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The free voice of the Russian church

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear List, Vl Gavriil has just given an interview to Gazeta RU on December 22, 2003. I certainly like much more what he says than what Vl Mark says. I cannot
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 26, 2003
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      Dear List,

      Vl Gavriil has just given an interview to Gazeta RU on December 22,
      2003. I certainly like much more what he says than what Vl Mark says.
      I cannot understand how such a dissonance between those two hierarchs
      when speaking in public under the eyes of the whole world is
      tolearted by the Synod, regarding such important matters.

      One thing I do not understand is Vl Gavriil saying that he hopes the
      rapprochement will not cause a schism in the ROCOR. Is ROCOR (V) not
      a schsim any longer? Or was it about arianism?

      If indeed, the ROCOR does not consider the MP as being her mother
      Church, why allow the MP making statements implying that the ROCOR
      does?

      In God,

      V. Kozyreff

      http://www.gazeta.ru/2003/12/19/intervjumitr.shtml

      Some of Vl Gavriil's statements (approximately):

      – We consider ourselves as being the free voice of the Russian
      church.
      – The membership of the MP in the ecumenical movement is
      unacceptable.
      – We have never called the MP our mother church because it has
      not given us birth.
      – Even if the iron curtain has fallen, we cannot just forget
      the questions that have separated us.
      – It does not mean that we are ready for eucharistic communion.
      – A large part of the Church is against the union with the MP.
      – We hope that the rapprochement with the MP will not cause a
      schism (sic).
      – In our mind, we have the problem of being swallowed
      – A significant part of the Church looks negatively at the
      union because of past collaboration with the KGB and the hierarchs
      having collaborated being still in place.
      – One might speak about our autonomy being acknowledged by the
      MP, but not being received from it.



      Òåêñò: Ïàâåë Êîðîáîâ («Êîììåðñàíòú»), ñïåöèàëüíî äëÿ «Ãàçåòû.Ru»
      Ôîòî: www.stxenia.ca

      Â ýêñêëþçèâíîì èíòåðâüþ «Ãàçåòå.Ru» ñåêðåòàðü Àðõèåðåéñêîãî ñèíîäà
      ÐÏÖÇ åïèñêîï Ìàíõýòòåíñêèé Ãàâðèèë ðàññêàçàë, ÷òî ìåøàåò ñêîðîìó
      îáúåäèíåíèþ Ðóññêîé ïðàâîñëàâíîé öåðêâè.

      – Âàøå ïðåîñâÿùåíñòâî, íà äíÿõ çàêîí÷èëñÿ Àðõèåðåéñêèé ñîáîð,
      êîòîðûé äîëæåí áûë ðàññìîòðåòü âîïðîñ ñáëèæåíèÿ Ðóññêîé ïðàâîñëàâíîé
      öåðêâè çà ðóáåæîì (ÐÏÖÇ) ñ Ðóññêîé ïðàâîñëàâíîé öåðêîâüþ Ìîñêîâñêîãî
      ïàòðèàðõàòà (ÐÏÖ ÌÏ). ×òî ðåøèë ñîáîð?

      Ýêóìåíèçì, ñåðãèàíñòâî, åâõàðèñòè÷åñêîå îáùåíèå
      Ýêóìåíè÷åñêîå äâèæåíèå, ýêóìåíèçì (îò ãðå÷. oikumene – îáèòàåìûé ìèð,
      Âñåëåííàÿ) – äâèæåíèå õðèñòèàíñêèõ öåðêâåé çà óñòðàíåíèå
      ðàçîáù¸ííîñòè ìåæäó íèìè è ñïëî÷åíèå öåðêîâíûõ ñèë â ìåæäóíàðîäíîì
      ìàñøòàáå. Âîçíèêëî ïî èíèöèàòèâå ïðîòåñòàíòñêèõ öåðêâåé ÑØÀ è
      Çàïàäíîé Åâðîïû â íà÷àëå ÕÕ...

      – ß äóìàþ, ÷òî ñáëèæåíèå äîëæíî èäòè ïîñòåïåííî. Íàì íåîáõîäèì äèàëîã
      äëÿ âûÿñíåíèÿ íåêîòîðûõ ïðåãðàä, êîòîðûå ðàçäåëÿþò íàñ è ïî ñåé äåíü.
      Ïîýòîìó Ñîáîðîì íàçíà÷åíà ñïåöèàëüíàÿ êîìèññèÿ. Îíà äîëæíà áóäåò
      âñòðåòèòüñÿ ñ êîìèññèåé Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèè, êîòîðàÿ, êàê ÿ
      ïîíèìàþ, áóäåò ñîçäàíà 27 äåêàáðÿ íà çàñåäàíèè Ñâÿùåííîãî ñèíîäà.
      Ïåðâàÿ âñòðå÷à êîìèññèé, ñêîðåå âñåãî, áóäåò îçíàêîìèòåëüíîé – íàì
      íàäî áóäåò ïîçíàêîìèòüñÿ ñ òåìè âîïðîñàìè, êîòîðûå ìû ïîñòàâèì äëÿ
      íàëàæèâàíèÿ áóäóùåãî äèàëîãà.

      – Êàêèå âîïðîñû áóäåò ðåøàòü êîìèññèÿ?

      – ß äóìàþ, ýòè âîïðîñû íå èçìåíèëèñü: ñåðãèàíñòâî è ýêóìåíèçì.
      Íàïðèìåð, ìû áóäåì ãîâîðèòü î òîì, ÷òî ÐÏÖ ÌÏ ÿâëÿåòñÿ ÷ëåíîì
      Âñåìèðíîãî ñîâåòà öåðêâåé (ÂÑÖ), ÷òî íà íàø âçãëÿä ñîâåðøåííî
      íåäîïóñòèìî.

      – Âñå ëè àðõèåðåè âûñêàçàëèñü íà Ñîáîðå çà ñáëèæåíèå ÐÏÖÇ è ÐÏÖ ÌÏ
      èëè áûëè êàêèå-òî äðóãèå ìíåíèÿ?

      – Åñòåñòâåííî, áûëè ðàçíûå ìíåíèÿ. Òåì íå ìåíåå, âñå àðõèåðåè
      ñîãëàñíû â îäíîì: íåîáõîäèìî è ñîâåðøåííî íåâðåäíî áûëî áû ñåé÷àñ
      íà÷àòü ïðîöåññ äèàëîãà è êàêèõ-òî äîáðûõ âçàèìîîòíîøåíèé. Ýòî íå
      çíà÷èò, åñòåñòâåííî, ÷òî ìû áóäåì â ñêîðîì áóäóùåì îáúåäèíÿòüñÿ. Ýòî
      íå çíà÷èò, ÷òî ó íàñ íà÷íåòñÿ åâõàðèñòè÷åñêîå îáùåíèå. Ýòîò ïðîöåññ,
      ìîæåò áûòü, çàéìåò åùå ìíîãî âðåìåíè, ïîêà ìû ðåøèì ïîñòàâëåííûå
      âîïðîñû, åñëè âîîáùå èõ ðåøèì. Íî ìû ìîæåì íà÷àòü äèàëîã. Ýòî,
      êñòàòè, îòìåòèë è ñàì ïàòðèàðõ Àëåêñèé II, êîãäà íàøà äåëåãàöèÿ áûëà
      â Ðîññèè. Îí ñêàçàë, ÷òî âîïðîñ åâõàðèñòè÷åñêîãî îáùåíèÿ íå ìîæåò
      ñåé÷àñ îáñóæäàòüñÿ, ïîêà ìû íå âûÿñíèëè òå ïðîáëåìû, êîòîðûå ó íàñ
      íàêîïèëèñü.

      – À îáñóæäàëè ëè íà Ñîáîðå âîïðîñ î âîçìîæíîé ôîðìå îáúåäèíåíèÿ ÐÏÖÇ
      ñ ÐÏÖ ÌÏ? Êàêàÿ, íà âàø âçãëÿä, ìîãëà áû áûòü ôîðìà?

      – Òðóäíî îòâåòèòü íà ýòîò âîïðîñ. Ïåðåä Àðõèåðåéñêèì ñîáîðîì ïðîøëî
      Âñåçàðóáåæíîå ïàñòûðñêîå ñîâåùàíèå, è ýòîò âîïðîñ, åñòåñòâåííî, áûë
      íà íåì ãëàâíûì. Êîíå÷íî, áûëî ïðåäñòàâëåíî ìíîãî ðàçíûõ ìíåíèé è
      çíà÷èòåëüíàÿ ÷àñòü ó÷àñòíèêîâ ñîâåùàíèÿ âûñêàçûâàëà ñâîè âîëíåíèÿ ïî
      ïîâîäó ñêîðîãî îáúåäèíåíèÿ. Ïî÷åìó îíè âûñêàçûâàëè îïàñåíèÿ? Äà
      ïîòîìó, ÷òî äëÿ íèõ, êàê è äëÿ çíà÷èòåëüíîé ÷àñòè íàøåé ïàñòâû,
      àêòóàëüíû è ïî ñåé äåíü âîïðîñû ýêóìåíèçìà è ñåðãèàíñòâà. À ÷òî
      êàñàåòñÿ ñáëèæåíèÿ, òî ÿ äóìàþ, ÷òî âñå åãî æåëàþò. Íî îíî äîëæíî
      áûòü îñíîâàíî íà îáùèõ è ïðàâèëüíûõ ïðèíöèïàõ, à íå ïðîñòî
      ñêàçàíî, «äàâàéòå âñå çàáóäåì è ïåðå÷åðêíåì íàøó èñòîðèþ». Íàøà
      öåðêîâü âñåãäà î÷åíü ñòðîãî îòíîñèëàñü ê ýòèì âîïðîñàì.

      – Êàêîâà áûëà öåëü Âñåçàðóáåæíîãî ñîâåùàíèÿ? Áûë ëè ýòî
      êîíñóëüòàòèâíûé ñîâåò, ñ ïîìîùüþ êîòîðîãî ìîæíî áûëî óçíàòü ìíåíèå
      äóõîâåíñòâà ïî ïîâîäó âîçìîæíîãî îáúåäèíåíèÿ?

      – Äà, ìû õîòåëè óñëûøàòü íàñòðîåíèÿ íàøåé ïàñòâû, à îíî ïåðåäàåòñÿ
      ÷åðåç íàøèõ êëèðèêîâ. Ìû õîòåëè óçíàòü, êàê ëþäè îòíîñÿòñÿ ê âîïðîñó
      âîçìîæíîãî â áóäóùåì îáúåäèíåíèÿ.

      – Îòíîøåíèå äóõîâåíñòâà ê îáúåäèíåíèþ ïîëîæèòåëüíîå?

      – Íåò, êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë, áûëè òå, êòî âûñêàçûâàëèñü ïîëîæèòåëüíî, íî
      çíà÷èòåëüíàÿ ÷àñòü âûñêàçûâàëàñü î÷åíü îñòîðîæíî, ÿ áû äàæå ñêàçàë
      îòðèöàòåëüíî, â îòíîøåíèè îáúåäèíåíèÿ. Ìíîãèå äàæå âûðàæàëè íåäîâåðèå
      Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèè, ãäå îñòàëîñü åùå íåìàëî àðõèåðååâ, êîòîðûå â
      ñâîå âðåìÿ äîëæíû áûëè ñîòðóäíè÷àòü ñ ÊÃÁ. È òàê êàê ýòè èåðàðõè âñå
      åùå îñòàþòñÿ íà ñâîèõ ìåñòàõ, òî ìíîãèå íàøè áàòþøêè âûñêàçûâàëè
      îïàñåíèÿ ïî ïîâîäó âîçìîæíîñòè íûíåøíåãî îáúåäèíåíèÿ. Íî áûëè è òå,
      êòî âûñêàçûâàë ñîâåðøåííî ïðîòèâîïîëîæíîå ìíåíèå, ÷òî, íàîáîðîò,
      âðåìÿ óæå íàçðåëî.

      – Îäèí èç ó÷àñòíèêîâ ñîâåùàíèÿ ðàññêàçàë ìíå, ÷òî â àäðåñ àðõèåðååâ
      çâó÷àëà êðèòèêà çà òî, ÷òî ïðîöåññ ñáëèæåíèÿ ðàçâèâàåòñÿ òàê
      ñòðåìèòåëüíî. Òàê ëè ýòî?

      – Äà, ñîâåðøåííî âåðíî. Ìíîãèå áûëè â íåäîóìåíèè îò òàêèõ òåìïîâ
      íàøèõ ïåðåãîâîðîâ. Ýòî êàñàåòñÿ è ïîåçäêè íàøåé äåëåãàöèè â Ìîñêâó, è
      ïðåäïîëàãàåìîãî âèçèòà ìèòðîïîëèòà ê ïàòðèàðõó. Â îáùåì, ýòî âûçûâàåò
      íåêîòîðîå âîëíåíèå. Ìíîãèå ñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî íóæíî ïîäõîäèòü ê ýòîìó áîëåå
      îñòîðîæíî è ïîñòåïåííî.

      – Îäíîé èç ãëàâíûõ òåì Ñîáîðà áûë âîïðîñ î ïîåçäêå ìèòðîïîëèòà Ëàâðà
      â íà÷àëå ãîäà â Ìîñêâó. Îäîáðèëè ëè àðõèåðåè ýòîò âèçèò?

      – Áîëüøàÿ ÷àñòü îäîáðèëà, õîòÿ è íå âñå. Íî âîïðîñ î ìåñòå è âðåìåíè
      âèçèòà áóäóò ðåøàòü îáå êîìèññèè ïîñëå Ðîæäåñòâà.

      – À êàêîâà ïðåäïîëàãàåìàÿ öåëü ïðèåçäà ìèòðîïîëèòà Ëàâðà â Ðîññèþ.
      Ðàíüøå ãîâîðèëîñü, ÷òî ìèòðîïîëèò äîëæåí ïîäïèñàòü ñ ïàòðèàðõîì íåêîå
      ñîãëàøåíèå?

      – Íè÷åãî ïîäïèñûâàòü îíè ñåé÷àñ íå áóäóò. Åñëè âèçèò ñîñòîèòñÿ, òî îí
      áóäåò òîëüêî îçíàêîìèòåëüíûì.

      – Çàðóáåæíàÿ öåðêîâü ñîçäàâàëàñü â 20-å ãîäû, è åå êîíå÷íàÿ öåëü âñå-
      òàêè îáúåäèíåíèå ñ ìàòåðüþ-öåðêîâüþ â Ðîññèè. Íà âàø âçãëÿä, êîãäà
      ýòî ìîæåò ïðîèçîéòè?

      – Âî-ïåðâûõ, ìû íèêîãäà íå ñ÷èòàëè Ìîñêîâñêóþ ïàòðèàðõèþ ñâîåé
      ìàòåðüþ, ïîòîìó ÷òî, êàê ãîâîðèòñÿ, îíà íàñ íå ðîäèëà. Âî-âòîðûõ,
      ìîæåò áûòü, ìû è ÿâëÿåìñÿ âðåìåííîé ñòðóêòóðîé, íî, òåì íå ìåíåå, ìû
      ñ÷èòàëè è ñ÷èòàåì ñåáÿ ñâîáîäíûì ãîëîñîì ðóññêîé öåðêâè. È äàæå
      ñåé÷àñ, êîãäà æåëåçíûé çàíàâåñ ïàë è íàñòóïèëà ñâîáîäà, ìû âñå ðàâíî
      ñ÷èòàåì, ÷òî òå âîïðîñû, êîòîðûå íàñ ðàçäåëÿþò, íå ìîãóò áûòü ïðîñòî
      çàáûòû. Ìû íå ìîæåì ïîéòè íà êîìïðîìèññ ñî ñâîåé ñîâåñòüþ, ñî ñâîèì
      ïðîøëûì, ïîòîìó ÷òî òîãäà ìû ïåðå÷åðêíåì íàøó èñòîðèþ. Äàé Áîã, ÷òîáû
      êîãäà-íèáóäü öåðêîâü ñòàëà åäèíîé. Íî ìû òàêæå äîëæíû ïîíèìàòü è
      âàæíîñòü ñâîáîäíîãî è áåñêîìïðîìèññíîãî ãîëîñà çàðóáåæíîé öåðêâè.
      Ïîýòîìó òðóäíî îòâåòèòü íà âàø âîïðîñ, êîãäà ìîæåò íàçðåòü âðåìÿ äëÿ
      îáúåäèíåíèÿ.

      – À âû íå áîèòåñü, ÷òî îáúåäèíåíèå ìîæåò âíåñòè ðàñêîë â ðÿäû
      çàðóáåæíîé öåðêâè?

      – Ìû íàäååìñÿ, ÷òî ýòîãî íå áóäåò. Äëÿ ýòîãî ìû è ñîçâàëè ïàñòûðñêîå
      ñîâåùàíèå, ÷òîáû äàòü âîçìîæíîñòü äóõîâåíñòâó âûñêàçàòüñÿ îò ëèöà
      ñâîèõ ïðèõîäîâ. Åñòåñòâåííî, íèêîìó íå æåëàòåëåí ðàñêîë, è ìû áóäåì
      äåëàòü âñå âîçìîæíîå, ÷òîáû ýòîãî íå ïðîèçîøëî. Ìû ìàëåíüêàÿ, ïî
      ñðàâíåíèþ ñ Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèåé, öåðêîâü. Ó íàñ âñåãî 15
      àðõèåðååâ, à ó íèõ – 150. È ëþäè áîÿòñÿ ëèøèòüñÿ ñâîáîäû, êîòîðàÿ ó
      íàñ åñòü. Îíè áîÿòñÿ, ÷òî ìû ìîæåì áûòü ïîãëîùåíû Ìîñêîâñêîé
      ïàòðèàðõèåé.

      – À òîãäà íà ÷òî âû ãîòîâû ïîéòè, åñëè òàê áîèòåñü ïîãëîùåíèÿ?

      – Ïðîáëåìà ïîãëîùåíèÿ ó âñåõ íà óìå, íî ìû ïîíèìàåì, ÷òî ñåé÷àñ
      ìîæåì, ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå, íàëàäèòü äîáðûå îòíîøåíèÿ. Òî, ÷òî íàøà
      äåëåãàöèÿ ïîñåòèëà Ìîñêâó, ìíîãèõ, ìîæåò áûòü, è ñìóòèëî. Íî, ñ
      äðóãîé ñòîðîíû, ýòî äàëî âîçìîæíîñòü ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿì ÐÏÖÇ
      ïîçíàêîìèòüñÿ ñ ïàòðèàðõîì è ÷ëåíàìè Ñâÿùåííîãî ñèíîäà, à òàêæå
      ïîêàçàòü íàøó äîáðóþ âîëþ. È ýòî íàñ íè ê ÷åìó íå îáÿçûâàåò – ìû
      ïðîñòî ïîêàçàëè, ÷òî ãîòîâû èäòè íàâñòðå÷ó.

      – Êàê Âû îòíîñèòåñü ê âûñêàçûâàíèÿì, ÷òî åñëè ïðîèçîéäåò îáúåäèíåíèå,
      òî Çàðóáåæíàÿ öåðêîâü äîëæíà ïîëó÷èòü ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíîñòü, àâòîêåôàëèþ?

      – Ìû åñòü è îñòàåìñÿ àâòîíîìíûìè. Ïîýòîìó ãîâîðèòü î êàêîé-òî
      àâòîíîìèè èëè î ïîëó÷åíèè åå – íå ñîâñåì ïðàâèëüíî. Ýòî òîãäà áû
      îçíà÷àëî, ÷òî ìû ïðèçíàåì ãëàâåíñòâî Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèè. Ìû áû
      òîãäà íàçûâàëè åå ìàòåðüþ-öåðêîâüþ. À ìû åå òàê íå íàçûâàåì. Îíà
      ÷àñòü ðóññêîé öåðêâè è ìû ñåáÿ ñ÷èòàåì ÷àñòüþ ðóññêîé öåðêâè. Ïîýòîìó
      åñëè ãîâîðèòü îá àâòîíîìèè, òî íóæíî ãîâîðèòü î ïðèçíàíèè íàøåé
      àâòîíîìèè ñî ñòîðîíû Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèè. À ïîëó÷åíèå, ÿ äóìàþ,
      èñêëþ÷åíî. Ìû è òàê, ïîâòîðþñü, óæå àâòîíîìíû.

      22 ÄÅÊÀÁÐß 10:06
    • vkozyreff
      Dear List, A few comments about Vl Gavriil s declarations. – We consider ourselves as being the free voice of the Russian church. This implies that the MP is
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 27, 2003
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        Dear List,

        A few comments about Vl Gavriil's declarations.

        – We consider ourselves as being the free voice of the Russian
        church.
        This implies that the MP is not. What kind of union are we talking
        about, with an organisation that claims to be free but is not? If the
        MP is not free, with whom is the ROCOR talking? With the MP's master?
        If a "Church" is not free, is it the Church? Is the Church allowed to
        negotiate with an entity which is the master of an organisation that
        claims to be the Church but is not and thus deceives the believers?
        When Vl Gavriil says "We consider ourselves as being the free voice
        of the Russian church", who is "we"? Is it the entire ROCOR? Does the
        entire ROCOR consider that the MP is not free? Is Vl Mark of that
        opinion as well?

        – A significant part of the Church looks negatively at the
        union because of past collaboration with the KGB and the hierarchs
        having collaborated being still in place.
        Is this concept understandable? Is this going to be ignored by
        letting the majority decide anyway (a kind of updated "sobornost")?

        – The membership of the MP in the ecumenical movement is
        unacceptable.
        If so, why does Vl Lavr say that there is no obstacle any more for
        the union? Does the MP give any sign in declarations or in deeds that
        it is going to change course in this matter?

        – We have never called the MP our mother church because it has
        not given us birth.
        Can the ROCOR unite with an MP that claims to be the mother church,
        while the ROCOR claims it is not? Can there be a compromise between
        being the mother and not being the mother? Can there be a compropmise
        in matters of faith? Do we hope the MP will renounce its claim? Do we
        hope the ROCOR will accept it after all? Or will this just be
        ignored? If the MP is not the "mother church", is it really the
        Patriarchate? If it is the Patriarchate, is it not really the mother
        Church? Is this not an essential difference, and can we predict that
        it will be resolved within a defined time period?

        – One might speak about our autonomy being acknowledged by the
        MP, but not being received from it.
        If so, who gave the MP its autonomy? Patriarch Tikhon? If yes, than
        the MP is the mother church.

        – In our mind, we have the problem of being swallowed
        Is this not the simplest and most operational answer to all of the
        above and further questions?

        – Even if the iron curtain has fallen, we cannot just forget
        the questions that have separated us.
        Why then agree not to mention any longer the differences which may be
        an obstacle to a reunion and why take the latter for granted? Why
        claim that sergianism has gone if the MP is still not the free voice
        of the Church and why claim that the fall of communism erases the sin
        of sergianism that has been committed and is being called "a bold
        step"?

        – It does not mean that we are ready for eucharistic communion.
        The main plans for reunion will nevertheless be confirmed at the time
        of a personal meeting in January 2004 between the patriarch and Met.
        Lavr, who should sign an agreement about the basis for unity.
        According to the patriarch, the question of the restoration of
        eucharistic fellowship could be resolved within a year, and the
        priests of ROCOR will be able to concelebrate and laity will commune
        together.
        http://fb02.uni-muenster.de/fb02/oekfried/anlagen/abt2/03112701.htm

        – A large part of the Church is against the union with the MP.
        We hope that the rapprochement with the MP will not cause a
        schism (sic).
        Vl Mark mentions, "…certain extremists among the clergy… These
        clergymen were in fact the largest part of the ROCOR clergy in France
        and their "extremism" was a reaction in protest against the
        ecumenical contacts of Bishop Ambrose and his close relations with
        representatives of the MP. Is the very existence of a ROCOR (L) and a
        ROCOR (V) not a schism?

        Were the clergy and faithful of the ROCOR (V) previously members of
        ROCOR when it was one? If they are not any longer united, is this not
        a schism? Is the schism not related to the ROCOR's rapprochement with
        the MP? Is the ROCOR (L) not engaged in legal pursuits against ROCOR
        (V)? Incidentally, as the ROCOR clergy are listening to speeches at
        their conference in Nyack, NY, about the rosy future that expects
        them once they join the "mother-church, the ROCOR (L) spares no
        effort in trying to send their "brother in Christ," Metropolitan
        Vitaly, to an early grave. The Metropolitan is 93 years old and that
        to answer tricky lawyer's questions may be difficult even for someone
        much younger.

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
        <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
        > Dear List,
        >
        > Vl Gavriil has just given an interview to Gazeta RU on December 22,
        > 2003. I certainly like much more what he says than what Vl Mark
        says.
        > I cannot understand how such a dissonance between those two
        hierarchs
        > when speaking in public under the eyes of the whole world is
        > tolearted by the Synod, regarding such important matters.
        >
        > One thing I do not understand is Vl Gavriil saying that he hopes
        the
        > rapprochement will not cause a schism in the ROCOR. Is ROCOR (V)
        not
        > a schsim any longer? Or was it about arianism?
        >
        > If indeed, the ROCOR does not consider the MP as being her mother
        > Church, why allow the MP making statements implying that the ROCOR
        > does?
        >
        > In God,
        >
        > V. Kozyreff
        >
        > http://www.gazeta.ru/2003/12/19/intervjumitr.shtml
        >
        > Some of Vl Gavriil's statements (approximately):
        >
        > – We consider ourselves as being the free voice of the Russian
        > church.
        > – The membership of the MP in the ecumenical movement is
        > unacceptable.
        > – We have never called the MP our mother church because it has
        > not given us birth.
        > – Even if the iron curtain has fallen, we cannot just forget
        > the questions that have separated us.
        > – It does not mean that we are ready for eucharistic communion.
        > – A large part of the Church is against the union with the MP.
        > – We hope that the rapprochement with the MP will not cause a
        > schism (sic).
        > – In our mind, we have the problem of being swallowed
        > – A significant part of the Church looks negatively at the
        > union because of past collaboration with the KGB and the hierarchs
        > having collaborated being still in place.
        > – One might speak about our autonomy being acknowledged by the
        > MP, but not being received from it.
        >
        >
        >
        > Òåêñò: Ïàâåë Êîðîáîâ («Êîììåðñàíòú»), ñïåöèàëüíî äëÿ «Ãàçåòû.Ru»
        > Ôîòî: www.stxenia.ca
        >
        > Â ýêñêëþçèâíîì èíòåðâüþ «Ãàçåòå.Ru» ñåêðåòàðü Àðõèåðåéñêîãî ñèíîäà
        > ÐÏÖÇ åïèñêîï Ìàíõýòòåíñêèé Ãàâðèèë ðàññêàçàë, ÷òî ìåøàåò ñêîðîìó
        > îáúåäèíåíèþ Ðóññêîé ïðàâîñëàâíîé öåðêâè.
        >
        > – Âàøå ïðåîñâÿùåíñòâî, íà äíÿõ çàêîí÷èëñÿ Àðõèåðåéñêèé ñîáîð,
        > êîòîðûé äîëæåí áûë ðàññìîòðåòü âîïðîñ ñáëèæåíèÿ Ðóññêîé
        ïðàâîñëàâíîé
        > öåðêâè çà ðóáåæîì (ÐÏÖÇ) ñ Ðóññêîé ïðàâîñëàâíîé öåðêîâüþ
        Ìîñêîâñêîãî
        > ïàòðèàðõàòà (ÐÏÖ ÌÏ). ×òî ðåøèë ñîáîð?
        >
        > Ýêóìåíèçì, ñåðãèàíñòâî, åâõàðèñòè÷åñêîå îáùåíèå
        > Ýêóìåíè÷åñêîå äâèæåíèå, ýêóìåíèçì (îò ãðå÷. oikumene – îáèòàåìûé
        ìèð,
        > Âñåëåííàÿ) – äâèæåíèå õðèñòèàíñêèõ öåðêâåé çà óñòðàíåíèå
        > ðàçîáù¸ííîñòè ìåæäó íèìè è ñïëî÷åíèå öåðêîâíûõ ñèë â ìåæäóíàðîäíîì
        > ìàñøòàáå. Âîçíèêëî ïî èíèöèàòèâå ïðîòåñòàíòñêèõ öåðêâåé ÑØÀ è
        > Çàïàäíîé Åâðîïû â íà÷àëå ÕÕ...
        >
        > – ß äóìàþ, ÷òî ñáëèæåíèå äîëæíî èäòè ïîñòåïåííî. Íàì íåîáõîäèì
        äèàëîã
        > äëÿ âûÿñíåíèÿ íåêîòîðûõ ïðåãðàä, êîòîðûå ðàçäåëÿþò íàñ è ïî ñåé
        äåíü.
        > Ïîýòîìó Ñîáîðîì íàçíà÷åíà ñïåöèàëüíàÿ êîìèññèÿ. Îíà äîëæíà áóäåò
        > âñòðåòèòüñÿ ñ êîìèññèåé Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèè, êîòîðàÿ, êàê ÿ
        > ïîíèìàþ, áóäåò ñîçäàíà 27 äåêàáðÿ íà çàñåäàíèè Ñâÿùåííîãî ñèíîäà.
        > Ïåðâàÿ âñòðå÷à êîìèññèé, ñêîðåå âñåãî, áóäåò îçíàêîìèòåëüíîé – íàì
        > íàäî áóäåò ïîçíàêîìèòüñÿ ñ òåìè âîïðîñàìè, êîòîðûå ìû ïîñòàâèì äëÿ
        > íàëàæèâàíèÿ áóäóùåãî äèàëîãà.
        >
        > – Êàêèå âîïðîñû áóäåò ðåøàòü êîìèññèÿ?
        >
        > – ß äóìàþ, ýòè âîïðîñû íå èçìåíèëèñü: ñåðãèàíñòâî è ýêóìåíèçì.
        > Íàïðèìåð, ìû áóäåì ãîâîðèòü î òîì, ÷òî ÐÏÖ ÌÏ ÿâëÿåòñÿ ÷ëåíîì
        > Âñåìèðíîãî ñîâåòà öåðêâåé (ÂÑÖ), ÷òî íà íàø âçãëÿä ñîâåðøåííî
        > íåäîïóñòèìî.
        >
        > – Âñå ëè àðõèåðåè âûñêàçàëèñü íà Ñîáîðå çà ñáëèæåíèå ÐÏÖÇ è ÐÏÖ ÌÏ
        > èëè áûëè êàêèå-òî äðóãèå ìíåíèÿ?
        >
        > – Åñòåñòâåííî, áûëè ðàçíûå ìíåíèÿ. Òåì íå ìåíåå, âñå àðõèåðåè
        > ñîãëàñíû â îäíîì: íåîáõîäèìî è ñîâåðøåííî íåâðåäíî áûëî áû ñåé÷àñ
        > íà÷àòü ïðîöåññ äèàëîãà è êàêèõ-òî äîáðûõ âçàèìîîòíîøåíèé. Ýòî íå
        > çíà÷èò, åñòåñòâåííî, ÷òî ìû áóäåì â ñêîðîì áóäóùåì îáúåäèíÿòüñÿ.
        Ýòî
        > íå çíà÷èò, ÷òî ó íàñ íà÷íåòñÿ åâõàðèñòè÷åñêîå îáùåíèå. Ýòîò
        ïðîöåññ,
        > ìîæåò áûòü, çàéìåò åùå ìíîãî âðåìåíè, ïîêà ìû ðåøèì ïîñòàâëåííûå
        > âîïðîñû, åñëè âîîáùå èõ ðåøèì. Íî ìû ìîæåì íà÷àòü äèàëîã. Ýòî,
        > êñòàòè, îòìåòèë è ñàì ïàòðèàðõ Àëåêñèé II, êîãäà íàøà äåëåãàöèÿ
        áûëà
        > â Ðîññèè. Îí ñêàçàë, ÷òî âîïðîñ åâõàðèñòè÷åñêîãî îáùåíèÿ íå ìîæåò
        > ñåé÷àñ îáñóæäàòüñÿ, ïîêà ìû íå âûÿñíèëè òå ïðîáëåìû, êîòîðûå ó íàñ
        > íàêîïèëèñü.
        >
        > – À îáñóæäàëè ëè íà Ñîáîðå âîïðîñ î âîçìîæíîé ôîðìå îáúåäèíåíèÿ
        ÐÏÖÇ
        > ñ ÐÏÖ ÌÏ? Êàêàÿ, íà âàø âçãëÿä, ìîãëà áû áûòü ôîðìà?
        >
        > – Òðóäíî îòâåòèòü íà ýòîò âîïðîñ. Ïåðåä Àðõèåðåéñêèì ñîáîðîì ïðîøëî
        > Âñåçàðóáåæíîå ïàñòûðñêîå ñîâåùàíèå, è ýòîò âîïðîñ, åñòåñòâåííî, áûë
        > íà íåì ãëàâíûì. Êîíå÷íî, áûëî ïðåäñòàâëåíî ìíîãî ðàçíûõ ìíåíèé è
        > çíà÷èòåëüíàÿ ÷àñòü ó÷àñòíèêîâ ñîâåùàíèÿ âûñêàçûâàëà ñâîè âîëíåíèÿ
        ïî
        > ïîâîäó ñêîðîãî îáúåäèíåíèÿ. Ïî÷åìó îíè âûñêàçûâàëè îïàñåíèÿ? Äà
        > ïîòîìó, ÷òî äëÿ íèõ, êàê è äëÿ çíà÷èòåëüíîé ÷àñòè íàøåé ïàñòâû,
        > àêòóàëüíû è ïî ñåé äåíü âîïðîñû ýêóìåíèçìà è ñåðãèàíñòâà. À ÷òî
        > êàñàåòñÿ ñáëèæåíèÿ, òî ÿ äóìàþ, ÷òî âñå åãî æåëàþò. Íî îíî äîëæíî
        > áûòü îñíîâàíî íà îáùèõ è ïðàâèëüíûõ ïðèíöèïàõ, à íå ïðîñòî
        > ñêàçàíî, «äàâàéòå âñå çàáóäåì è ïåðå÷åðêíåì íàøó èñòîðèþ». Íàøà
        > öåðêîâü âñåãäà î÷åíü ñòðîãî îòíîñèëàñü ê ýòèì âîïðîñàì.
        >
        > – Êàêîâà áûëà öåëü Âñåçàðóáåæíîãî ñîâåùàíèÿ? Áûë ëè ýòî
        > êîíñóëüòàòèâíûé ñîâåò, ñ ïîìîùüþ êîòîðîãî ìîæíî áûëî óçíàòü ìíåíèå
        > äóõîâåíñòâà ïî ïîâîäó âîçìîæíîãî îáúåäèíåíèÿ?
        >
        > – Äà, ìû õîòåëè óñëûøàòü íàñòðîåíèÿ íàøåé ïàñòâû, à îíî ïåðåäàåòñÿ
        > ÷åðåç íàøèõ êëèðèêîâ. Ìû õîòåëè óçíàòü, êàê ëþäè îòíîñÿòñÿ ê
        âîïðîñó
        > âîçìîæíîãî â áóäóùåì îáúåäèíåíèÿ.
        >
        > – Îòíîøåíèå äóõîâåíñòâà ê îáúåäèíåíèþ ïîëîæèòåëüíîå?
        >
        > – Íåò, êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë, áûëè òå, êòî âûñêàçûâàëèñü ïîëîæèòåëüíî,
        íî
        > çíà÷èòåëüíàÿ ÷àñòü âûñêàçûâàëàñü î÷åíü îñòîðîæíî, ÿ áû äàæå ñêàçàë
        > îòðèöàòåëüíî, â îòíîøåíèè îáúåäèíåíèÿ. Ìíîãèå äàæå âûðàæàëè
        íåäîâåðèå
        > Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèè, ãäå îñòàëîñü åùå íåìàëî àðõèåðååâ, êîòîðûå â
        > ñâîå âðåìÿ äîëæíû áûëè ñîòðóäíè÷àòü ñ ÊÃÁ. È òàê êàê ýòè èåðàðõè
        âñå
        > åùå îñòàþòñÿ íà ñâîèõ ìåñòàõ, òî ìíîãèå íàøè áàòþøêè âûñêàçûâàëè
        > îïàñåíèÿ ïî ïîâîäó âîçìîæíîñòè íûíåøíåãî îáúåäèíåíèÿ. Íî áûëè è òå,
        > êòî âûñêàçûâàë ñîâåðøåííî ïðîòèâîïîëîæíîå ìíåíèå, ÷òî, íàîáîðîò,
        > âðåìÿ óæå íàçðåëî.
        >
        > – Îäèí èç ó÷àñòíèêîâ ñîâåùàíèÿ ðàññêàçàë ìíå, ÷òî â àäðåñ àðõèåðååâ
        > çâó÷àëà êðèòèêà çà òî, ÷òî ïðîöåññ ñáëèæåíèÿ ðàçâèâàåòñÿ òàê
        > ñòðåìèòåëüíî. Òàê ëè ýòî?
        >
        > – Äà, ñîâåðøåííî âåðíî. Ìíîãèå áûëè â íåäîóìåíèè îò òàêèõ òåìïîâ
        > íàøèõ ïåðåãîâîðîâ. Ýòî êàñàåòñÿ è ïîåçäêè íàøåé äåëåãàöèè â Ìîñêâó,
        è
        > ïðåäïîëàãàåìîãî âèçèòà ìèòðîïîëèòà ê ïàòðèàðõó. Â îáùåì, ýòî
        âûçûâàåò
        > íåêîòîðîå âîëíåíèå. Ìíîãèå ñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî íóæíî ïîäõîäèòü ê ýòîìó
        áîëåå
        > îñòîðîæíî è ïîñòåïåííî.
        >
        > – Îäíîé èç ãëàâíûõ òåì Ñîáîðà áûë âîïðîñ î ïîåçäêå ìèòðîïîëèòà
        Ëàâðà
        > â íà÷àëå ãîäà â Ìîñêâó. Îäîáðèëè ëè àðõèåðåè ýòîò âèçèò?
        >
        > – Áîëüøàÿ ÷àñòü îäîáðèëà, õîòÿ è íå âñå. Íî âîïðîñ î ìåñòå è
        âðåìåíè
        > âèçèòà áóäóò ðåøàòü îáå êîìèññèè ïîñëå Ðîæäåñòâà.
        >
        > – À êàêîâà ïðåäïîëàãàåìàÿ öåëü ïðèåçäà ìèòðîïîëèòà Ëàâðà â Ðîññèþ.
        > Ðàíüøå ãîâîðèëîñü, ÷òî ìèòðîïîëèò äîëæåí ïîäïèñàòü ñ ïàòðèàðõîì
        íåêîå
        > ñîãëàøåíèå?
        >
        > – Íè÷åãî ïîäïèñûâàòü îíè ñåé÷àñ íå áóäóò. Åñëè âèçèò ñîñòîèòñÿ, òî
        îí
        > áóäåò òîëüêî îçíàêîìèòåëüíûì.
        >
        > – Çàðóáåæíàÿ öåðêîâü ñîçäàâàëàñü â 20-å ãîäû, è åå êîíå÷íàÿ öåëü
        âñå-
        > òàêè îáúåäèíåíèå ñ ìàòåðüþ-öåðêîâüþ â Ðîññèè. Íà âàø âçãëÿä, êîãäà
        > ýòî ìîæåò ïðîèçîéòè?
        >
        > – Âî-ïåðâûõ, ìû íèêîãäà íå ñ÷èòàëè Ìîñêîâñêóþ ïàòðèàðõèþ ñâîåé
        > ìàòåðüþ, ïîòîìó ÷òî, êàê ãîâîðèòñÿ, îíà íàñ íå ðîäèëà. Âî-âòîðûõ,
        > ìîæåò áûòü, ìû è ÿâëÿåìñÿ âðåìåííîé ñòðóêòóðîé, íî, òåì íå ìåíåå,
        ìû
        > ñ÷èòàëè è ñ÷èòàåì ñåáÿ ñâîáîäíûì ãîëîñîì ðóññêîé öåðêâè. È äàæå
        > ñåé÷àñ, êîãäà æåëåçíûé çàíàâåñ ïàë è íàñòóïèëà ñâîáîäà, ìû âñå
        ðàâíî
        > ñ÷èòàåì, ÷òî òå âîïðîñû, êîòîðûå íàñ ðàçäåëÿþò, íå ìîãóò áûòü
        ïðîñòî
        > çàáûòû. Ìû íå ìîæåì ïîéòè íà êîìïðîìèññ ñî ñâîåé ñîâåñòüþ, ñî ñâîèì
        > ïðîøëûì, ïîòîìó ÷òî òîãäà ìû ïåðå÷åðêíåì íàøó èñòîðèþ. Äàé Áîã,
        ÷òîáû
        > êîãäà-íèáóäü öåðêîâü ñòàëà åäèíîé. Íî ìû òàêæå äîëæíû ïîíèìàòü è
        > âàæíîñòü ñâîáîäíîãî è áåñêîìïðîìèññíîãî ãîëîñà çàðóáåæíîé öåðêâè.
        > Ïîýòîìó òðóäíî îòâåòèòü íà âàø âîïðîñ, êîãäà ìîæåò íàçðåòü âðåìÿ
        äëÿ
        > îáúåäèíåíèÿ.
        >
        > – À âû íå áîèòåñü, ÷òî îáúåäèíåíèå ìîæåò âíåñòè ðàñêîë â ðÿäû
        > çàðóáåæíîé öåðêâè?
        >
        > – Ìû íàäååìñÿ, ÷òî ýòîãî íå áóäåò. Äëÿ ýòîãî ìû è ñîçâàëè
        ïàñòûðñêîå
        > ñîâåùàíèå, ÷òîáû äàòü âîçìîæíîñòü äóõîâåíñòâó âûñêàçàòüñÿ îò ëèöà
        > ñâîèõ ïðèõîäîâ. Åñòåñòâåííî, íèêîìó íå æåëàòåëåí ðàñêîë, è ìû áóäåì
        > äåëàòü âñå âîçìîæíîå, ÷òîáû ýòîãî íå ïðîèçîøëî. Ìû ìàëåíüêàÿ, ïî
        > ñðàâíåíèþ ñ Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèåé, öåðêîâü. Ó íàñ âñåãî 15
        > àðõèåðååâ, à ó íèõ – 150. È ëþäè áîÿòñÿ ëèøèòüñÿ ñâîáîäû, êîòîðàÿ ó
        > íàñ åñòü. Îíè áîÿòñÿ, ÷òî ìû ìîæåì áûòü ïîãëîùåíû Ìîñêîâñêîé
        > ïàòðèàðõèåé.
        >
        > – À òîãäà íà ÷òî âû ãîòîâû ïîéòè, åñëè òàê áîèòåñü ïîãëîùåíèÿ?
        >
        > – Ïðîáëåìà ïîãëîùåíèÿ ó âñåõ íà óìå, íî ìû ïîíèìàåì, ÷òî ñåé÷àñ
        > ìîæåì, ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå, íàëàäèòü äîáðûå îòíîøåíèÿ. Òî, ÷òî íàøà
        > äåëåãàöèÿ ïîñåòèëà Ìîñêâó, ìíîãèõ, ìîæåò áûòü, è ñìóòèëî. Íî, ñ
        > äðóãîé ñòîðîíû, ýòî äàëî âîçìîæíîñòü ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿì ÐÏÖÇ
        > ïîçíàêîìèòüñÿ ñ ïàòðèàðõîì è ÷ëåíàìè Ñâÿùåííîãî ñèíîäà, à òàêæå
        > ïîêàçàòü íàøó äîáðóþ âîëþ. È ýòî íàñ íè ê ÷åìó íå îáÿçûâàåò – ìû
        > ïðîñòî ïîêàçàëè, ÷òî ãîòîâû èäòè íàâñòðå÷ó.
        >
        > – Êàê Âû îòíîñèòåñü ê âûñêàçûâàíèÿì, ÷òî åñëè ïðîèçîéäåò
        îáúåäèíåíèå,
        > òî Çàðóáåæíàÿ öåðêîâü äîëæíà ïîëó÷èòü ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíîñòü,
        àâòîêåôàëèþ?
        >
        > – Ìû åñòü è îñòàåìñÿ àâòîíîìíûìè. Ïîýòîìó ãîâîðèòü î êàêîé-òî
        > àâòîíîìèè èëè î ïîëó÷åíèè åå – íå ñîâñåì ïðàâèëüíî. Ýòî òîãäà áû
        > îçíà÷àëî, ÷òî ìû ïðèçíàåì ãëàâåíñòâî Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèè. Ìû áû
        > òîãäà íàçûâàëè åå ìàòåðüþ-öåðêîâüþ. À ìû åå òàê íå íàçûâàåì. Îíà
        > ÷àñòü ðóññêîé öåðêâè è ìû ñåáÿ ñ÷èòàåì ÷àñòüþ ðóññêîé öåðêâè.
        Ïîýòîìó
        > åñëè ãîâîðèòü îá àâòîíîìèè, òî íóæíî ãîâîðèòü î ïðèçíàíèè íàøåé
        > àâòîíîìèè ñî ñòîðîíû Ìîñêîâñêîé ïàòðèàðõèè. À ïîëó÷åíèå, ÿ äóìàþ,
        > èñêëþ÷åíî. Ìû è òàê, ïîâòîðþñü, óæå àâòîíîìíû.
        >
        > 22 ÄÅÊÀÁÐß 10:06
      • V. Boitchenko
        Mr. Kozyrev, It sounds as if you are repeating yourself over and over again. Don t you ever get tired. We understand your position. You do not want us to unite
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 27, 2003
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          Mr. Kozyrev,

          It sounds as if you are repeating yourself over and over again. Don't you ever get tired. We understand your position. You do not want us to unite with the MP (even though you have separated yourself from us). The more you say the less convincing your argument seems to be. I am sure that the majority on this list at this point simply delete your messages without reading. I looked at your post below only briefly and see the same rhetoric for who knows what time. Are you writing to yourself?

          viacheslav

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: vkozyreff
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 4:24 AM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: The free voice of the Russian church


          Dear List,

          A few comments about Vl Gavriil's declarations.

          - We consider ourselves as being the free voice of the Russian
          church.
          This implies that the MP is not. What kind of union are we talking
          about, with an organisation that claims to be free but is not? If the
          MP is not free, with whom is the ROCOR talking? With the MP's master?
          If a "Church" is not free, is it the Church? Is the Church allowed to
          negotiate with an entity which is the master of an organisation that
          claims to be the Church but is not and thus deceives the believers?
          When Vl Gavriil says "We consider ourselves as being the free voice
          of the Russian church", who is "we"? Is it the entire ROCOR? Does the
          entire ROCOR consider that the MP is not free? Is Vl Mark of that
          opinion as well?

          - A significant part of the Church looks negatively at the
          union because of past collaboration with the KGB and the hierarchs
          having collaborated being still in place.
          Is this concept understandable? Is this going to be ignored by
          letting the majority decide anyway (a kind of updated "sobornost")?

          - The membership of the MP in the ecumenical movement is
          unacceptable.
          If so, why does Vl Lavr say that there is no obstacle any more for
          the union? Does the MP give any sign in declarations or in deeds that
          it is going to change course in this matter?

          - We have never called the MP our mother church because it has
          not given us birth.
          Can the ROCOR unite with an MP that claims to be the mother church,
          while the ROCOR claims it is not? Can there be a compromise between
          being the mother and not being the mother? Can there be a compropmise
          in matters of faith? Do we hope the MP will renounce its claim? Do we
          hope the ROCOR will accept it after all? Or will this just be
          ignored? If the MP is not the "mother church", is it really the
          Patriarchate? If it is the Patriarchate, is it not really the mother
          Church? Is this not an essential difference, and can we predict that
          it will be resolved within a defined time period?

          - One might speak about our autonomy being acknowledged by the
          MP, but not being received from it.
          If so, who gave the MP its autonomy? Patriarch Tikhon? If yes, than
          the MP is the mother church.

          - In our mind, we have the problem of being swallowed
          Is this not the simplest and most operational answer to all of the
          above and further questions?

          - Even if the iron curtain has fallen, we cannot just forget
          the questions that have separated us.
          Why then agree not to mention any longer the differences which may be
          an obstacle to a reunion and why take the latter for granted? Why
          claim that sergianism has gone if the MP is still not the free voice
          of the Church and why claim that the fall of communism erases the sin
          of sergianism that has been committed and is being called "a bold
          step"?

          - It does not mean that we are ready for eucharistic communion.
          The main plans for reunion will nevertheless be confirmed at the time
          of a personal meeting in January 2004 between the patriarch and Met.
          Lavr, who should sign an agreement about the basis for unity.
          According to the patriarch, the question of the restoration of
          eucharistic fellowship could be resolved within a year, and the
          priests of ROCOR will be able to concelebrate and laity will commune
          together.
          http://fb02.uni-muenster.de/fb02/oekfried/anlagen/abt2/03112701.htm



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vkozyreff
          Dear Viacheslav, I have not separated myself from you, I just happened to think as Vl Gavriil does, but my bishop did not. 16 I repeat: Let no one take me for
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 27, 2003
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            Dear Viacheslav,

            I have not separated myself from you, I just happened to think as Vl
            Gavriil does, but my bishop did not.

            16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then
            receive me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little
            boasting. 17In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the
            Lord would, but as a fool. (2 Corinthians 11)

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "V. Boitchenko"
            <venceslav@s...> wrote:
            > Mr. Kozyrev,
            >
            > It sounds as if you are repeating yourself over and over again.
            Don't you ever get tired. We understand your position. You do not
            want us to unite with the MP (even though you have separated yourself
            from us). The more you say the less convincing your argument seems to
            be. I am sure that the majority on this list at this point simply
            delete your messages without reading. I looked at your post below
            only briefly and see the same rhetoric for who knows what time. Are
            you writing to yourself?
            >
            > viacheslav
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: vkozyreff
            > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 4:24 AM
            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: The free voice of the Russian church
            >
            >
            > Dear List,
            >
            > A few comments about Vl Gavriil's declarations.
            >
            > - We consider ourselves as being the free voice of the
            Russian
            > church.
            > This implies that the MP is not. What kind of union are we
            talking
            > about, with an organisation that claims to be free but is not? If
            the
            > MP is not free, with whom is the ROCOR talking? With the MP's
            master?
            > If a "Church" is not free, is it the Church? Is the Church
            allowed to
            > negotiate with an entity which is the master of an organisation
            that
            > claims to be the Church but is not and thus deceives the
            believers?
            > When Vl Gavriil says "We consider ourselves as being the free
            voice
            > of the Russian church", who is "we"? Is it the entire ROCOR? Does
            the
            > entire ROCOR consider that the MP is not free? Is Vl Mark of that
            > opinion as well?
            >
            > - A significant part of the Church looks negatively at the
            > union because of past collaboration with the KGB and the hierarchs
            > having collaborated being still in place.
            > Is this concept understandable? Is this going to be ignored by
            > letting the majority decide anyway (a kind of
            updated "sobornost")?
            >
            > - The membership of the MP in the ecumenical movement is
            > unacceptable.
            > If so, why does Vl Lavr say that there is no obstacle any more
            for
            > the union? Does the MP give any sign in declarations or in deeds
            that
            > it is going to change course in this matter?
            >
            > - We have never called the MP our mother church because it
            has
            > not given us birth.
            > Can the ROCOR unite with an MP that claims to be the mother
            church,
            > while the ROCOR claims it is not? Can there be a compromise
            between
            > being the mother and not being the mother? Can there be a
            compropmise
            > in matters of faith? Do we hope the MP will renounce its claim?
            Do we
            > hope the ROCOR will accept it after all? Or will this just be
            > ignored? If the MP is not the "mother church", is it really the
            > Patriarchate? If it is the Patriarchate, is it not really the
            mother
            > Church? Is this not an essential difference, and can we predict
            that
            > it will be resolved within a defined time period?
            >
            > - One might speak about our autonomy being acknowledged by
            the
            > MP, but not being received from it.
            > If so, who gave the MP its autonomy? Patriarch Tikhon? If yes,
            than
            > the MP is the mother church.
            >
            > - In our mind, we have the problem of being swallowed
            > Is this not the simplest and most operational answer to all of
            the
            > above and further questions?
            >
            > - Even if the iron curtain has fallen, we cannot just forget
            > the questions that have separated us.
            > Why then agree not to mention any longer the differences which
            may be
            > an obstacle to a reunion and why take the latter for granted? Why
            > claim that sergianism has gone if the MP is still not the free
            voice
            > of the Church and why claim that the fall of communism erases the
            sin
            > of sergianism that has been committed and is being called "a bold
            > step"?
            >
            > - It does not mean that we are ready for eucharistic
            communion.
            > The main plans for reunion will nevertheless be confirmed at the
            time
            > of a personal meeting in January 2004 between the patriarch and
            Met.
            > Lavr, who should sign an agreement about the basis for unity.
            > According to the patriarch, the question of the restoration of
            > eucharistic fellowship could be resolved within a year, and the
            > priests of ROCOR will be able to concelebrate and laity will
            commune
            > together.
            > http://fb02.uni-
            muenster.de/fb02/oekfried/anlagen/abt2/03112701.htm
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • goossir
            Dear Mr Boitchenko, It is the silence opposed to Vladimir Kozyreff s questions that is frightening. Actually, everything is quite simple: while millions of
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 27, 2003
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              Dear Mr Boitchenko,

              It is the silence opposed to Vladimir Kozyreff's questions that is
              frightening.
              Actually, everything is quite simple: while millions of Christians
              were persecuted, killed, Ridiguer and his acolytes were making a
              career. Have you ever asked yourself why? Asking is replying.

              My grandfather was shot by the bolsheviks, my grandmother died of
              hunger because of their rule, several of my uncles and aunts
              disappeared in the camps. I am not the only one whose family
              suffered so much. I suppose, you have such examples in your own
              family as so many of us who had the chance to survive the communist
              holocaust. And in the meantime Ridiguer was climbing, quietly, the
              hierarchical ladder of this Moscow Patriarchate created by Stalin!

              If Ridiguer knelled on his knees in front of the Russian people to
              ask forgiveness and he kissed the hands of the ROCOR bishops (and
              not the reverse) then - YES - time would be ripe for taking them
              back in the mist of our Holy Church and be of one mind and one heart.

              But when I saw the pictures of ROCOR bishops in the luxurious
              premises of Ridiguer's residence, when I saw Vl Hilarion kissing the
              hand of that man, I thanked God that they were not representing me
              anymore. I was not part of that treason, but my heart cried for
              those who were thus betrayed and for those bishops who gave up to
              mammon.

              I do not think that V. Kozyreff writes for himself, as you are
              mocking him, but rather out of duty for the memory of the millions
              who suffered in the hands of people who made Ridiguer's carreer.
              Reading your reply to his mail, make Vladimir look like Don
              Quichotte, fighting against windmills – the windmills of betrayal.

              Please, make sure Mr Boitchenko that I do not want to hurt you
              personally or anyone but I felt this had to be said.

              I know that Christ's Truth will prevail, but I pray that it will be
              soon.

              Irina Pahlen
            • Andrei Troufanov
              Archbishop Ovruchskiy Vissarion (MP) does continue to consider ROCOR(L) by raskol nicheskoy church? ... Archbishop Ovruchskiy and Korosten Vissarion (MP) does
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 27, 2003
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                Archbishop Ovruchskiy Vissarion (MP) does continue to consider
                ROCOR(L) by raskol'nicheskoy church?
                ----
                Archbishop Ovruchskiy and Korosten' Vissarion (MP) does not leave the
                attempts to select in ROCOR(L) Piously- Pokrovskiy temple in the city
                of the raspberries of Zhitomir region, reports "herald IPTS".
                On the indication of archbishop vissariong around the city was unstuck
                the leaflet over his signature of the following content:

                Respected orthodox to malinchane!
                I lead to your information the following. The former priest of Piously- Pokrovskiy of temple
                (constructing in the center - to pl. of cathedral) g. of Vasiliy demchenko's raspberries
                by our edict of 22 September, 2001, for the disturbance of oath, highwayman,
                immoral behavior is forbidden in the service, and he passed into the dissentient church,
                whose center is located in the United States of America.
                We resemble To you: if it dares to somewhere cross children, to accomplish burials, requiems,
                to bless Easter, etc., the heaviest sin will take per capita, and you it will deceive because
                its actions are not real, do not have the rescue blessing force [... ] I it is grateful to you
                for the solid desire to be in the rescue canonical church which in the Ukraine it heads
                Blazhenneyshiy Vladimir, metropolitan kiyevskiy and after sowing the Ukraine, Predstoyatel' UPTS.
                4 in this region I have a blessings from it and from the sacred synod of our church to serve,
                to open new arrivals and to assign to the pastoral service of priests...
                It is gratifying to see that you are accurate to united holy faith and church,
                in which were crossed, escaped themselves your grandfathers and great-grandfathers,
                and you do not desire to follow the forbidden priest of Vasiliy demchenko,
                who tries to take away some into the jurisdiction of dissentient church with the center in THE USA.
                At the meeting on 2 November this year in g. to raspberries near the constructed church in the quantity
                more than 350 people you voted for that in order to be in the canonical church and not to allow
                forbidden Vasiliy demchenko into the constructed temple.
                About 10 people voted for the desire to be with forbidden Vasiliy demchenko.
                You and many businessmen sacrificed money to the temple with the hope constructed
                for the Ukrainian orthodox church, that in it will serve the canonical priest,
                but the not forbidden dissentient. And you in the right not to allow it into this temple
                because of that it does not have from the church of blessings to the priestly service.
                Respected orthodox to malinchane! Toward this arrival is directed the priest Svyatoslav,
                with whom you have canonical prav.zh to accomplish divine service and to be occupied
                by missionary activity, to finish building the temple, which on my request, much helped
                the people deputy of the Ukraine V.N. Of satsyuk. We believe that from this kraten'kogo our notice
                you will draw for yourselves a correct conclusion and formed tumor on the tele- church,
                on the favor Of bozhiyey, it will be removed, and the orthodox matter in g. to raspberries will not suffer,
                as did not suffer apostolic service from traitor united among them, Judas iskariotskiy.
                Archbishop ovruchskiy and Korostenskiy + A.Vissarion Furthermore,
                on the commission of district administration, the documents of community
                checks the chief of the committee of domestic policy L.G. Shklyarskaya.
                In this case, as report the parishioners of community,
                mrs. Shklyarskaya oskorblyaet RPTSZ(L) and he persuades the colleagues of church
                to be joined to the "mothers of church". As the answer more than 50 representatives
                of community arrived at its office in order to express its
                faithfulness ROCOR(L) to the director of the temple Is. Vasiliy demchenko.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... JRS: This was said in regard to a parish church in his own diocese, that had been taken over by hostile people, who identified themselves with ROCOR. Note
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 27, 2003
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                  Regarding:

                  > Archbishop Ovruchskiy Vissarion (MP) does continue to consider
                  > ROCOR(L) by raskol'nicheskoy church?
                  > ----

                  JRS: This was said in regard to a parish church in his own diocese,
                  that had been taken over by hostile people, who identified themselves
                  with ROCOR.

                  Note that when similar attempts have been made to take parishes of our
                  own over to the MP, harsh words have also been uttered!

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • Andrei Troufanov
                  g Dear Mr Boitchenko, g It is the silence opposed to Vladimir Kozyreff s questions that is g frightening. g Actually, everything is quite simple: while
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 27, 2003
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                    g> Dear Mr Boitchenko,

                    g> It is the silence opposed to Vladimir Kozyreff's questions that is
                    g> frightening.
                    g> Actually, everything is quite simple: while millions of Christians
                    g> were persecuted, killed, Ridiguer and his acolytes were making a
                    g> career.  Have you ever asked yourself why?  Asking is replying.

                    g> My grandfather was shot by the bolsheviks, my grandmother died of
                    g> hunger because of their rule, several of my uncles and aunts
                    g> disappeared in the camps.  I am not the only one whose family
                    g> suffered so much.  I suppose, you have such examples in your own
                    g> family as so many of us who had the chance to survive the communist
                    g> holocaust.  And in the meantime Ridiguer was climbing, quietly, the
                    g> hierarchical ladder of this Moscow Patriarchate created by Stalin!

                    g> If Ridiguer knelled on his knees in front of the Russian people to
                    g> ask forgiveness and he kissed the hands of the ROCOR bishops (and
                    g> not the reverse) then - YES - time would be ripe for taking them
                    g> back in the mist of our Holy Church and be of one mind and one heart.

                    g> But when I saw the pictures of ROCOR bishops in the luxurious
                    g> premises of Ridiguer's residence, when I saw Vl Hilarion kissing the
                    g> hand of that man, I thanked God that they were not representing me
                    g> anymore.  I was not part of that treason, but my heart cried for
                    g> those who were thus betrayed and for those bishops who gave up to
                    g> mammon.

                    g> I do not think that V. Kozyreff writes for himself, as you are
                    g> mocking him, but rather out of duty for the memory of the millions
                    g> who suffered in the hands of people who made Ridiguer's carreer. 
                    g> Reading your reply to his mail, make Vladimir look like Don
                    g> Quichotte, fighting against windmills – the windmills of betrayal.

                    g> Please, make sure Mr Boitchenko that I do not want to hurt you
                    g> personally or anyone but I felt this had to be said.

                    g> I know that Christ's Truth will prevail, but I pray that it will be
                    g> soon.

                    g> Irina Pahlen

                    Thank you, irina for this words!

                    --

                    unworthy priest Andrei
                    Bari
                    Italy
                  • Andrei Troufanov
                    Hello Fr., Saturday, December 27, 2003, 11:20:13 PM, you wrote: ... FJRS JRS: This was said in regard to a parish church in his own diocese, FJRS that had
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 27, 2003
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                      Hello Fr.,

                      Saturday, December 27, 2003, 11:20:13 PM, you wrote:

                      FJRS> Regarding:

                      >> Archbishop Ovruchskiy Vissarion (MP) does continue to consider
                      >> ROCOR(L) by raskol'nicheskoy church?
                      >>  ----

                      FJRS> JRS: This was said in regard to a parish church in his own diocese,
                      FJRS> that had been taken over by hostile people, who identified themselves
                      FJRS> with ROCOR.

                      FJRS> Note that when similar attempts have been made to take parishes of our
                      FJRS> own over to the MP, harsh words have also been uttered!

                      FJRS> In Christ
                      FJRS> Fr. John R. Shaw

                      Unimportantly in what connection these words were said,
                      it is important that for MP our church on the the previous
                      -"raskolniceskaja and American"

                      priest Andrey
                    • V. Boitchenko
                      Dear Irina, It seems fruitless to argue anything Mr. Kozyrev and others like him say in defense of their position (especially because they have nothing new to
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 27, 2003
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                        Dear Irina,

                        It seems fruitless to argue anything Mr. Kozyrev and others like him say in defense of their position
                        (especially because they have nothing new to say and we have heard it all by
                        now). I would only like to point out a few things.

                        >>Actually, everything is quite simple: while millions of Christians
                        >>were persecuted, killed, Ridiguer and his acolytes were making a
                        >>career. Have you ever asked yourself why? Asking is replying.

                        There is a legitimate concern in your words that many people (including
                        myself) will share with you. However, since I do not have sufficient
                        information and I am not in the position to judge the Patriarch (God forbid)
                        I will abstain from any opinion about worthiness of the Patriarch out of
                        fear to fall into temptation. The Canons say that unworthiness of a bishop
                        does not affect the mysteries. Regardless of what I think God will judge
                        justly. But if I wrongfully accuse the Patriarch then all of my efforts for
                        salvation are vain. It is useful to remember this especially during the
                        fasting season.

                        >>My grandfather was shot by the bolsheviks, my grandmother died of
                        >>hunger because of their rule, several of my uncles and aunts
                        >>disappeared in the camps. I am not the only one whose family
                        >>suffered so much. I suppose, you have such examples in your own
                        >>family as so many of us who had the chance to survive the communist
                        >>holocaust.

                        You are right that you are not the only one. My grandfather was also shot by
                        the Bolsheviks. What does it make me?


                        >>If Ridiguer knelled on his knees in front of the Russian people to
                        >>ask forgiveness and he kissed the hands of the ROCOR bishops (and
                        >>not the reverse) then - YES - time would be ripe for taking them
                        >>back in the mist of our Holy Church and be of one mind and one heart.

                        Listen to yourself. Who are you to say this? What sort of practice would
                        this be? How do you know what he has to ask forgiveness for? The Church
                        Abroad has never denied the Grace in the Mysteries in the MP and thus
                        Patriarch Alexius is valid bishop, and as such when he greets other bishops
                        (including the ROCOR) they kiss each other's hands. Besides, be realistic:
                        MP is the Russian Church in Russia recognized by all other Orthodox Churches
                        and commemorated by all Eastern Patriarchs. They do not need ROCOR to
                        realize their fullness. Their effort is an honest effort to heal the schism
                        caused by the circumstances. We (ROCOR) on the other hand are recognized
                        only by few and by our own definition we are "outside of Russia" and not the
                        Church of Russia. We need them more than they need us.

                        >>But when I saw the pictures of ROCOR bishops in the luxurious
                        >>premises of Ridiguer's residence, when I saw Vl Hilarion kissing the
                        >>hand of that man, I thanked God that they were not representing me
                        >>anymore.

                        Help you God. I hope you know what you are doing. However, since Mr. Kozyrev
                        and you are so hostile to ROCOR now that you have separated yourself from
                        it why should it be your concern what our hierarchs think?

                        >>I do not think that V. Kozyreff writes for himself, as you are
                        >>mocking him, but rather out of duty for the memory of the millions
                        >>who suffered in the hands of people who made Ridiguer's career.

                        I think Mr. Kozyrev should think about his own soul in the first place. God
                        will rest the souls of the martyrs. Church is not for politics.

                        >>Please, make sure Mr Boitchenko that I do not want to hurt you
                        >>personally or anyone but I felt this had to be said.
                        >>I know that Christ's Truth will prevail, but I pray that it will be
                        soon.

                        You are right in that. Truth will prevail. Communism has fallen and as St.
                        Seraphim had prophesized.

                        in XC,

                        viacheslav


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • goossir
                        Dear Viacheslav, Yes, I know, most people do not want this kind of discussions anymore, they prefer to discuss with a new, more exciting, challenging MP. They
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 28, 2003
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                          Dear Viacheslav,

                          Yes, I know, most people do not want this kind of discussions
                          anymore, they prefer to discuss with a new, more exciting,
                          challenging MP. They close their eyes and ears to clear evidence
                          that the MP has NOT changed. They prefer to swallow the MP's lies
                          and deceit than to listen to the calls of their once brother and
                          sisters in Christ. This is the long sorrowful story of humanity.
                          But we cannot say we did not know: several times the Holy
                          Scriptures, the Holy Fathers have warned us.

                          You write: "I will abstain from any opinion about worthiness of the
                          Patriarch out of fear to fall into temptation. The Canons say that
                          unworthiness of a bishop does not affect the mysteries. Regardless
                          of what I think God will judge justly. But if I wrongfully accuse
                          the Patriarch then all of my efforts for salvation are vain. It is
                          useful to remember this especially during the fasting season."

                          IP: Sorry, but this looks like sheer hypocrisy. You take refuge in
                          the: "Who am I to judge?"
                          When you see someone killed in front of your eyes, what would you
                          call the killer? Will you say: "I will abstain from any opinion,
                          etc ……?"

                          VB: You are right that you are not the only one. My grandfather was
                          also shot by the Bolsheviks. What does it make me? » »

                          That is your choice. For me, as a Christian I must forgive the
                          assassins and pray for the resting of their souls but I shall
                          certainly not kiss the hands of people who compromise with the
                          murderers.

                          VB: The Church Abroad has never denied the Grace in the Mysteries in
                          the MP and thus Patriarch Alexius is valid bishop, and as such when
                          he greets other bishops(including the ROCOR) they kiss each other's
                          hands.""

                          IP: What about the 1971 Declaration of the Synod regarding the non-
                          canonicity of the election of the patriarchs? I know some say
                          that "declaring someone non-canonical does not mean that he is not a
                          valid bishop". Well, I find this quite baffling. I am a simple
                          woman who understand nothing in obscure and contradicting rhetoric.
                          If you wish to explain to me how 1-1=1, then please do.
                          I have not seen Alexius kissing the hands of the ROCOR bishops –
                          perhaps I missed the picture. I speak only of what I have seen.

                          VB: MP is the Russian Church in Russia recognised by all other
                          Orthodox Churches and commemorated by all Eastern Patriarchs. They
                          do not need ROCOR to realize their fullness. Their effort is an
                          honest effort to heal the schism caused by the circumstances. We
                          (ROCOR) on the other hand are recognized only by few and by our own
                          definition we are "outside of Russia" and not the Church of Russia.
                          We need them more than they need us.

                          IP: So what? Catholicism is recognised by many more people and
                          they also do not need us to realise their "fullness". We lived for
                          about 80 years without the MP. We were free witnesses of the
                          truth. So why is ROCOR needing to lose its freedom and find all
                          sorts of compromise and rhetoric to join a patriarchate created by
                          Stalin? The Russian Church was persecuted, many were killed, some
                          went into the catacombs and the lucky ones escaped abroad. For this
                          they had an everlasting duty: to keep the Church pure and free and
                          return it to Russia – pure and free.

                          VB: Help you God. I hope you know what you are doing. However,
                          since Mr. Kozyrev and you are so hostile to ROCOR now that you have
                          separated yourself from it why should it be your concern what our
                          hierarchs think?

                          IP: Thank you. I think God helped me greatly in not letting me to
                          participate in this betrayal of His Church.
                          We are not hostile to ROCOR – on the contrary – we cry for her and
                          pray that her worldly temptations are rejected and that we are
                          united again. Do not forget we were brothers and even if the
                          brother has gone ashtray, he is still my brother.
                          Where do you find some honesty in healing the schism? Saying that
                          there was a schism between us is a voluntary deceit. How can there
                          ever be a schism between the MP created just before WWII by Stalin
                          and us who escaped the persecution inflicted by Stalin predecessors
                          and himself? What a nonsense! They created a false synagogue and
                          if there was one ounce of honesty in them, they should be the one,
                          running to us, recognising their error, and begging us to come back
                          to Russia to proclaim the Holy, Victorious Church.

                          By the way, why ROCOR bishops did not ask forgiveness for the harsh
                          words and treatment they had vis-à-vis Vladika Vitaly, their
                          Metropolite, and kiss His hand? Why do they refuse to heal this
                          schism?

                          Truly yours, in Christ

                          Irina Pahlen

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "V. Boitchenko"
                          <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                          > Dear Irina,
                          >
                          > It seems fruitless to argue anything Mr. Kozyrev and others like
                          him say in defense of their position
                          > (especially because they have nothing new to say and we have heard
                          it all by
                          > now). I would only like to point out a few things.
                          >
                          > >>Actually, everything is quite simple: while millions of
                          Christians
                          > >>were persecuted, killed, Ridiguer and his acolytes were making a
                          > >>career. Have you ever asked yourself why? Asking is replying.
                          >
                          > There is a legitimate concern in your words that many people
                          (including
                          > myself) will share with you. However, since I do not have
                          sufficient
                          > information and I am not in the position to judge the Patriarch
                          (God forbid)
                          > I will abstain from any opinion about worthiness of the Patriarch
                          out of
                          > fear to fall into temptation. The Canons say that unworthiness of
                          a bishop
                          > does not affect the mysteries. Regardless of what I think God will
                          judge
                          > justly. But if I wrongfully accuse the Patriarch then all of my
                          efforts for
                          > salvation are vain. It is useful to remember this especially
                          during the
                          > fasting season.
                          >
                          > >>My grandfather was shot by the bolsheviks, my grandmother died of
                          > >>hunger because of their rule, several of my uncles and aunts
                          > >>disappeared in the camps. I am not the only one whose family
                          > >>suffered so much. I suppose, you have such examples in your own
                          > >>family as so many of us who had the chance to survive the
                          communist
                          > >>holocaust.
                          >
                          > You are right that you are not the only one. My grandfather was
                          also shot by
                          > the Bolsheviks. What does it make me?
                          >
                          >
                          > >>If Ridiguer knelled on his knees in front of the Russian people
                          to
                          > >>ask forgiveness and he kissed the hands of the ROCOR bishops (and
                          > >>not the reverse) then - YES - time would be ripe for taking them
                          > >>back in the mist of our Holy Church and be of one mind and one
                          heart.
                          >
                          > Listen to yourself. Who are you to say this? What sort of practice
                          would
                          > this be? How do you know what he has to ask forgiveness for? The
                          Church
                          > Abroad has never denied the Grace in the Mysteries in the MP and
                          thus
                          > Patriarch Alexius is valid bishop, and as such when he greets
                          other bishops
                          > (including the ROCOR) they kiss each other's hands. Besides, be
                          realistic:
                          > MP is the Russian Church in Russia recognized by all other
                          Orthodox Churches
                          > and commemorated by all Eastern Patriarchs. They do not need ROCOR
                          to
                          > realize their fullness. Their effort is an honest effort to heal
                          the schism
                          > caused by the circumstances. We (ROCOR) on the other hand are
                          recognized
                          > only by few and by our own definition we are "outside of Russia"
                          and not the
                          > Church of Russia. We need them more than they need us.
                          >
                          > >>But when I saw the pictures of ROCOR bishops in the luxurious
                          > >>premises of Ridiguer's residence, when I saw Vl Hilarion kissing
                          the
                          > >>hand of that man, I thanked God that they were not representing
                          me
                          > >>anymore.
                          >
                          > Help you God. I hope you know what you are doing. However, since
                          Mr. Kozyrev
                          > and you are so hostile to ROCOR now that you have separated
                          yourself from
                          > it why should it be your concern what our hierarchs think?
                          >
                          > >>I do not think that V. Kozyreff writes for himself, as you are
                          > >>mocking him, but rather out of duty for the memory of the
                          millions
                          > >>who suffered in the hands of people who made Ridiguer's career.
                          >
                          > I think Mr. Kozyrev should think about his own soul in the first
                          place. God
                          > will rest the souls of the martyrs. Church is not for politics.
                          >
                          > >>Please, make sure Mr Boitchenko that I do not want to hurt you
                          > >>personally or anyone but I felt this had to be said.
                          > >>I know that Christ's Truth will prevail, but I pray that it will
                          be
                          > soon.
                          >
                          > You are right in that. Truth will prevail. Communism has fallen
                          and as St.
                          > Seraphim had prophesized.
                          >
                          > in XC,
                          >
                          > viacheslav
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • V. Boitchenko
                          Vladimir, My understanding is that you left the Church Abroad (correct me if I am wrong) thus separating yourself from ROCOR and all of her bishops including
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 28, 2003
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                            Vladimir,

                            My understanding is that you left the Church Abroad (correct me if I am wrong) thus separating yourself from ROCOR and all of her bishops including Vl. Gavriil. The rest of your statement does not make sense. Please clarify.

                            I feel very sorry for those who decided to leave. I also think that they misunderstand the historical mission and the position of the Church Abroad in relationship to the Moscow Patrarchate and the entire Russian Church. I feel sorry for them but I think it is better for them to leave.

                            Your last post to which I responded contained a statement in the first paragraphs saying that "if Church is not free it is not a true Church." Where does this teaching come from?

                            viacheslav

                            I have not separated myself from you, I just happened to think as Vl
                            Gavriil does, but my bishop did not.


                            Vladimir Kozyreff



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Fr. John R. Shaw
                            ... JRS: If by this you mean that nobody has been bothering to answer him anymore, the reason for the silence is simple enough: We have been over these matters
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 28, 2003
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                              Irina Pahlen wrote:

                              > g> It is the silence opposed to Vladimir Kozyreff's questions that is
                              > g> frightening.

                              JRS: If by this you mean that nobody has been bothering to answer him
                              anymore, the reason for the silence is simple enough:

                              We have been over these matters endless times. He, and others like him,
                              simply repeat the same claims over and over again.

                              *No* replies will satisfy them -- and therefore, more and more of us
                              have come to feel that there is no point in spending time writing
                              replies.

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
                            • V. Boitchenko
                              Dear Irina, It is the same old story over and over again. I do not have time or energy or this. The only reason why I answer is because your letter is
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 28, 2003
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                                Dear Irina,

                                It is the same old story over and over again. I do not have time or energy or this. The only reason why I answer is because your letter is addressed to me personally.

                                >>They close their eyes and ears to clear evidence that the MP has NOT changed.

                                What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?

                                >>They prefer to swallow the MP's lies and deceit than to listen to the calls of their once brother and
                                sisters in Christ.

                                We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as brothers now? And we have heard you and others. What seems obvious to you is not that obvious to others.


                                >>IP: Sorry, but this looks like sheer hypocrisy. You take refuge in
                                >>the: "Who am I to judge?"
                                >>When you see someone killed in front of your eyes, what would you
                                >>call the killer? Will you say: "I will abstain from any opinion,
                                etc ..?"

                                I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek salvation in the Church. However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my eyes and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All I hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it as hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.


                                >>IP: What about the 1971 Declaration of the Synod regarding the non-
                                canonicity of the election of the patriarchs?

                                Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.

                                >>IP: So what? Catholicism is recognized by many more people and
                                they also do not need us to realise their "fullness". We lived for
                                about 80 years without the MP. We were free witnesses of the
                                truth.

                                I did not say just "a lot of people" I said the "rest of the Orthodox" and the "Eastern Patriarchs." It is not just recognition by "many more people". It is the only recognition that has ever been considered valid in the history of Orthodox Christianity. What the heterodox think makes no difference. Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth while the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities. That is why the communion was broken. The reason why things change now is because the situation in Russia has changed.


                                >>By the way, why ROCOR bishops did not ask forgiveness for the harsh
                                words and treatment they had vis-à-vis Vladika Vitaly, their
                                Metropolite, and kiss His hand? Why do they refuse to heal this
                                schism?

                                Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired as a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-canonical church.

                                sincerely,

                                viacheslav

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • michael nikitin
                                What Fr.John fails to mention is that Vladimir Kozyreff repeats the claims with new evidence. A reply would have to come with new evidence on the contrary
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                  What Fr.John fails to mention is that Vladimir Kozyreff repeats the claims with new evidence. A reply would have to come with new evidence on the contrary which
                                  Fr.John ,et al., cannot come up with. They want to dispel updated news as old if it doesn't conform to their ideals. The news may be looked at as old.....in other words, nothing has changed.

                                  Michael N.

                                  "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                                  Irina Pahlen wrote:

                                  > g> It is the silence opposed to Vladimir Kozyreff's questions that is
                                  > g> frightening.

                                  JRS: If by this you mean that nobody has been bothering to answer him
                                  anymore, the reason for the silence is simple enough:

                                  We have been over these matters endless times. He, and others like him,
                                  simply repeat the same claims over and over again.

                                  *No* replies will satisfy them -- and therefore, more and more of us
                                  have come to feel that there is no point in spending time writing
                                  replies.

                                  In Christ
                                  Fr. John R. Shaw



                                  ---------------------------------
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • michael nikitin
                                  The Synod has never rescinded the decision of 1971. It confirms the 3rd canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council which states everything that Patriarch Pimen did
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                    The Synod has never rescinded the decision of 1971. It confirms the 3rd canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council which states everything that Patriarch Pimen did had no effect,
                                    which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy.

                                    Many cry that we have to follow Ukaze #362. If we have to abide by Ukaze # 362 then ROCOR has to be one with MP, no autonomy or autocephaly. We can't have one without the other, otherwise we're not abiding by the Ukaze of # 362.

                                    Michael N.



                                    "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:

                                    "Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too."






                                    ---------------------------------
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                                  • goossir
                                    Dear Vitchislav, You write: „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to? It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to slow down the
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                      Dear Vitchislav,

                                      You write:
                                      „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?

                                      It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                                      slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the protesting
                                      letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                                      Nyack Seminar?
                                      And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                                      preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                                      >
                                      „« VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                                      brothers now?

                                      Of course not ¡V why to you think I keep on writing?

                                      „« VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                                      salvation in the Church.

                                      I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
                                      must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.

                                      VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my eyes
                                      and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                                      murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All I
                                      hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it as
                                      hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.

                                      No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                                      well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
                                      know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                                      did compromise with the killers ¡V enough documentation was
                                      published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                                      ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours prove
                                      to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
                                      persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                                      declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                                      sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                                      many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
                                      bishops.

                                      „« VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                                      Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                                      cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                                      the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                                      read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had
                                      you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.

                                      I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is taking
                                      and I cry.

                                      „« VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth while
                                      the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities. That
                                      is why the communion was broken.

                                      The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                                      The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                                      Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                                      There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                                      Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.

                                      „« VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation in
                                      Russia has changed.

                                      Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                                      renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                                      than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
                                      mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
                                      same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living in
                                      luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                                      still need more evidence?

                                      „« VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired as
                                      a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                                      know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
                                      was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
                                      of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                                      canonical church.

                                      Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
                                      schism between us.

                                      We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                                      psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                                      taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
                                      live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged 93,
                                      is not an act of love ¡V it is the least that I can say.

                                      I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                                      Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                                      spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                                      problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                                      when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                                      faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
                                      ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his full
                                      spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                                      with whom and what is the situation.
                                      When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
                                      took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox Church
                                      Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church ¡V this is sheer
                                      nonsense!

                                      It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                                      created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                                      uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this world.
                                      >
                                      I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                                      through God¡¦s will that something can change or be saved.
                                      So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
                                      wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen

                                      Irina Pahlen
                                    • larry most
                                      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Irina and Vitchislav, Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just dissapeared, like the
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                        GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                        Dear Irina and Vitchislav,
                                        Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just dissapeared, like the Albanian Church did? Then maybe their would have been NO Church in Russia. I know that if it was "your" relative that was killed, that you would have a difficult time forgiving, but we MUST, because we pray EVERYDAY "For give us our debts ( sins) as we forgive our debtors (those who sin AGAINST US). The key word is AS (the same way). What is past is past and we can't change it. Besides I don't think that living undar the Tsar was a picnic for everybody.
                                        Love in Christ,
                                        Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

                                        goossir <irene.goossens@...> wrote:
                                        Dear Vitchislav,

                                        You write:
                                        �� VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?

                                        It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                                        slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the protesting
                                        letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                                        Nyack Seminar?
                                        And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                                        preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                                        >
                                        �� VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                                        brothers now?

                                        Of course not �V why to you think I keep on writing?

                                        �� VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                                        salvation in the Church.

                                        I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
                                        must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.

                                        VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my eyes
                                        and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                                        murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All I
                                        hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it as
                                        hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.

                                        No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                                        well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
                                        know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                                        did compromise with the killers �V enough documentation was
                                        published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                                        ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours prove
                                        to be not true? Drozhdov��s?, his carreer while other were
                                        persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                                        declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                                        sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                                        many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
                                        bishops.

                                        �� VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                                        Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                                        cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                                        the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                                        read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had
                                        you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.

                                        I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is taking
                                        and I cry.

                                        �� VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth while
                                        the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities. That
                                        is why the communion was broken.

                                        The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                                        The MP, Stalin��s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                                        Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                                        There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                                        Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.

                                        �� VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation in
                                        Russia has changed.

                                        Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                                        renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                                        than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
                                        mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
                                        same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living in
                                        luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                                        still need more evidence?

                                        �� VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired as
                                        a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                                        know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
                                        was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
                                        of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                                        canonical church.

                                        Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
                                        schism between us.

                                        We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                                        psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                                        taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
                                        live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged 93,
                                        is not an act of love �V it is the least that I can say.

                                        I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                                        Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                                        spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                                        problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                                        when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                                        faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
                                        ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his full
                                        spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                                        with whom and what is the situation.
                                        When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
                                        took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox Church
                                        Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church �V this is sheer
                                        nonsense!

                                        It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                                        created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                                        uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this world.
                                        >
                                        I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                                        through God��s will that something can change or be saved.
                                        So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
                                        wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen

                                        Irina Pahlen





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                                      • vkozyreff
                                        Dear Larry, You are full of good will, and I respect this, but you are in error as well. Implying that the collaboration with the Bolsheviks is what saved the
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                          Dear Larry,

                                          You are full of good will, and I respect this, but you are in error
                                          as well.

                                          Implying that the collaboration with the Bolsheviks is what saved the
                                          Church is heretical. It is the essence of sergianism, which has been
                                          denounced by the ROCOR tradition. If something has been saved by
                                          compromising it cannot be the Church, by definition. The Church is
                                          not to be saved but she saves us. It is the martyrs who saved the
                                          faith, not the compromises.

                                          When Irina mentions those crimes, it does not mean that she does not
                                          forgive. She just says that with or without our pardon, the MP is a
                                          criminal organisation. The question is of God's pardon here, not of
                                          ours. God's pardon (at the difference of ours, which must be
                                          automatic and unconditional), is conditional to repentance and
                                          metanoya. A criminal cannot be a bishop before he repented, even if
                                          we pardon him. Anaxios.

                                          Some say now that they have no proof of what happened in Russia. If
                                          they do not know, than they do not know that Columbus discovered
                                          America, and they believe Met. Serghii when he said that the Church
                                          was not persecuted in Russia. This disserves no reply.

                                          If you dare compare the suffering in the times of the Russian empire
                                          and under the Soviet Union, you do not know what you are talking
                                          about. In his seven years of power, Lenin assassinated 10 millions of
                                          people. In the eight first months of the Bolshevik regime, 10 times
                                          more people were executed in Russia than during the eighty years of
                                          terrorism that preceded the revolution. Just a matter of order of
                                          magnitude.

                                          In God,

                                          Vladimir Kozyreff


                                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                                          <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                                          > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                          > Dear Irina and Vitchislav,
                                          > Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just
                                          dissapeared, like the Albanian Church did? Then maybe their would
                                          have been NO Church in Russia. I know that if it was "your" relative
                                          that was killed, that you would have a difficult time forgiving, but
                                          we MUST, because we pray EVERYDAY "For give us our debts ( sins) as
                                          we forgive our debtors (those who sin AGAINST US). The key word is AS
                                          (the same way). What is past is past and we can't change it. Besides
                                          I don't think that living undar the Tsar was a picnic for everybody.
                                          > Love in Christ,
                                          > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                                          >
                                          > goossir <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
                                          > Dear Vitchislav,
                                          >
                                          > You write:
                                          > „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?
                                          >
                                          > It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                                          > slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the
                                          protesting
                                          > letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                                          > Nyack Seminar?
                                          > And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                                          > preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                                          > >
                                          > „« VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                                          > brothers now?
                                          >
                                          > Of course not ¡V why to you think I keep on writing?
                                          >
                                          > „« VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                                          > salvation in the Church.
                                          >
                                          > I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
                                          > must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.
                                          >
                                          > VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my
                                          eyes
                                          > and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                                          > murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All
                                          I
                                          > hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it
                                          as
                                          > hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.
                                          >
                                          > No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                                          > well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
                                          > know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                                          > did compromise with the killers ¡V enough documentation was
                                          > published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                                          > ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours
                                          prove
                                          > to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
                                          > persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                                          > declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                                          > sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                                          > many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
                                          > bishops.
                                          >
                                          > „« VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                                          > Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                                          > cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                                          > the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                                          > read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that.
                                          Had
                                          > you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.
                                          >
                                          > I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is
                                          taking
                                          > and I cry.
                                          >
                                          > „« VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth
                                          while
                                          > the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities.
                                          That
                                          > is why the communion was broken.
                                          >
                                          > The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                                          > The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                                          > Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                                          > There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                                          > Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.
                                          >
                                          > „« VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation
                                          in
                                          > Russia has changed.
                                          >
                                          > Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                                          > renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                                          > than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
                                          > mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
                                          > same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living
                                          in
                                          > luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                                          > still need more evidence?
                                          >
                                          > „« VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired
                                          as
                                          > a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                                          > know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
                                          > was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
                                          > of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                                          > canonical church.
                                          >
                                          > Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
                                          > schism between us.
                                          >
                                          > We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                                          > psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                                          > taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
                                          > live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged
                                          93,
                                          > is not an act of love ¡V it is the least that I can say.
                                          >
                                          > I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                                          > Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                                          > spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                                          > problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                                          > when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                                          > faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
                                          > ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his
                                          full
                                          > spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                                          > with whom and what is the situation.
                                          > When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
                                          > took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox
                                          Church
                                          > Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church ¡V this is sheer
                                          > nonsense!
                                          >
                                          > It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                                          > created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                                          > uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this
                                          world.
                                          > >
                                          > I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                                          > through God¡¦s will that something can change or be saved.
                                          > So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
                                          > wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen
                                          >
                                          > Irina Pahlen
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • V. Boitchenko
                                          Dear Michael, Let me repeat again the year now is 2003 and the Patriarch is Alexius II. ...which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                            Dear Michael,

                                            Let me repeat again the year now is 2003 and the Patriarch is Alexius II.

                                            "...which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy..." Is this your interpretation or is this actually stated in the decision of the 1971. Ever since 1971 there has been no reordination, reconcecratin, rebaptism, rechrismation, remarriage for those accepted into the Church Abroad from the Moscow Patriarchate. How do you explain that? Let us suppose that patriarchal elections are in fact invalid, does that really mean that the Church evaporates with all its mysteries? What a strange idea.

                                            v



                                            The Synod has never rescinded the decision of 1971. It confirms the 3rd canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council which states everything that Patriarch Pimen did had no effect,
                                            which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy.

                                            Many cry that we have to follow Ukaze #362. If we have to abide by Ukaze # 362 then ROCOR has to be one with MP, no autonomy or autocephaly. We can't have one without the other, otherwise we're not abiding by the Ukaze of # 362.

                                            Michael N.



                                            "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:

                                            "Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too."






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                                          • V. Boitchenko
                                            Dear Irina, ... It is in fact clear that there are some, and, in fact, very few people who feel very strongly about it and who were very active writing those
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                              Dear Irina,

                                              >>It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                                              >>slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the protesting
                                              >>letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                                              >>Nyack Seminar?
                                              >>And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                                              >>preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.

                                              It is in fact clear that there are some, and, in fact, very few people who feel very strongly about it and who were very active writing those letters. NO clear evidence was presented in those letters. What is clear, however, is that the Church Abroad is not ready to jump into any sort of union with the Moscow Patriarchate. That was clear before the Conference and the Synod and it remains clear now, and it will remain so even after the All-Diaspora Sobor. It is also clear that some people have mistaken the Church Abroad for one of the schismatic so-called "true orthodox" churches similar to the various "Old Calendar Greek Synods." If you receive the Vertograd-Misinform Bulletin you will see that they are listing ROCOR among those. That is another small category who are very vocal. They developed a theology of their own according to which there is Official World Pseudo-Orthodoxy and True Orthodoxy. For most of the Church it is clear that we should try to work out the problems and that there is Grace and Church Life in the Church in Russia.

                                              >>No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as well as I do that millions were killed...

                                              You did use the words "if front of your eyes." I understand that you may have had such experience. Yes, there were millions killed. The same millions are commemorated in the Moscow Patriarchate and you cannot deny that it was after all the Moscow Patriarchate that suffered it along with the Russian people and was persecuted as well. Even the Church Abroad has glorified martyrs who remained with Met. Sergius. I presume that you suggest that Moscow Patriarch was supposed to raise people for an uprising against the authorities. I cannot accept that. Church is not a political organization and may exist under any regime.

                                              >>Tell me which rumors prove
                                              >>to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
                                              >>persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                                              >>declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step?

                                              Yes, "Agent Drozdov" is nothing but a rumor. It comes from a "pop-rasstriga" Gleb Yakunin who supposedly had seen some KGB file. No contemporary secular historian in Russia or abroad will accept it as reliable source, thus it is a rumor. Note that the Russian society is very secular now and the media is free. Does it not seem strange to you that no reliable magazine or news paper has used this information in their publications. How come this file was made available only to Yakunin who had been writing the same things since the 70's (see back issues of the Russkoe Vozrozhdenie) and no one else. Patriarch's career? I do not know a lot of the details. He became widely known only after becoming the Metropolitan of Leningrad and Novgorod. All bishops have some sort of career, I guess. Monasteries is Jerusalem were taken away from us because ex-bp. Varnava and Mother Juliania did not allow the Patriarch to venerate the sites that even the heterodox are allowed to. Sergianism and ecumenism are very loose terms that everyone uses as the wish.

                                              >>The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                                              >>The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                                              >>Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                                              >>There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                                              >>Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.

                                              As I have mentioned before we have saints among those who you call "evil" and "not persecuted."

                                              v




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • vkozyreff
                                              Dear Viacheslav, You write: Nobody was killed in front of my eyes and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of murder. I do not have reliable
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 30, 2003
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Dear Viacheslav,

                                                You write: "Nobody was killed in front of my eyes and I cannot accuse
                                                any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of murder. I do not have
                                                reliable information about their crimes. All I hear is rumours and
                                                most of them prove to be not true. Think of it as hypocrisy but I
                                                will not judge based on that".

                                                You do judge. Moreover, you mix up judging and judging. Your
                                                judgement about condemning a person is not required and even
                                                forbidden by Christ, even if you do have all the information, but
                                                this is not the question.

                                                Your judgement however about understanding and knowing from the
                                                available historical documents, from the ROCOR teaching and from
                                                common knowledge, that the MP did collaborate with the KGB, and did
                                                not limit its collaboration to tasks that could not lead to criminal
                                                acts by the NKVD, GPU, KGB is required (the spiritual man judges all
                                                things). You must judge whether or not the MP was the rock of faith
                                                on which Christ built His Church, and hence whether it is the Church
                                                that you need for your salvation or a false teacher of the kind about
                                                which Christ has warned us.

                                                Deciding, as you do, that the MP is axios with the information that
                                                you have available is a judgement. Deciding that unrepentant KGB
                                                accomplices that consider their collaboration with the murderers as a
                                                bold step are good enough to lead the Church is a judgement which may
                                                be harmful to the faith and to your salvation.

                                                This has no bearing whatsoever with the fact that you decided or not
                                                to forgive the crimes that they have committed on others. We must
                                                forgive the suffering that have been inflicted on us, not the
                                                suffering that has been inflicted on others. Our forgiveness does not
                                                absolve the criminals however and does not make them innocent or
                                                worthy to lead the Church. That forgiveness is just for our
                                                salvation. What absolves crimes is repentance and confession, not our
                                                forgiving.

                                                I just suggest that your judging that the MP is good enough is a
                                                judgement and a wrong judgement, just because it is in contradiction
                                                with the traditional teaching of the ROCOR, and because you judge not
                                                knowing the facts, as you say yourself.

                                                In God,

                                                Vladimir Kozyreff


                                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "goossir"
                                                <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
                                                > Dear Vitchislav,
                                                >
                                                > You write:
                                                > „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?
                                                >
                                                > It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                                                > slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the
                                                protesting
                                                > letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                                                > Nyack Seminar?
                                                > And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                                                > preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                                                > >
                                                > „« VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                                                > brothers now?
                                                >
                                                > Of course not ¡V why to you think I keep on writing?
                                                >
                                                > „« VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                                                > salvation in the Church.
                                                >
                                                > I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
                                                > must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.
                                                >
                                                > VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my
                                                eyes
                                                > and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                                                > murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All
                                                I
                                                > hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it
                                                as
                                                > hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.
                                                >
                                                > No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                                                > well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
                                                > know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                                                > did compromise with the killers ¡V enough documentation was
                                                > published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                                                > ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours
                                                prove
                                                > to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
                                                > persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                                                > declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                                                > sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                                                > many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
                                                > bishops.
                                                >
                                                > „« VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                                                > Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                                                > cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                                                > the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                                                > read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that.
                                                Had
                                                > you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.
                                                >
                                                > I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is
                                                taking
                                                > and I cry.
                                                >
                                                > „« VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth
                                                while
                                                > the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities.
                                                That
                                                > is why the communion was broken.
                                                >
                                                > The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                                                > The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                                                > Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                                                > There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                                                > Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.
                                                >
                                                > „« VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation
                                                in
                                                > Russia has changed.
                                                >
                                                > Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                                                > renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                                                > than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
                                                > mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
                                                > same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living
                                                in
                                                > luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                                                > still need more evidence?
                                                >
                                                > „« VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired
                                                as
                                                > a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                                                > know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
                                                > was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
                                                > of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                                                > canonical church.
                                                >
                                                > Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
                                                > schism between us.
                                                >
                                                > We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                                                > psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                                                > taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
                                                > live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged
                                                93,
                                                > is not an act of love ¡V it is the least that I can say.
                                                >
                                                > I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                                                > Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                                                > spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                                                > problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                                                > when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                                                > faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
                                                > ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his
                                                full
                                                > spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                                                > with whom and what is the situation.
                                                > When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
                                                > took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox
                                                Church
                                                > Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church ¡V this is sheer
                                                > nonsense!
                                                >
                                                > It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                                                > created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                                                > uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this
                                                world.
                                                > >
                                                > I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                                                > through God¡¦s will that something can change or be saved.
                                                > So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
                                                > wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen
                                                >
                                                > Irina Pahlen
                                              • V. Boitchenko
                                                Dear Vladimir, ... I, on the other hand, say that the available historical documents do not prove anything from what you claim. There is no such teaching of
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Dec 30, 2003
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                                                  Dear Vladimir,

                                                  >>Your judgement however about understanding and knowing from the
                                                  >>available historical documents, from the ROCOR teaching and from
                                                  >>common knowledge, that the MP did collaborate with the KGB, and did
                                                  >>not limit its collaboration to tasks that could not lead to criminal
                                                  >>acts by the NKVD, GPU, KGB is required (the spiritual man judges all
                                                  >>things). You must judge whether or not the MP was the rock of faith
                                                  >>on which Christ built His Church, and hence whether it is the Church
                                                  >>that you need for your salvation or a false teacher of the kind about
                                                  >>which Christ has warned us.

                                                  I, on the other hand, say that the available historical documents do not prove anything from what you claim. There is no such teaching of the ROCOR(though there may have been harsh statements made by the hierarchs), and, on the contrary, we have glorified saints who remained in the official church, we have recognized and commemorated the hierarchy at different points in history and never denied the presence of Grace in their Mysteries, and the numerous statements by the Synod in the past show that we saw the MP as a part of the Russian Church (even though it was not free). The "common knowledge" among some people abroad is often based on hearsay and bias. My experience in Russia was that with the abundance of historical data and deeper knowledge and understanding of facts, neither the secular historians nor the people in the Church perceive the Church overall as a collaborator with the KGB (even though there may have been isolated cases), however they do see it as the persecuted Russian Church. That is the common knowledge I am familiar with. Besides, I am sorry to say this, and please accept my apologies if it offends you, based on your previous posts on this list, I question your own competence in the knowledge of all the facts you have mentioned.

                                                  I do have an opinion of my own but I will accept the judgment of the Synod.

                                                  viacheslav


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • michael nikitin
                                                  Let s not read things into the epistle that aren t there, just as Patriarch Alexey s forgiveness of past mistakes ,but no mention of his compromising the
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Dec 31, 2003
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                                                    Let's not read things into the epistle that aren't there, just
                                                    as Patriarch Alexey's forgiveness of past mistakes ,but no
                                                    mention of his compromising the Russian Church with the godless regime.

                                                    Why did the Church give us canons if they are meaningless?

                                                    The MP contends Metr.Sergius saved the Russian Church by
                                                    colloborating with the godless regime.This is blasphemy.
                                                    The decision of the Synod of 1971 stands until the MP repents
                                                    and is recognized by ROCOR. Ideally this should entail the Patriarch coming
                                                    to a ROCOR Church and asking forgiveness of what
                                                    Metr.Sergius did. All of those returning to the true Church(ROCOR) from the
                                                    MP repented and were admitted by way of economia.
                                                    No baptism,marriage, etc.. is required if the outward form was correct.

                                                    Economia should not be mistaken for policy.

                                                    Some say we should trust the bishops in whatever they do, but they were proved wrong.
                                                    Just as in the days of St.Maximos the Confessor.
                                                    They were proved to be uniting without the Holy Spirit as the faithful of ROCOR
                                                    showed.

                                                    Michael N.



                                                    "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
                                                    Dear Michael,

                                                    Let me repeat again the year now is 2003 and the Patriarch is Alexius II.

                                                    "...which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy..." Is this your interpretation or is this actually stated in the decision of the 1971. Ever since 1971 there has been no reordination, reconcecratin, rebaptism, rechrismation, remarriage for those accepted into the Church Abroad from the Moscow Patriarchate. How do you explain that? Let us suppose that patriarchal elections are in fact invalid, does that really mean that the Church evaporates with all its mysteries? What a strange idea.

                                                    v



                                                    The Synod has never rescinded the decision of 1971. It confirms the 3rd canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council which states everything that Patriarch Pimen did had no effect,
                                                    which includes the Holy Gifts and elevation of bishops and clergy.

                                                    Many cry that we have to follow Ukaze #362. If we have to abide by Ukaze # 362 then ROCOR has to be one with MP, no autonomy or autocephaly. We can't have one without the other, otherwise we're not abiding by the Ukaze of # 362.

                                                    Michael N.



                                                    "V. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:

                                                    "Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that. Had you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too."




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                                                  • larry most
                                                    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Vladirir, I realise that I don t know about all of the happenings during the Soviet period, but I do know
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Dec 31, 2003
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                                                      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                                      Dear Vladirir,
                                                      I realise that I don't know about all of the happenings during the Soviet period, but I do know that many Christians perservered. What I am saying is that what has happened, has happened and we can't do a whole lot about it. I remember reading in school a book called " I found God in Soviet Russia" (but I cannot remember the author's name). This was before I had EVER heard of the Orthodox Church. (My parents were not church goers). I was so impressed by the book, that I never forgot it. I have also read every book by Alexander Solzenitsan that has been translated into English, So I'm well aware of the overwelming suffering by Christians in the Soviet Union. However, for me I don't see what can be accomplished by turning our backs on the MP and most of the other jurisdictions in the US. I'm sorry, but I am interested in a church that tries to share its Orthodoxy.
                                                      Love in Christ,
                                                      Sub-deacon Lawrence

                                                      vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
                                                      Dear Larry,

                                                      You are full of good will, and I respect this, but you are in error
                                                      as well.

                                                      Implying that the collaboration with the Bolsheviks is what saved the
                                                      Church is heretical. It is the essence of sergianism, which has been
                                                      denounced by the ROCOR tradition. If something has been saved by
                                                      compromising it cannot be the Church, by definition. The Church is
                                                      not to be saved but she saves us. It is the martyrs who saved the
                                                      faith, not the compromises.

                                                      When Irina mentions those crimes, it does not mean that she does not
                                                      forgive. She just says that with or without our pardon, the MP is a
                                                      criminal organisation. The question is of God's pardon here, not of
                                                      ours. God's pardon (at the difference of ours, which must be
                                                      automatic and unconditional), is conditional to repentance and
                                                      metanoya. A criminal cannot be a bishop before he repented, even if
                                                      we pardon him. Anaxios.

                                                      Some say now that they have no proof of what happened in Russia. If
                                                      they do not know, than they do not know that Columbus discovered
                                                      America, and they believe Met. Serghii when he said that the Church
                                                      was not persecuted in Russia. This disserves no reply.

                                                      If you dare compare the suffering in the times of the Russian empire
                                                      and under the Soviet Union, you do not know what you are talking
                                                      about. In his seven years of power, Lenin assassinated 10 millions of
                                                      people. In the eight first months of the Bolshevik regime, 10 times
                                                      more people were executed in Russia than during the eighty years of
                                                      terrorism that preceded the revolution. Just a matter of order of
                                                      magnitude.

                                                      In God,

                                                      Vladimir Kozyreff


                                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                                                      <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                                                      > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                                      > Dear Irina and Vitchislav,
                                                      > Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just
                                                      dissapeared, like the Albanian Church did? Then maybe their would
                                                      have been NO Church in Russia. I know that if it was "your" relative
                                                      that was killed, that you would have a difficult time forgiving, but
                                                      we MUST, because we pray EVERYDAY "For give us our debts ( sins) as
                                                      we forgive our debtors (those who sin AGAINST US). The key word is AS
                                                      (the same way). What is past is past and we can't change it. Besides
                                                      I don't think that living undar the Tsar was a picnic for everybody.
                                                      > Love in Christ,
                                                      > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                                                      >
                                                      > goossir <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
                                                      > Dear Vitchislav,
                                                      >
                                                      > You write:
                                                      > �� VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?
                                                      >
                                                      > It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                                                      > slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the
                                                      protesting
                                                      > letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during the
                                                      > Nyack Seminar?
                                                      > And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                                                      > preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                                                      > >
                                                      > �� VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                                                      > brothers now?
                                                      >
                                                      > Of course not �V why to you think I keep on writing?
                                                      >
                                                      > �� VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                                                      > salvation in the Church.
                                                      >
                                                      > I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why I
                                                      > must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.
                                                      >
                                                      > VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my
                                                      eyes
                                                      > and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                                                      > murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes. All
                                                      I
                                                      > hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it
                                                      as
                                                      > hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.
                                                      >
                                                      > No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                                                      > well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you should
                                                      > know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                                                      > did compromise with the killers �V enough documentation was
                                                      > published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                                                      > ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours
                                                      prove
                                                      > to be not true? Drozhdov��s?, his carreer while other were
                                                      > persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                                                      > declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                                                      > sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                                                      > many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets and
                                                      > bishops.
                                                      >
                                                      > �� VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                                                      > Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                                                      > cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                                                      > the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                                                      > read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that.
                                                      Had
                                                      > you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.
                                                      >
                                                      > I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is
                                                      taking
                                                      > and I cry.
                                                      >
                                                      > �� VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth
                                                      while
                                                      > the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities.
                                                      That
                                                      > is why the communion was broken.
                                                      >
                                                      > The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                                                      > The MP, Stalin��s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                                                      > Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                                                      > There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                                                      > Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.
                                                      >
                                                      > �� VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation
                                                      in
                                                      > Russia has changed.
                                                      >
                                                      > Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                                                      > renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                                                      > than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there: the
                                                      > mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and the
                                                      > same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living
                                                      in
                                                      > luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                                                      > still need more evidence?
                                                      >
                                                      > �� VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is retired
                                                      as
                                                      > a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                                                      > know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that he
                                                      > was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is because
                                                      > of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                                                      > canonical church.
                                                      >
                                                      > Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal the
                                                      > schism between us.
                                                      >
                                                      > We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                                                      > psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                                                      > taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person to
                                                      > live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged
                                                      93,
                                                      > is not an act of love �V it is the least that I can say.
                                                      >
                                                      > I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                                                      > Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                                                      > spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                                                      > problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                                                      > when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                                                      > faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to his
                                                      > ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his
                                                      full
                                                      > spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                                                      > with whom and what is the situation.
                                                      > When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take he
                                                      > took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox
                                                      Church
                                                      > Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church �V this is sheer
                                                      > nonsense!
                                                      >
                                                      > It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                                                      > created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                                                      > uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this
                                                      world.
                                                      > >
                                                      > I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                                                      > through God��s will that something can change or be saved.
                                                      > So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered between
                                                      > wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass. Amen
                                                      >
                                                      > Irina Pahlen
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
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                                                    • vkozyreff
                                                      Dear Larry, Russia has given to God more martyrs than all nations taken together ever did. The question is: how do we tell true orthodoxy from false orthodoxy,
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Dec 31, 2003
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                                                        Dear Larry,

                                                        Russia has given to God more martyrs than all nations taken together
                                                        ever did.

                                                        The question is: how do we tell true orthodoxy from false orthodoxy,
                                                        knowing that false orthodoxy is seducing? Shall we share orthodoxy or
                                                        false orthodoxy?

                                                        In God,

                                                        Vladimir Kozyreff

                                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                                                        <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                                                        > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                                        > Dear Vladirir,
                                                        > I realise that I don't know about all of the happenings during the
                                                        Soviet period, but I do know that many Christians perservered. What I
                                                        am saying is that what has happened, has happened and we can't do a
                                                        whole lot about it. I remember reading in school a book called " I
                                                        found God in Soviet Russia" (but I cannot remember the author's
                                                        name). This was before I had EVER heard of the Orthodox Church. (My
                                                        parents were not church goers). I was so impressed by the book, that
                                                        I never forgot it. I have also read every book by Alexander
                                                        Solzenitsan that has been translated into English, So I'm well aware
                                                        of the overwelming suffering by Christians in the Soviet Union.
                                                        However, for me I don't see what can be accomplished by turning our
                                                        backs on the MP and most of the other jurisdictions in the US. I'm
                                                        sorry, but I am interested in a church that tries to share its
                                                        Orthodoxy.
                                                        > Love in Christ,
                                                        > Sub-deacon Lawrence
                                                        >
                                                        > vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                        > Dear Larry,
                                                        >
                                                        > You are full of good will, and I respect this, but you are in error
                                                        > as well.
                                                        >
                                                        > Implying that the collaboration with the Bolsheviks is what saved
                                                        the
                                                        > Church is heretical. It is the essence of sergianism, which has
                                                        been
                                                        > denounced by the ROCOR tradition. If something has been saved by
                                                        > compromising it cannot be the Church, by definition. The Church is
                                                        > not to be saved but she saves us. It is the martyrs who saved the
                                                        > faith, not the compromises.
                                                        >
                                                        > When Irina mentions those crimes, it does not mean that she does
                                                        not
                                                        > forgive. She just says that with or without our pardon, the MP is a
                                                        > criminal organisation. The question is of God's pardon here, not of
                                                        > ours. God's pardon (at the difference of ours, which must be
                                                        > automatic and unconditional), is conditional to repentance and
                                                        > metanoya. A criminal cannot be a bishop before he repented, even if
                                                        > we pardon him. Anaxios.
                                                        >
                                                        > Some say now that they have no proof of what happened in Russia. If
                                                        > they do not know, than they do not know that Columbus discovered
                                                        > America, and they believe Met. Serghii when he said that the Church
                                                        > was not persecuted in Russia. This disserves no reply.
                                                        >
                                                        > If you dare compare the suffering in the times of the Russian
                                                        empire
                                                        > and under the Soviet Union, you do not know what you are talking
                                                        > about. In his seven years of power, Lenin assassinated 10 millions
                                                        of
                                                        > people. In the eight first months of the Bolshevik regime, 10 times
                                                        > more people were executed in Russia than during the eighty years of
                                                        > terrorism that preceded the revolution. Just a matter of order of
                                                        > magnitude.
                                                        >
                                                        > In God,
                                                        >
                                                        > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                                                        > <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                                                        > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                                        > > Dear Irina and Vitchislav,
                                                        > > Would it have been better, if the Russian Church would have just
                                                        > dissapeared, like the Albanian Church did? Then maybe their would
                                                        > have been NO Church in Russia. I know that if it was "your"
                                                        relative
                                                        > that was killed, that you would have a difficult time forgiving,
                                                        but
                                                        > we MUST, because we pray EVERYDAY "For give us our debts ( sins) as
                                                        > we forgive our debtors (those who sin AGAINST US). The key word is
                                                        AS
                                                        > (the same way). What is past is past and we can't change it.
                                                        Besides
                                                        > I don't think that living undar the Tsar was a picnic for
                                                        everybody.
                                                        > > Love in Christ,
                                                        > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
                                                        > >
                                                        > > goossir <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
                                                        > > Dear Vitchislav,
                                                        > >
                                                        > > You write:
                                                        > > „« VB: What clear evidence? Who is it clear to?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > It is clear to so many people that the ROCOR hierarchy decided to
                                                        > > slow down the pace of this shameful union. What about the
                                                        > protesting
                                                        > > letters, petitions that were sent everywhere before and during
                                                        the
                                                        > > Nyack Seminar?
                                                        > > And of course to those who, three years ago, saw what was in
                                                        > > preparation started to protest but were rejected, defrocked, etc.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > „« VB: We are "once brothers in Christ" now. You reject us as
                                                        > > brothers now?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Of course not ¡V why to you think I keep on writing?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > „« VB: I am a hypocrite and a sinner and that is why I seek
                                                        > > salvation in the Church.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I am also a sinner and seek salvation in the Church. That is why
                                                        I
                                                        > > must use my judgment to find and be with the real one.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > VB: However, let me say this: Nobody was killed in front of my
                                                        > eyes
                                                        > > and I cannot accuse any of the bishops or clergy in Russia of
                                                        > > murder. I do not have reliable information about their crimes.
                                                        All
                                                        > I
                                                        > > hear is rumors and most of them prove to be not true. Think of it
                                                        > as
                                                        > > hypocrisy but I will not judge based on that.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > No, not in front of your eyes (that was an image) but you know as
                                                        > > well as I do that millions were killed and you know (or you
                                                        should
                                                        > > know) that those bishops to whom the ROCOR bishops are bowing now
                                                        > > did compromise with the killers ¡V enough documentation was
                                                        > > published. To ignore them or find them unreliable is like the
                                                        > > ostrich burying her head into the sand. Tell me which rumours
                                                        > prove
                                                        > > to be not true? Drozhdov¡¦s?, his carreer while other were
                                                        > > persecuted? The seizing of our monasteries in Jerusalem? The
                                                        > > declaration saying that Sergianism was a bold step? I am very
                                                        > > sorry, more so, sad, that you refuse to judge on these bases and
                                                        > > many others, because we were taught to beware of false prophets
                                                        and
                                                        > > bishops.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > „« VB: Decision of the Synod in 1971 concerned the election of
                                                        > > Patriarch Pimen. The Patriarch of Russia now is Alexius II. We
                                                        > > cannot apply the decision of 1971 to all the bishops now, however
                                                        > > the Synod can and they ruled differently. The most recent epistle
                                                        > > read in our churches today after Liturgy is an evidence of that.
                                                        > Had
                                                        > > you been a part of the Church you would have heard it too.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I do read on the ROCOR website the new path that the Synod is
                                                        > taking
                                                        > > and I cry.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > „« VB: Yes, the Church Abroad was free and witnessed the truth
                                                        > while
                                                        > > the Church in Russia was under the yoke of Godless authorities.
                                                        > That
                                                        > > is why the communion was broken.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > The communion was not broken with the persecuted Russian Church.
                                                        > > The MP, Stalin¡¦s creation (which is NOT the persecuted Russian
                                                        > > Church) was rejected by our Synod.
                                                        > > There is this evil will which wants to mix the persecuted Russian
                                                        > > Church with the MP, just to deceit naive and ignorant people.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > „« VB: The reason why things change now is because the situation
                                                        > in
                                                        > > Russia has changed.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Yes it has changed: we can travel there rather freely. The
                                                        > > renovations of building is blooming. The press is even more free
                                                        > > than in the west. But the diabolical symbols are still there:
                                                        the
                                                        > > mommy, the red stars above the Kremlin, the national anthem and
                                                        the
                                                        > > same pseudo-church hierarchs who were NEVER persecuted are living
                                                        > in
                                                        > > luxury while 80% of the Russian population is miserable. Do you
                                                        > > still need more evidence?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > „« VB: Why do you have to get Vl. Vitaly into this? He is
                                                        retired
                                                        > as
                                                        > > a ruling first hierarch but he is still a part of our church. You
                                                        > > know we all want Vl. Vitaly back with us and we feel sorry that
                                                        he
                                                        > > was taken advantage of. The reason why it is impossible is
                                                        because
                                                        > > of the people who surround him and who use him to create a non-
                                                        > > canonical church.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Just wondering why there is no such rush as with the MP to heal
                                                        the
                                                        > > schism between us.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > We saw how you wanted Vl Vitaly back: taking him by force to a
                                                        > > psychiatric hospital, trying to kidnap him in Mansonville and now
                                                        > > taking him to Court. It would be quite an ordeal for any person
                                                        to
                                                        > > live through this but to inflict this on an elderly person, aged
                                                        > 93,
                                                        > > is not an act of love ¡V it is the least that I can say.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I have been to Mansonville this autumn, I saw and spoke with Vl
                                                        > > Vitaly, and I can assure you that he is not used at all. His
                                                        > > spiritual strength is enormous. Being old and having a hearing
                                                        > > problem he is sometimes distracted from petty daily subjects, but
                                                        > > when it comes to the position of the Church, the loyalty, the
                                                        > > faithfulness to the Truth, then you see him putting his hand to
                                                        his
                                                        > > ears and not wasting one word, commenting if necessary with his
                                                        > full
                                                        > > spirit. No influence there at all! He knows exactly were he is,
                                                        > > with whom and what is the situation.
                                                        > > When he realised the new path that some hierarchs wanted to take
                                                        he
                                                        > > took back his resignation. He kept the True Russian Orthodox
                                                        > Church
                                                        > > Abroad. He did NOT create a non-canonical church ¡V this is
                                                        sheer
                                                        > > nonsense!
                                                        > >
                                                        > > It is terrible: you say now that the MP is canonical (it was
                                                        > > created by Stalin) and our Church, the part which stayed True,
                                                        > > uncanonical! This is the real makeshift of the prince of this
                                                        > world.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > I must be a fool to keep writing because I know that it is only
                                                        > > through God¡¦s will that something can change or be saved.
                                                        > > So I bow to His Will and pray for us little ones, scattered
                                                        between
                                                        > > wolves, not recognising our own mother. Gospodi pomiluij nass.
                                                        Amen
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Irina Pahlen
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
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