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Re: [Orthognathic Surgery Support ] Re: Extreme Makeover + quick fixes

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  • Margaret Jennings
    I am having my upper jaw surgery next week. I ve been in upper braces for 16 months and lowers for 11 months. I first started noticing that I would grind my
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
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      I am having my upper jaw surgery next week. I've been in upper braces for
      16 months and lowers for 11 months. I first started noticing that I would
      grind my teeth at night about 15 years ago; and I have had a bite guard
      since 1994. My referral to the orthodontist was made (thru my dentist) by
      my hygienist. Her kids go to the same orthodontist.

      I would have liked to know that I could have benefited from oral surgery 10
      years ago before I spent nearly 10 grand replacing a lot of my teeth with
      crowns.

      I'm a private payer since my insurance doesn't cover this procedure. Braces
      were $5700 and the surgery is $5450. If my OS didn't have such a sweet deal
      with the hospital (and my being a private payer) I'd probably be billed
      8-10K for this surgery. I have TriCare and Premera Blue Cross and neither
      one covers any part of it.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • amygtcheer
      I had a very close friend who was against any sort of cosmetic surgery as well. Our other good friend said it best to her. She said that there are varying
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
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        I had a very close friend who was against any sort of cosmetic
        surgery as well. Our other good friend said it best to her. She
        said that there are varying degrees one will go to to improve
        themselves. On the one end, there is make up. At the other end,
        there is cosmetic surgery. The friend against cosmetic surgery went
        on to say she thought it was wrong and you shouldn't change what God
        made, blah, blah. My friend then went on to ask her, "Did God give
        you blond hair?" After that, my friend against cosmetic procedures
        never said another word.

        --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Vhurgo
        <vhurgo@y...> wrote:
        > I guess it depends on whether you want people to know about your
        full situation as to whether you tell them. I suppose I am just
        happier to keep this to myself. Everyone is obviously fully aware of
        the braces but I just want to get through the surgery in private.
        When I had my nose job, NO ONE noticed, not even my own mother!! I
        had mentioned it to a handful of people to start with so they
        wouldn't be shocked or surprised but no one noticed anyway. I
        shouldn't have bothered! But I did get some opinions I didn't want or
        ask for - you know the people who don't believe any type of cosmetic
        surgery is necessary.
        > If someone is willing to share with me their concerns about their
        jaw or seem to want it fixed I would possibly mention the possibility
        of them having surgery especially if they already have braces.
        Depends on who they are. Most likely I wouldn't say anything in most
        cases. That's just me.
        >
        > amygtcheer <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        >
        > Well, I am a very open person. Some people are so hush, hush and
        > deny any plastic surgery. I tell people I've had my nose fixed
        > because it had been broken at some point. The way I look at it is
        if
        > you want to improve yourself, be proud of it, don't deny it.
        >
        > However, suggesting something to other people is definitely a
        tricky
        > situation. Some people can be very offended. I would use your
        > situation and give them more info than they really cared to know
        > about your situation. i.e. Tell them why you're doing it in
        detail
        > and they may see themselves in your description and ask you more
        > questions. Then you are free to talk more openly. However, if
        they
        > just ignore you or don't really say anything, chances are that if
        you
        > say anything, they will be offended and that's the last thing you
        > would want to do.
        >
        > There's no really good way to just casually bring it up without
        some
        > sort of opener. i.e. they are wearing braces and you casually ask,
        > are you going to have orthognathic surgery too? as you smile and
        show
        > your braces.
        >
        > --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Tova Friedman
        > <teeze@m...> wrote:
        > > You are lucky your doctor was so honest and knowledgeable... Most
        > > doctors are just surgery happy, in my opinion.
        > >
        > > I have a question... occasionally I will meet someone who is
        > clearly a
        > > excellent candidate for this type of surgery. I have occasionally
        > tried
        > > to mention my surgery as a way to find out if they are familiar
        > with
        > > it. SOOOO many people are not and I want to help them but feel
        like
        > I
        > > am being too invasive. One woman I worked with was wearing braces
        > for
        > > the 3rd time in her life (she was in the 30's) and she had a
        severe
        > > overbite. When I casually mentioned this type of surgery to
        her...
        > she
        > > had no idea what I was talking about. I know going through the
        > surgery
        > > myself is a valid opening point but is there a non offensive way
        to
        > > mention it to people you don't really even know but want to help?
        > >
        > > Thanks, T.
        > >
        > > On Jan 31, 2005, at 10:17 AM, amygtcheer wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > > I agree about the Extreme Makeover. I had rhinoplasty before
        I
        > got
        > > > married (really glad I did it). I just had a small hump
        removed
        > and
        > > > most people couldn't tell I had anything done. Anyway, my
        > surgeon
        > > > mentioned my weak chin (i have an overbite). He told me up
        front
        > > > there was a "quick fix" by having a chin implant and then
        there
        > was
        > > > the correct way by going through surgery. I decided against
        the
        > chin
        > > > implant and he told me that if I ever wanted to do the long
        way,
        > to
        > > > let him know, he knew of a good doctor. . . .Well, now, 3 years
        > > > later, I am just starting the "correct way" and I am really
        glad
        > that
        > > > I didn't do the chin implant first after hearing your story.
        I
        > am
        > > > thankful that my doctor told me the other option.
        > > >
        > > > --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Vhurgo
        > > > <vhurgo@y...> wrote:
        > > > > Hi Erika,
        > > > > Funny you say that. I watch extreme makeover and it kind of
        > makes
        > > > me angry when people are given veneers and chin implants as
        quick
        > > > fixes. That's fine they can do what they want but I only think
        > of the
        > > > fact that I went in for a nose job once and mentioned my weak
        > chin to
        > > > the plastic surgeon and he suggested a chin implant. I thought
        > that
        > > > would fix my problem but it didn't. I had never heard of this
        > surgery
        > > > so did not know I was just getting a quick fix. Anyway when I
        > went to
        > > > see an OD about my teeth I broke down a little and told him my
        > > > issues. He suggested the surgery which blew me away as I had
        > never
        > > > heard of it. Although I had gotten veneers a long time ago as
        > another
        > > > quick fix for my crooked teeth my bite was still off with an
        > overbite
        > > > and overjet. And they don't look fake, they are quite natural
        > which
        > > > was great!! Anyway when I got my wisdoms out I also got my chin
        > > > implant taken out and that was a relief to be honest! I didn't
        > really
        > > > like it. The surgeon actually picked that I
        > > > > had one when I first saw him which surprised me but he is a
        > > > professional.
        > > > > Now I am doing this properly with braces and surgery. I am
        > actually
        > > > a bit of a case study for my OD with what I have gone through.
        > So yes
        > > > I feel like I am on an extended extreme makeover!
        > > > > And I have only told one person about the upcoming surgery
        > whom I
        > > > trust as I think it you don't want anyone's opinion don't tell
        > > > anyone. I do a lot of spotting of who could use surgery too
        and
        > also
        > > > keep an eye on the stars as I know a bit about it now.
        > > > > S
        > > > >
        > > > > oighrig77 <oighrig77@y...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Does anyone on here feel like they are going through (or have
        > > > > already gone through) an extreme makeover, like the ones on
        > TV? Ppl
        > > > > have already referenced this to me (which is a little rude!
        > but I
        > > > > can certainly understand=) ~ not only will my facial
        structure
        > > > > change but I think there will be some other changes in my
        life
        > for
        > > > > the better.
        > > > >
        > > > > Speaking of that show ~ I have seen SO MANY contestants who
        > > > > desperately needed jaw surgery but they all end up getting
        chin
        > > > > implants and veneers etc. It's sad! I think a lot of
        veneers
        > look
        > > > > fake ~ especially when they plunk thick ones on top of really
        > > > > crooked teeth. I mean dentures would look better LOL
        > > > >
        > > > > In another thread there was a discussion about spotting ppl
        who
        > > > need
        > > > > the surgery, and celebrities who could use it. I mainly find
        > > > myself
        > > > > spotting "real" ppl rather than celebrities b/c let's face
        it,
        > in
        > > > > order to be a famous actor/actress you need a decent bite
        and
        > smile
        > > > > above everything else!
        > > > > Erika
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ---------------------------------
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      • ceast36532
        I think you chart the safest course, Vhurgo, although not many of us can manage to keep this stuff to ourselves, as it is something that seems to sort of take
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
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          I think you chart the safest course, Vhurgo, although not many of us
          can manage to keep this stuff to ourselves, as it is something that
          seems to sort of take over our thoughts for a while pre-op.

          As for telling someone else what to do -- I'm with you. I'm very
          reluctant to make ANY personal remarks about anyone else, unless it's
          something that will definitely be perceived as a positive
          compliment. "That's a gorgeous new hairdo, isn't it?" or "That
          necktie is so handsome!"

          I guess I, too, have been on the receiving end of too
          many "helpful" "constructive criticism" that were unsolicited.

          Cammie

          --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Vhurgo
          <vhurgo@y...> wrote:
          > I guess it depends on whether you want people to know about your
          full situation as to whether you tell them. I suppose I am just
          happier to keep this to myself. Everyone is obviously fully aware of
          the braces but I just want to get through the surgery in private.
          When I had my nose job, NO ONE noticed, not even my own mother!! I
          had mentioned it to a handful of people to start with so they
          wouldn't be shocked or surprised but no one noticed anyway. I
          shouldn't have bothered! But I did get some opinions I didn't want or
          ask for - you know the people who don't believe any type of cosmetic
          surgery is necessary.
          > If someone is willing to share with me their concerns about their
          jaw or seem to want it fixed I would possibly mention the possibility
          of them having surgery especially if they already have braces.
          Depends on who they are. Most likely I wouldn't say anything in most
          cases. That's just me.
        • ceast36532
          I don t think I ve ever watched any of these shows. But from what I have heard of them, sometimes the fixes they do for unbalanced jaws are far from remedial
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
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            I don't think I've ever watched any of these shows. But from what I
            have heard of them, sometimes the fixes they do for unbalanced jaws
            are far from remedial for the real problems.

            I have nothing against veneers (nor losing weight, for that matter)
            and would actually love to be able to afford the four across the top
            front that all my dentists have recommended. (I can't)

            But I really would not wanting someone trying to fix my gummy smile,
            if I had one, by stitching a lip down to the gums, which I have heard
            that at least one of them does. I would also wonder whether their
            superficial "fixes" might get in the way of true structural repair,
            should that ever be needed. I don't know the answer, but would be
            sure to ask that question carefully of dentists I trusted before
            letting any "cosmetic" approach go at my face.

            Cammie

            --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Vhurgo
            <vhurgo@y...> wrote:
            > I really think that they give all the contestants the same veneers
            and for some reason they look fake. Makes them look like drag queens.
            >
            > str8teeth4me <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            > I've actually printed out the application for Extreme Makeover twice
            > -- but something stops me from going through with it. Much as I want
            > to have a more attractive face (and lose weight), I don't want a
            quick
            > fix; I want to do things right. I think some of the EM people look
            > freakish afterwards. One woman I saw looked like a drag queen. I
            want
            > a more authentic beauty, I guess. Luna
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • franesmith2000
            Hi Tova, I am one of the people who apparently had a major problem with my jaw but I never had a clue until a few weeks ago. I have had regular dental visits
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
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              Hi Tova,
              I am one of the people who apparently had a major problem with my
              jaw but I never had a clue until a few weeks ago. I have had
              regular dental visits 2x/year forever. I have NEVER EVER heard
              anything about this. When our old dentist retired, the new dentist
              immediately informed me of the problem. I had all these symptoms,
              but had no clue they were related to an underlying condition. He
              knew the first time he saw me. Before I opened my mouth!

              I thought maybe he was mistaken, even though when I tipped my head
              back and looked in a mirror, I could see what he was talking about.
              And though I DO now know people eat usually with food IN their mouth
              not from their cheeks (I swear I didn't know you are supposed to eat
              with food actually IN your mouth), but the orthodontists I have
              since been to (so far - I still have 2 more consults to go), agreed
              as soon as they looked at me when they walked in the room.
              Apparently it is the length of my face from where my nose meets my
              face to the chin above the chin pad that tips them off. Now I see
              it with other people too! All the time! I must admit I don't see
              see people with as small of lower face length as I have. But now I
              notice the bite patterns you have been mentioning here on the board
              too! And I see this everywhere. I had no idea this was such a
              common problem. Why don't people know about this? How can you go
              half a century without hearing this at some point and time?

              I am 51 and have had some non-related surgeries that are relatively
              unknown and yet have a lot of symptoms for older women. Whenever I
              am around one or a few women my age, I will start talking about my
              experiences. I don't usually mention to them that they might have
              this problem (sometime I am more rigerous if it is mentioned on a
              web site related to this type of discussion), but I talk about the
              SYMPTOMS I had. If they make no comment immediately like "gee I do
              that too!!", I let it go. No one really likes to hear about someone
              else's surgery if it doesn't obviously impact them in some way!
              hahaha

              But if they do say "gee that sounds like me", I mention a few more
              symptoms. You can usually tell if you are talking to someone who
              should be hearing what you are saying. If they are, I do go into
              quite a lot of detail about it. But I never mention that they
              should do something about it. That is for them to decide for
              themselves. I just tell them about my own situation and recovery
              from those symptoms. I may tell them about a few other people I
              have talked to who then also had the surgery, and if they are
              interested, they will ask me who I went to to have it checked.

              THEN I tell them about the process. This works for me because I am
              really really open about anything I have done, cosmetically or
              functionally. I don't mind embarassing myself by talking about what
              is usually a private matter if in doing so someone will get an idea
              of something to help their own situation. But I also don't tell
              them initially I think they may have the same problem.

              If out of the blue, someone mentions symptoms that I KNOW are
              related and should be looked at promptly, I simply ask them if they
              have ever discussed this with a professional. If they have, I don't
              need to say more. If they haven't I will give them more
              information. If they seem really open, I will tell lots of details
              and tell them they should see a professional to check it out. But I
              still don't tell them THEY have a problem! They can decide that for
              themself when they talk to their professional.

              Usually telling them your symptoms lets them identify with you and
              makes them start thinking. If it is someone you know well, it will
              come up more than once over a period of time as they start thinking
              about it. If it is someone you don't know well and it is an obvious
              problem, you might be a little more aggressive with your
              explanation. This is just a suggestion. I think it would have been
              soooooooooo much better to have done this years ago, like you said,
              before you had spent money fixing dental work that now is
              worthless. And I would have liked to have extra years of enjoying
              what it is going to be like having a functional mouth for the first
              time in my life! If the person has a more minimal problem though, I
              would take a much easier approach.

              It is a difficult call to share this kind of information, but I
              think it is kinder to do SOMETHING, even if it is wrong or taken
              badly. That said, if you are mentioning your own SYMPTOMS or the
              symptoms of someone you know who has a similar problem to the person
              you are talking with, you can navigate without appearing overly
              intrusive.

              I love this post!
              Fran


              --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Tova Friedman
              <teeze@m...> wrote:
              > I know it's not my business to mention this to people as a means
              of
              > teaching them about it, but I asked the question because it seems
              SO
              > FEW people have ever even heard of this or know it exists! I only
              > learned about it because my boyfriend is a research hound and he
              was
              > trying to figure out why I snored and what the deal was with my
              > overbite. When I first started visiting orthodontists, the two I
              met
              > with were both highly regarded and I learned later, teachers at
              NYU
              > dental school. I knew to ask about the procedure because of the
              > research we had done. The first orthodontist told me she could
              tell
              > just by looking at my face that I was not a candidate for this
              surgery.
              > She also tried to convince me my top center line was off. (My
              bottom
              > center line was off... not the top.) The second orthodontist said
              it
              > was possible that I was a candidate for the surgery but he would
              not be
              > able to tell without full molds, x-rays, an eventual consult from
              the
              > OS and a full sleep study. I eventually got the braces and the
              surgery.
              > I am pretty certain neither of them (certainly not the first)
              would
              > have told me about the surgery unless I asked. So when I became
              friends
              > with this woman in her 30's, wearing braces for the 3rd time and
              with a
              > seriously, seriously weak chin, I could not BELIEVE she had never
              even
              > HEARD of the surgery! They had pulled healthy teeth from the top
              of
              > her mouth so they could bracket them and yank them back to meet
              her
              > recessed bottom ones, and her teeth simply refused to stay in that
              > position so she just kept getting braces to "train" her teeth. It
              made
              > me very sad - and rather angry- that no-one- and she had obviously
              met
              > with many "professionals" in 35 years- had bothered to tell this
              > woman about the procedure! Now, when I meet people that seem like
              they
              > might be dealing with similar issues, I will tiptoe towards the
              issue
              > and see if they have even heard the word "orthognathic". 8 out of
              10
              > have not. It's just sad and odd... you see every kind of
              disfiguring
              > &/or heroic surgery on TV but I've never, ever seen anything on
              > anything like this. Just those quick, cosmetic fixes...
              > Am I wrong and just ranting?
              > T.
              >
              > On Jan 31, 2005, at 1:54 PM, Sharon Hansen wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com,
              > > fiddlesticks220002 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I know a few people whom I figure could benefit from this
              surgery
              > > > (underbites are the easiest to tell), but I would never, ever
              tell
              > > > them. > I agree with the member here that says it's really not
              > > your business.
              > >
              > > ## On the other hand, there are people who could benefit that
              may
              > > not know about it and may not otherwise find out.  I'm
              actually
              a
              > > perfect example of this.  My family dentists over the years
              have had
              > > to see how off my bite is, but none of them has ever mentioned
              it. 
              > > I've had work done, I've had x-rays and nobody ever even
              recommended
              > > orthodontia, let alone surgery.  When I decided on my own to
              see an
              > > orthodontist about slight crowding, I found out that surgery
              was an
              > > option to permanently fix my bite.  Until I saw that
              orthodontist, I
              > > didn't even know I have a problem with my bite!  I don't
              think
              I'd
              > > have been offended or upset if someone had suggested tactfully
              to me
              > > that I might look into surgery for my problem.  I think I
              might
              have
              > > appreciated knowing about this years ago. 
              > >
              > > Sharon
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthognathicsurgerysupport/
              > >  
              > > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > orthognathicsurgerysupport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >  
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              > > Service.
              > >
              > >
              >
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            • Vhurgo
              Cammie, I am pretty happy to just let it all out to the one friend becuase this has definitely taken over my thoughts for a long already and a long time to
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
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                Cammie, I am pretty happy to just let it all out to the one friend becuase this has definitely taken over my thoughts for a long already and a long time to come. But I guess if there was a husband and kids it would be different. They would need to know. Obviously I am able to talk to all about braces but I think the surgery I prefer to handle alone. I am not exactly sure why but I really don't want to go about justifying things like this which I am doing for my benefit. I think I might have too and I find that way too tiring.
                As my friend said, once the decision is made and you have committed myself I don't want to hear that it's a bad idea. It was really hard to come to peace with this and any doubt put into my head at this point does not help.
                I do know for others it's a completely different situation.

                ceast36532 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                I think you chart the safest course, Vhurgo, although not many of us
                can manage to keep this stuff to ourselves, as it is something that
                seems to sort of take over our thoughts for a while pre-op.

                As for telling someone else what to do -- I'm with you. I'm very
                reluctant to make ANY personal remarks about anyone else, unless it's
                something that will definitely be perceived as a positive
                compliment. "That's a gorgeous new hairdo, isn't it?" or "That
                necktie is so handsome!"

                I guess I, too, have been on the receiving end of too
                many "helpful" "constructive criticism" that were unsolicited.

                Cammie

                --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Vhurgo
                <vhurgo@y...> wrote:
                > I guess it depends on whether you want people to know about your
                full situation as to whether you tell them. I suppose I am just
                happier to keep this to myself. Everyone is obviously fully aware of
                the braces but I just want to get through the surgery in private.
                When I had my nose job, NO ONE noticed, not even my own mother!! I
                had mentioned it to a handful of people to start with so they
                wouldn't be shocked or surprised but no one noticed anyway. I
                shouldn't have bothered! But I did get some opinions I didn't want or
                ask for - you know the people who don't believe any type of cosmetic
                surgery is necessary.
                > If someone is willing to share with me their concerns about their
                jaw or seem to want it fixed I would possibly mention the possibility
                of them having surgery especially if they already have braces.
                Depends on who they are. Most likely I wouldn't say anything in most
                cases. That's just me.






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              • ceast36532
                Fran, How can you go half a century without hearing this at some point and time? One reason, Fran, is that the technologies have become so vastly improved,
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Fran,

                  "How can you go half a century without hearing this at some point and
                  time?"

                  One reason, Fran, is that the technologies have become so vastly
                  improved, even in the last 10 or 15 years, that the procedures are
                  more generally available than they once were.

                  When surgeons had to use open incisions, and keep people in the
                  hospital for a week or more, infection was a huge threat. They were
                  more likely to reserve these procedures for people whose needs were
                  severe.

                  Now, with the development of rigid internal fixation with titanium
                  screws and plates (or, experimentally, even resorbable polymers) the
                  surgeries are easier -- for both docs and patients -- and the
                  procedures are more widely available to resolve problems that are
                  less severe. They can now do the whole thing with either almost or
                  totally incisions within the mouth, so one doesn't have those great
                  gaping incisions. They are also easier and much less risky. At least
                  so i have been told.

                  (If you know anybody who's had a laparascopic gall bladder procedure,
                  and anybody who had one done the old-fashioned way, you'll see what
                  I'm talking about. Same is true with hernia repair, and removal of
                  kidney, and probably a lot of other procedures, too.)

                  In addition, back when I had ortho in the 1950s, orthodontists didn't
                  understand as much as we know now about the importance of matching
                  the jaws. Both my ortho and my surgeon told me they understood
                  exactly what my first ortho had done, in pulling my front teeth back
                  from the overjet, and raking them in. "I'd have done the same thing,"
                  both of them told me. "Back then, we just unravelled things and
                  said 'we're done,'" my surgeon said. (Actually, back then, if he was
                  more than a twinkle in his papa's eye, he was in diapers, but never
                  mind that -- increasingly that's true of all my docs, and Judith
                  Viorst has a very funny poem about turning her life over to a bunch
                  of kids with initials behind their names. Thing is, these "kids" are
                  much more knowledgeable, more communicative, more likely to involve
                  their patients in their own care, etc., etc. Much better deal for
                  both patients and docs, I think!)

                  Regards,

                  cammie

                  --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, "franesmith2000"
                  <franesmith2000@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Tova,
                  > I am one of the people who apparently had a major problem with my
                  > jaw but I never had a clue until a few weeks ago. I have had
                  > regular dental visits 2x/year forever. I have NEVER EVER heard
                  > anything about this. When our old dentist retired, the new dentist
                  > immediately informed me of the problem. I had all these symptoms,
                  > but had no clue they were related to an underlying condition. He
                  > knew the first time he saw me. Before I opened my mouth!
                  >
                  > I thought maybe he was mistaken, even though when I tipped my head
                  > back and looked in a mirror, I could see what he was talking
                  about.
                  > And though I DO now know people eat usually with food IN their
                  mouth
                  > not from their cheeks (I swear I didn't know you are supposed to
                  eat
                  > with food actually IN your mouth), but the orthodontists I have
                  > since been to (so far - I still have 2 more consults to go), agreed
                  > as soon as they looked at me when they walked in the room.
                  > Apparently it is the length of my face from where my nose meets my
                  > face to the chin above the chin pad that tips them off. Now I see
                  > it with other people too! All the time! I must admit I don't see
                  > see people with as small of lower face length as I have. But now I
                  > notice the bite patterns you have been mentioning here on the board
                  > too! And I see this everywhere. I had no idea this was such a
                  > common problem. Why don't people know about this? How can you go
                  > half a century without hearing this at some point and time?
                • ceast36532
                  You are also wise, Vhurgo, I think, to realise that some people -- more than most of us expect -- will expect us to justify our decisions to them. I have
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You are also wise, Vhurgo, I think, to realise that some people --
                    more than most of us expect -- will expect us to "justify" our
                    decisions to them. I have been amazed at the number of folks who have
                    figured that they could/should second-guess the decisions I and my
                    professionals made with regard to my health.

                    In my case, it wasn't bad, and was mostly meant kindly, as in "I
                    don't see anything wrong with your teeth now." (Answer: No, you
                    don't, thank goodness, but you're not my periodontist, who tells me
                    there won't BE any teeth pretty soon if I don't do this!)

                    I was fortunate in that my husband was most supportive -- if
                    anything, frustrated that I needed almost no help, post-op. But some
                    parents take it almost as a personal attack, as do some husbands and
                    siblings. I don't understand, but I do recognize the syndrome when I
                    see it, and it must be most disheartening for the patient, who
                    already has full hands, head and heart in deciding to go ahead!

                    Cammie

                    --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Vhurgo
                    <vhurgo@y...> wrote:
                    > Cammie, I am pretty happy to just let it all out to the one friend
                    becuase this has definitely taken over my thoughts for a long already
                    and a long time to come. But I guess if there was a husband and kids
                    it would be different. They would need to know. Obviously I am able
                    to talk to all about braces but I think the surgery I prefer to
                    handle alone. I am not exactly sure why but I really don't want to go
                    about justifying things like this which I am doing for my benefit. I
                    think I might have too and I find that way too tiring.
                    > As my friend said, once the decision is made and you have committed
                    myself I don't want to hear that it's a bad idea. It was really hard
                    to come to peace with this and any doubt put into my head at this
                    point does not help.
                    > I do know for others it's a completely different situation.
                  • Tova Friedman
                    Fran, Thanks for posting your story... That is how I go about mentioning it to others... gauging what they wanna hear by their interest and questions. I am
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Fran,

                      Thanks for posting your story... That is how I go about mentioning it
                      to others... gauging what they wanna hear by their interest and
                      questions. I am also more than happy to share all the gory details with
                      anyone who'll hear them. I am only 8 days post-op and returned to work
                      yesterday. Everyone wanted to know what happened and I just sat and
                      told all the details until they told me they could not listen to to my
                      mumbling for another minute... I think they were nervous something in
                      my mouth would break. Unless it was my bad breath... (Any hints on how
                      to deal with THAT??)

                      About 2 years ago,, right after I got on my braces, I went out to
                      drinks with a friend, her boyfriend, and a friend of his. The friend
                      was nice and we chatted for a while. I have a boyfriend so it was just
                      casual conversation. He was a 27 year old Criminal Trial Attorney
                      (imagine how much self-confidence THAT requires!) who grew up in NY and
                      had been orthodontically treated for his underdeveloped jaw by having
                      his top teeth yanked back. He had beautifully straight, white teeth
                      which were all very recessed from where they should have been. I did
                      mention the surgery to him (as my own situation) and he listened...
                      he'd never heard of it and didn't ask too many questions but listened.
                      We said goodnight and I've never seen him since (my friend no longer
                      dates his friend)

                      Since my surgery, I can't get this guy out of my head. He was so nice-
                      not arrogant or cocky- and probably would benefit greatly from the
                      surgery. I have day dreams of running into him in the street with my
                      post-surgery face and seeing if he ever looked into it. I know I'm not
                      the world's savior, but I feel like I've discovered something here that
                      is like a gold-mine no-one knows about!

                      -Tova

                      On Feb 1, 2005, at 5:17 PM, ceast36532 wrote:

                      >
                      > Fran,
                      >
                      > "How can you go half a century without hearing this at some point and
                      > time?"
                      >
                      > One reason, Fran, is that the technologies have become so vastly
                      > improved, even in the last 10 or 15 years, that the procedures are
                      > more generally available than they once were.
                      >
                      > When surgeons had to use open incisions, and keep people in the
                      > hospital for a week or more, infection was a huge threat. They were
                      > more likely to reserve these procedures for people whose needs were
                      > severe.
                      >
                      > Now, with the development of rigid internal fixation with titanium
                      > screws and plates (or, experimentally, even resorbable polymers) the
                      > surgeries are easier -- for both docs and patients -- and the
                      > procedures are more widely available to resolve problems that are
                      > less severe. They can now do the whole thing with either almost or
                      > totally incisions within the mouth, so one doesn't have those great
                      > gaping incisions. They are also easier and much less risky. At least
                      > so i have been told.
                      >
                      > (If you know anybody who's had a laparascopic gall bladder procedure,
                      > and anybody who had one done the old-fashioned way, you'll see what
                      > I'm talking about. Same is true with hernia repair, and removal of
                      > kidney, and probably a lot of other procedures, too.)
                      >
                      > In addition, back when I had ortho in the 1950s, orthodontists didn't
                      > understand as much as we know now about the importance of matching
                      > the jaws. Both my ortho and my surgeon told me they understood
                      > exactly what my first ortho had done, in pulling my front teeth back
                      > from the overjet, and raking them in. "I'd have done the same thing,"
                      > both of them told me. "Back then, we just unravelled things and
                      > said 'we're done,'" my surgeon said. (Actually, back then, if he was
                      > more than a twinkle in his papa's eye, he was in diapers, but never
                      > mind that -- increasingly that's true of all my docs, and Judith
                      > Viorst has a very funny poem about turning her life over to a bunch
                      > of kids with initials behind their names. Thing is, these "kids" are
                      > much more knowledgeable, more communicative, more likely to involve
                      > their patients in their own care, etc., etc. Much better deal for
                      > both patients and docs, I think!)
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > cammie
                      >
                      > --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, "franesmith2000"
                      > <franesmith2000@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Tova,
                      > > I am one of the people who apparently had a major problem with my
                      > > jaw but I never had a clue until a few weeks ago.� I have had
                      > > regular dental visits 2x/year forever.� I have NEVER EVER heard
                      > > anything about this.� When our old dentist retired, the new dentist
                      > > immediately informed me of the problem.� I had all these symptoms,
                      > > but had no clue they were related to an underlying condition.� He
                      > > knew the first time he saw me. Before I opened my mouth!
                      > >
                      > > I thought maybe he was mistaken, even though when I tipped my head
                      > > back and looked in a mirror, I could see what he was talking
                      > about.�
                      > > And though I DO now know people eat usually with food IN their
                      > mouth
                      > > not from their cheeks (I swear I didn't know you are supposed to
                      > eat
                      > > with food actually IN your mouth), but the orthodontists I have
                      > > since been to (so far - I still have 2 more consults to go), agreed
                      > > as soon as they looked at me when they walked in the room.�
                      > > Apparently it is the length of my face from where my nose meets my
                      > > face to the chin above the chin pad that tips them off.� Now I see
                      > > it with other people too!� All the time! I must admit I don't see
                      > > see people with as small of lower face length as I have.� But now I
                      > > notice the bite patterns you have been mentioning here on the board
                      > > too!� And I see this everywhere.� I had no idea this was such a
                      > > common problem.� Why don't people know about this?� How can you go
                      > > half a century without hearing this at some point and time?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthognathicsurgerysupport/
                      > �
                      > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > orthognathicsurgerysupport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > �
                      > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Vhurgo
                      Thanks Cammie for your words. I guess that my fear of having to justify comes from the fact that since I now have veneers and braces on those that people
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks Cammie for your words. I guess that my fear of having to justify comes from the fact that since I now have veneers and braces on those that people wonder why I have them if my teeth are straight. I can only imagine how explaining jury surgery would be. I don't anyone will even notice!
                        It is certainly a thought provoking subject.

                        ceast36532 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        You are also wise, Vhurgo, I think, to realise that some people --
                        more than most of us expect -- will expect us to "justify" our
                        decisions to them. I have been amazed at the number of folks who have
                        figured that they could/should second-guess the decisions I and my
                        professionals made with regard to my health.

                        In my case, it wasn't bad, and was mostly meant kindly, as in "I
                        don't see anything wrong with your teeth now." (Answer: No, you
                        don't, thank goodness, but you're not my periodontist, who tells me
                        there won't BE any teeth pretty soon if I don't do this!)

                        I was fortunate in that my husband was most supportive -- if
                        anything, frustrated that I needed almost no help, post-op. But some
                        parents take it almost as a personal attack, as do some husbands and
                        siblings. I don't understand, but I do recognize the syndrome when I
                        see it, and it must be most disheartening for the patient, who
                        already has full hands, head and heart in deciding to go ahead!

                        Cammie

                        --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Vhurgo
                        <vhurgo@y...> wrote:
                        > Cammie, I am pretty happy to just let it all out to the one friend
                        becuase this has definitely taken over my thoughts for a long already
                        and a long time to come. But I guess if there was a husband and kids
                        it would be different. They would need to know. Obviously I am able
                        to talk to all about braces but I think the surgery I prefer to
                        handle alone. I am not exactly sure why but I really don't want to go
                        about justifying things like this which I am doing for my benefit. I
                        think I might have too and I find that way too tiring.
                        > As my friend said, once the decision is made and you have committed
                        myself I don't want to hear that it's a bad idea. It was really hard
                        to come to peace with this and any doubt put into my head at this
                        point does not help.
                        > I do know for others it's a completely different situation.






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                      • franesmith2000
                        Hi Tova and Cammie, Thank you both for replying. Tova, I love the story about dinner with your friend s friend. It is funny how little moments like this
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Tova and Cammie,
                          Thank you both for replying. Tova, I love the story about dinner
                          with your friend's friend. It is funny how little moments like this
                          stick in our mind and can even influence how we speak to others in
                          the future. I have had that with another procedure I have had, and
                          when you spark a light in someone, you have to wonder if they make
                          the same life changing decision as you have made. It is a type of
                          empathy I think. We know what a change it can or has made for us,
                          and we hope they will have a similar positive situation in their
                          life. I hope you do run into him sometime. Even if he hasn't taken
                          this up for himself, perhaps seeing you might get him going!

                          Thank you Cammie for sharing the information about the changes in
                          this field. I am really new to this, and that goes a long way to
                          explaining why it was never brought up before. I have never had
                          orthodontia and my teeth are straight and even. This is a jaw
                          problem, and probably wouldn't have been a candidate even though it
                          is a real problem for me. But it wouldn't be so serious that I
                          would consider open incisions and all! I do think though, that some
                          of our initial care providers, our regular dentists, may not all
                          have a good idea of what to do for unusual jaw situations either.
                          For me, I guess it was lucky for me that my new dentist is able to
                          address it now, and some of the problems I have can be alievitated.

                          Thank you again!
                          Fran

                          --- In orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, Tova Friedman
                          <teeze@m...> wrote:
                          > Fran,
                          >
                          > Thanks for posting your story... That is how I go about mentioning
                          it
                          > to others... gauging what they wanna hear by their interest and
                          > questions. I am also more than happy to share all the gory details
                          with
                          > anyone who'll hear them. I am only 8 days post-op and returned to
                          work
                          > yesterday. Everyone wanted to know what happened and I just sat
                          and
                          > told all the details until they told me they could not listen to
                          to my
                          > mumbling for another minute... I think they were nervous something
                          in
                          > my mouth would break. Unless it was my bad breath... (Any hints on
                          how
                          > to deal with THAT??)
                          >
                          > About 2 years ago,, right after I got on my braces, I went out to
                          > drinks with a friend, her boyfriend, and a friend of his. The
                          friend
                          > was nice and we chatted for a while. I have a boyfriend so it was
                          just
                          > casual conversation. He was a 27 year old Criminal Trial Attorney
                          > (imagine how much self-confidence THAT requires!) who grew up in
                          NY and
                          > had been orthodontically treated for his underdeveloped jaw by
                          having
                          > his top teeth yanked back. He had beautifully straight, white
                          teeth
                          > which were all very recessed from where they should have been. I
                          did
                          > mention the surgery to him (as my own situation) and he
                          listened...
                          > he'd never heard of it and didn't ask too many questions but
                          listened.
                          > We said goodnight and I've never seen him since (my friend no
                          longer
                          > dates his friend)
                          >
                          > Since my surgery, I can't get this guy out of my head. He was so
                          nice-
                          > not arrogant or cocky- and probably would benefit greatly from the
                          > surgery. I have day dreams of running into him in the street with
                          my
                          > post-surgery face and seeing if he ever looked into it. I know I'm
                          not
                          > the world's savior, but I feel like I've discovered something here
                          that
                          > is like a gold-mine no-one knows about!
                          >
                          > -Tova
                          >
                          > On Feb 1, 2005, at 5:17 PM, ceast36532 wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Fran,
                          > >
                          > > "How can you go half a century without hearing this at some
                          point and
                          > > time?"
                          > >
                          > > One reason, Fran, is that the technologies have become so vastly
                          > > improved, even in the last 10 or 15 years, that the procedures
                          are
                          > > more generally available than they once were.
                          > >
                          > > When surgeons had to use open incisions, and keep people in the
                          > > hospital for a week or more, infection was a huge threat. They
                          were
                          > > more likely to reserve these procedures for people whose needs
                          were
                          > > severe.
                          > >
                          > > Now, with the development of rigid internal fixation with
                          titanium
                          > > screws and plates (or, experimentally, even resorbable
                          polymers) the
                          > > surgeries are easier -- for both docs and patients -- and the
                          > > procedures are more widely available to resolve problems that
                          are
                          > > less severe. They can now do the whole thing with either almost
                          or
                          > > totally incisions within the mouth, so one doesn't have those
                          great
                          > > gaping incisions. They are also easier and much less risky. At
                          least
                          > > so i have been told.
                          > >
                          > > (If you know anybody who's had a laparascopic gall bladder
                          procedure,
                          > > and anybody who had one done the old-fashioned way, you'll see
                          what
                          > > I'm talking about. Same is true with hernia repair, and removal
                          of
                          > > kidney, and probably a lot of other procedures, too.)
                          > >
                          > > In addition, back when I had ortho in the 1950s, orthodontists
                          didn't
                          > > understand as much as we know now about the importance of
                          matching
                          > > the jaws. Both my ortho and my surgeon told me they understood
                          > > exactly what my first ortho had done, in pulling my front teeth
                          back
                          > > from the overjet, and raking them in. "I'd have done the same
                          thing,"
                          > > both of them told me. "Back then, we just unravelled things and
                          > > said 'we're done,'" my surgeon said. (Actually, back then, if
                          he was
                          > > more than a twinkle in his papa's eye, he was in diapers, but
                          never
                          > > mind that -- increasingly that's true of all my docs, and Judith
                          > > Viorst has a very funny poem about turning her life over to a
                          bunch
                          > > of kids with initials behind their names. Thing is,
                          these "kids" are
                          > > much more knowledgeable, more communicative, more likely to
                          involve
                          > > their patients in their own care, etc., etc. Much better deal
                          for
                          > > both patients and docs, I think!)
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > >
                          > > cammie
                          > >
                          > > --- In
                          orthognathicsurgerysupport@yahoogroups.com, "franesmith2000"
                          > > <franesmith2000@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Tova,
                          > > > I am one of the people who apparently had a major problem
                          with my
                          > > > jaw but I never had a clue until a few weeks ago.  I have had
                          > > > regular dental visits 2x/year forever.  I have NEVER EVER
                          heard
                          > > > anything about this.  When our old dentist retired, the new
                          dentist
                          > > > immediately informed me of the problem.  I had all these
                          symptoms,
                          > > > but had no clue they were related to an underlying
                          condition.  He
                          > > > knew the first time he saw me. Before I opened my mouth!
                          > > >
                          > > > I thought maybe he was mistaken, even though when I tipped my
                          head
                          > > > back and looked in a mirror, I could see what he was talking
                          > > about. 
                          > > > And though I DO now know people eat usually with food IN their
                          > > mouth
                          > > > not from their cheeks (I swear I didn't know you are supposed
                          to
                          > > eat
                          > > > with food actually IN your mouth), but the orthodontists I
                          have
                          > > > since been to (so far - I still have 2 more consults to go),
                          agreed
                          > > > as soon as they looked at me when they walked in the room. 
                          > > > Apparently it is the length of my face from where my nose
                          meets my
                          > > > face to the chin above the chin pad that tips them off.  Now
                          I see
                          > > > it with other people too!  All the time! I must admit I don't
                          see
                          > > > see people with as small of lower face length as I have.  But
                          now I
                          > > > notice the bite patterns you have been mentioning here on the
                          board
                          > > > too!  And I see this everywhere.  I had no idea this was such
                          a
                          > > > common problem.  Why don't people know about this?  How can
                          you go
                          > > > half a century without hearing this at some point and time?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthognathicsurgerysupport/
                          > >  
                          > > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > orthognathicsurgerysupport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >  
                          > > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                          Terms of
                          > > Service.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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