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Re: A Path to least Resistance: Negotiations of Existence

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  • Graham (Elias) Reeves
    Reader Timothy, Fr.Peter Perekrestov will be speaking at the Clergy conference in Nyack, perhaps he ll be able to elaborate on some of those questions. He
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 7, 2003
      Reader Timothy,

      Fr.Peter Perekrestov will be speaking at the Clergy conference in
      Nyack, perhaps he'll be able to elaborate on some of those
      questions. He might also have something to say about whether his
      views have evolved due to the events of the last nine years since
      that article.

      His talk is entitled:
      "St. John (Maximovich) the Miracle-worker's View of the Russian
      Church in the 20th Century" This should be interesting.

      You're right, we should definitely be praying for our bishops right
      now.

      -Elias in Michigan
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... ROCOR is ... should be but ... desire ... OCA. JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with one Russian Church , and one Patriarch,
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 9, 2003
        Fr. John Shaw had written:

        > > ROCOR will also *not* cease to exist if relations with the central
        > > Church administration in Russia are finally normalized.

        Nick Zaharov wrote:

        > As many archpriests have written on this list, the nature of the
        ROCOR is
        > temporary. Thus, it reasons, if the ROCOR and MP are united, there
        should be but
        > one Russian Church, headed by one Patriarch. If at that time others
        desire
        > their own "local" church, they will have the option of joining the
        OCA.

        JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with "one
        Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
        autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
        administrative decisions.

        "Joining the OCA" would not be an option, as I see it, for the
        following reasons:

        1) The OCA claims to be a Local Church *for America*, whereas ROCOR has
        been an administration of the Russian Church throughout what used to be
        called the "Free World". Why should dioceses in Germany or
        Australia "join the OCA"?

        2) Most people who identify with ROCOR would not want to join the OCA
        in any case.

        3) The question of the 1970 "Autocephaly" remains open, since this
        autocephaly pronouncement was never accepted by the Greek Churches, or
        by ROCOR, and faces some opposition even within the MP.

        Historically, the OCA has "Russian Orthodox" roots, and one might hope
        eventually to see it return to being part of one Russian Church --
        under the Patriarch of Moscow, as another autonomous exarchate, albeit
        with its own American goals.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • for4z@aol.com
        In a message dated 11/9/2003 5:27:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... Would the Patriarch be commemorated? Do you envision something similar to the Church of
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 9, 2003
          In a message dated 11/9/2003 5:27:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
          vrevjrs@... writes:


          > JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with "one
          > Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
          > autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
          > administrative decisions.
          >

          Would the Patriarch be commemorated? Do you envision something similar to
          the Church of Ukraine or Byelorus, or something similar to the OCA?

          Thank you,
          -Nick Zaharov


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... with one ... similar to ... JRS: The Patriarch, logically, should be commemorated once relations had been normalized, since the phrase The Orthodox
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 9, 2003
            Fr. John R. Shaw had written:

            > > JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship
            with "one
            > > Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
            > > autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
            > > administrative decisions.

            Nick Zaharov wrote:

            > Would the Patriarch be commemorated? Do you envision something
            similar to
            > the Church of Ukraine or Byelorus, or something similar to the OCA?

            JRS: The Patriarch, logically, should be commemorated once relations
            had been normalized, since the phrase "The Orthodox episcopate of the
            Russian Church" originated as a substitute for the name of the
            Patriarch, in a period when there was neither a Patriarch nor a "Locum
            Tenens".

            The OCA claims *autocephaly*, but ROCOR never has claimed to be
            anything other than "the free part of the Russian Church".

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • Kenneth Doll
            FWIW, I am in the same diocese as Fr. John, and my priest just, published a request, in our latest weekly bulletin, from the recent clergy conference that
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
              FWIW, I am in the same diocese as Fr. John, and my priest just,
              published a request, in our latest weekly bulletin, from the
              recent clergy conference that specifically requested input from
              laity regarding the upcoming January meeting between Patriarch
              Alexi and Metropolitan Laurus.

              This seems quite far from a "gag" order to me.

              In Christ,
              Kenneth Doll

              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
              <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:

              > > > I suggest everyone read "WHY NOW" by Archpriest Peter
              Perekrestov
              > > > it was published in Orthodox Life, Vol.44, No. 6, Nov-Dec,
              1994. I
              > > > would be interested to see if Fr. Peter would write a follow
              up,
              > but
              > > > given the supposed gag order `on not to talk about' the
              `proposed
              > > > negotiations.'
              >
              > JRS: Where do you get this "gag order"? Nobody has said anything to
              me
              > about it. In fact, my impression is that the hierarchy are quite
              > interested in hearing what we have to say.
              >
              >
              > In Christ
              > Fr. John R. Shaw
            • michael nikitin
              Fr.John, Fr.Alexander and those with like mind in ROCOR, invoke the Ukaze #362 of Patr. Tikhon as the reason for union with MP. This means that ROCOR should
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
                Fr.John, Fr.Alexander and those with like mind in
                ROCOR, invoke the Ukaze #362 of Patr. Tikhon as the
                reason for union with MP.

                This means that ROCOR should cease to exist. If not,
                then ROCOR is not following the Ukaze,but only taking
                the part they want to follow.

                Michael N.


                "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:Fr. John Shaw had written:

                > > ROCOR will also *not* cease to exist if relations with the central
                > > Church administration in Russia are finally normalized.

                Nick Zaharov wrote:

                > As many archpriests have written on this list, the nature of the
                ROCOR is
                > temporary. Thus, it reasons, if the ROCOR and MP are united, there
                should be but
                > one Russian Church, headed by one Patriarch. If at that time others
                desire
                > their own "local" church, they will have the option of joining the
                OCA.

                JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with "one
                Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
                autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
                administrative decisions.

                "Joining the OCA" would not be an option, as I see it, for the
                following reasons:

                1) The OCA claims to be a Local Church *for America*, whereas ROCOR has
                been an administration of the Russian Church throughout what used to be
                called the "Free World". Why should dioceses in Germany or
                Australia "join the OCA"?

                2) Most people who identify with ROCOR would not want to join the OCA
                in any case.

                3) The question of the 1970 "Autocephaly" remains open, since this
                autocephaly pronouncement was never accepted by the Greek Churches, or
                by ROCOR, and faces some opposition even within the MP.

                Historically, the OCA has "Russian Orthodox" roots, and one might hope
                eventually to see it return to being part of one Russian Church --
                under the Patriarch of Moscow, as another autonomous exarchate, albeit
                with its own American goals.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw




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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Hristofor
                I think Fr John said that ROCOR would evolve into an exarchate of Russian parishes in the Diaspora, hence it would no longer exist in said form. Before the
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
                  I think Fr John said that ROCOR would evolve into an exarchate of Russian
                  parishes in the Diaspora, hence it would no longer exist in said form.


                  Before the revolution, the only Russian parishes outside of Russia were the
                  Holy Land, in the Americas (started by Russian immigrants) and the "spa"
                  parishes (founded by the Royal Family or the nobility) in Baden Baden, Sane
                  Remo, Nice, plus the others in Paris, Vienna, Berlin etc. After the
                  revolution, the number of parishes increased greatly. Since the Russian
                  Diaspora has not returned en masse to Russia and since there are still new
                  immigrants who need to be served spiritually, the need for dioceses outside
                  of Russia does exist and the existing ROCOR diocesean structure could be
                  used as a model.

                  It never ceases to amaze me the number of people that seemed to be locked
                  in a time capsule and are removed from the reality of the events and times
                  which have changed around them.

                  Hristofor

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • podnoss
                  ... groceries, I ... Church s ... celebrating ... Russian Church (Moscow ... Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical paradox. Thus,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
                    >
                    > On a side note, yesterday while waiting in line to pay for my
                    groceries, I
                    > flipped through a Newsweek journal. In it, it noted the Russian
                    Church's
                    > opposition to Halloween. I read some articles on the Internet that
                    celebrating
                    > Halloween in Moscow was banned because of the protests of the
                    Russian Church (Moscow
                    > Patriarchate). The Evil One cannot be pleased with that.
                    >
                    > Yours in Christ,
                    > Priest Victor Boldewskul


                    Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                    paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                    monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                    former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                    crimes.
                  • Hristofor
                    ... With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev s son-in-law, the Caucescus, Erich Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my knowledge,
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 11, 2003
                      At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                      >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                      >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                      >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                      >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                      >crimes.
                      With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the Caucescus, Erich
                      Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my knowledge,
                      communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-pact
                      countries either.

                      That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                      articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would actually
                      reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+ million
                      communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to Mars?" What
                      do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed on, a
                      portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have repackaged
                      themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall Soviet times
                      as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a portion of
                      these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not yet full
                      CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right there)
                      and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology for the
                      CPSU, but just a simple reality check.

                      Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops lined up.
                      What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die during
                      WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.

                      The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                      everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows those
                      who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
                      collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to Him alone.

                      Hristofor

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ourlittlecity@aol.com
                      In a message dated 11/11/2003 3:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yes, we live in evil times, our faith is low and few can believe that repentance on such a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 11, 2003
                        In a message dated 11/11/2003 3:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        hristofor@... writes:


                        > The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                        > everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows those
                        > who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
                        > collapse of the USSR, judgment and punishment should be left to Him alone.
                        >
                        > Hristofor
                        >

                        Yes, we live in evil times, our faith is low and few can believe that
                        repentance on such a large scale that the word pervasive and everywhere can ever be
                        descriptive of modern nations. The reality may be that everywhere we have lost
                        the ability to experience repentance in a pervasive manner?

                        reader john dunn


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • podnoss
                        ... and ... As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin s policies are confused. As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the new
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 12, 2003
                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                          <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                          > > Why would Vladimir Putin care if there is a
                          > > > division in Church hierarchy?
                          >
                          > JRS: Because he is a person who has returned to his Orthodox roots,
                          and
                          > has become interested and concerned about "all this".
                          >

                          As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin's policies are confused.
                          As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the
                          new Russian nation-state needs to seek legitimacy from its imperial
                          and Soviet past, not from Christ's Church. This is clearly President
                          Vladimir Putin's preference, as seen in the continued use of the
                          Russian double-headed eagle and the music of the Soviet anthem.




                          > > > Just a few years ago MP Alexi II was interviewed he
                          considered
                          > > > ROCOR schismatic and uncannonical not really worth his effort!
                          >
                          > JRS: I believe that is a bit exaggerated. You do not specify which
                          > interview this was, and the Patriarch has been interviewed on the
                          > subject many times. He has always indicated a desire to see
                          > reconciliation, but about 10 years ago, under Metropolitan Vitaly,
                          this
                          > appeared virtually hopeless.
                          >
                          >
                        • podnoss
                          To the moderatorsat orthodox-synod: You re pretty much bound to censor this post as well. In the context of this entire thread your methods serve no
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 12, 2003
                            To the moderatorsat orthodox-synod: You're pretty much bound to
                            censor this post as well. In the context of this entire thread your
                            methods serve no explanatory role.


                            Between 1945 & 1967 collectively over 86 000 Nazi criminals were
                            convicted in West Germany. No comparable numbers exist in Post-Soviet
                            Russia.

                            Again, if you really knew what Stalin did to the Chechens, & if you
                            felt that it was a terrible crime against the Chechen people, it is
                            not only Mr. V. V. Putin who would be unable to do the same things
                            now, but you & yours also would be unable to sit back & write what
                            you write with equanimity.

                            At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                            >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                            >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                            >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                            >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                            >crimes.
                            With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the Caucescus,
                            Erich
                            Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my
                            knowledge,
                            communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-
                            pact
                            countries either.

                            That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                            articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would
                            actually
                            reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+
                            million
                            communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to
                            Mars?" What
                            do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed
                            on, a
                            portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have repackaged
                            themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall Soviet
                            times
                            as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a
                            portion of
                            these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not yet
                            full
                            CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right
                            there)
                            and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology for
                            the
                            CPSU, but just a simple reality check.

                            Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops lined
                            up.
                            What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die
                            during
                            WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.

                            The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                            everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows
                            those
                            who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
                            collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to Him
                            alone.

                            Hristofor





                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
                            wrote:
                            > At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                            > >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                            > >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                            > >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                            > >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                            > >crimes.
                            > With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the
                            Caucescus, Erich
                            > Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my
                            knowledge,
                            > communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-
                            pact
                            > countries either.
                            >
                            > That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                            > articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would
                            actually
                            > reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+
                            million
                            > communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to
                            Mars?" What
                            > do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed
                            on, a
                            > portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have
                            repackaged
                            > themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall
                            Soviet times
                            > as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a
                            portion of
                            > these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not
                            yet full
                            > CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right
                            there)
                            > and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology
                            for the
                            > CPSU, but just a simple reality check.
                            >
                            > Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops
                            lined up.
                            > What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die
                            during
                            > WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.
                            >
                            > The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                            > everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows
                            those
                            > who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after
                            the
                            > collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to
                            Him alone.
                            >
                            > Hristofor
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • V. Boitchenko
                            This is a rediculous statement. Russian Federation by its Constitution is a secular state and it has no secular past other than imperial and soviet. Render
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 13, 2003
                              This is a rediculous statement. Russian Federation by its Constitution is "a secular state" and it has no secular past other than imperial and soviet. Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's.

                              Viatcheslav

                              As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin's policies are confused.
                              As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the
                              new Russian nation-state needs to seek legitimacy from its imperial
                              and Soviet past, not from Christ's Church. This is clearly President
                              Vladimir Putin's preference, as seen in the continued use of the
                              Russian double-headed eagle and the music of the Soviet anthem.




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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