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ROCA Bishops ask forgiveness from "Mother Church"? ??in Russian

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  • byakimov@csc.com.au
    http://www.rusk.ru/newsdata.php?idar=311190 http://www.rusk.ru/st.php?idar=1000847 (below) Архиереи РПЦЗ попросили прощения у
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 20, 2003
      http://www.rusk.ru/newsdata.php?idar=311190

      http://www.rusk.ru/st.php?idar=1000847 (below)


      Архиереи РПЦЗ попросили прощения у Матери-Церкви


      МОСКВА, 20 ноября - О начале процесса воссоединения двух частей Русской
      Церкви, разделенных революцией и гражданской войной в России, заявил
      сегодня Патриарх Московский и всея Руси Алексий II. Выступая перед
      слушателями Российской академии государственной службы при Президенте РФ
      (РАГС) он отметил, что "путь к единству начался, но он будет не таким
      простым, для его завершения потребуется время".
      Комментируя переговоры, состоявшиеся накануне в Москве с делегацией Русской
      Православной Церкви Заграницей, глава РПЦ сообщил, что обе стороны
      "рассматривают эти встречи как знакомство, которое прошло в духе открытости
      и взаимопонимания". Он напомнил, что желание к объединению возникло не
      сегодня. Уже в 1991 году проходивший в Москве Конгресс соотечественников
      направил послания в его адрес и тогдашнему главе РПЦЗ митрополиту Виталию с
      предложением о встрече. На что Алексий II ответил согласием, которого не
      последовало со стороны РПЦЗ. Теперь, считает Патриар, когда "разбит сосуд,
      надо прежде собрать осколки".
      Патриарх рассказал о том, как проходили переговоры двух делегаций, отметив,
      что были "созданы комиссии, которые будут работать над проблемами,
      мешающими нашему объединению". Он также напомнил, что проблемы и претензии
      есть не только у РПЦЗ. Предстоятель рассказал, что "Зарубежная Церковь
      создала в России параллельные приходы на канонической территории РПЦ
      Московского Патриархата, пытаясь оправдать свой отрыв от Матери-Церкви и
      перенеся раскол в Россию. Поэтому надо решать эту проблему". Глава РПЦ
      сообщил, что представители Зарубежной Русской Церкви "выражена просьба
      простить за все резкие высказывания, которые были ими допущены в адрес
      Московского Патриархата".
      Патриарх рассказал о ближайших планах двух частей Православной Церкви,
      отметив что в начале будущего года в Москву приедет первоиерарх РПЦЗ
      митрополит Лавр. Но прежде, в декабре 2003 года Зарубежная Церковь проведет
      Архиерейский собор, поскольку "у них нет единодушия в вопросе объединения с
      Матерью-Церковью". Что касается РПЦ Московского Патриархата, уже в октября
      будущего года, предположил Патриарх, она проведет Архиерейский Собор,
      основной темой которого станет сближение с РПЦЗ и возможность
      восстановления молитвенно-евхаристического общения. Напомним, что все годы
      конфликта, то есть последние 85 лет возможность литургического общения
      отсутствовала. Кроме того, по словам Предстоятеля, "за 70 лет было немало
      измышлений, не соответствующих действительности, за которые необходимо
      принести извинения".
    • michael nikitin
      Are we( and Catacomb Church) going to ask forgiveness for going into schism from the Mother Church?....And we should also ask the OCA forgiveness for using
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 21, 2003
        Are we( and Catacomb Church) going to ask forgiveness for going into schism from
        the Mother Church?....And we should also ask the OCA forgiveness for using harsh language.

        Michael N.

        byakimov@... wrote:
        http://www.rusk.ru/newsdata.php?idar=311190

        http://www.rusk.ru/st.php?idar=1000847 (below)


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      • michael nikitin
        Let s not kid ourselves. By this time next year, if not sooner, we will be concelebrating with the MP. One doesn t have to be a profit to see this. Then we
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 21, 2003
          Let's not kid ourselves. By this time next year, if not sooner, we will
          be concelebrating with the MP. One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.
          Then we will pray with OCA, after we ask them forgiveness.

          We should not have had dialogue with MP until after they repented and got out of Ecumenism. They know what is expected. If they were a true Church
          repentence would have been the first thing a true Church would do after becoming "free".

          Those faithful who discern what is going on should look to where they will turn
          when these things come to fruition.

          Michael N.

          byakimov@... wrote:
          http://www.rusk.ru/newsdata.php?idar=311190

          http://www.rusk.ru/st.php?idar=1000847 (below)




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        • cantor71
          I am at a loss about the profit you speak of. On the other hand, there is a very spiritually consoling statement by Vl. Lavr on the Synod website - I hope it
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 21, 2003
            I am at a loss about the "profit" you speak of.

            On the other hand, there is a very spiritually consoling statement
            by Vl. Lavr on the Synod website - I hope it comes out in English
            soon!

            http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/Novosti-2003/mLavr_Nov21.html

            Mike, since you read Russian, it will be clear to you.

            George

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
            <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
            One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.
          • larry most
            GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Why so negative? Do we not pray for the unity of the Church. I was in the OCA and I didn t see all of the
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 21, 2003
              GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
              Why so negative? Do we not pray for the unity of the Church. I was in the OCA and I didn't see all of the "badness" that so many others see. I guess I'm better off blind.
              Love in Christ,
              Sub-deacon Lawrence

              michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
              Let's not kid ourselves. By this time next year, if not sooner, we will
              be concelebrating with the MP. One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.
              Then we will pray with OCA, after we ask them forgiveness.

              We should not have had dialogue with MP until after they repented and got out of Ecumenism. They know what is expected. If they were a true Church
              repentence would have been the first thing a true Church would do after becoming "free".

              Those faithful who discern what is going on should look to where they will turn
              when these things come to fruition.

              Michael N.

              byakimov@... wrote:
              http://www.rusk.ru/newsdata.php?idar=311190

              http://www.rusk.ru/st.php?idar=1000847 (below)




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            • boulia_1
              ... into schism from ... for using harsh language. ... I personally think our Bishops showed great wisdom and humility by requesting forgiveness. Don t we ask
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 22, 2003
                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                > Are we( and Catacomb Church) going to ask forgiveness for going
                into schism from
                > the Mother Church?....And we should also ask the OCA forgiveness
                for using harsh language.
                >
                > Michael N.
                >

                I personally think our Bishops showed great wisdom and humility by
                requesting forgiveness. Don't we ask God for that in so many of our
                (supposedly) daily prayers, when we seek His mercy for our offenses
                to others, "seen or unseen, intentional or unwitting..." Let's see if
                this humility is countered with something similar.

                Personally, my initial take on the Patriarch's comment about
                the "apology" was that he is bragging -- I didn't like it! But,let's
                not forget that, inside Russia (and perhaps in the MP "outside
                Russia") there are many Priests and faithful who have a poor
                understanding or an absolute wrong picture of ROCOR. I have met some
                of them really very good people, dedicated servants of God, who
                struggled against terrible difficulties, and who could not understand
                why the "lucky" (or "opportunistic") ones in ROCOR whose ancestors
                got out could be so critical and unsympathetic to them. In view of
                that, I can see the Patriarch's need to communicate that our ROCOR
                Bishops are not coming to them on a 'high horse'.

                It's all very complicated -- there is no black or white (or red and
                white...)

                --Elizabeth
              • boulia_1
                ... will ... see this. ... and got out of Ecumenism. They know what is expected. If they were a true Church ... after becoming free . ... they will turn ... I
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 22, 2003
                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                  <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                  > Let's not kid ourselves. By this time next year, if not sooner, we
                  will
                  > be concelebrating with the MP. One doesn't have to be a profit to
                  see this.
                  > Then we will pray with OCA, after we ask them forgiveness.
                  >
                  > We should not have had dialogue with MP until after they repented
                  and got out of Ecumenism. They know what is expected. If they were a
                  true Church
                  > repentence would have been the first thing a true Church would do
                  after becoming "free".
                  >
                  > Those faithful who discern what is going on should look to where
                  they will turn
                  > when these things come to fruition.
                  >
                  > Michael N.


                  I know I'll regret taking this bait, and I wouldn't except to take
                  exception to this last sentence. Mr Nikitin, it sounds like you are
                  either organizing a new schism or trying to rally people toward an
                  existing one!! Instead of 'discerning' and offering your prophecies
                  (you mean PROPHET not PROFIT), why don't you spend some time praying
                  and asking forgiveness yourself! Who among us is without sin?

                  --elizabeth
                • michael nikitin
                  Since when is it negative to keep the faith pure? Those that feel being politically correct is more important than being true to GOD and his Church are only
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 24, 2003
                    Since when is it negative to keep the faith pure?

                    Those that feel being politically correct is more important
                    than being true to GOD and his Church are only fooling themselves.

                    Remember the first commandment?
                    It is not so hard to discern when one is not sincere.
                    It's been 12 years and in that time the MP stole parishes,
                    continued in ecumenism,WCC, no repentance and now ROCOR
                    asks them forgiveness.

                    It is they that should have asked forgiveness right after becoming "free".
                    But instead they make us think we are the schismatic ones and
                    somehow in our rush to be in World Orthodoxy we
                    are the ones asking forgiveness for keeping the faith pure.

                    Indeed, the bishops of ROCOR(L) made the MP look as though
                    they are the Mother Church. Those that will believe in anti-Christ
                    as being Christ will do so of their own free will.

                    Pretty good MP tactic. Make the righteous feel guilty.

                    Michael N.


                    larry most <larrymost2002@...> wrote:
                    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                    Why so negative? Do we not pray for the unity of the Church. I was in the OCA and I didn't see all of the "badness" that so many others see. I guess I'm better off blind.
                    Love in Christ,
                    Sub-deacon Lawrence

                    michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                    Let's not kid ourselves. By this time next year, if not sooner, we will
                    be concelebrating with the MP. One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.
                    Then we will pray with OCA, after we ask them forgiveness.

                    We should not have had dialogue with MP until after they repented and got out of Ecumenism. They know what is expected. If they were a true Church
                    repentence would have been the first thing a true Church would do after becoming "free".

                    Those faithful who discern what is going on should look to where they will turn
                    when these things come to fruition.

                    Michael N.

                    byakimov@... wrote:
                    http://www.rusk.ru/newsdata.php?idar=311190

                    http://www.rusk.ru/st.php?idar=1000847 (below)




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                  • michael nikitin
                    Mr.Kozyreff is correct. Because of our sins this is happening. Our lack of prayer is surely the cause of these problems. The MP somehow manages to look like
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 24, 2003
                      Mr.Kozyreff is correct. Because of our sins this is
                      happening.

                      Our lack of prayer is surely the cause of these
                      problems.

                      The MP somehow manages to look like the Mother Church
                      as they and some in ROCOR(L) call them. Instead of
                      them repenting,ROCOR(L) is. But again as Mr.Kozyreff said, it is not
                      the MP who is causing this. It is us.

                      Why weren't the French given dialogue, but the MP was?
                      Bigger is given precedence over their own children?

                      The bishops of ROCOR(L) didn't even visit *one* of their own
                      parish in Russia. Do they really care about us or are they looking
                      for World Orthodoxy? Don't kid yourself. We all know the answer which is indicative by their deeds.

                      Michael N.


                      boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                      <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                      > Let's not kid ourselves. By this time next year, if not sooner, we
                      will
                      > be concelebrating with the MP. One doesn't have to be a profit to
                      see this.
                      > Then we will pray with OCA, after we ask them forgiveness.
                      >
                      > We should not have had dialogue with MP until after they repented
                      and got out of Ecumenism. They know what is expected. If they were a
                      true Church
                      > repentence would have been the first thing a true Church would do
                      after becoming "free".
                      >
                      > Those faithful who discern what is going on should look to where
                      they will turn
                      > when these things come to fruition.
                      >
                      > Michael N.


                      I know I'll regret taking this bait, and I wouldn't except to take
                      exception to this last sentence. Mr Nikitin, it sounds like you are
                      either organizing a new schism or trying to rally people toward an
                      existing one!! Instead of 'discerning' and offering your prophecies
                      (you mean PROPHET not PROFIT), why don't you spend some time praying
                      and asking forgiveness yourself! Who among us is without sin?

                      --elizabeth



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                    • michael nikitin
                      There is an old Indian saying, white man speak with forked tongue . We shall see next year. As I remember a couple of years ago our bishops said that union
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 25, 2003
                        There is an old Indian saying," white man speak with forked tongue".

                        We shall see next year. As I remember a couple of years ago our bishops said
                        that union will not be soon when ROCOR(V) left.

                        They were right.....union not soon enough!

                        Michael N.


                        cantor71 <gskok@...> wrote:
                        I am at a loss about the "profit" you speak of.

                        On the other hand, there is a very spiritually consoling statement
                        by Vl. Lavr on the Synod website - I hope it comes out in English
                        soon!

                        http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/Novosti-2003/mLavr_Nov21.html

                        Mike, since you read Russian, it will be clear to you.

                        George

                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                        <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                        One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.




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                      • michael nikitin
                        There is an old Indian saying, white man speak with forked tongue . We shall see next year. As I remember a couple of years ago our bishops said that union
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 25, 2003
                          There is an old Indian saying," white man speak with forked tongue".

                          We shall see next year. As I remember a couple of years ago our bishops said
                          that union will not be soon when those in ROCOR(V) left.

                          They were right.......not soon enough!

                          Michael N.


                          cantor71 <gskok@...> wrote:
                          I am at a loss about the "profit" you speak of.

                          On the other hand, there is a very spiritually consoling statement
                          by Vl. Lavr on the Synod website - I hope it comes out in English
                          soon!

                          http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/Novosti-2003/mLavr_Nov21.html

                          Mike, since you read Russian, it will be clear to you.

                          George

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                          <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                          One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.





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                        • vkozyreff
                          Dear Michael, I do not think that the union is for tomorrow. I believe that the protests that we have seen and read will not stop them but will slow down their
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 26, 2003
                            Dear Michael,

                            I do not think that the union is for tomorrow. I believe that the
                            protests that we have seen and read will not stop them but will slow
                            down their pace.

                            A knowledgeable observer remarked the following:

                            "I really believe they are not going to unite now... the plan is to
                            be in Eucharistic communion with some kind of "autonomy" or at
                            least "intermingling" They know people are not happy so they will
                            push the extreme so as to get the compromise they really wanted. We
                            are dealing with some very clever fellows here and most of their
                            flock are just (forgive me) "herd members..." Unable to think for
                            themselves or have the courage to pray in one's heart or in a small
                            group".

                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff





                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                            <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                            > There is an old Indian saying," white man speak with forked tongue".
                            >
                            > We shall see next year. As I remember a couple of years ago our
                            bishops said
                            > that union will not be soon when ROCOR(V) left.
                            >
                            > They were right.....union not soon enough!
                            >
                            > Michael N.
                            >
                            >
                            > cantor71 <gskok@r...> wrote:
                            > I am at a loss about the "profit" you speak of.
                            >
                            > On the other hand, there is a very spiritually consoling statement
                            > by Vl. Lavr on the Synod website - I hope it comes out in English
                            > soon!
                            >
                            > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/Novosti-2003/mLavr_Nov21.html
                            >
                            > Mike, since you read Russian, it will be clear to you.
                            >
                            > George
                            >
                            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                            > <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                            > One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
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                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • boulia_1
                            What do ROCOR (V) and (L) mean? These look like Roman numerals 5 and 50 to me. -elizabeth ... bishops said
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 28, 2003
                              What do ROCOR "(V)" and "(L)" mean? These look like Roman
                              numerals "5" and "50" to me.

                              -elizabeth

                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                              <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                              > There is an old Indian saying," white man speak with forked tongue".
                              >
                              > We shall see next year. As I remember a couple of years ago our
                              bishops said
                              > that union will not be soon when ROCOR(V) left.
                              >
                              > They were right.....union not soon enough!
                              >
                              > Michael N.
                              >
                              >
                              > cantor71 <gskok@r...> wrote:
                              > I am at a loss about the "profit" you speak of.
                              >
                              > On the other hand, there is a very spiritually consoling statement
                              > by Vl. Lavr on the Synod website - I hope it comes out in English
                              > soon!
                              >
                              > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/Novosti-2003/mLavr_Nov21.html
                              >
                              > Mike, since you read Russian, it will be clear to you.
                              >
                              > George
                              >
                              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                              > <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                              > One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Do you Yahoo!?
                              > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Wally Wally
                              ROCOR (V) = VITALY ROCOR (L) = LAURUS boulia_1 wrote: What do ROCOR (V) and (L) mean? These look like Roman numerals 5 and 50
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 28, 2003
                                ROCOR (V) = VITALY
                                ROCOR (L) = LAURUS

                                boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                                What do ROCOR "(V)" and "(L)" mean? These look like Roman
                                numerals "5" and "50" to me.

                                -elizabeth

                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                                > There is an old Indian saying," white man speak with forked tongue".
                                >
                                > We shall see next year. As I remember a couple of years ago our
                                bishops said
                                > that union will not be soon when ROCOR(V) left.
                                >
                                > They were right.....union not soon enough!
                                >
                                > Michael N.
                                >
                                >
                                > cantor71 <gskok@r...> wrote:
                                > I am at a loss about the "profit" you speak of.
                                >
                                > On the other hand, there is a very spiritually consoling statement
                                > by Vl. Lavr on the Synod website - I hope it comes out in English
                                > soon!
                                >
                                > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/Novosti-2003/mLavr_Nov21.html
                                >
                                > Mike, since you read Russian, it will be clear to you.
                                >
                                > George
                                >
                                > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                > <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                                > One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                              • boulia_1
                                Oh... so, we can also refer to ROCOR during the era of Met. Philaret as ROCOR (P) ? Or maybe ROCOR (F) since some people might spell it Filaret. How can we
                                Message 15 of 20 , Nov 28, 2003
                                  Oh... so, we can also refer to ROCOR during the era of Met. Philaret
                                  as "ROCOR (P)"? Or maybe "ROCOR (F)" since some people might spell
                                  it Filaret.

                                  How can we distinguish "Anastassy" and "Anthony"?? They even have
                                  the same SECOND letter, so that's tricky, huh? Perhaps "A-1" (like
                                  the steak sauce) and "A2"...


                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Wally Wally <couckla@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > ROCOR (V) = VITALY
                                  > ROCOR (L) = LAURUS
                                  >
                                  > boulia_1 <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                                  > What do ROCOR "(V)" and "(L)" mean? These look like Roman
                                  > numerals "5" and "50" to me.
                                  >
                                  > -elizabeth
                                  >
                                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                  > <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                                  > > There is an old Indian saying," white man speak with forked
                                  tongue".
                                  > >
                                  > > We shall see next year. As I remember a couple of years ago our
                                  > bishops said
                                  > > that union will not be soon when ROCOR(V) left.
                                  > >
                                  > > They were right.....union not soon enough!
                                  > >
                                  > > Michael N.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > cantor71 <gskok@r...> wrote:
                                  > > I am at a loss about the "profit" you speak of.
                                  > >
                                  > > On the other hand, there is a very spiritually consoling
                                  statement
                                  > > by Vl. Lavr on the Synod website - I hope it comes out in English
                                  > > soon!
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/Novosti-2003/mLavr_Nov21.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Mike, since you read Russian, it will be clear to you.
                                  > >
                                  > > George
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                  > > <nikitinmike@y...> wrote:
                                  > > One doesn't have to be a profit to see this.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                  > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • orthodoxchurch_sg
                                  ... Meaningless. But Legitimate and Vagante could be appropriate. God bless / Fr Daniel
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Nov 28, 2003
                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > What do ROCOR "(V)" and "(L)" mean? These look like Roman
                                    > numerals "5" and "50" to me.
                                    >
                                    > -elizabeth
                                    >
                                    Meaningless. But Legitimate and Vagante could be appropriate.
                                    God bless / Fr Daniel
                                  • sputnikpsalomschchika
                                    ... 5 and 50 to me. ... Even as an ousider, it looks to me like someone is trying desperatley to imply V = [Metropolitan] Vitaly and L = [Metropolitan]
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Nov 28, 2003
                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                                      <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > What do ROCOR "(V)" and "(L)" mean? These look like Roman numerals
                                      "5" and "50" to me.
                                      > >
                                      > > -elizabeth
                                      > >

                                      Even as an ousider, it looks to me like someone is trying desperatley
                                      to imply V = [Metropolitan] Vitaly and L = [Metropolitan] Laurus. To
                                      what end means beats me, however. It's out of context and devisive.

                                      Reader Michael Malloy
                                      Columbus Ohio
                                    • Elena Baranov
                                      In view of the recent published interviews given by Archbishop Mark and Archpriest Peter Holodny to various Russian media and taking into account various
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Nov 29, 2003
                                        In view of the recent published interviews given by Archbishop Mark and Archpriest Peter Holodny to various Russian media and taking into account various actions by ROCOR bishops visiting Moscow (actions which have been filmed and broadcast over various Russian TV news programs), Metroplitan Laurus's statement appears to be a case of disingenuous backtracking.

                                        When read in Russian, said statement makes one wonder if Metropolitan Laurus is not well and is not even aware of what is going on ...

                                        EAB
                                        >
                                        > cantor71 <gskok@r...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On the other hand, there is a very spiritually consoling statement
                                        > by Vl. Lavr on the Synod website - I hope it comes out in English
                                        > soon!
                                        >
                                        > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/Novosti-2003/mLavr_Nov21.html
                                        >
                                        >




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • cantor71
                                        Well, really? One wonders if the Metropolitan is not well and is not even aware of what is going on. It seems that you have decided he is not *your*
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Nov 29, 2003
                                          Well, really? One wonders if the Metropolitan is "not well and is
                                          not even aware of what is going on."

                                          It seems that you have decided he is not *your* Metropolitan. And on
                                          a ROCA members and friends group!

                                          So it may, in fact, all depend what one is hoping for. Yet here
                                          where I live I have seen that the effect of Vladyka's statement has
                                          been, on the most ardent obviously-FSB-inspired unionists, to slow
                                          them down and give them reason to think things through, and on the
                                          most determined anti-MP aka KGB aka anti-ecclesiastical virus of the
                                          day types, to give them hope that what happens next may be orderly.

                                          This seems to be consoling, calming and welcome, does it not? I am
                                          surprised, Dr. Baranova, that your reaction has been to so harshly
                                          criticize the First Hierarch when he may have - can you imagine -
                                          actually helped. Do you know him or is it good enough for you to
                                          attack him from a comfortable, distant position?

                                          George




                                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Elena Baranov"
                                          <sungari2@m...> wrote:
                                          > In view of the recent published interviews given by Archbishop
                                          Mark and Archpriest Peter Holodny to various Russian media and
                                          taking into account various actions by ROCOR bishops visiting Moscow
                                          (actions which have been filmed and broadcast over various Russian
                                          TV news programs), Metroplitan Laurus's statement appears to be a
                                          case of disingenuous backtracking.
                                          >
                                          > When read in Russian, said statement makes one wonder if
                                          Metropolitan Laurus is not well and is not even aware of what is
                                          going on ...
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Elena Baranov
                                          As an academic, I have a habit of paying attention to facts and material evidence. If you know Russian well enough, I suggest you read the interviews given by
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Nov 30, 2003
                                            As an academic, I have a habit of paying attention to facts and material evidence. If you know Russian well enough, I suggest you read the interviews given by Archbishop Mark and Rev. Peter Holodny during their visit to Moscow and reported extensively in Pravoslavie.ru, Kommersant, Nezavisimaya Gazeta, Pravda and Russkaya Linia.

                                            When official representatives of a church or any other organization travel on offficial business to conduct meetings, etc. with another organization and then make public statements concerning results of said meetings, it is assumed that such statements have been previously approved and, in fact, reflect the views and position of their respective organizations. Statement from MP representatives are basically consistent with the positions held by MP. Unfortunately, there was no such consistency on the part of ROCOR and the disavowal statement by Metropolitan Laurus (November 21, 2003) only added to the existing state of confusion.

                                            My statement concerning Metropolitan's health was not criticism, it is a fact that Metropolitan Laurus has had health problems for some time. Not too long ago, Metropolitan Laurus was admitted to one of the best hospitals in Boston where he had undergone surgery for a brain tumor. His condition was very serious and this was a known fact in the Russian community. During his hospital stay, Metropolitan Laurus had visitors from the Holy Epiphany parish, including Russian Sunday school carolers who came to the hospital to cheer him up on Nativity feast. Then there was another Boston hospital stay.

                                            What does -- "obviously-FSB inspired unionists" ??? "anti-MP aka KGB aka anti-ecclesiastical virus" mean or have anything to do with anything ??? Sounds as if a computer virus has taken hold of the spellcheck function ....

                                            EAB
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: cantor71
                                            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 11:39 PM
                                            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCA Bishops ask forgiveness from "Mother Church"!


                                            Well, really? One wonders if the Metropolitan is "not well and is
                                            not even aware of what is going on."

                                            It seems that you have decided he is not *your* Metropolitan. And on
                                            a ROCA members and friends group!

                                            So it may, in fact, all depend what one is hoping for. Yet here
                                            where I live I have seen that the effect of Vladyka's statement has
                                            been, on the most ardent obviously-FSB-inspired unionists, to slow
                                            them down and give them reason to think things through, and on the
                                            most determined anti-MP aka KGB aka anti-ecclesiastical virus of the
                                            day types, to give them hope that what happens next may be orderly.

                                            This seems to be consoling, calming and welcome, does it not? I am
                                            surprised, Dr. Baranova, that your reaction has been to so harshly
                                            criticize the First Hierarch when he may have - can you imagine -
                                            actually helped. Do you know him or is it good enough for you to
                                            attack him from a comfortable, distant position?

                                            George




                                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Elena Baranov"
                                            <sungari2@m...> wrote:
                                            > In view of the recent published interviews given by Archbishop
                                            Mark and Archpriest Peter Holodny to various Russian media and
                                            taking into account various actions by ROCOR bishops visiting Moscow
                                            (actions which have been filmed and broadcast over various Russian
                                            TV news programs), Metroplitan Laurus's statement appears to be a
                                            case of disingenuous backtracking.
                                            >
                                            > When read in Russian, said statement makes one wonder if
                                            Metropolitan Laurus is not well and is not even aware of what is
                                            going on ...
                                            >
                                            >


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