Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The free voice of the Russian church

Expand Messages
  • michael nikitin
    Let s not read things into the epistle that aren t there, just as Patriarch Alexey s forgiveness of past mistakes ,but no mention of his compromising the
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 31, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Let's not read things into the epistle that aren't there, just
      as Patriarch Alexey's forgiveness of past mistakes ,but no
      mention of his compromising the Russian Church with the godless regime.

      Why did the Church give us canons if they are meaningless?

      The MP contends Metr.Sergius saved the Russian Church by
      colloborating with the godless regime.This is blasphemy.
      The decision of the Synod of 1971 stands until the MP repents
      and is recognized by ROCOR. Ideally this should entail the Patriarch coming
      to a ROCOR Church and asking forgiveness of what
      Metr.Sergius did. All of those returning to the true Church(ROCOR) from the
      MP repented and were admitted by way of economia.
      No baptism,marriage, etc.. is required if the outward form was correct.

      Economia should not be mistaken for policy.

      Some say we should trust the bishops in whatever they do, but they were proved wrong.
      Just as in the days of St.Maximos the Confessor.
      They were proved to be uniting without the Holy Spirit as the faithful of ROCOR
      showed.

      Michael N.



      "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
      Dear Michael,

      Let me repeat again the year now is 2003 and the Patriarch is Alexius II.

      "...which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy..." Is this your interpretation or is this actually stated in the decision of the 1971. Ever since 1971 there has been no reordination, reconcecratin, rebaptism, rechrismation, remarriage for those accepted into the Church Abroad from the Moscow Patriarchate. How do you explain that? Let us suppose that patriarchal elections are in fact invalid, does that really mean that the Church evaporates with all its mysteries? What a strange idea.

      v



      The Synod has never rescinded the decision of 1971. It confirms the 3rd canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council which states everything that Patriarch Pimen did had no effect,
      which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy.

      Many cry that we have to follow Ukaze #362. If we have to abide by Ukaze # 362 then ROCOR has to be one with MP, no autonomy or autocephaly. We can't have one without the other, otherwise we're not abiding by the Ukaze of # 362.

      Michael N.



      "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:

      "Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too."




      ---------------------------------
      Do you Yahoo!?
      New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Larry, Russia has given to God more martyrs than all nations taken together ever did. The question is: how do we tell true orthodoxy from false orthodoxy,
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 31, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Larry,

        Russia has given to God more martyrs than all nations taken together
        ever did.

        The question is: how do we tell true orthodoxy from false orthodoxy,
        knowing that false orthodoxy is seducing? Shall we share orthodoxy or
        false orthodoxy?

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
        <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
        > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > Dear Vladirir,
        > I realise that I don't know about all of the happenings during the
        Soviet period, but I do know that many Christians perservered. What I
        am saying is that what has happened, has happened and we can't do a
        whole lot about it. I remember reading in school a book called " I
        found God in Soviet Russia" (but I cannot remember the author's
        name). This was before I had EVER heard of the Orthodox Church. (My
        parents were not church goers). I was so impressed by the book, that
        I never forgot it. I have also read every book by Alexander
        Solzenitsan that has been translated into English, So I'm well aware
        of the overwelming suffering by Christians in the Soviet Union.
        However, for me I don't see what can be accomplished by turning our
        backs on the MP and most of the other jurisdictions in the US. I'm
        sorry, but I am interested in a church that tries to share its
        Orthodoxy.
        > Love in Christ,
        > Sub-deacon Lawrence
        >
        > vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
        > Dear Larry,
        >
        > You are full of good will, and I respect this, but you are in error
        > as well.
        >
        > Implying that the collaboration with the Bolsheviks is what saved
        the
        > Church is heretical. It is the essence of sergianism, which has
        been
        > denounced by the ROCOR tradition. If something has been saved by
        > compromising it cannot be the Church, by definition. The Church is
        > not to be saved but she saves us. It is the martyrs who saved the
        > faith, not the compromises.
        >
        > When Irina mentions those crimes, it does not mean that she does
        not
        > forgive. She just says that with or without our pardon, the MP is a
        > criminal organisation. The question is of God's pardon here, not of
        > ours. God's pardon (at the difference of ours, which must be
        > automatic and unconditional), is conditional to repentance and
        > metanoya. A criminal cannot be a bishop before he repented, even if
        > we pardon him. Anaxios.
        >
        > Some say now that they have no proof of what happened in Russia. If
        > they do not know, than they do not know that Columbus discovered
        > America, and they believe Met. Serghii when he said that the Church
        > was not persecuted in Russia. This disserves no reply.
        >
        > If you dare compare the suffering in the times of the Russian
        empire
        > and under the Soviet Union, you do not know what you are talking
        > about. In his seven years of power, Lenin assassinated 10 millions
        of
        > people. In the eight first months of the Bolshevik regime, 10 times
        > more people were executed in Russia than during the eighty years of
        > terrorism that preceded the revolution. Just a matter of order of
        > magnitude.
        >
        > In God,
        >
        > Vladimir Kozyreff
        >
        >
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
        > <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
        > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > > Dear Irina and Vitchislav,
        > > Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just
        > dissapeared, like the Albanian Church did? Then maybe their would
        > have been NO Church in Russia. I know that if it was "your"
        relative
        > that was killed, that you would have a difficult time forgiving,
        but
        > we MUST, because we pray EVERYDAY "For give us our debts ( sins) as
        > we forgive our debtors (those who sin AGAINST US). The key word is
        AS
        > (the same way). What is past is past and we can't change it.
        Besides
        > I don't think that living undar the Tsar was a picnic for
        everybody.
        > > Love in Christ,
        > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        > >
        > > goossir <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
        > > Dear Vitchislav,
        > >
        > > You write:
        > > „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?
        > >
        > > It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
        > > slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the
        > protesting
        > > letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during
        the
        > > Nyack Seminar?
        > > And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
        > > preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
        > > >
        > > „« VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
        > > brothers now?
        > >
        > > Of course not ¡V why to you think I keep on writing?
        > >
        > > „« VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
        > > salvation in the Church.
        > >
        > > I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why
        I
        > > must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.
        > >
        > > VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my
        > eyes
        > > and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
        > > murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes.
        All
        > I
        > > hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it
        > as
        > > hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.
        > >
        > > No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
        > > well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you
        should
        > > know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
        > > did compromise with the killers ¡V enough documentation was
        > > published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
        > > ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours
        > prove
        > > to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
        > > persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
        > > declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
        > > sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
        > > many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets
        and
        > > bishops.
        > >
        > > „« VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
        > > Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
        > > cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
        > > the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
        > > read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that.
        > Had
        > > you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.
        > >
        > > I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is
        > taking
        > > and I cry.
        > >
        > > „« VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth
        > while
        > > the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities.
        > That
        > > is why the communion was broken.
        > >
        > > The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
        > > The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
        > > Church) was rejected by our Synod.
        > > There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
        > > Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.
        > >
        > > „« VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation
        > in
        > > Russia has changed.
        > >
        > > Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
        > > renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
        > > than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there:
        the
        > > mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and
        the
        > > same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living
        > in
        > > luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
        > > still need more evidence?
        > >
        > > „« VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is
        retired
        > as
        > > a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
        > > know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that
        he
        > > was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is
        because
        > > of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
        > > canonical church.
        > >
        > > Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal
        the
        > > schism between us.
        > >
        > > We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
        > > psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
        > > taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person
        to
        > > live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged
        > 93,
        > > is not an act of love ¡V it is the least that I can say.
        > >
        > > I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
        > > Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
        > > spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
        > > problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
        > > when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
        > > faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to
        his
        > > ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his
        > full
        > > spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
        > > with whom and what is the situation.
        > > When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take
        he
        > > took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox
        > Church
        > > Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church ¡V this is
        sheer
        > > nonsense!
        > >
        > > It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
        > > created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
        > > uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this
        > world.
        > > >
        > > I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
        > > through God¡¦s will that something can change or be saved.
        > > So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered
        between
        > > wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass.
        Amen
        > >
        > > Irina Pahlen
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-synod/
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-synod/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.