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Re: [orthodox-synod] A Path to least Resistance: Negotiations of Existence

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  • michael nikitin
    Fr.John, Fr.Alexander and those with like mind in ROCOR, invoke the Ukaze #362 of Patr. Tikhon as the reason for union with MP. This means that ROCOR should
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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      Fr.John, Fr.Alexander and those with like mind in
      ROCOR, invoke the Ukaze #362 of Patr. Tikhon as the
      reason for union with MP.

      This means that ROCOR should cease to exist. If not,
      then ROCOR is not following the Ukaze,but only taking
      the part they want to follow.

      Michael N.


      "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:Fr. John Shaw had written:

      > > ROCOR will also *not* cease to exist if relations with the central
      > > Church administration in Russia are finally normalized.

      Nick Zaharov wrote:

      > As many archpriests have written on this list, the nature of the
      ROCOR is
      > temporary. Thus, it reasons, if the ROCOR and MP are united, there
      should be but
      > one Russian Church, headed by one Patriarch. If at that time others
      desire
      > their own "local" church, they will have the option of joining the
      OCA.

      JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with "one
      Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
      autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
      administrative decisions.

      "Joining the OCA" would not be an option, as I see it, for the
      following reasons:

      1) The OCA claims to be a Local Church *for America*, whereas ROCOR has
      been an administration of the Russian Church throughout what used to be
      called the "Free World". Why should dioceses in Germany or
      Australia "join the OCA"?

      2) Most people who identify with ROCOR would not want to join the OCA
      in any case.

      3) The question of the 1970 "Autocephaly" remains open, since this
      autocephaly pronouncement was never accepted by the Greek Churches, or
      by ROCOR, and faces some opposition even within the MP.

      Historically, the OCA has "Russian Orthodox" roots, and one might hope
      eventually to see it return to being part of one Russian Church --
      under the Patriarch of Moscow, as another autonomous exarchate, albeit
      with its own American goals.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw




      ---------------------------------
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Hristofor
      I think Fr John said that ROCOR would evolve into an exarchate of Russian parishes in the Diaspora, hence it would no longer exist in said form. Before the
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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        I think Fr John said that ROCOR would evolve into an exarchate of Russian
        parishes in the Diaspora, hence it would no longer exist in said form.


        Before the revolution, the only Russian parishes outside of Russia were the
        Holy Land, in the Americas (started by Russian immigrants) and the "spa"
        parishes (founded by the Royal Family or the nobility) in Baden Baden, Sane
        Remo, Nice, plus the others in Paris, Vienna, Berlin etc. After the
        revolution, the number of parishes increased greatly. Since the Russian
        Diaspora has not returned en masse to Russia and since there are still new
        immigrants who need to be served spiritually, the need for dioceses outside
        of Russia does exist and the existing ROCOR diocesean structure could be
        used as a model.

        It never ceases to amaze me the number of people that seemed to be locked
        in a time capsule and are removed from the reality of the events and times
        which have changed around them.

        Hristofor

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • podnoss
        ... groceries, I ... Church s ... celebrating ... Russian Church (Moscow ... Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical paradox. Thus,
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
          >
          > On a side note, yesterday while waiting in line to pay for my
          groceries, I
          > flipped through a Newsweek journal. In it, it noted the Russian
          Church's
          > opposition to Halloween. I read some articles on the Internet that
          celebrating
          > Halloween in Moscow was banned because of the protests of the
          Russian Church (Moscow
          > Patriarchate). The Evil One cannot be pleased with that.
          >
          > Yours in Christ,
          > Priest Victor Boldewskul


          Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
          paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
          monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
          former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
          crimes.
        • Hristofor
          ... With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev s son-in-law, the Caucescus, Erich Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my knowledge,
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 11, 2003
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            At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
            >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
            >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
            >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
            >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
            >crimes.
            With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the Caucescus, Erich
            Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my knowledge,
            communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-pact
            countries either.

            That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
            articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would actually
            reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+ million
            communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to Mars?" What
            do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed on, a
            portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have repackaged
            themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall Soviet times
            as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a portion of
            these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not yet full
            CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right there)
            and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology for the
            CPSU, but just a simple reality check.

            Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops lined up.
            What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die during
            WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.

            The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
            everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows those
            who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
            collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to Him alone.

            Hristofor

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ourlittlecity@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/11/2003 3:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yes, we live in evil times, our faith is low and few can believe that repentance on such a
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 11, 2003
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              In a message dated 11/11/2003 3:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              hristofor@... writes:


              > The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
              > everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows those
              > who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
              > collapse of the USSR, judgment and punishment should be left to Him alone.
              >
              > Hristofor
              >

              Yes, we live in evil times, our faith is low and few can believe that
              repentance on such a large scale that the word pervasive and everywhere can ever be
              descriptive of modern nations. The reality may be that everywhere we have lost
              the ability to experience repentance in a pervasive manner?

              reader john dunn


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • podnoss
              ... and ... As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin s policies are confused. As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the new
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 12, 2003
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                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                > > Why would Vladimir Putin care if there is a
                > > > division in Church hierarchy?
                >
                > JRS: Because he is a person who has returned to his Orthodox roots,
                and
                > has become interested and concerned about "all this".
                >

                As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin's policies are confused.
                As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the
                new Russian nation-state needs to seek legitimacy from its imperial
                and Soviet past, not from Christ's Church. This is clearly President
                Vladimir Putin's preference, as seen in the continued use of the
                Russian double-headed eagle and the music of the Soviet anthem.




                > > > Just a few years ago MP Alexi II was interviewed he
                considered
                > > > ROCOR schismatic and uncannonical not really worth his effort!
                >
                > JRS: I believe that is a bit exaggerated. You do not specify which
                > interview this was, and the Patriarch has been interviewed on the
                > subject many times. He has always indicated a desire to see
                > reconciliation, but about 10 years ago, under Metropolitan Vitaly,
                this
                > appeared virtually hopeless.
                >
                >
              • podnoss
                To the moderatorsat orthodox-synod: You re pretty much bound to censor this post as well. In the context of this entire thread your methods serve no
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 12, 2003
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                  To the moderatorsat orthodox-synod: You're pretty much bound to
                  censor this post as well. In the context of this entire thread your
                  methods serve no explanatory role.


                  Between 1945 & 1967 collectively over 86 000 Nazi criminals were
                  convicted in West Germany. No comparable numbers exist in Post-Soviet
                  Russia.

                  Again, if you really knew what Stalin did to the Chechens, & if you
                  felt that it was a terrible crime against the Chechen people, it is
                  not only Mr. V. V. Putin who would be unable to do the same things
                  now, but you & yours also would be unable to sit back & write what
                  you write with equanimity.

                  At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                  >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                  >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                  >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                  >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                  >crimes.
                  With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the Caucescus,
                  Erich
                  Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my
                  knowledge,
                  communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-
                  pact
                  countries either.

                  That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                  articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would
                  actually
                  reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+
                  million
                  communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to
                  Mars?" What
                  do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed
                  on, a
                  portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have repackaged
                  themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall Soviet
                  times
                  as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a
                  portion of
                  these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not yet
                  full
                  CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right
                  there)
                  and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology for
                  the
                  CPSU, but just a simple reality check.

                  Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops lined
                  up.
                  What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die
                  during
                  WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.

                  The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                  everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows
                  those
                  who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
                  collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to Him
                  alone.

                  Hristofor





                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
                  wrote:
                  > At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                  > >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                  > >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                  > >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                  > >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                  > >crimes.
                  > With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the
                  Caucescus, Erich
                  > Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my
                  knowledge,
                  > communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-
                  pact
                  > countries either.
                  >
                  > That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                  > articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would
                  actually
                  > reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+
                  million
                  > communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to
                  Mars?" What
                  > do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed
                  on, a
                  > portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have
                  repackaged
                  > themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall
                  Soviet times
                  > as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a
                  portion of
                  > these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not
                  yet full
                  > CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right
                  there)
                  > and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology
                  for the
                  > CPSU, but just a simple reality check.
                  >
                  > Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops
                  lined up.
                  > What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die
                  during
                  > WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.
                  >
                  > The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                  > everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows
                  those
                  > who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after
                  the
                  > collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to
                  Him alone.
                  >
                  > Hristofor
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • V. Boitchenko
                  This is a rediculous statement. Russian Federation by its Constitution is a secular state and it has no secular past other than imperial and soviet. Render
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 13, 2003
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                    This is a rediculous statement. Russian Federation by its Constitution is "a secular state" and it has no secular past other than imperial and soviet. Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's.

                    Viatcheslav

                    As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin's policies are confused.
                    As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the
                    new Russian nation-state needs to seek legitimacy from its imperial
                    and Soviet past, not from Christ's Church. This is clearly President
                    Vladimir Putin's preference, as seen in the continued use of the
                    Russian double-headed eagle and the music of the Soviet anthem.




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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