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eternal recurrence

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  • johnstewartmoore
    I reconsider the idea of eternal recurrence. Once I saw the idea as harsh and appalling. Faced with a possibility of imminent death I see how it may be
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 4, 2012
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      I reconsider the idea of eternal recurrence. Once I saw the idea as harsh and appalling. Faced with a possibility of imminent death I see how it may be comfort and actually a not implausible one. It could form part of our new enlightenment, not as an item of faith but as an available hypothesis, take it or leave it. Could this be something like your idea of figuration?
    • johnstewartmoore
      ... Does Nietzsche s philosophy form a seamless web, or is it made up of disconnected building blocks? What significance does ER have in the whole? Here I
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 4, 2012
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        --- In ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com, johnstewartmoore <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > I reconsider the idea of eternal recurrence. Once I saw the idea as harsh and appalling. Faced with a possibility of imminent death I see how it may be comfort and actually a not implausible one. It could form part of our new enlightenment, not as an item of faith but as an available hypothesis, take it or leave it. Could this be something like your idea of figuration?
        >
        Does Nietzsche's philosophy form a seamless web, or is it made up of disconnected building blocks? What significance does ER have in the whole? Here I treat it as a take it or leave it idea that might fortify us and cheer us up. Other times it has come across as a severe test.

        Sometimes Nietzscheans accept it, and conferences I have met some who do. How exactly does an interest in Nietzsche lead one to accept such an idea?
      • Daniel Christopher June
        Its common for thinkers upon having a brush with death to reconsider their views on immortality. Mortimer Adler, the Jewish and nevertheless atheist
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 4, 2012
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          Its common for thinkers upon having a brush with death to reconsider their
          views on immortality. Mortimer Adler, the Jewish and nevertheless atheist
          philosopher who taught at the University of Chicago, nevertheless converted
          to Christianity, and eventually Catholicism upon recovering a severe
          illness. Wilde converted to Catholicism near the end.



          I interpret this not so much a fear of mortality but having an experience
          that shows just how important an idea immortality is for us. The earliest
          work of literature we have -- the epic of gilgamesh -- details a quest for
          immorality.



          As for figuration, yes, that's how I look at the Eternal Recurrence. I read
          somewhere that Nietzsche was actually relieved when he was told that it was
          not scientifically legitimate. What Nietzsche wanted to overcome was his
          resentment against the pains in his life. To be able to approve his own life
          now, as IF it would really reoccur indefinitely, was the spiritual triumph
          Nietszche desired.



          I myself really think immortality of some sort is possible. However, as for
          the details of my metaphysics, which are more elaborate than anybody could
          know, it reflects a projected morality of course, not some scientific
          certainty. And I think that's okay -- but it clearly has its abuses. Belief
          in hell has caused a lot of real life hell.



          daniel





          \ ~@M@~ /

          perfectidius.com



          From: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnstewartmoore
          Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 2:21 PM
          To: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Our Pal Nietzsche ] eternal recurrence





          I reconsider the idea of eternal recurrence. Once I saw the idea as harsh
          and appalling. Faced with a possibility of imminent death I see how it may
          be comfort and actually a not implausible one. It could form part of our new
          enlightenment, not as an item of faith but as an available hypothesis, take
          it or leave it. Could this be something like your idea of figuration?





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Daniel Christopher June
          Nietzche s philosophy is best comprehended by noticing his major values, and how he explores and develops him through stylistic experiments. The same is true
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 4, 2012
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            Nietzche's philosophy is best comprehended by noticing his major values, and
            how he explores and develops him through stylistic experiments. The same is
            true for his ER. He could very well have avoided the formulation -- it is
            NOT logically necessary, but merely one more expression of a value of
            Nietzsche's. The noble man has reverence for himself. A life well lived
            affirms itself. Amor fati. The metaphysical experiment is meant to challenge
            and express a self-judgment.



            daniel





            \ ~@M@~ /

            perfectidius.com



            From: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnstewartmoore
            Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 3:06 PM
            To: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Our Pal Nietzsche ] Re: eternal recurrence







            --- In ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:ourpalnietzsche%40yahoogroups.com> , johnstewartmoore <no_reply@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I reconsider the idea of eternal recurrence. Once I saw the idea as harsh
            and appalling. Faced with a possibility of imminent death I see how it may
            be comfort and actually a not implausible one. It could form part of our new
            enlightenment, not as an item of faith but as an available hypothesis, take
            it or leave it. Could this be something like your idea of figuration?
            >
            Does Nietzsche's philosophy form a seamless web, or is it made up of
            disconnected building blocks? What significance does ER have in the whole?
            Here I treat it as a take it or leave it idea that might fortify us and
            cheer us up. Other times it has come across as a severe test.

            Sometimes Nietzscheans accept it, and conferences I have met some who do.
            How exactly does an interest in Nietzsche lead one to accept such an idea?



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • johnstewartmoore
            ... The idea of it being a challenge suggests the idea of a harsh test. What would we call a life well lived ? Life as Nietzsche understands it, and as he
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 4, 2012
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              --- In ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Christopher June" <perfectidius@...> wrote:
              >
              > Nietzche's philosophy is best comprehended by noticing his major values, and
              > how he explores and develops him through stylistic experiments. The same is
              > true for his ER. He could very well have avoided the formulation -- it is
              > NOT logically necessary, but merely one more expression of a value of
              > Nietzsche's. The noble man has reverence for himself. A life well lived
              > affirms itself. Amor fati. The metaphysical experiment is meant to challenge
              > and express a self-judgment.
              >
              The idea of it being a challenge suggests the idea of a harsh test. What would we call a 'life well lived'? Life as Nietzsche understands it, and as he wishes for those in whom he is interested, involves much difficulty and constant risk of defeat.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > \ ~@M@~ /
              >
              > perfectidius.com
              >
              >
              >
              > From: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnstewartmoore
              > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 3:06 PM
              > To: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Our Pal Nietzsche ] Re: eternal recurrence
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:ourpalnietzsche%40yahoogroups.com> , johnstewartmoore <no_reply@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I reconsider the idea of eternal recurrence. Once I saw the idea as harsh
              > and appalling. Faced with a possibility of imminent death I see how it may
              > be comfort and actually a not implausible one. It could form part of our new
              > enlightenment, not as an item of faith but as an available hypothesis, take
              > it or leave it. Could this be something like your idea of figuration?
              > >
              > Does Nietzsche's philosophy form a seamless web, or is it made up of
              > disconnected building blocks? What significance does ER have in the whole?
              > Here I treat it as a take it or leave it idea that might fortify us and
              > cheer us up. Other times it has come across as a severe test.
              >
              > Sometimes Nietzscheans accept it, and conferences I have met some who do.
              > How exactly does an interest in Nietzsche lead one to accept such an idea?
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Daniel June
              ... , Daniel Christopher June ... and ... is ... challenge ... The idea of it being a challenge suggests the idea
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 5, 2012
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                --- In ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:ourpalnietzsche%40yahoogroups.com> , "Daniel Christopher June"
                <perfectidius@...> wrote:
                >
                > Nietzche's philosophy is best comprehended by noticing his major values,
                and
                > how he explores and develops him through stylistic experiments. The same
                is
                > true for his ER. He could very well have avoided the formulation -- it is
                > NOT logically necessary, but merely one more expression of a value of
                > Nietzsche's. The noble man has reverence for himself. A life well lived
                > affirms itself. Amor fati. The metaphysical experiment is meant to
                challenge
                > and express a self-judgment.
                >
                The idea of it being a challenge suggests the idea of a harsh test. What
                would we call a 'life well lived'? Life as Nietzsche understands it, and as
                he wishes for those in whom he is interested, involves much difficulty and
                constant risk of defeat



                ====What I mean by challenge is that if metaphysics is an experiment, or an
                attempt --- Nietzsche often called himself an attempter --- then reality is
                what comments on that attempt, which says if its going to work or not. The
                idea of Nietzshe as experimentor implies some way he could be challenged by
                reality.

                daniel



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • johnstewartmoore
                ... At the FNS conference 2005: Peterhouse, Cambridge ( Nietzsche on Time and History ) a lot of speakers dealt with the theme of eternal recurrence. My own
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 5, 2012
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                  --- In ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel June" <perfectidius@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:ourpalnietzsche%40yahoogroups.com> , "Daniel Christopher June"
                  > <perfectidius@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Nietzche's philosophy is best comprehended by noticing his major values,
                  > and
                  > > how he explores and develops him through stylistic experiments. The same
                  > is
                  > > true for his ER. He could very well have avoided the formulation -- it is
                  > > NOT logically necessary, but merely one more expression of a value of
                  > > Nietzsche's. The noble man has reverence for himself. A life well lived
                  > > affirms itself. Amor fati. The metaphysical experiment is meant to
                  > challenge
                  > > and express a self-judgment.
                  > >
                  > The idea of it being a challenge suggests the idea of a harsh test. What
                  > would we call a 'life well lived'? Life as Nietzsche understands it, and as
                  > he wishes for those in whom he is interested, involves much difficulty and
                  > constant risk of defeat
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ====What I mean by challenge is that if metaphysics is an experiment, or an
                  > attempt --- Nietzsche often called himself an attempter --- then reality is
                  > what comments on that attempt, which says if its going to work or not. The
                  > idea of Nietzshe as experimentor implies some way he could be challenged by
                  > reality.
                  >
                  At the FNS conference 2005: Peterhouse, Cambridge ('Nietzsche on Time and History') a lot of speakers dealt with the theme of eternal recurrence. My own paper was the one aobut Spengler, and it was described by an old Cambridge academic who heard it as breath of fresh air. ER tends to be taken with a deadly seriousness that turns it into some kind of painful ordeal.
                • Daniel Christopher June
                  ... challenge ... The idea of it being a challenge suggests the idea of a harsh test. What would we call a life well lived ? Life as Nietzsche understands it,
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 6, 2012
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                    > affirms itself. Amor fati. The metaphysical experiment is meant to
                    challenge
                    > and express a self-judgment.
                    >
                    The idea of it being a challenge suggests the idea of a harsh test. What
                    would we call a 'life well lived'? Life as Nietzsche understands it, and as
                    he wishes for those in whom he is interested, involves much difficulty and
                    constant risk of defeat.
                    >
                    >



                    === Life is both the source and the test for what would be truth. It isn't
                    always harsh. But as for me, I'm burnt out on writing articles.



                    === Daniel



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Daniel Christopher June
                    ... an ... is ... by ... At the FNS conference 2005: Peterhouse, Cambridge ( Nietzsche on Time and History ) a lot of speakers dealt with the theme of eternal
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 6, 2012
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                      > ====What I mean by challenge is that if metaphysics is an experiment, or
                      an
                      > attempt --- Nietzsche often called himself an attempter --- then reality
                      is
                      > what comments on that attempt, which says if its going to work or not. The
                      > idea of Nietzshe as experimentor implies some way he could be challenged
                      by
                      > reality.
                      >
                      At the FNS conference 2005: Peterhouse, Cambridge ('Nietzsche on Time and
                      History') a lot of speakers dealt with the theme of eternal recurrence. My
                      own paper was the one aobut Spengler, and it was described by an old
                      Cambridge academic who heard it as breath of fresh air. ER tends to be taken
                      with a deadly seriousness that turns it into some kind of painful ordeal.



                      =====This isn't a simple thing. Does one need to be a fundamentalist to be a
                      true Christian? Does one need to believe in a literal Nirvana to be a true
                      Buddhist? How are intelligent people to take these metaphysical tales?
                      Surely we can enjoy actual fiction -- Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky -- as being
                      psychologically true and sublimely aesthetic without expecting the stories
                      to be literally true.



                      =====This problem of fundamentalism could be charged against the scientists,
                      who reject God and all talk of metaphysics on fundamentalist terms ("Because
                      God is an old man in the clouds, he therefore doesn't exist.") I think some
                      metaphysical visions support ugly ethics, and I put Christianity in this
                      class, but that does not lead me to deny metaphysics wholesale.

                      =====daniel



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • johnstewartmoore
                      ... Nor me. Nor anti-metaphysics either, which often has a point.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 8, 2012
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                        > I think some
                        > metaphysical visions support ugly ethics, and I put Christianity in this
                        > class, but that does not lead me to deny metaphysics wholesale.
                        >
                        Nor me. Nor anti-metaphysics either, which often has a point.
                      • Daniel Christopher June
                        I would suggest that ALL experience is by nature positive, and regards the real, and that whatever experience metaphysics and antimetaphysics expose are by
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 10, 2012
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                          I would suggest that ALL experience is by nature positive, and regards the
                          real, and that whatever experience metaphysics and antimetaphysics expose
                          are by nature real and useful. the rest is mere apparatus.



                          daniel





                          \ ~@M@~ /

                          perfectidius.com



                          From: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnstewartmoore
                          Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 10:43 AM
                          To: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Our Pal Nietzsche ] Re: eternal recurrence





                          > I think some
                          > metaphysical visions support ugly ethics, and I put Christianity in this
                          > class, but that does not lead me to deny metaphysics wholesale.
                          >
                          Nor me. Nor anti-metaphysics either, which often has a point.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • johnstewartmoore
                          ... Like terror of Hell? ... You mean the rest of metaphysics and antimetaphysics? Is this pragmatism again? If so is itself a metaphysical theory.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 11, 2012
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                            --- In ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Christopher June" <perfectidius@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I would suggest that ALL experience is by nature positive, and regards the
                            > real, and that whatever experience metaphysics and antimetaphysics expose
                            > are by nature real and useful.

                            Like terror of Hell?

                            > the rest is mere apparatus.

                            You mean the rest of metaphysics and antimetaphysics? Is this pragmatism again? If so is itself a metaphysical theory.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Daniel Christopher June
                            ~@M@~ / perfectidius.com From: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnstewartmoore Sent: Wednesday, April
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 11, 2012
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                              \ ~@M@~ /

                              perfectidius.com



                              From: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnstewartmoore
                              Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:41 AM
                              To: ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [Our Pal Nietzsche ] Re: eternal recurrence







                              --- In ourpalnietzsche@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:ourpalnietzsche%40yahoogroups.com> , "Daniel Christopher June"
                              <perfectidius@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I would suggest that ALL experience is by nature positive, and regards the
                              > real, and that whatever experience metaphysics and antimetaphysics expose
                              > are by nature real and useful.

                              Like terror of Hell?

                              ==== yes, the terror of hell is a positive experience, by which I mean, it
                              has content. There is no hell is a negative assertion even though it might
                              make us feel positive. I don't want to get gummed up on verbiage. What I am
                              saying is that experience is positive in that it exists and is real in and
                              of itself as an experience. But how does one experience a negation? A
                              negation is ALSO a positive experience with a sense of angst and non-being.

                              ==== There are no pink elephants, one might say. You may imagine a pink
                              elephant andthen imagine a blackness or gap to resemble their nonexistence.
                              But in a way, negations are unthinkable. Experience is by nature positive.
                              Even torture is a "positive" experience in that it has content and
                              countrour. I did not mean positive as in pleasurable.



                              > the rest is mere apparatus.

                              You mean the rest of metaphysics and antimetaphysics? Is this pragmatism
                              again? If so is itself a metaphysical theory.



                              ====I am attempting a meta-metaphysical theory. I am saying that all
                              metaphysical language is only and always a symbolif framework for ethics.
                              Metaphysics does also have the possibility of scientific verification or
                              denial, as in the old man is the center of the universe paradigm. That
                              metaphysic claimed to be a science, but its ethical meaning is clear enough:
                              man is most important from God's view point, the most important being in the
                              universe. This is by no means disrpoved by science. The universe could have
                              its scientific shape, and man yet be themost important to god.



                              ====daniel



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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