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Re: A Path to least Resistance: Negotiations of Existence

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  • Kenneth Doll
    FWIW, I am in the same diocese as Fr. John, and my priest just, published a request, in our latest weekly bulletin, from the recent clergy conference that
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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      FWIW, I am in the same diocese as Fr. John, and my priest just,
      published a request, in our latest weekly bulletin, from the
      recent clergy conference that specifically requested input from
      laity regarding the upcoming January meeting between Patriarch
      Alexi and Metropolitan Laurus.

      This seems quite far from a "gag" order to me.

      In Christ,
      Kenneth Doll

      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:

      > > > I suggest everyone read "WHY NOW" by Archpriest Peter
      Perekrestov
      > > > it was published in Orthodox Life, Vol.44, No. 6, Nov-Dec,
      1994. I
      > > > would be interested to see if Fr. Peter would write a follow
      up,
      > but
      > > > given the supposed gag order `on not to talk about' the
      `proposed
      > > > negotiations.'
      >
      > JRS: Where do you get this "gag order"? Nobody has said anything to
      me
      > about it. In fact, my impression is that the hierarchy are quite
      > interested in hearing what we have to say.
      >
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
    • michael nikitin
      Fr.John, Fr.Alexander and those with like mind in ROCOR, invoke the Ukaze #362 of Patr. Tikhon as the reason for union with MP. This means that ROCOR should
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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        Fr.John, Fr.Alexander and those with like mind in
        ROCOR, invoke the Ukaze #362 of Patr. Tikhon as the
        reason for union with MP.

        This means that ROCOR should cease to exist. If not,
        then ROCOR is not following the Ukaze,but only taking
        the part they want to follow.

        Michael N.


        "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:Fr. John Shaw had written:

        > > ROCOR will also *not* cease to exist if relations with the central
        > > Church administration in Russia are finally normalized.

        Nick Zaharov wrote:

        > As many archpriests have written on this list, the nature of the
        ROCOR is
        > temporary. Thus, it reasons, if the ROCOR and MP are united, there
        should be but
        > one Russian Church, headed by one Patriarch. If at that time others
        desire
        > their own "local" church, they will have the option of joining the
        OCA.

        JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with "one
        Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
        autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
        administrative decisions.

        "Joining the OCA" would not be an option, as I see it, for the
        following reasons:

        1) The OCA claims to be a Local Church *for America*, whereas ROCOR has
        been an administration of the Russian Church throughout what used to be
        called the "Free World". Why should dioceses in Germany or
        Australia "join the OCA"?

        2) Most people who identify with ROCOR would not want to join the OCA
        in any case.

        3) The question of the 1970 "Autocephaly" remains open, since this
        autocephaly pronouncement was never accepted by the Greek Churches, or
        by ROCOR, and faces some opposition even within the MP.

        Historically, the OCA has "Russian Orthodox" roots, and one might hope
        eventually to see it return to being part of one Russian Church --
        under the Patriarch of Moscow, as another autonomous exarchate, albeit
        with its own American goals.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw




        ---------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Hristofor
        I think Fr John said that ROCOR would evolve into an exarchate of Russian parishes in the Diaspora, hence it would no longer exist in said form. Before the
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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          I think Fr John said that ROCOR would evolve into an exarchate of Russian
          parishes in the Diaspora, hence it would no longer exist in said form.


          Before the revolution, the only Russian parishes outside of Russia were the
          Holy Land, in the Americas (started by Russian immigrants) and the "spa"
          parishes (founded by the Royal Family or the nobility) in Baden Baden, Sane
          Remo, Nice, plus the others in Paris, Vienna, Berlin etc. After the
          revolution, the number of parishes increased greatly. Since the Russian
          Diaspora has not returned en masse to Russia and since there are still new
          immigrants who need to be served spiritually, the need for dioceses outside
          of Russia does exist and the existing ROCOR diocesean structure could be
          used as a model.

          It never ceases to amaze me the number of people that seemed to be locked
          in a time capsule and are removed from the reality of the events and times
          which have changed around them.

          Hristofor

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • podnoss
          ... groceries, I ... Church s ... celebrating ... Russian Church (Moscow ... Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical paradox. Thus,
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
            >
            > On a side note, yesterday while waiting in line to pay for my
            groceries, I
            > flipped through a Newsweek journal. In it, it noted the Russian
            Church's
            > opposition to Halloween. I read some articles on the Internet that
            celebrating
            > Halloween in Moscow was banned because of the protests of the
            Russian Church (Moscow
            > Patriarchate). The Evil One cannot be pleased with that.
            >
            > Yours in Christ,
            > Priest Victor Boldewskul


            Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
            paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
            monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
            former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
            crimes.
          • Hristofor
            ... With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev s son-in-law, the Caucescus, Erich Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my knowledge,
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 11, 2003
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              At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
              >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
              >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
              >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
              >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
              >crimes.
              With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the Caucescus, Erich
              Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my knowledge,
              communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-pact
              countries either.

              That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
              articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would actually
              reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+ million
              communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to Mars?" What
              do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed on, a
              portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have repackaged
              themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall Soviet times
              as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a portion of
              these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not yet full
              CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right there)
              and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology for the
              CPSU, but just a simple reality check.

              Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops lined up.
              What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die during
              WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.

              The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
              everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows those
              who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
              collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to Him alone.

              Hristofor

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ourlittlecity@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/11/2003 3:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yes, we live in evil times, our faith is low and few can believe that repentance on such a
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 11, 2003
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                In a message dated 11/11/2003 3:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                hristofor@... writes:


                > The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                > everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows those
                > who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
                > collapse of the USSR, judgment and punishment should be left to Him alone.
                >
                > Hristofor
                >

                Yes, we live in evil times, our faith is low and few can believe that
                repentance on such a large scale that the word pervasive and everywhere can ever be
                descriptive of modern nations. The reality may be that everywhere we have lost
                the ability to experience repentance in a pervasive manner?

                reader john dunn


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • podnoss
                ... and ... As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin s policies are confused. As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the new
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 12, 2003
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                  <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                  > > Why would Vladimir Putin care if there is a
                  > > > division in Church hierarchy?
                  >
                  > JRS: Because he is a person who has returned to his Orthodox roots,
                  and
                  > has become interested and concerned about "all this".
                  >

                  As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin's policies are confused.
                  As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the
                  new Russian nation-state needs to seek legitimacy from its imperial
                  and Soviet past, not from Christ's Church. This is clearly President
                  Vladimir Putin's preference, as seen in the continued use of the
                  Russian double-headed eagle and the music of the Soviet anthem.




                  > > > Just a few years ago MP Alexi II was interviewed he
                  considered
                  > > > ROCOR schismatic and uncannonical not really worth his effort!
                  >
                  > JRS: I believe that is a bit exaggerated. You do not specify which
                  > interview this was, and the Patriarch has been interviewed on the
                  > subject many times. He has always indicated a desire to see
                  > reconciliation, but about 10 years ago, under Metropolitan Vitaly,
                  this
                  > appeared virtually hopeless.
                  >
                  >
                • podnoss
                  To the moderatorsat orthodox-synod: You re pretty much bound to censor this post as well. In the context of this entire thread your methods serve no
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 12, 2003
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                    To the moderatorsat orthodox-synod: You're pretty much bound to
                    censor this post as well. In the context of this entire thread your
                    methods serve no explanatory role.


                    Between 1945 & 1967 collectively over 86 000 Nazi criminals were
                    convicted in West Germany. No comparable numbers exist in Post-Soviet
                    Russia.

                    Again, if you really knew what Stalin did to the Chechens, & if you
                    felt that it was a terrible crime against the Chechen people, it is
                    not only Mr. V. V. Putin who would be unable to do the same things
                    now, but you & yours also would be unable to sit back & write what
                    you write with equanimity.

                    At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                    >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                    >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                    >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                    >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                    >crimes.
                    With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the Caucescus,
                    Erich
                    Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my
                    knowledge,
                    communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-
                    pact
                    countries either.

                    That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                    articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would
                    actually
                    reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+
                    million
                    communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to
                    Mars?" What
                    do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed
                    on, a
                    portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have repackaged
                    themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall Soviet
                    times
                    as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a
                    portion of
                    these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not yet
                    full
                    CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right
                    there)
                    and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology for
                    the
                    CPSU, but just a simple reality check.

                    Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops lined
                    up.
                    What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die
                    during
                    WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.

                    The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                    everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows
                    those
                    who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
                    collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to Him
                    alone.

                    Hristofor





                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
                    wrote:
                    > At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                    > >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                    > >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                    > >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                    > >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                    > >crimes.
                    > With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the
                    Caucescus, Erich
                    > Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my
                    knowledge,
                    > communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-
                    pact
                    > countries either.
                    >
                    > That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                    > articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would
                    actually
                    > reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+
                    million
                    > communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to
                    Mars?" What
                    > do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed
                    on, a
                    > portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have
                    repackaged
                    > themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall
                    Soviet times
                    > as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a
                    portion of
                    > these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not
                    yet full
                    > CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right
                    there)
                    > and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology
                    for the
                    > CPSU, but just a simple reality check.
                    >
                    > Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops
                    lined up.
                    > What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die
                    during
                    > WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.
                    >
                    > The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                    > everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows
                    those
                    > who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after
                    the
                    > collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to
                    Him alone.
                    >
                    > Hristofor
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • V. Boitchenko
                    This is a rediculous statement. Russian Federation by its Constitution is a secular state and it has no secular past other than imperial and soviet. Render
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 13, 2003
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                      This is a rediculous statement. Russian Federation by its Constitution is "a secular state" and it has no secular past other than imperial and soviet. Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's.

                      Viatcheslav

                      As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin's policies are confused.
                      As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the
                      new Russian nation-state needs to seek legitimacy from its imperial
                      and Soviet past, not from Christ's Church. This is clearly President
                      Vladimir Putin's preference, as seen in the continued use of the
                      Russian double-headed eagle and the music of the Soviet anthem.




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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