. Notably for HTML, user agents may render borders for certain
              elements (e.g., buttons, menus, etc.) differently than for "ordinary"
              elements.
              >
              > But IMHO, div, table and td are "ordinary" elements. So their
              "background style" for the "border area" should be that "of the
              generating area" as the Geckos and Opera7 make it for the "spaces" in
              dotted, dashed and double. If the "background style" is transparent
              because no background color or image was specified, then those spaces
              should have the background color or image of the parent. The Geckos
              and Opera7 also handle that correctly, but IE always uses the parent's
              background color or image no matter what was specified or not for the
              "generating area" when the latter is a div, table, or td.
              >
              > If you try the example for a ul with li elements as in those W3C
              specs, IE does set the "spaces" to the background color or image of
              the li elements, not of the parent ul. Perhaps some MS engineer read
              that and fixed it for ul and li, but didn't realize that it also
              should be fixed for div, table and td. :<)
              >
              > So for overlib popups what this means is that with overlibmws or the
              "standard" v4.00 one can easily set up a workaround for the IE
              mis-implementation, e.g., as I did in:
              >
              > http://www.macridesweb.com/oltest/CSScgBorder.html
              >
              > to set the style.backgroundColor (or Image) of the overDiv
              positioned div temporarily to what one wants to be the background with
              a BGCLASS rule that specifies a dashed, dotted or double border,
              because overDiv is the parent of the outer-most table. But in Bob's
              CSSW3C plugin he simplified the LGFs by eliminating the embedded table
              design and instead making the overDiv the "generating area" for a
              dashed, dotted or double outer border -- and its parent is the body
              element. You can't temporarily change the body element's
              style.backgroundColor (or Image) as a workaround for IE because the
              background for the entire document (window) will change, not just the
              "spaces" in a dashed, dotted or double border.
              >

              Thank you Fote for your explanation but you gave more than I really
              wanted. I was just asking a simple question as to what you were
              getting in IE 5.5. Yes I know that the initial page that I put up
              should have shown IE mis-implementation of the CSS Box Model but the
              second one should have cleared up a lot of problems because it is my
              understanding that in a Standards compliant rendering mode, IE handle
              the box model correctly but still doesn't handle borders which have
              gaps in them the same as other browsers, even in a standards compliant
              rendering mode as you indicate here.
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