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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The free voice of the Russian church

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  • V. Boitchenko
    Dear Irina, It is the same old story over and over again. I do not have time or energy or this. The only reason why I answer is because your letter is
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 28, 2003
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      Dear Irina,

      It is the same old story over and over again. I do not have time or energy or this. The only reason why I answer is because your letter is addressed to me personally.

      >>They close their eyes and ears to clear evidence that the MP has NOT changed.

      What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?

      >>They prefer to swallow the MP's lies and deceit than to listen to the calls of their once brother and
      sisters in Christ.

      We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as brothers now? And we have heard you and others. What seems obvious to you is not that obvious to others.


      >>IP: Sorry, but this looks like sheer hypocrisy. You take refuge in
      >>the: "Who am I to judge?"
      >>When you see someone killed in front of your eyes, what would you
      >>call the killer? Will you say: "I will abstain from any opinion,
      etc ..?"

      I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek salvation in the Church. However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my eyes and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All I hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it as hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.


      >>IP: What about the 1971 Declaration of the Synod regarding the non-
      canonicity of the election of the patriarchs?

      Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.

      >>IP: So what? Catholicism is recognized by many more people and
      they also do not need us to realise their "fullness". We lived for
      about 80 years without the MP. We were free witnesses of the
      truth.

      I did not say just "a lot of people" I said the "rest of the Orthodox" and the "Eastern Patriarchs." It is not just recognition by "many more people". It is the only recognition that has ever been considered valid in the history of Orthodox Christianity. What the heterodox think makes no difference. Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth while the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities. That is why the communion was broken. The reason why things change now is because the situation in Russia has changed.


      >>By the way, why ROCOR bishops did not ask forgiveness for the harsh
      words and treatment they had vis-à-vis Vladika Vitaly, their
      Metropolite, and kiss His hand? Why do they refuse to heal this
      schism?

      Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired as a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-canonical church.

      sincerely,

      viacheslav

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • michael nikitin
      What Fr.John fails to mention is that Vladimir Kozyreff repeats the claims with new evidence. A reply would have to come with new evidence on the contrary
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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        What Fr.John fails to mention is that Vladimir Kozyreff repeats the claims with new evidence. A reply would have to come with new evidence on the contrary which
        Fr.John ,et al., cannot come up with. They want to dispel updated news as old if it doesn't conform to their ideals. The news may be looked at as old.....in other words, nothing has changed.

        Michael N.

        "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
        Irina Pahlen wrote:

        > g> It is the silence opposed to Vladimir Kozyreff's questions that is
        > g> frightening.

        JRS: If by this you mean that nobody has been bothering to answer him
        anymore, the reason for the silence is simple enough:

        We have been over these matters endless times. He, and others like him,
        simply repeat the same claims over and over again.

        *No* replies will satisfy them -- and therefore, more and more of us
        have come to feel that there is no point in spending time writing
        replies.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw



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      • michael nikitin
        The Synod has never rescinded the decision of 1971. It confirms the 3rd canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council which states everything that Patriarch Pimen did
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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          The Synod has never rescinded the decision of 1971. It confirms the 3rd canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council which states everything that Patriarch Pimen did had no effect,
          which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy.

          Many cry that we have to follow Ukaze #362. If we have to abide by Ukaze # 362 then ROCOR has to be one with MP, no autonomy or autocephaly. We can't have one without the other, otherwise we're not abiding by the Ukaze of # 362.

          Michael N.



          "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:

          "Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too."






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        • goossir
          Dear Vitchislav, You write: „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to? It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to slow down the
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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            Dear Vitchislav,

            You write:
            „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?

            It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
            slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the protesting
            letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
            Nyack Seminar?
            And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
            preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
            >
            „« VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
            brothers now?

            Of course not ¡V why to you think I keep on writing?

            „« VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
            salvation in the Church.

            I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
            must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.

            VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my eyes
            and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
            murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All I
            hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it as
            hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.

            No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
            well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
            know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
            did compromise with the killers ¡V enough documentation was
            published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
            ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours prove
            to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
            persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
            declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
            sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
            many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
            bishops.

            „« VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
            Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
            cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
            the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
            read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had
            you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.

            I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is taking
            and I cry.

            „« VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth while
            the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities. That
            is why the communion was broken.

            The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
            The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
            Church) was rejected by our Synod.
            There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
            Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.

            „« VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation in
            Russia has changed.

            Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
            renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
            than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
            mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
            same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living in
            luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
            still need more evidence?

            „« VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired as
            a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
            know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
            was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
            of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
            canonical church.

            Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
            schism between us.

            We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
            psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
            taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
            live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged 93,
            is not an act of love ¡V it is the least that I can say.

            I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
            Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
            spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
            problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
            when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
            faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
            ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his full
            spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
            with whom and what is the situation.
            When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
            took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox Church
            Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church ¡V this is sheer
            nonsense!

            It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
            created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
            uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this world.
            >
            I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
            through God¡¦s will that something can change or be saved.
            So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
            wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen

            Irina Pahlen
          • larry most
            GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Irina and Vitchislav, Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just dissapeared, like the
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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              GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
              Dear Irina and Vitchislav,
              Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just dissapeared, like the Albanian Church did? Then maybe their would have been NO Church in Russia. I know that if it was "your" relative that was killed, that you would have a difficult time forgiving, but we MUST, because we pray EVERYDAY "For give us our debts ( sins) as we forgive our debtors (those who sin AGAINST US). The key word is AS (the same way). What is past is past and we can't change it. Besides I don't think that living undar the Tsar was a picnic for everybody.
              Love in Christ,
              Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

              goossir <irene.goossens@...> wrote:
              Dear Vitchislav,

              You write:
              �� VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?

              It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
              slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the protesting
              letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
              Nyack Seminar?
              And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
              preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
              >
              �� VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
              brothers now?

              Of course not �V why to you think I keep on writing?

              �� VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
              salvation in the Church.

              I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
              must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.

              VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my eyes
              and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
              murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All I
              hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it as
              hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.

              No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
              well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
              know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
              did compromise with the killers �V enough documentation was
              published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
              ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours prove
              to be not true? Drozhdov��s?, his carreer while other were
              persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
              declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
              sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
              many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
              bishops.

              �� VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
              Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
              cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
              the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
              read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had
              you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.

              I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is taking
              and I cry.

              �� VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth while
              the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities. That
              is why the communion was broken.

              The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
              The MP, Stalin��s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
              Church) was rejected by our Synod.
              There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
              Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.

              �� VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation in
              Russia has changed.

              Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
              renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
              than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
              mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
              same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living in
              luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
              still need more evidence?

              �� VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired as
              a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
              know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
              was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
              of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
              canonical church.

              Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
              schism between us.

              We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
              psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
              taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
              live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged 93,
              is not an act of love �V it is the least that I can say.

              I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
              Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
              spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
              problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
              when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
              faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
              ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his full
              spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
              with whom and what is the situation.
              When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
              took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox Church
              Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church �V this is sheer
              nonsense!

              It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
              created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
              uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this world.
              >
              I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
              through God��s will that something can change or be saved.
              So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
              wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen

              Irina Pahlen





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            • vkozyreff
              Dear Larry, You are full of good will, and I respect this, but you are in error as well. Implying that the collaboration with the Bolsheviks is what saved the
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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                Dear Larry,

                You are full of good will, and I respect this, but you are in error
                as well.

                Implying that the collaboration with the Bolsheviks is what saved the
                Church is heretical. It is the essence of sergianism, which has been
                denounced by the ROCOR tradition. If something has been saved by
                compromising it cannot be the Church, by definition. The Church is
                not to be saved but she saves us. It is the martyrs who saved the
                faith, not the compromises.

                When Irina mentions those crimes, it does not mean that she does not
                forgive. She just says that with or without our pardon, the MP is a
                criminal organisation. The question is of God's pardon here, not of
                ours. God's pardon (at the difference of ours, which must be
                automatic and unconditional), is conditional to repentance and
                metanoya. A criminal cannot be a bishop before he repented, even if
                we pardon him. Anaxios.

                Some say now that they have no proof of what happened in Russia. If
                they do not know, than they do not know that Columbus discovered
                America, and they believe Met. Serghii when he said that the Church
                was not persecuted in Russia. This disserves no reply.

                If you dare compare the suffering in the times of the Russian empire
                and under the Soviet Union, you do not know what you are talking
                about. In his seven years of power, Lenin assassinated 10 millions of
                people. In the eight first months of the Bolshevik regime, 10 times
                more people were executed in Russia than during the eighty years of
                terrorism that preceded the revolution. Just a matter of order of
                magnitude.

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff


                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                > Dear Irina and Vitchislav,
                > Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just
                dissapeared, like the Albanian Church did? Then maybe their would
                have been NO Church in Russia. I know that if it was "your" relative
                that was killed, that you would have a difficult time forgiving, but
                we MUST, because we pray EVERYDAY "For give us our debts ( sins) as
                we forgive our debtors (those who sin AGAINST US). The key word is AS
                (the same way). What is past is past and we can't change it. Besides
                I don't think that living undar the Tsar was a picnic for everybody.
                > Love in Christ,
                > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                >
                > goossir <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
                > Dear Vitchislav,
                >
                > You write:
                > „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?
                >
                > It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                > slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the
                protesting
                > letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                > Nyack Seminar?
                > And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                > preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                > >
                > „« VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                > brothers now?
                >
                > Of course not ¡V why to you think I keep on writing?
                >
                > „« VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                > salvation in the Church.
                >
                > I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
                > must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.
                >
                > VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my
                eyes
                > and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                > murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All
                I
                > hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it
                as
                > hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.
                >
                > No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                > well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
                > know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                > did compromise with the killers ¡V enough documentation was
                > published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                > ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours
                prove
                > to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
                > persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                > declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                > sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                > many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
                > bishops.
                >
                > „« VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                > Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                > cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                > the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                > read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that.
                Had
                > you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.
                >
                > I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is
                taking
                > and I cry.
                >
                > „« VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth
                while
                > the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities.
                That
                > is why the communion was broken.
                >
                > The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                > The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                > Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                > There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                > Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.
                >
                > „« VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation
                in
                > Russia has changed.
                >
                > Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                > renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                > than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
                > mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
                > same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living
                in
                > luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                > still need more evidence?
                >
                > „« VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired
                as
                > a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                > know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
                > was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
                > of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                > canonical church.
                >
                > Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
                > schism between us.
                >
                > We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                > psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                > taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
                > live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged
                93,
                > is not an act of love ¡V it is the least that I can say.
                >
                > I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                > Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                > spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                > problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                > when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                > faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
                > ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his
                full
                > spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                > with whom and what is the situation.
                > When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
                > took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox
                Church
                > Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church ¡V this is sheer
                > nonsense!
                >
                > It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                > created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                > uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this
                world.
                > >
                > I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                > through God¡¦s will that something can change or be saved.
                > So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
                > wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen
                >
                > Irina Pahlen
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
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                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-synod/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                >
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                > Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square
                >
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              • V. Boitchenko
                Dear Michael, Let me repeat again the year now is 2003 and the Patriarch is Alexius II. ...which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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                  Dear Michael,

                  Let me repeat again the year now is 2003 and the Patriarch is Alexius II.

                  "...which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy..." Is this your interpretation or is this actually stated in the decision of the 1971. Ever since 1971 there has been no reordination, reconcecratin, rebaptism, rechrismation, remarriage for those accepted into the Church Abroad from the Moscow Patriarchate. How do you explain that? Let us suppose that patriarchal elections are in fact invalid, does that really mean that the Church evaporates with all its mysteries? What a strange idea.

                  v



                  The Synod has never rescinded the decision of 1971. It confirms the 3rd canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council which states everything that Patriarch Pimen did had no effect,
                  which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy.

                  Many cry that we have to follow Ukaze #362. If we have to abide by Ukaze # 362 then ROCOR has to be one with MP, no autonomy or autocephaly. We can't have one without the other, otherwise we're not abiding by the Ukaze of # 362.

                  Michael N.



                  "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:

                  "Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too."






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                • V. Boitchenko
                  Dear Irina, ... It is in fact clear that there are some, and, in fact, very few people who feel very strongly about it and who were very active writing those
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Irina,

                    >>It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                    >>slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the protesting
                    >>letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                    >>Nyack Seminar?
                    >>And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                    >>preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.

                    It is in fact clear that there are some, and, in fact, very few people who feel very strongly about it and who were very active writing those letters. NO clear evidence was presented in those letters. What is clear, however, is that the Church Abroad is not ready to jump into any sort of union with the Moscow Patriarchate. That was clear before the Conference and the Synod and it remains clear now, and it will remain so even after the All-Diaspora Sobor. It is also clear that some people have mistaken the Church Abroad for one of the schismatic so-called "true orthodox" churches similar to the various "Old Calendar Greek Synods." If you receive the Vertograd-Misinform Bulletin you will see that they are listing ROCOR among those. That is another small category who are very vocal. They developed a theology of their own according to which there is Official World Pseudo-Orthodoxy and True Orthodoxy. For most of the Church it is clear that we should try to work out the problems and that there is Grace and Church Life in the Church in Russia.

                    >>No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as well as I do that millions were killed...

                    You did use the words "if front of your eyes." I understand that you may have had such experience. Yes, there were millions killed. The same millions are commemorated in the Moscow Patriarchate and you cannot deny that it was after all the Moscow Patriarchate that suffered it along with the Russian people and was persecuted as well. Even the Church Abroad has glorified martyrs who remained with Met. Sergius. I presume that you suggest that Moscow Patriarch was supposed to raise people for an uprising against the authorities. I cannot accept that. Church is not a political organization and may exist under any regime.

                    >>Tell me which rumors prove
                    >>to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
                    >>persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                    >>declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step?

                    Yes, "Agent Drozdov" is nothing but a rumor. It comes from a "pop-rasstriga" Gleb Yakunin who supposedly had seen some KGB file. No contemporary secular historian in Russia or abroad will accept it as reliable source, thus it is a rumor. Note that the Russian society is very secular now and the media is free. Does it not seem strange to you that no reliable magazine or news paper has used this information in their publications. How come this file was made available only to Yakunin who had been writing the same things since the 70's (see back issues of the Russkoe Vozrozhdenie) and no one else. Patriarch's career? I do not know a lot of the details. He became widely known only after becoming the Metropolitan of Leningrad and Novgorod. All bishops have some sort of career, I guess. Monasteries is Jerusalem were taken away from us because ex-bp. Varnava and Mother Juliania did not allow the Patriarch to venerate the sites that even the heterodox are allowed to. Sergianism and ecumenism are very loose terms that everyone uses as the wish.

                    >>The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                    >>The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                    >>Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                    >>There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                    >>Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.

                    As I have mentioned before we have saints among those who you call "evil" and "not persecuted."

                    v




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear Viacheslav, You write: Nobody was killed in front of my eyes and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of murder. I do not have reliable
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 30, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Viacheslav,

                      You write: "Nobody was killed in front of my eyes and I cannot accuse
                      any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of murder. I do not have
                      reliable information about their crimes. All I hear is rumours and
                      most of them prove to be not true. Think of it as hypocrisy but I
                      will not judge based on that".

                      You do judge. Moreover, you mix up judging and judging. Your
                      judgement about condemning a person is not required and even
                      forbidden by Christ, even if you do have all the information, but
                      this is not the question.

                      Your judgement however about understanding and knowing from the
                      available historical documents, from the ROCOR teaching and from
                      common knowledge, that the MP did collaborate with the KGB, and did
                      not limit its collaboration to tasks that could not lead to criminal
                      acts by the NKVD, GPU, KGB is required (the spiritual man judges all
                      things). You must judge whether or not the MP was the rock of faith
                      on which Christ built His Church, and hence whether it is the Church
                      that you need for your salvation or a false teacher of the kind about
                      which Christ has warned us.

                      Deciding, as you do, that the MP is axios with the information that
                      you have available is a judgement. Deciding that unrepentant KGB
                      accomplices that consider their collaboration with the murderers as a
                      bold step are good enough to lead the Church is a judgement which may
                      be harmful to the faith and to your salvation.

                      This has no bearing whatsoever with the fact that you decided or not
                      to forgive the crimes that they have committed on others. We must
                      forgive the suffering that have been inflicted on us, not the
                      suffering that has been inflicted on others. Our forgiveness does not
                      absolve the criminals however and does not make them innocent or
                      worthy to lead the Church. That forgiveness is just for our
                      salvation. What absolves crimes is repentance and confession, not our
                      forgiving.

                      I just suggest that your judging that the MP is good enough is a
                      judgement and a wrong judgement, just because it is in contradiction
                      with the traditional teaching of the ROCOR, and because you judge not
                      knowing the facts, as you say yourself.

                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff


                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "goossir"
                      <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
                      > Dear Vitchislav,
                      >
                      > You write:
                      > „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?
                      >
                      > It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                      > slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the
                      protesting
                      > letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                      > Nyack Seminar?
                      > And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                      > preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                      > >
                      > „« VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                      > brothers now?
                      >
                      > Of course not ¡V why to you think I keep on writing?
                      >
                      > „« VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                      > salvation in the Church.
                      >
                      > I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
                      > must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.
                      >
                      > VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my
                      eyes
                      > and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                      > murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All
                      I
                      > hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it
                      as
                      > hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.
                      >
                      > No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                      > well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
                      > know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                      > did compromise with the killers ¡V enough documentation was
                      > published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                      > ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours
                      prove
                      > to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
                      > persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                      > declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                      > sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                      > many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
                      > bishops.
                      >
                      > „« VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                      > Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                      > cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                      > the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                      > read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that.
                      Had
                      > you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.
                      >
                      > I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is
                      taking
                      > and I cry.
                      >
                      > „« VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth
                      while
                      > the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities.
                      That
                      > is why the communion was broken.
                      >
                      > The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                      > The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                      > Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                      > There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                      > Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.
                      >
                      > „« VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation
                      in
                      > Russia has changed.
                      >
                      > Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                      > renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                      > than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
                      > mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
                      > same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living
                      in
                      > luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                      > still need more evidence?
                      >
                      > „« VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired
                      as
                      > a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                      > know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
                      > was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
                      > of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                      > canonical church.
                      >
                      > Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
                      > schism between us.
                      >
                      > We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                      > psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                      > taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
                      > live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged
                      93,
                      > is not an act of love ¡V it is the least that I can say.
                      >
                      > I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                      > Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                      > spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                      > problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                      > when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                      > faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
                      > ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his
                      full
                      > spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                      > with whom and what is the situation.
                      > When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
                      > took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox
                      Church
                      > Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church ¡V this is sheer
                      > nonsense!
                      >
                      > It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                      > created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                      > uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this
                      world.
                      > >
                      > I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                      > through God¡¦s will that something can change or be saved.
                      > So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
                      > wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen
                      >
                      > Irina Pahlen
                    • V. Boitchenko
                      Dear Vladimir, ... I, on the other hand, say that the available historical documents do not prove anything from what you claim. There is no such teaching of
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 30, 2003
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                        Dear Vladimir,

                        >>Your judgement however about understanding and knowing from the
                        >>available historical documents, from the ROCOR teaching and from
                        >>common knowledge, that the MP did collaborate with the KGB, and did
                        >>not limit its collaboration to tasks that could not lead to criminal
                        >>acts by the NKVD, GPU, KGB is required (the spiritual man judges all
                        >>things). You must judge whether or not the MP was the rock of faith
                        >>on which Christ built His Church, and hence whether it is the Church
                        >>that you need for your salvation or a false teacher of the kind about
                        >>which Christ has warned us.

                        I, on the other hand, say that the available historical documents do not prove anything from what you claim. There is no such teaching of the ROCOR(though there may have been harsh statements made by the hierarchs), and, on the contrary, we have glorified saints who remained in the official church, we have recognized and commemorated the hierarchy at different points in history and never denied the presence of Grace in their Mysteries, and the numerous statements by the Synod in the past show that we saw the MP as a part of the Russian Church (even though it was not free). The "common knowledge" among some people abroad is often based on hearsay and bias. My experience in Russia was that with the abundance of historical data and deeper knowledge and understanding of facts, neither the secular historians nor the people in the Church perceive the Church overall as a collaborator with the KGB (even though there may have been isolated cases), however they do see it as the persecuted Russian Church. That is the common knowledge I am familiar with. Besides, I am sorry to say this, and please accept my apologies if it offends you, based on your previous posts on this list, I question your own competence in the knowledge of all the facts you have mentioned.

                        I do have an opinion of my own but I will accept the judgment of the Synod.

                        viacheslav


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • michael nikitin
                        Let s not read things into the epistle that aren t there, just as Patriarch Alexey s forgiveness of past mistakes ,but no mention of his compromising the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 31, 2003
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                          Let's not read things into the epistle that aren't there, just
                          as Patriarch Alexey's forgiveness of past mistakes ,but no
                          mention of his compromising the Russian Church with the godless regime.

                          Why did the Church give us canons if they are meaningless?

                          The MP contends Metr.Sergius saved the Russian Church by
                          colloborating with the godless regime.This is blasphemy.
                          The decision of the Synod of 1971 stands until the MP repents
                          and is recognized by ROCOR. Ideally this should entail the Patriarch coming
                          to a ROCOR Church and asking forgiveness of what
                          Metr.Sergius did. All of those returning to the true Church(ROCOR) from the
                          MP repented and were admitted by way of economia.
                          No baptism,marriage, etc.. is required if the outward form was correct.

                          Economia should not be mistaken for policy.

                          Some say we should trust the bishops in whatever they do, but they were proved wrong.
                          Just as in the days of St.Maximos the Confessor.
                          They were proved to be uniting without the Holy Spirit as the faithful of ROCOR
                          showed.

                          Michael N.



                          "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
                          Dear Michael,

                          Let me repeat again the year now is 2003 and the Patriarch is Alexius II.

                          "...which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy..." Is this your interpretation or is this actually stated in the decision of the 1971. Ever since 1971 there has been no reordination, reconcecratin, rebaptism, rechrismation, remarriage for those accepted into the Church Abroad from the Moscow Patriarchate. How do you explain that? Let us suppose that patriarchal elections are in fact invalid, does that really mean that the Church evaporates with all its mysteries? What a strange idea.

                          v



                          The Synod has never rescinded the decision of 1971. It confirms the 3rd canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council which states everything that Patriarch Pimen did had no effect,
                          which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy.

                          Many cry that we have to follow Ukaze #362. If we have to abide by Ukaze # 362 then ROCOR has to be one with MP, no autonomy or autocephaly. We can't have one without the other, otherwise we're not abiding by the Ukaze of # 362.

                          Michael N.



                          "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:

                          "Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too."




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                        • larry most
                          GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Vladirir, I realise that I don t know about all of the happenings during the Soviet period, but I do know
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 31, 2003
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                            GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                            Dear Vladirir,
                            I realise that I don't know about all of the happenings during the Soviet period, but I do know that many Christians perservered. What I am saying is that what has happened, has happened and we can't do a whole lot about it. I remember reading in school a book called " I found God in Soviet Russia" (but I cannot remember the author's name). This was before I had EVER heard of the Orthodox Church. (My parents were not church goers). I was so impressed by the book, that I never forgot it. I have also read every book by Alexander Solzenitsan that has been translated into English, So I'm well aware of the overwelming suffering by Christians in the Soviet Union. However, for me I don't see what can be accomplished by turning our backs on the MP and most of the other jurisdictions in the US. I'm sorry, but I am interested in a church that tries to share its Orthodoxy.
                            Love in Christ,
                            Sub-deacon Lawrence

                            vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
                            Dear Larry,

                            You are full of good will, and I respect this, but you are in error
                            as well.

                            Implying that the collaboration with the Bolsheviks is what saved the
                            Church is heretical. It is the essence of sergianism, which has been
                            denounced by the ROCOR tradition. If something has been saved by
                            compromising it cannot be the Church, by definition. The Church is
                            not to be saved but she saves us. It is the martyrs who saved the
                            faith, not the compromises.

                            When Irina mentions those crimes, it does not mean that she does not
                            forgive. She just says that with or without our pardon, the MP is a
                            criminal organisation. The question is of God's pardon here, not of
                            ours. God's pardon (at the difference of ours, which must be
                            automatic and unconditional), is conditional to repentance and
                            metanoya. A criminal cannot be a bishop before he repented, even if
                            we pardon him. Anaxios.

                            Some say now that they have no proof of what happened in Russia. If
                            they do not know, than they do not know that Columbus discovered
                            America, and they believe Met. Serghii when he said that the Church
                            was not persecuted in Russia. This disserves no reply.

                            If you dare compare the suffering in the times of the Russian empire
                            and under the Soviet Union, you do not know what you are talking
                            about. In his seven years of power, Lenin assassinated 10 millions of
                            people. In the eight first months of the Bolshevik regime, 10 times
                            more people were executed in Russia than during the eighty years of
                            terrorism that preceded the revolution. Just a matter of order of
                            magnitude.

                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff


                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                            <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                            > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                            > Dear Irina and Vitchislav,
                            > Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just
                            dissapeared, like the Albanian Church did? Then maybe their would
                            have been NO Church in Russia. I know that if it was "your" relative
                            that was killed, that you would have a difficult time forgiving, but
                            we MUST, because we pray EVERYDAY "For give us our debts ( sins) as
                            we forgive our debtors (those who sin AGAINST US). The key word is AS
                            (the same way). What is past is past and we can't change it. Besides
                            I don't think that living undar the Tsar was a picnic for everybody.
                            > Love in Christ,
                            > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                            >
                            > goossir <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
                            > Dear Vitchislav,
                            >
                            > You write:
                            > �� VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?
                            >
                            > It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                            > slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the
                            protesting
                            > letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                            > Nyack Seminar?
                            > And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                            > preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                            > >
                            > �� VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                            > brothers now?
                            >
                            > Of course not �V why to you think I keep on writing?
                            >
                            > �� VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                            > salvation in the Church.
                            >
                            > I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
                            > must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.
                            >
                            > VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my
                            eyes
                            > and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                            > murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All
                            I
                            > hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it
                            as
                            > hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.
                            >
                            > No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                            > well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
                            > know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                            > did compromise with the killers �V enough documentation was
                            > published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                            > ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours
                            prove
                            > to be not true? Drozhdov��s?, his carreer while other were
                            > persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                            > declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                            > sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                            > many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
                            > bishops.
                            >
                            > �� VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                            > Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                            > cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                            > the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                            > read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that.
                            Had
                            > you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.
                            >
                            > I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is
                            taking
                            > and I cry.
                            >
                            > �� VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth
                            while
                            > the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities.
                            That
                            > is why the communion was broken.
                            >
                            > The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                            > The MP, Stalin��s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                            > Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                            > There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                            > Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.
                            >
                            > �� VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation
                            in
                            > Russia has changed.
                            >
                            > Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                            > renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                            > than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
                            > mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
                            > same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living
                            in
                            > luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                            > still need more evidence?
                            >
                            > �� VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired
                            as
                            > a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                            > know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
                            > was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
                            > of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                            > canonical church.
                            >
                            > Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
                            > schism between us.
                            >
                            > We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                            > psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                            > taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
                            > live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged
                            93,
                            > is not an act of love �V it is the least that I can say.
                            >
                            > I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                            > Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                            > spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                            > problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                            > when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                            > faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
                            > ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his
                            full
                            > spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                            > with whom and what is the situation.
                            > When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
                            > took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox
                            Church
                            > Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church �V this is sheer
                            > nonsense!
                            >
                            > It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                            > created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                            > uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this
                            world.
                            > >
                            > I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                            > through God��s will that something can change or be saved.
                            > So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
                            > wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen
                            >
                            > Irina Pahlen
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • vkozyreff
                            Dear Larry, Russia has given to God more martyrs than all nations taken together ever did. The question is: how do we tell true orthodoxy from false orthodoxy,
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 31, 2003
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                              Dear Larry,

                              Russia has given to God more martyrs than all nations taken together
                              ever did.

                              The question is: how do we tell true orthodoxy from false orthodoxy,
                              knowing that false orthodoxy is seducing? Shall we share orthodoxy or
                              false orthodoxy?

                              In God,

                              Vladimir Kozyreff

                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                              <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                              > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                              > Dear Vladirir,
                              > I realise that I don't know about all of the happenings during the
                              Soviet period, but I do know that many Christians perservered. What I
                              am saying is that what has happened, has happened and we can't do a
                              whole lot about it. I remember reading in school a book called " I
                              found God in Soviet Russia" (but I cannot remember the author's
                              name). This was before I had EVER heard of the Orthodox Church. (My
                              parents were not church goers). I was so impressed by the book, that
                              I never forgot it. I have also read every book by Alexander
                              Solzenitsan that has been translated into English, So I'm well aware
                              of the overwelming suffering by Christians in the Soviet Union.
                              However, for me I don't see what can be accomplished by turning our
                              backs on the MP and most of the other jurisdictions in the US. I'm
                              sorry, but I am interested in a church that tries to share its
                              Orthodoxy.
                              > Love in Christ,
                              > Sub-deacon Lawrence
                              >
                              > vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                              > Dear Larry,
                              >
                              > You are full of good will, and I respect this, but you are in error
                              > as well.
                              >
                              > Implying that the collaboration with the Bolsheviks is what saved
                              the
                              > Church is heretical. It is the essence of sergianism, which has
                              been
                              > denounced by the ROCOR tradition. If something has been saved by
                              > compromising it cannot be the Church, by definition. The Church is
                              > not to be saved but she saves us. It is the martyrs who saved the
                              > faith, not the compromises.
                              >
                              > When Irina mentions those crimes, it does not mean that she does
                              not
                              > forgive. She just says that with or without our pardon, the MP is a
                              > criminal organisation. The question is of God's pardon here, not of
                              > ours. God's pardon (at the difference of ours, which must be
                              > automatic and unconditional), is conditional to repentance and
                              > metanoya. A criminal cannot be a bishop before he repented, even if
                              > we pardon him. Anaxios.
                              >
                              > Some say now that they have no proof of what happened in Russia. If
                              > they do not know, than they do not know that Columbus discovered
                              > America, and they believe Met. Serghii when he said that the Church
                              > was not persecuted in Russia. This disserves no reply.
                              >
                              > If you dare compare the suffering in the times of the Russian
                              empire
                              > and under the Soviet Union, you do not know what you are talking
                              > about. In his seven years of power, Lenin assassinated 10 millions
                              of
                              > people. In the eight first months of the Bolshevik regime, 10 times
                              > more people were executed in Russia than during the eighty years of
                              > terrorism that preceded the revolution. Just a matter of order of
                              > magnitude.
                              >
                              > In God,
                              >
                              > Vladimir Kozyreff
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                              > <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                              > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                              > > Dear Irina and Vitchislav,
                              > > Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just
                              > dissapeared, like the Albanian Church did? Then maybe their would
                              > have been NO Church in Russia. I know that if it was "your"
                              relative
                              > that was killed, that you would have a difficult time forgiving,
                              but
                              > we MUST, because we pray EVERYDAY "For give us our debts ( sins) as
                              > we forgive our debtors (those who sin AGAINST US). The key word is
                              AS
                              > (the same way). What is past is past and we can't change it.
                              Besides
                              > I don't think that living undar the Tsar was a picnic for
                              everybody.
                              > > Love in Christ,
                              > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                              > >
                              > > goossir <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
                              > > Dear Vitchislav,
                              > >
                              > > You write:
                              > > „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?
                              > >
                              > > It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                              > > slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the
                              > protesting
                              > > letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during
                              the
                              > > Nyack Seminar?
                              > > And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                              > > preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                              > > >
                              > > „« VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                              > > brothers now?
                              > >
                              > > Of course not ¡V why to you think I keep on writing?
                              > >
                              > > „« VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                              > > salvation in the Church.
                              > >
                              > > I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why
                              I
                              > > must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.
                              > >
                              > > VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my
                              > eyes
                              > > and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                              > > murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes.
                              All
                              > I
                              > > hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it
                              > as
                              > > hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.
                              > >
                              > > No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                              > > well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you
                              should
                              > > know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                              > > did compromise with the killers ¡V enough documentation was
                              > > published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                              > > ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours
                              > prove
                              > > to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
                              > > persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                              > > declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                              > > sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                              > > many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets
                              and
                              > > bishops.
                              > >
                              > > „« VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                              > > Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                              > > cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                              > > the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                              > > read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that.
                              > Had
                              > > you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.
                              > >
                              > > I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is
                              > taking
                              > > and I cry.
                              > >
                              > > „« VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth
                              > while
                              > > the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities.
                              > That
                              > > is why the communion was broken.
                              > >
                              > > The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                              > > The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                              > > Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                              > > There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                              > > Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.
                              > >
                              > > „« VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation
                              > in
                              > > Russia has changed.
                              > >
                              > > Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                              > > renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                              > > than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there:
                              the
                              > > mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and
                              the
                              > > same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living
                              > in
                              > > luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                              > > still need more evidence?
                              > >
                              > > „« VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is
                              retired
                              > as
                              > > a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                              > > know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that
                              he
                              > > was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is
                              because
                              > > of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                              > > canonical church.
                              > >
                              > > Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal
                              the
                              > > schism between us.
                              > >
                              > > We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                              > > psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                              > > taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person
                              to
                              > > live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged
                              > 93,
                              > > is not an act of love ¡V it is the least that I can say.
                              > >
                              > > I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                              > > Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                              > > spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                              > > problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                              > > when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                              > > faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to
                              his
                              > > ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his
                              > full
                              > > spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                              > > with whom and what is the situation.
                              > > When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take
                              he
                              > > took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox
                              > Church
                              > > Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church ¡V this is
                              sheer
                              > > nonsense!
                              > >
                              > > It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                              > > created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                              > > uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this
                              > world.
                              > > >
                              > > I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                              > > through God¡¦s will that something can change or be saved.
                              > > So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered
                              between
                              > > wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass.
                              Amen
                              > >
                              > > Irina Pahlen
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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