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Re: A change of topic, please!

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  • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
    My understanding was that the first lighter than air flight (Balloon) took place in Russia during the reign of Ivan Grosni. My brother always claimed that the
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 5, 2004
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      My understanding was that the first lighter than air flight (Balloon)
      took place in Russia during the reign of Ivan Grosni. My brother
      always claimed that the story in detail may have been a bit distorted
      but that there was a kernel of truth to the main point.

      What is the foundation, if any for such an account?

      I remember that in school (here in the States) when any inventions
      were discussed, no Russian inventors were ever credited properly for
      their contribution to the invention or development of any innovations.

      So I was sure that the Balloon flight was also an oversight as the others.




      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
      <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > Dear Father Stefan, bless.
      >
      > Considering the many hot confrontations that have taken place on this
      > forum, I think it is appropriate to glorify God whenever, as now, we
      > agree with one another in defending the purity of orthodoxy against
      > those who attack it, in this particular case, our fellow Russian, the
      > brilliant Tarkovsky.
      >
      > I think that this is more than just a social discussion about cinema.
      > I do not want to take any undue advantage from agreeing with you
      > about a film, but I am sure that if we were to scrap a little more
      > the surface, we would find much deeper agreement than many would
      > expect between many of us that consider themselves as antagonists of
      > one another. May God help us to dig in that direction.
      >
      > As you, I am proud about the Russian creativity and scientific
      > achievements. From what I found however, the Russian invention of
      > aerostation, which would have taken place, by the way, much later
      > than in Rubliev's time, about 50 years before the Montgolfier
      > experiment, might be a forgery, as seen below. The Russian inventor
      > might have been a German in fact. If it is so (I do not claim to have
      > a final opinion on the subject), let us disseminate the news, as
      > nothing can serve Russia better than the truth. She is sufficiently
      > glorious on her own. In aeronautics, she might have to content
      > herself with her sputniks, Tsiolkovsky, Sikorsky, Joukovsky, and a
      > few others.
      >
      > http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/Features/1stStrtgcBmbrSq.html
      >
      > Unfortunately, in sciences as in spirituality, Russians have reached
      > historical records both in lying and in proclaiming the truth. The
      > Lyssenko affair (see below) is about one of the mot shameful deceits
      > by Soviet scientists.
      >
      > It looks as though Russia can be only the best or the worst of all
      > nations. In spite of all, she is our beloved country. Let us pray God
      > that he help her to become only true.
      >
      > In God,
      >
      > Vladimir Kozyreff
      >
      > -----
      >
      > Aerostation
      >
      > In 1956 the book "Documents on the history of aeronautics and
      > aircraft in the USSR " was published. In the chapter
      > entitled "Aeronautics and aircraft in Russia until 1907", the story
      > of Kryakutnoy, who allegedly first-ever travelled in a balloon is
      > reported. This is given as the proof that the Russian were first in
      > the field of aeronautics.
      >
      > Incidentally, the process that created this nonexistent character is
      > well-known to the experts. As D.S. Likhachov reports, in the
      > chronicle's text "in 1731 in Ryazan under voyevod "podyachy"
      > nyeretkhtiets Kryakutnoy Furvin made a big balloon, inflated it with
      > a nasty and smelly smoke", it could be established by photographic
      > researches, that the word "nierekhtiets" is written on top of the
      > word "niemiets" (German), and the surname "Kryakutnoy" covers the
      > word "kreschenoy", as if to the surname "Furvin" a correction was
      > made to the initial "Furtsel". Despite the protests by experts,
      > Kryakutnoy continued his triumphal procession in the pages of the
      > scientific and popular scientific literature until the last decade of
      > the XXst century.
      >
      > Historical stories and mythology of the XXst century, Yury Shatin,
      > The Novosibirsk state pedagogical university, Criticism and
      > semiotics. May, 2002. pp. 100-108
      >
      > http://www.nsu.ru/education/virtual/cs5shatin.htm
      >
      > See also:
      >
      > http://www.utro.ru/column/2001082303201331381.shtml
      >
      > -----
      >
      > Scientific forgery in general, and Lyssenko specifically
      >
      > However, ideologies are not in themselves passive inert forms of
      > consciousness but are part and parcel of practical and symbolic
      > activities ; they federate interests, galvanize passions, permeate
      > institutions and sometimes become official through State action.
      > Consequently, their reaction to scientific news is often biased and
      > is aimed at either confirming or refuting it. In extreme cases, as
      > history has often shown, ideologies turn some items of information
      > into dogma and declare war on others.
      >
      >
      > The Lyssenko case is still the classic example of this. As, in the
      > USSR of the middle of this century, " Mendel-Morgan genetics" were
      > considered incompatible with Party and State philosophy, they were
      > totally censored for nearly twenty years, with disastrous
      > consequences in many fields....
      >
      > Ideologies thus emerge as very powerful selective distorting factors
      > in the transmission of scientific news, the more so as they bias the
      > judgement, not only of the public but also of journalists, and even
      > in large measure that of many scientists...
      >
      > http://www.ccne-ethique.fr/english/avis/a_045p02.htm
      >
      >
      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
      > <StefanVPavlenko@n...> wrote:
      > > I thought it (the film about "Rubliev") was a blasphemy, and an
      > > attempt to prove the triumph of "dvoe-veria" (mixture of pagan and
      > > Christian faith) over Orthodoxy in Russia!
      > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      > >
      > > PS: It is though, a historical FACT that it was a Russian who first
      > > flew in the air in a Lighter that air/hot air balloon!!!
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
      > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > > > Dear List,
      > > >
      > > > Speaking about Tarkovsky's Rubliov, I am not sure the film is
      > really
      > > > orthodox. It is certainly not historical. If I remember, the
      > script
      > > > goes that monk Andreï Roublev is chosen to paint frescos in a
      > > > cathedral, but he is disturbed by the subject: he cannot admit
      > that
      > > > God takes revenge on his creatures at the dread Judgement. Moved
      > by
      > > > the faith of original Christianity, he believes in a God of love
      > and
      > > > of pardon, and this condemns him to loneliness and doubt.
      > > >
      > > > I do not think that Tarkovsky had a good knowledge of what
      > monachism
      > > > and orthodoxy are about. Who told him that the Church did teach
      > the
      > > > vision against which his Rubliov struggled? Who told him that
      > > > believing in a God of love threw him, an orthodox monk, into
      > > > loneliness? The MP?
      > > >
      > > > In fact, this film was not totally disagreeable to the regime, as
      > it
      > > > gave a negative idea of the Church and presented Rubliev as a
      > kind of
      > > > protestant in rebellion against the Church and composing his
      > personal
      > > > orthodoxy. Considering that Rubliov painted among the most
      > beautiful
      > > > and most orthodox icons and frescoes, the film, whatever the
      > talent
      > > > of the author is almost a sacrilege. Please, Messrs. the non-
      > orthodox
      > > > film directors, keep your hands off orthodoxy before you convert.
      > > >
      > > > As you know, the regime was an expert in managing "dissidence" to
      > its
      > > > benefit (Vysotsky, Akhudjava, etc.)
      > > >
      > > > I confess that I saw the film a very long time ago, but the scent
      > of
      > > > it was very little orthodox and very much soviet in my memory.
      > > >
      > > > In God,
      > > >
      > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Herrin
      > > > <geraldherrin@e...> wrote:
      > > > > I am pleased to answer this, or at least give my opinion:
      > > > >
      > > > > 1) The Northern Thebaid: Monastic Saints of the Russian North
      > > > > 2) Early Fathers from the Philokalia, translated by E.
      > Kadloubovsky
      > > > and
      > > > > G.E,H. Palmer
      > > > > 3) Any of the biographies of the Optina Elders
      > > > > 4) Dostoevsky.... Crime and Punishment, The Demons, and the
      > > > Brothers
      > > > > Karamazov
      > > > > 5) Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (not Orthodox,
      > of
      > > > > course, but still one of the finest histories of the later
      > Roman
      > > > Empire
      > > > > in English)
      > > > > 6) Saint Augustine's Confessions
      > > > > 7) and could I watch Andrei Tarkovsky's Andrei Rublev and
      > Fellini's
      > > > La
      > > > > Strada on this desert island?
      > > > >
      > > > > My suggestions for myself ....
      > > > >
      > > > > Isaac (Gerald) Herrin
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > On Tuesday, December 30, 2003, at 09:45 AM, Olga wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > Therefore, I propose a change of topic:
      > > > > > If you were stuck on a desert island, besides the Gospel, of
      > > > course,
      > > > > > which Orthodox books would you want to have with you? The
      > ones
      > > > that
      > > > > > you find particularly close to your heart, the most
      > inspiring, the
      > > > > > most enlightening, the most moving!
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Gerald Herrin
      > > > > geraldherrin@e...
    • Fr. Gregory Williams
      There s an old joke which says that the most famous inventor in the Soviet Union was a fellow named Reguspatoff.
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 5, 2004
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        There's an old joke which says that the most famous inventor in the Soviet
        Union was a fellow named Reguspatoff.
      • Gerald Herrin
        Blasphemy is a very serious charge against any artist or movie. I don t think the film Andrei Rublev was an attempt to prove anything, but if it were such,
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 5, 2004
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          Blasphemy is a very serious charge against any artist or movie. I don't
          think the film "Andrei Rublev" was an attempt to "prove" anything, but
          if it were such, then perhaps we should see the main character of the
          movie as being not Rublev (who, after all, historically we know almost
          nothing about) but rather the character Boriska who makes the bell for
          the Grand Duke.) Like the balloonist who first flies, then falls to his
          death, Boriska reaches out to create, dominating others by sheer drive
          of artistic exuberance. The film is not a biography of the saint. It is
          also not an "historical" film except in the sense that Tarkovsky wanted
          authenticity in set design, clothing (but he wanted very much for it
          not to be a "museum" piece). Tarkovsky did not want to create a movie
          to "prove" or "demonstrate" anything. He wanted a film to show life.
          Tarkovsky believed that without faith, no artist could create anything
          of worth. He believed that almost all the "entertainments" done in
          Hollywood were deeply wrong, distorted. The movie Rublev is a movie
          about the artist who attempts to create, who suffers, who struggles.
          Rublev is tempted, sins, repents, and it is only after repenting
          through suffering that he becomes the man who could draw the icon of
          the Holy Trinity. "For Tarkovsky Roublev is the first true Russian
          artist and his "Trinity" the first original Russian work of art, born
          of the hopes, struggles, and suffering of the times." page 89, The
          Films of Andrei Tarkovsky:A Visual Fugue" by Vida Johnson and Graham
          Petrie, Indiana University Press, 1994.
          If I believed that the movie was truly blasphemous, I would never watch
          it, nor would I ever encourage others to do so.
          Forgive me if I offend in any way for I do not intend to do so.

          Isaac (Gerald) Herrin








          On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 03:18 AM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          wrote:

          > I thought it (the film about "Rubliev") was a blasphemy, and an
          > attempt to prove the triumph of "dvoe-veria" (mixture of pagan and
          > Christian faith) over Orthodoxy in Russia!
          > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          >
          > PS: It is though, a historical FACT that it was a Russian who first
          > flew in the air in a Lighter that air/hot air balloon!!!
          Gerald Herrin
          geraldherrin@...
        • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          I also meant no offence to anyone personally. So please forgive me is my choice of words was to strong. A Joyous and Grace filled Nativity feast to all!
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 5, 2004
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            I also meant no offence to anyone personally. So please forgive me is
            my choice of words was to strong. A Joyous and Grace filled Nativity
            feast to all!


            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Herrin
            <geraldherrin@e...> wrote:
            > Blasphemy is a very serious charge against any artist or movie. I don't
            > think the film "Andrei Rublev" was an attempt to "prove" anything, but
            > if it were such, then perhaps we should see the main character of the
            > movie as being not Rublev (who, after all, historically we know almost
            > nothing about) but rather the character Boriska who makes the bell for
            > the Grand Duke.) Like the balloonist who first flies, then falls to his
            > death, Boriska reaches out to create, dominating others by sheer drive
            > of artistic exuberance. The film is not a biography of the saint. It is
            > also not an "historical" film except in the sense that Tarkovsky wanted
            > authenticity in set design, clothing (but he wanted very much for it
            > not to be a "museum" piece). Tarkovsky did not want to create a movie
            > to "prove" or "demonstrate" anything. He wanted a film to show life.
            > Tarkovsky believed that without faith, no artist could create anything
            > of worth. He believed that almost all the "entertainments" done in
            > Hollywood were deeply wrong, distorted. The movie Rublev is a movie
            > about the artist who attempts to create, who suffers, who struggles.
            > Rublev is tempted, sins, repents, and it is only after repenting
            > through suffering that he becomes the man who could draw the icon of
            > the Holy Trinity. "For Tarkovsky Roublev is the first true Russian
            > artist and his "Trinity" the first original Russian work of art, born
            > of the hopes, struggles, and suffering of the times." page 89, The
            > Films of Andrei Tarkovsky:A Visual Fugue" by Vida Johnson and Graham
            > Petrie, Indiana University Press, 1994.
            > If I believed that the movie was truly blasphemous, I would never watch
            > it, nor would I ever encourage others to do so.
            > Forgive me if I offend in any way for I do not intend to do so.
            >
            > Isaac (Gerald) Herrin
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 03:18 AM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            > wrote:
            >
            > > I thought it (the film about "Rubliev") was a blasphemy, and an
            > > attempt to prove the triumph of "dvoe-veria" (mixture of pagan and
            > > Christian faith) over Orthodoxy in Russia!
            > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            > >
            > > PS: It is though, a historical FACT that it was a Russian who first
            > > flew in the air in a Lighter that air/hot air balloon!!!
            > Gerald Herrin
            > geraldherrin@e...
          • podnoss
            So much has been conveniently forgotten about the events from February 17 to July 18. On February 26, 1917 there were about 300 000 people on the streets of
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 5, 2004
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              So much has been conveniently forgotten about the events from
              February '17 to July '18.

              On February 26, 1917 there were about 300 000 people on the streets
              of Petrograd calling for the downfall of the Tsar. Repression was
              impossible. All the Tsar's senior generals had told him this and - on
              the advice of M. Rodzianko the Speaker of the Duma - convinced him to
              abdicate.

              The 250 000 soldiers of the Petrograd garrison had gone over to the
              people's side on February 27, forcing the police in the capital to
              flee. People called for the Tsar and the Empress to be shot. "And
              they shouldn't spare the daughters" was a popular refrain. No armed
              force could have put down what became a national uprising against the
              monarchy. Perhaps someone such as yourself could've stepped forward
              and warned the people that it was a sin to rise up against the Tsar.
              If they failed to listen, what then?





              -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
              <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
              >
              > They condemn the passivity, sadness, indecision,
              complacency, "états
              > d'âme", in which those sentimental artists and writers dwelled. The
              > country was drifting to the catastrophe and needed resolute action
              > and faith while facing determined communist terrorists
            • Igumeniya Iulianiya
              Subject: Nativity Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 09:45:08 -0500 A Nativity Reflection In 1994, two Americans answered an invitation from the Russian Department of
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 5, 2004
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                Subject: Nativity Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 09:45:08 -0500 A Nativity Reflection

                In 1994, two Americans answered an invitation from the Russian Department of Education to teach morals and ethics (based on biblical principles) in the public schools. They were invited to teach at prisons, businesses, the fire and police departments, and a large orphanage. About 100 boys and girls who had been abandoned, abused, and left in the care of a government-run program were in the orphanage. They relate the following story in their own words. It was nearing the holiday season, 1994, time for our orphans to hear, for the first time, the traditional story of Christmas. We told them about Mary and Joseph arriving in Bethlehem. Finding no room in the inn, the couple went to a stable, where the baby Jesus was born and placed in a manger. Throughout the story, the children and orphanage staff sat in amazement as they listened. Some sat on the edges of their stools, trying to grasp every word. Completing the story, we gave the children three small pieces of cardboard to make a
                crude manger. Each child was given a small paper square, cut from yellow napkins I had brought with me. No colored paper was available in the city. Following instructions, the children tore the paper and carefully laid strips in the manger for straw. Small squares of flannel, cut from a worn-out nightgown an American lady was throwing away as she left Russia, were used for the baby's blanket. A doll-like baby was cut from tan felt we had brought from the United States. The orphans were busy assembling their manger as I walked among them to see if they needed any help. All went well until I got to one table where little Misha sat. He looked to be about 6 years old and had finished his project. As I looked at the little boy's manger, was startled to see not one, but two babies in the manger. Quickly, I called for the translator to ask the lad why there were two babies in the manger. Crossing his arms in front of him and looking at this completed manger scene, the child began to repeat
                the story very seriously. For such a young boy, who had only heard the Christmas story once, he related the happenings accurately - until he came to the part where Mary put the baby Jesus in the manger. Then Misha started to ad-lib. He made up his own ending to the story as he said, "And when Maria laid the baby in the manger, Jesus looked at me and asked me if I had a place to stay. I told him I have no mamma and I have no papa, so I don't have any place to stay. Then Jesus told me I could stay with him. But I told him I couldn't, because I didn't have a gift to give him like everybody else did. But I wanted to stay with Jesus so much, so I thought about what I had that maybe I could use for a gift. I thought maybe if I kept him warm, that would be a good gift. "So I asked Jesus, 'If I keep you warm, will that be a good enough gift?' And Jesus told me, 'If you keep me warm, that will be the best gift anybody ever gave me.' "So I got into the manger, and then Jesus looked at me and
                He told me I could stay with him - for always." As little Misha finished his story, his eyes brimmed full of tears that splashed down his cheeks. Putting his hand over his face, his head dropped to the table, and his shoulders shook as he sobbed and sobbed. The little orphan had found someone who would never abandon nor abuse him, someone who would stay with him, as he said - FOR ALWAYS. Like Misha, I have learned that it's not what you have in your life, but who you have in your life that really counts. "Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus." In Him Who calls us, + Father Archimandrite Gregory


                Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:My understanding was that the first lighter than air flight (Balloon)
                took place in Russia during the reign of Ivan Grosni. My brother
                always claimed that the story in detail may have been a bit distorted
                but that there was a kernel of truth to the main point.

                What is the foundation, if any for such an account?

                I remember that in school (here in the States) when any inventions
                were discussed, no Russian inventors were ever credited properly for
                their contribution to the invention or development of any innovations.

                So I was sure that the Balloon flight was also an oversight as the others.




                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                wrote:
                > Dear Father Stefan, bless.
                >
                > Considering the many hot confrontations that have taken place on this
                > forum, I think it is appropriate to glorify God whenever, as now, we
                > agree with one another in defending the purity of orthodoxy against
                > those who attack it, in this particular case, our fellow Russian, the
                > brilliant Tarkovsky.
                >
                > I think that this is more than just a social discussion about cinema.
                > I do not want to take any undue advantage from agreeing with you
                > about a film, but I am sure that if we were to scrap a little more
                > the surface, we would find much deeper agreement than many would
                > expect between many of us that consider themselves as antagonists of
                > one another. May God help us to dig in that direction.
                >
                > As you, I am proud about the Russian creativity and scientific
                > achievements. From what I found however, the Russian invention of
                > aerostation, which would have taken place, by the way, much later
                > than in Rubliev's time, about 50 years before the Montgolfier
                > experiment, might be a forgery, as seen below. The Russian inventor
                > might have been a German in fact. If it is so (I do not claim to have
                > a final opinion on the subject), let us disseminate the news, as
                > nothing can serve Russia better than the truth. She is sufficiently
                > glorious on her own. In aeronautics, she might have to content
                > herself with her sputniks, Tsiolkovsky, Sikorsky, Joukovsky, and a
                > few others.
                >
                > http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/Features/1stStrtgcBmbrSq.html
                >
                > Unfortunately, in sciences as in spirituality, Russians have reached
                > historical records both in lying and in proclaiming the truth. The
                > Lyssenko affair (see below) is about one of the mot shameful deceits
                > by Soviet scientists.
                >
                > It looks as though Russia can be only the best or the worst of all
                > nations. In spite of all, she is our beloved country. Let us pray God
                > that he help her to become only true.
                >
                > In God,
                >
                > Vladimir Kozyreff
                >
                > -----
                >
                > Aerostation
                >
                > In 1956 the book "Documents on the history of aeronautics and
                > aircraft in the USSR " was published. In the chapter
                > entitled "Aeronautics and aircraft in Russia until 1907", the story
                > of Kryakutnoy, who allegedly first-ever travelled in a balloon is
                > reported. This is given as the proof that the Russian were first in
                > the field of aeronautics.
                >
                > Incidentally, the process that created this nonexistent character is
                > well-known to the experts. As D.S. Likhachov reports, in the
                > chronicle's text "in 1731 in Ryazan under voyevod "podyachy"
                > nyeretkhtiets Kryakutnoy Furvin made a big balloon, inflated it with
                > a nasty and smelly smoke", it could be established by photographic
                > researches, that the word "nierekhtiets" is written on top of the
                > word "niemiets" (German), and the surname "Kryakutnoy" covers the
                > word "kreschenoy", as if to the surname "Furvin" a correction was
                > made to the initial "Furtsel". Despite the protests by experts,
                > Kryakutnoy continued his triumphal procession in the pages of the
                > scientific and popular scientific literature until the last decade of
                > the XXst century.
                >
                > Historical stories and mythology of the XXst century, Yury Shatin,
                > The Novosibirsk state pedagogical university, Criticism and
                > semiotics. May, 2002. pp. 100-108
                >
                > http://www.nsu.ru/education/virtual/cs5shatin.htm
                >
                > See also:
                >
                > http://www.utro.ru/column/2001082303201331381.shtml
                >
                > -----
                >
                > Scientific forgery in general, and Lyssenko specifically
                >
                > However, ideologies are not in themselves passive inert forms of
                > consciousness but are part and parcel of practical and symbolic
                > activities ; they federate interests, galvanize passions, permeate
                > institutions and sometimes become official through State action.
                > Consequently, their reaction to scientific news is often biased and
                > is aimed at either confirming or refuting it. In extreme cases, as
                > history has often shown, ideologies turn some items of information
                > into dogma and declare war on others.
                >
                >
                > The Lyssenko case is still the classic example of this. As, in the
                > USSR of the middle of this century, " Mendel-Morgan genetics" were
                > considered incompatible with Party and State philosophy, they were
                > totally censored for nearly twenty years, with disastrous
                > consequences in many fields....
                >
                > Ideologies thus emerge as very powerful selective distorting factors
                > in the transmission of scientific news, the more so as they bias the
                > judgement, not only of the public but also of journalists, and even
                > in large measure that of many scientists...
                >
                > http://www.ccne-ethique.fr/english/avis/a_045p02.htm
                >
                >
                > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                > wrote:
                > > I thought it (the film about "Rubliev") was a blasphemy, and an
                > > attempt to prove the triumph of "dvoe-veria" (mixture of pagan and
                > > Christian faith) over Orthodoxy in Russia!
                > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                > >
                > > PS: It is though, a historical FACT that it was a Russian who first
                > > flew in the air in a Lighter that air/hot air balloon!!!
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                > > wrote:
                > > > Dear List,
                > > >
                > > > Speaking about Tarkovsky's Rubliov, I am not sure the film is
                > really
                > > > orthodox. It is certainly not historical. If I remember, the
                > script
                > > > goes that monk Andre� Roublev is chosen to paint frescos in a
                > > > cathedral, but he is disturbed by the subject: he cannot admit
                > that
                > > > God takes revenge on his creatures at the dread Judgement. Moved
                > by
                > > > the faith of original Christianity, he believes in a God of love
                > and
                > > > of pardon, and this condemns him to loneliness and doubt.
                > > >
                > > > I do not think that Tarkovsky had a good knowledge of what
                > monachism
                > > > and orthodoxy are about. Who told him that the Church did teach
                > the
                > > > vision against which his Rubliov struggled? Who told him that
                > > > believing in a God of love threw him, an orthodox monk, into
                > > > loneliness? The MP?
                > > >
                > > > In fact, this film was not totally disagreeable to the regime, as
                > it
                > > > gave a negative idea of the Church and presented Rubliev as a
                > kind of
                > > > protestant in rebellion against the Church and composing his
                > personal
                > > > orthodoxy. Considering that Rubliov painted among the most
                > beautiful
                > > > and most orthodox icons and frescoes, the film, whatever the
                > talent
                > > > of the author is almost a sacrilege. Please, Messrs. the non-
                > orthodox
                > > > film directors, keep your hands off orthodoxy before you convert.
                > > >
                > > > As you know, the regime was an expert in managing "dissidence" to
                > its
                > > > benefit (Vysotsky, Akhudjava, etc.)
                > > >
                > > > I confess that I saw the film a very long time ago, but the scent
                > of
                > > > it was very little orthodox and very much soviet in my memory.
                > > >
                > > > In God,
                > > >
                > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Herrin
                > > > wrote:
                > > > > I am pleased to answer this, or at least give my opinion:
                > > > >
                > > > > 1) The Northern Thebaid: Monastic Saints of the Russian North
                > > > > 2) Early Fathers from the Philokalia, translated by E.
                > Kadloubovsky
                > > > and
                > > > > G.E,H. Palmer
                > > > > 3) Any of the biographies of the Optina Elders
                > > > > 4) Dostoevsky.... Crime and Punishment, The Demons, and the
                > > > Brothers
                > > > > Karamazov
                > > > > 5) Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (not Orthodox,
                > of
                > > > > course, but still one of the finest histories of the later
                > Roman
                > > > Empire
                > > > > in English)
                > > > > 6) Saint Augustine's Confessions
                > > > > 7) and could I watch Andrei Tarkovsky's Andrei Rublev and
                > Fellini's
                > > > La
                > > > > Strada on this desert island?
                > > > >
                > > > > My suggestions for myself ....
                > > > >
                > > > > Isaac (Gerald) Herrin
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > On Tuesday, December 30, 2003, at 09:45 AM, Olga wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > Therefore, I propose a change of topic:
                > > > > > If you were stuck on a desert island, besides the Gospel, of
                > > > course,
                > > > > > which Orthodox books would you want to have with you? The
                > ones
                > > > that
                > > > > > you find particularly close to your heart, the most
                > inspiring, the
                > > > > > most enlightening, the most moving!
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Gerald Herrin
                > > > > geraldherrin@e...


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              • Fr Michael Protopopov
                Every blessing to you and your family Father, for the Nativity and Theophany. Fr Michael ... From: Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko To:
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 5, 2004
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                  Every blessing to you and your family Father, for the Nativity and
                  Theophany.
                  Fr Michael

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 9:17 AM
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: A change of topic, please!


                  I also meant no offence to anyone personally. So please forgive me is
                  my choice of words was to strong. A Joyous and Grace filled Nativity
                  feast to all!


                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Herrin
                  <geraldherrin@e...> wrote:
                  > Blasphemy is a very serious charge against any artist or movie. I don't
                  > think the film "Andrei Rublev" was an attempt to "prove" anything, but
                  > if it were such, then perhaps we should see the main character of the
                  > movie as being not Rublev (who, after all, historically we know almost
                  > nothing about) but rather the character Boriska who makes the bell for
                  > the Grand Duke.) Like the balloonist who first flies, then falls to his
                  > death, Boriska reaches out to create, dominating others by sheer drive
                  > of artistic exuberance. The film is not a biography of the saint. It is
                  > also not an "historical" film except in the sense that Tarkovsky wanted
                  > authenticity in set design, clothing (but he wanted very much for it
                  > not to be a "museum" piece). Tarkovsky did not want to create a movie
                  > to "prove" or "demonstrate" anything. He wanted a film to show life.
                  > Tarkovsky believed that without faith, no artist could create anything
                  > of worth. He believed that almost all the "entertainments" done in
                  > Hollywood were deeply wrong, distorted. The movie Rublev is a movie
                  > about the artist who attempts to create, who suffers, who struggles.
                  > Rublev is tempted, sins, repents, and it is only after repenting
                  > through suffering that he becomes the man who could draw the icon of
                  > the Holy Trinity. "For Tarkovsky Roublev is the first true Russian
                  > artist and his "Trinity" the first original Russian work of art, born
                  > of the hopes, struggles, and suffering of the times." page 89, The
                  > Films of Andrei Tarkovsky:A Visual Fugue" by Vida Johnson and Graham
                  > Petrie, Indiana University Press, 1994.
                  > If I believed that the movie was truly blasphemous, I would never watch
                  > it, nor would I ever encourage others to do so.
                  > Forgive me if I offend in any way for I do not intend to do so.
                  >
                  > Isaac (Gerald) Herrin
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 03:18 AM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > I thought it (the film about "Rubliev") was a blasphemy, and an
                  > > attempt to prove the triumph of "dvoe-veria" (mixture of pagan and
                  > > Christian faith) over Orthodoxy in Russia!
                  > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  > >
                  > > PS: It is though, a historical FACT that it was a Russian who first
                  > > flew in the air in a Lighter that air/hot air balloon!!!
                  > Gerald Herrin
                  > geraldherrin@e...



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                • vkozyreff
                  Dear Podnoss , This was the result of a long evolution and unwarranted tolerance that had lasted for a long time. The White army however took up arms and
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 6, 2004
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                    Dear "Podnoss",

                    This was the result of a long evolution and unwarranted tolerance
                    that had lasted for a long time.

                    The White army however took up arms and started a war, 1 against 25.
                    Many gave their life, they almost won, were finally defeated, and
                    saved Russia's honour. They acquired a certain right to speak about
                    those who had let it happen.

                    Indeed, the situation in the streets was terrible. For a lively,
                    American-sided and first account of what really happened, see below.

                    In God,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff

                    …Senator Nelson: can you tell to us how it has taken place?

                    Simons: It is a long history. To represent how it happened, hours are
                    needed.

                    …Senator Nelson: Please depict this for us.

                    Simons: I can tell only that in the air the most devil terrorism
                    ripened. <...> I dressed as a Russian worker, put on a Russian shirt
                    which hangs down almost up to knees, put on a felt hat with wide
                    lowered sides and nickel spectacles so my sister said that I looked
                    as a Bolshevik.

                    I went to the street, among these people and listened to their
                    conversations. I went to the barracks. I wanted to collect as much
                    data as possible, for I was going to write a book. I felt that
                    history was being written, I trusted Russia, I loved Russia, but I
                    did not trust at all this ongoing business, and I wanted to look,
                    what it would do to Russia in which I was going to live.

                    I tried to collect first-hand information among common people. These
                    propagandists appeared and spoke both about Lenin and Trotsky, and in
                    the crowd, people would say: "It is true, completely true. "And then,
                    after those propagandists had left in a lorry, there came another
                    lorry with other propagandists…

                    United States Congress/Senate. Judiciary Committee. «The Bolshevik
                    propaganda. Hearings before a subcommittee of the committee on the
                    judiciary. United States Senate. Sixty-fifth congress. Third session
                    and thereafter pursuant to S. Res. 439 and 469. February 11, 1919 to
                    March 10, 1919», Washington, Government Printing Office, 1919; U.S.
                    Supt. of Docs. No. Y 4.J 89/2:B 63/40

                    http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/overman.htm



                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "podnoss" <podnoss@y...> wrote:
                    > So much has been conveniently forgotten about the events from
                    > February '17 to July '18.
                    >
                    > On February 26, 1917 there were about 300 000 people on the streets
                    > of Petrograd calling for the downfall of the Tsar. Repression was
                    > impossible. All the Tsar's senior generals had told him this and -
                    on
                    > the advice of M. Rodzianko the Speaker of the Duma - convinced him
                    to
                    > abdicate.
                    >
                    > The 250 000 soldiers of the Petrograd garrison had gone over to the
                    > people's side on February 27, forcing the police in the capital to
                    > flee. People called for the Tsar and the Empress to be shot. "And
                    > they shouldn't spare the daughters" was a popular refrain. No armed
                    > force could have put down what became a national uprising against
                    the
                    > monarchy. Perhaps someone such as yourself could've stepped forward
                    > and warned the people that it was a sin to rise up against the Tsar.
                    > If they failed to listen, what then?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                    > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > They condemn the passivity, sadness, indecision,
                    > complacency, "états
                    > > d'âme", in which those sentimental artists and writers dwelled.
                    The
                    > > country was drifting to the catastrophe and needed resolute
                    action
                    > > and faith while facing determined communist terrorists
                  • michael nikitin
                    Those that called for the Czar to be shot were Communists who were enciting the people. Because the war caused much hardship on the people some did want a
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 6, 2004
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                      Those that called for the Czar to be shot were
                      Communists who were enciting the people.

                      Because the war caused much hardship on the people
                      some did want a change, but the change was mostly
                      from the upper class(Kerensky, etc..) and the different
                      political powers such as the Communists, Mensheviks, etc...
                      who wanted power.

                      Most of the common people loved the Czar. The Serfs
                      received their freedom and were glad for it. The landowners
                      didn't particularly like the Czar.

                      Much of the demonstrations were prooganda in nature and
                      were purposely done in view of the Czars travelling route.
                      This was done to discourage the Czar and facilitate his
                      abdication which the likes of M. Rodzianko and Co. did well.

                      Unfortunately the Communists, with the help of bankers from
                      New York and England, had a different agenda. The rest is history.

                      Michael N.


                      podnoss <podnoss@...> wrote:
                      So much has been conveniently forgotten about the events from
                      February '17 to July '18.

                      On February 26, 1917 there were about 300 000 people on the streets
                      of Petrograd calling for the downfall of the Tsar. Repression was
                      impossible. All the Tsar's senior generals had told him this and - on
                      the advice of M. Rodzianko the Speaker of the Duma - convinced him to
                      abdicate.

                      The 250 000 soldiers of the Petrograd garrison had gone over to the
                      people's side on February 27, forcing the police in the capital to
                      flee. People called for the Tsar and the Empress to be shot. "And
                      they shouldn't spare the daughters" was a popular refrain. No armed
                      force could have put down what became a national uprising against the
                      monarchy. Perhaps someone such as yourself could've stepped forward
                      and warned the people that it was a sin to rise up against the Tsar.
                      If they failed to listen, what then?





                      -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                      <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                      >
                      > They condemn the passivity, sadness, indecision,
                      complacency, "�tats
                      > d'�me", in which those sentimental artists and writers dwelled. The
                      > country was drifting to the catastrophe and needed resolute action
                      > and faith while facing determined communist terrorists



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                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear List, Regarding Chekhov s society, The ideologies promoted by the Russian intelligentsia tended to be socially radical, democratic, and cosmopolitan,
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 9, 2004
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                        Dear List,

                        Regarding Chekhov's society, "The ideologies promoted by the Russian
                        intelligentsia tended to be socially radical, democratic, and
                        cosmopolitan, although they might have a concealed elitist,
                        authoritarian, or nationalist streak". (Presniakov)

                        "These theories, derived from the advanced thought of contemporary
                        Europe, often bore little relevance to the immediate problems
                        confronting Russian society, but this seldom detracted from their
                        appeal. Intellectuals were acknowledged to be their mentors by nearly
                        all educated Russians, that is, by everyone not closely identified
                        with the autocratic regime…Russian socialism was therefore a product
                        of the intelligentsia" (Pares, Bernard. A History of Russia. New
                        York: Alfred A. Knopf Inc, 1926, third edition revised. Pares)

                        Before the First World War the intelligentsia's dominance began to
                        wane, and they were discriminated against in the early days of the
                        revolution and during the Stalinist period. However, during later
                        communism, they were worshipped…

                        http://econc10.bu.edu/economic_systems/NatIdentity/FSU/Russia/Westerni
                        zation.html

                        In support of what Michael writes, I would like to remind that
                        the "Russian Revolution" was not really Russian and was a war
                        declared on the Russian people. As many revolutions, it depended on
                        an external (diaspora) financing.

                        Below, see a reference about the causes of revolutions/civil wars in
                        general, and another on Russian revolution specifically.

                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff

                        -----
                        1. Greed and grievances

                        ...Rebellion may be explained by atypically severe grievances, such
                        as high inequality, a lack of political rights, or ethnic and
                        religious divisions in society. Alternatively, it might be explained
                        by atypical opportunities for building a rebel organization.
                        Opportunity may be determined by access to finance, such as the scope
                        for extortion of natural resources, and for donations from a diaspora
                        population.

                        Opportunity may also depend upon factors such as geography: mountains
                        and forests may be needed to incubate rebellion. We test these
                        explanations and find that opportunity provides considerably more
                        explanatory power than grievance. Economic viability appears to be
                        the predominant systematic explanation of rebellion.

                        The results are robust to correction for outliers, alternative
                        variable definition, and variations in estimation method. Greed and
                        Grievance in Civil War by Paul Collier and Anke Hoeffler

                        http://www.worldbank.org/research/conflict/papers/greedandgrievance.ht
                        m

                        -----
                        2. The Russian revolution in particular did not originate from the
                        Russian people

                        "The biggest fallacy concerning the Bolshevik Revolution is that it
                        originated from the people ... from the poor huddled masses. In
                        reality, it was financed by: a) England's Lord Alfred Milner, b) Wall
                        Street bankers such as J. P. Morgan & company and the Rockefeller
                        Family c) Europe's Rothschild dynasty, and d) German bankers such as
                        Max Warburg, whose brother Paul was the key man in setting up
                        America's Federal Reserve System.

                        ...Money for the Bolshevik Revolution came from superrich Western
                        financiers, some of whom were Americans! In essence, then, the very
                        core of Communism was a partnership between monopoly-oriented
                        Capitalists and the international Socialist movement".

                        http://pub64.ezboard.com/frespectforthetencommandmentsfrm9.showMessage
                        ?topicID=1.topic



                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                        <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                        > Those that called for the Czar to be shot were
                        > Communists who were enciting the people.
                        >
                        > Because the war caused much hardship on the people
                        > some did want a change, but the change was mostly
                        > from the upper class(Kerensky, etc..) and the different
                        > political powers such as the Communists, Mensheviks, etc...
                        > who wanted power.
                        >
                        > Most of the common people loved the Czar. The Serfs
                        > received their freedom and were glad for it. The landowners
                        > didn't particularly like the Czar.
                        >
                        > Much of the demonstrations were prooganda in nature and
                        > were purposely done in view of the Czars travelling route.
                        > This was done to discourage the Czar and facilitate his
                        > abdication which the likes of M. Rodzianko and Co. did well.
                        >
                        > Unfortunately the Communists, with the help of bankers from
                        > New York and England, had a different agenda. The rest is history.
                        >
                        > Michael N.
                        >
                        >
                        > podnoss <podnoss@y...> wrote:
                        > So much has been conveniently forgotten about the events from
                        > February '17 to July '18.
                        >
                        > On February 26, 1917 there were about 300 000 people on the streets
                        > of Petrograd calling for the downfall of the Tsar. Repression was
                        > impossible. All the Tsar's senior generals had told him this and -
                        on
                        > the advice of M. Rodzianko the Speaker of the Duma - convinced him
                        to
                        > abdicate.
                        >
                        > The 250 000 soldiers of the Petrograd garrison had gone over to the
                        > people's side on February 27, forcing the police in the capital to
                        > flee. People called for the Tsar and the Empress to be shot. "And
                        > they shouldn't spare the daughters" was a popular refrain. No armed
                        > force could have put down what became a national uprising against
                        the
                        > monarchy. Perhaps someone such as yourself could've stepped forward
                        > and warned the people that it was a sin to rise up against the Tsar.
                        > If they failed to listen, what then?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                        > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > They condemn the passivity, sadness, indecision,
                        > complacency, "états
                        > > d'âme", in which those sentimental artists and writers dwelled.
                        The
                        > > country was drifting to the catastrophe and needed resolute
                        action
                        > > and faith while facing determined communist terrorists
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
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                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Olga
                        hello all! Way back in December, I asked for input on favourite Orthodox desert island reading, and I would like to say a huge thank you to Father Victor for
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 28, 2004
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                          hello all!

                          Way back in December, I asked for input on favourite Orthodox "desert
                          island" reading, and I would like to say a huge thank you to Father
                          Victor for recommending the book "Father Arseny, 1893-1973: Priest,
                          Prisoner, Spiritual Father" and for those of you who are interested,
                          the publisher is St. Vladimir's Seminary Press.

                          It took me awhile to get around to finding it, ordering it, and then
                          reading it, but all I can say is 'wow!'. I was sorry when I got to
                          the end of the book. So bittersweet, so moving, so inspirational!

                          It is not my intention to start any arguments here!! But my knowledge
                          of the Soviet church from the 30's to the 70's is obviously very
                          limited, which I realized after reading this book. Some of the
                          believers described in this book were persecuted, they preferred not
                          to attend the "open" church, and I don't think they were part of the
                          catacomb church, which raises a question for me - which church might
                          have they been a part of? This is just for my own personal
                          information.

                          And again no arguments please!!!

                          In Christ,
                          Olga
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