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A Path to least Resistance: Negotiations of Existence

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  • Reader Timothy Tadros
    A Path to least Resistance: Negotiations of Existence What is the goal of the proposed negotiations with the Moscow Patriarchate Why does ROCOR exist?
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 6, 2003
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      A Path to least Resistance: Negotiations of Existence

      "What is the goal of the proposed negotiations with the Moscow
      Patriarchate"
      Why does ROCOR exist? Continue to exist or should it continue to
      Exist?
      Why does the Church in Russia the Moscow Patriarchate care at all if
      rapprochement occurs? Why would Vladimir Putin care if there is a
      division in Church hierarchy?
      Just a few years ago MP Alexi II was interviewed he considered
      ROCOR schismatic and uncannonical not really worth his effort!
      What is Serginaism and does it continue in the present hierarchy of
      Moscow.
      "Archpriest Lev Lebedev of Kursk considers the moral decay among
      the MP's episcopate to have penetrated `too deeply'. They lack true
      sincerity."
      Has the "Psychology of Neo-Sergianism" by Archpriest Vladislav
      Sueshnikov as he calls it "an extreme distortion of the Church
      Consciousness" been reversed or repented?
      Will the New Martyrs and Confessor's blood be vindicated through
      public disclosure of the atrocities the Bolsheviks inflicted upon
      the innocent lives of the men and women of Russia. Will the cover-
      up accomplished by the god-less government and co-equal daughter of
      misinformation the Sergianist hierarchy of the Russian Church be
      condemned'?
      How has Ecumenism affected Church Life in Russia or does it?
      Will as Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote the "Triumph of Truth" will it
      become reality or reality check?
      Since ROCOR's inception we have proclaimed we are the "Free Voice"
      of the Russian Orthodox Church. What will happen when this voice
      will be silenced by capitulated negotiations for the "greater good"
      of the Church?
      I suggest everyone read "WHY NOW" by Archpriest Peter Perekrestov
      it was published in Orthodox Life, Vol.44, No. 6, Nov-Dec, 1994. I
      would be interested to see if Fr. Peter would write a follow up, but
      given the supposed gag order `on not to talk about' the `proposed
      negotiations.' I can wait, see and pray what our bishops will bring
      back from the bargaining table but what will be the 'fruits of
      their labor'!
      {quotes taken from text)
      Reader Timothy Tadros
    • Graham (Elias) Reeves
      Reader Timothy, Fr.Peter Perekrestov will be speaking at the Clergy conference in Nyack, perhaps he ll be able to elaborate on some of those questions. He
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 7, 2003
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        Reader Timothy,

        Fr.Peter Perekrestov will be speaking at the Clergy conference in
        Nyack, perhaps he'll be able to elaborate on some of those
        questions. He might also have something to say about whether his
        views have evolved due to the events of the last nine years since
        that article.

        His talk is entitled:
        "St. John (Maximovich) the Miracle-worker's View of the Russian
        Church in the 20th Century" This should be interesting.

        You're right, we should definitely be praying for our bishops right
        now.

        -Elias in Michigan
      • frvboldewskul@aol.com
        Dear in Christ Timothy, You have here numerous questions all strung together. I think it is impossible to answer them in order. As for why the Russian Orthodox
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 7, 2003
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          Dear in Christ Timothy,

          You have here numerous questions all strung together. I think it is
          impossible to answer them in order. As for why the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad
          exists, I believe that has been answered numerous times on this list. I know Fr.
          Alexander Lebedev has answered it, as has our Metropolitan. I would suggest that
          the question now is not "why do we exist," for that is akin to asking why
          does the Church exist! The question is what should our relationship be vis-a-vis
          the Moscow Patriarchate given all the changes that have occurred in Russia,
          and within the Russian Church as a whole --both home and abroad. This leads to
          your first question, and the purpose of the current dialogue is to clarify
          this question and, perhaps, to consider a new blueprint for our Church's role
          (ROCOR) in the life of the Russian Church both in Russia and Abroad.

          As for does Sergianism exist in the present hierarchy of the Moscow
          Patriarchate? No. See their statement from the 2000 Sobor.

          As for our free voice, that would continue, except it would be heard with
          renewed authority throughout the world, should reconciliation between the two
          parts of the Russian Church occur.

          As for why V. V. Putin would be interested in unity of the Church, Bishop
          Kyrill's recent interview answered that (among other questions you ask).

          Finally, I am not aware of any "gag order." However, discussion would
          naturally be limited since we are in a process of dialogue. The process is long, and
          we must be patient. Three of our bishops will be going to Russia this month,
          and the results of this trip (and the meeting between our First Hierarch and
          members of Synod with the President of the Russian Federation) will be
          presented at the all clergy conference to be held in December. A Sobor will follow.

          It should be noted that all this is taking place 9 years after the "Why Now"
          article was published in Orthodox Life.

          On a side note, yesterday while waiting in line to pay for my groceries, I
          flipped through a Newsweek journal. In it, it noted the Russian Church's
          opposition to Halloween. I read some articles on the Internet that celebrating
          Halloween in Moscow was banned because of the protests of the Russian Church (Moscow
          Patriarchate). The Evil One cannot be pleased with that.

          Yours in Christ,
          Priest Victor Boldewskul



          In a message dated 11/6/03 10:58:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
          pravoslavney@... writes:

          > A Path to least Resistance: Negotiations of Existence
          >
          > "What is the goal of the proposed negotiations with the Moscow
          > Patriarchate"
          > Why does ROCOR exist? Continue to exist or should it continue to
          > Exist?
          > Why does the Church in Russia the Moscow Patriarchate care at all if
          > rapprochement occurs? Why would Vladimir Putin care if there is a
          > division in Church hierarchy?
          > Just a few years ago MP Alexi II was interviewed he considered
          > ROCOR schismatic and uncannonical not really worth his effort!
          > What is Serginaism and does it continue in the present hierarchy of
          > Moscow.
          > "Archpriest Lev Lebedev of Kursk considers the moral decay among
          > the MP's episcopate to have penetrated `too deeply'. They lack true
          > sincerity."
          > Has the "Psychology of Neo-Sergianism" by Archpriest Vladislav
          > Sueshnikov as he calls it "an extreme distortion of the Church
          > Consciousness" been reversed or repented?
          > Will the New Martyrs and Confessor's blood be vindicated through
          > public disclosure of the atrocities the Bolsheviks inflicted upon
          > the innocent lives of the men and women of Russia. Will the cover-
          > up accomplished by the god-less government and co-equal daughter of
          > misinformation the Sergianist hierarchy of the Russian Church be
          > condemned'?
          > How has Ecumenism affected Church Life in Russia or does it?
          > Will as Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote the "Triumph of Truth" will it
          > become reality or reality check?
          > Since ROCOR's inception we have proclaimed we are the "Free Voice"
          > of the Russian Orthodox Church. What will happen when this voice
          > will be silenced by capitulated negotiations for the "greater good"
          > of the Church?
          > I suggest everyone read "WHY NOW" by Archpriest Peter Perekrestov
          > it was published in Orthodox Life, Vol.44, No. 6, Nov-Dec, 1994. I
          > would be interested to see if Fr. Peter would write a follow up, but
          > given the supposed gag order `on not to talk about' the `proposed
          > negotiations.' I can wait, see and pray what our bishops will bring
          > back from the bargaining table but what will be the 'fruits of
          > their labor'!
          > {quotes taken from text)
          > Reader Timothy Tadros
          >
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          In a message dated 11/6/03 10:58:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... JRS: ROCOR exists as a local part of the Russian Orthodox Church, because large numbers of
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 7, 2003
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            In a message dated 11/6/03 10:58:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
            pravoslavney@... writes:

            > > Why does ROCOR exist? Continue to exist or should it continue to
            > > Exist?

            JRS: ROCOR exists as a local part of the Russian Orthodox Church,
            because large numbers of Orthodox Christians from Russia found
            themselves abroad after the collapse of the White Army and the
            evacuation from the Crimea in 1920.

            ROCOR has been self-administered since that time, because of the decree
            of Patriarch St. Tikhon.

            This decree was *temporary* in nature.

            But ROCOR was not formed to *protest* against anything.

            ROCOR will also *not* cease to exist if relations with the central
            Church administration in Russia are finally normalized.

            > > Why does the Church in Russia the Moscow Patriarchate care at all
            if
            > > rapprochement occurs?

            JRS: Because the present division undermines the unity of the Orthodox
            Church among Russian-speaking people.

            ROCOR, unfortunately, has also spawned at least 3 uncanonical,
            schismatic groups: the Panteleimonites, the Suzdalites and the
            Mansonville schism. Besides those, various involvements with the Greek
            Old Calendarists have led to a proliferation of rival Greek
            hierarchies, some with extreme teachings bordering on heresy, and
            several of these are also now represented in Russia.

            > Why would Vladimir Putin care if there is a
            > > division in Church hierarchy?

            JRS: Because he is a person who has returned to his Orthodox roots, and
            has become interested and concerned about "all this".

            > > Just a few years ago MP Alexi II was interviewed he considered
            > > ROCOR schismatic and uncannonical not really worth his effort!

            JRS: I believe that is a bit exaggerated. You do not specify which
            interview this was, and the Patriarch has been interviewed on the
            subject many times. He has always indicated a desire to see
            reconciliation, but about 10 years ago, under Metropolitan Vitaly, this
            appeared virtually hopeless.

            > > What is Serginaism and does it continue in the present hierarchy of
            > > Moscow.

            JRS: 'Sergianism' is a name given to submission to the Soviet state.
            There is no longer an oficially atheistic, Soviet state; so at least
            technically, there is no more 'Sergianism'.

            But in the past, the Church has had a long history of submission to
            secular rulers, be they Orthodox, heretical, or non-Christian.

            > > "Archpriest Lev Lebedev of Kursk considers the moral decay among
            > > the MP's episcopate to have penetrated `too deeply'. They lack true
            > > sincerity."

            JRS: This is the opinion of one individual, who reposed several years
            ago and is unable to re-evaluate the situation today.

            However, there is nothing in the Canons about "true sincerity", nor
            could one measure what is hidden in the hearts of others.

            > > Has the "Psychology of Neo-Sergianism" by Archpriest Vladislav
            > > Sueshnikov as he calls it "an extreme distortion of the Church
            > > Consciousness" been reversed or repented?

            JRS: This "psychology" is also something entirely subjective, and it
            can hardly have existed in the entire Church membership.

            But, if it did, remember that there is now a major part of ROCOR's
            flock, and also clergy, that grew up under Soviet rule and had the
            same "psychological development".

            > > Will the New Martyrs and Confessor's blood be vindicated through
            > > public disclosure of the atrocities the Bolsheviks inflicted upon
            > > the innocent lives of the men and women of Russia. Will the cover-
            > > up accomplished by the god-less government and co-equal daughter of
            > > misinformation the Sergianist hierarchy of the Russian Church be
            > > condemned'?

            JRS: This sort of talk has no basis in the Canons. Neither the Canons
            nor later Church law can be cited about "vindication of Martyrs", which
            surely is for the Last Judgment.

            > > How has Ecumenism affected Church Life in Russia or does it?

            JRS: I suspect it does not.

            > > Since ROCOR's inception we have proclaimed we are the "Free Voice"
            > > of the Russian Orthodox Church. What will happen when this voice
            > > will be silenced by capitulated negotiations for the "greater good"
            > > of the Church?

            JRS: There is no reason to suppose that the voice of ROCOR would be
            silenced, or that any negotiations would be "capitulation".

            > > I suggest everyone read "WHY NOW" by Archpriest Peter Perekrestov
            > > it was published in Orthodox Life, Vol.44, No. 6, Nov-Dec, 1994. I
            > > would be interested to see if Fr. Peter would write a follow up,
            but
            > > given the supposed gag order `on not to talk about' the `proposed
            > > negotiations.'

            JRS: Where do you get this "gag order"? Nobody has said anything to me
            about it. In fact, my impression is that the hierarchy are quite
            interested in hearing what we have to say.

            > I can wait, see and pray what our bishops will bring
            > > back from the bargaining table but what will be the 'fruits of
            > > their labor'!
            > > {quotes taken from text)
            > > Reader Timothy Tadros

            JRS: Our bishops have not even had time to go to Russia yet, and there
            is still no "bargaining table"!

            There may never be a "bargain" at all: a bargain implies that one thing
            must be exchanged for another, and we have no indication that such
            would be the case.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • for4z@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/7/2003 6:41:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vrevjrs@execpc.com writes: ... If our ultimate, common goal is for the re-establishment of the
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 7, 2003
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              In a message dated 11/7/2003 6:41:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
              vrevjrs@... writes:

              Fr. John Shaw wrote:
              > ROCOR will also *not* cease to exist if relations with the central
              > Church administration in Russia are finally normalized.
              >

              If our ultimate, common goal is for the re-establishment of the historical
              Russian Autocephalous Church, based on the Council of 1917 model, then it seems
              undoubtedly that the "ROCOR" should in fact, disappear.

              Perhaps it would benefit some within our current church if ROCOR continues to
              exist despite resolution with Russia. It feels, however, that having two
              such parallel structures, for no apparent reason, would only serve personal and
              power-related goals of certain individuals.

              As many archpriests have written on this list, the nature of the ROCOR is
              temporary. Thus, it reasons, if the ROCOR and MP are united, there should be but
              one Russian Church, headed by one Patriarch. If at that time others desire
              their own "local" church, they will have the option of joining the OCA.

              -Nick Zaharov


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... ROCOR is ... should be but ... desire ... OCA. JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with one Russian Church , and one Patriarch,
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 9, 2003
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                Fr. John Shaw had written:

                > > ROCOR will also *not* cease to exist if relations with the central
                > > Church administration in Russia are finally normalized.

                Nick Zaharov wrote:

                > As many archpriests have written on this list, the nature of the
                ROCOR is
                > temporary. Thus, it reasons, if the ROCOR and MP are united, there
                should be but
                > one Russian Church, headed by one Patriarch. If at that time others
                desire
                > their own "local" church, they will have the option of joining the
                OCA.

                JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with "one
                Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
                autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
                administrative decisions.

                "Joining the OCA" would not be an option, as I see it, for the
                following reasons:

                1) The OCA claims to be a Local Church *for America*, whereas ROCOR has
                been an administration of the Russian Church throughout what used to be
                called the "Free World". Why should dioceses in Germany or
                Australia "join the OCA"?

                2) Most people who identify with ROCOR would not want to join the OCA
                in any case.

                3) The question of the 1970 "Autocephaly" remains open, since this
                autocephaly pronouncement was never accepted by the Greek Churches, or
                by ROCOR, and faces some opposition even within the MP.

                Historically, the OCA has "Russian Orthodox" roots, and one might hope
                eventually to see it return to being part of one Russian Church --
                under the Patriarch of Moscow, as another autonomous exarchate, albeit
                with its own American goals.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • for4z@aol.com
                In a message dated 11/9/2003 5:27:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... Would the Patriarch be commemorated? Do you envision something similar to the Church of
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 9, 2003
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                  In a message dated 11/9/2003 5:27:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                  vrevjrs@... writes:


                  > JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with "one
                  > Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
                  > autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
                  > administrative decisions.
                  >

                  Would the Patriarch be commemorated? Do you envision something similar to
                  the Church of Ukraine or Byelorus, or something similar to the OCA?

                  Thank you,
                  -Nick Zaharov


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                  ... with one ... similar to ... JRS: The Patriarch, logically, should be commemorated once relations had been normalized, since the phrase The Orthodox
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 9, 2003
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                    Fr. John R. Shaw had written:

                    > > JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship
                    with "one
                    > > Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
                    > > autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
                    > > administrative decisions.

                    Nick Zaharov wrote:

                    > Would the Patriarch be commemorated? Do you envision something
                    similar to
                    > the Church of Ukraine or Byelorus, or something similar to the OCA?

                    JRS: The Patriarch, logically, should be commemorated once relations
                    had been normalized, since the phrase "The Orthodox episcopate of the
                    Russian Church" originated as a substitute for the name of the
                    Patriarch, in a period when there was neither a Patriarch nor a "Locum
                    Tenens".

                    The OCA claims *autocephaly*, but ROCOR never has claimed to be
                    anything other than "the free part of the Russian Church".

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • Kenneth Doll
                    FWIW, I am in the same diocese as Fr. John, and my priest just, published a request, in our latest weekly bulletin, from the recent clergy conference that
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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                      FWIW, I am in the same diocese as Fr. John, and my priest just,
                      published a request, in our latest weekly bulletin, from the
                      recent clergy conference that specifically requested input from
                      laity regarding the upcoming January meeting between Patriarch
                      Alexi and Metropolitan Laurus.

                      This seems quite far from a "gag" order to me.

                      In Christ,
                      Kenneth Doll

                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:

                      > > > I suggest everyone read "WHY NOW" by Archpriest Peter
                      Perekrestov
                      > > > it was published in Orthodox Life, Vol.44, No. 6, Nov-Dec,
                      1994. I
                      > > > would be interested to see if Fr. Peter would write a follow
                      up,
                      > but
                      > > > given the supposed gag order `on not to talk about' the
                      `proposed
                      > > > negotiations.'
                      >
                      > JRS: Where do you get this "gag order"? Nobody has said anything to
                      me
                      > about it. In fact, my impression is that the hierarchy are quite
                      > interested in hearing what we have to say.
                      >
                      >
                      > In Christ
                      > Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • michael nikitin
                      Fr.John, Fr.Alexander and those with like mind in ROCOR, invoke the Ukaze #362 of Patr. Tikhon as the reason for union with MP. This means that ROCOR should
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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                        Fr.John, Fr.Alexander and those with like mind in
                        ROCOR, invoke the Ukaze #362 of Patr. Tikhon as the
                        reason for union with MP.

                        This means that ROCOR should cease to exist. If not,
                        then ROCOR is not following the Ukaze,but only taking
                        the part they want to follow.

                        Michael N.


                        "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:Fr. John Shaw had written:

                        > > ROCOR will also *not* cease to exist if relations with the central
                        > > Church administration in Russia are finally normalized.

                        Nick Zaharov wrote:

                        > As many archpriests have written on this list, the nature of the
                        ROCOR is
                        > temporary. Thus, it reasons, if the ROCOR and MP are united, there
                        should be but
                        > one Russian Church, headed by one Patriarch. If at that time others
                        desire
                        > their own "local" church, they will have the option of joining the
                        OCA.

                        JRS: WHat I think most of us now envision, is a relationship with "one
                        Russian Church", and one Patriarch, but with ROCOR as a fully
                        autonomous exarchate, retaining its own Synod and making its own
                        administrative decisions.

                        "Joining the OCA" would not be an option, as I see it, for the
                        following reasons:

                        1) The OCA claims to be a Local Church *for America*, whereas ROCOR has
                        been an administration of the Russian Church throughout what used to be
                        called the "Free World". Why should dioceses in Germany or
                        Australia "join the OCA"?

                        2) Most people who identify with ROCOR would not want to join the OCA
                        in any case.

                        3) The question of the 1970 "Autocephaly" remains open, since this
                        autocephaly pronouncement was never accepted by the Greek Churches, or
                        by ROCOR, and faces some opposition even within the MP.

                        Historically, the OCA has "Russian Orthodox" roots, and one might hope
                        eventually to see it return to being part of one Russian Church --
                        under the Patriarch of Moscow, as another autonomous exarchate, albeit
                        with its own American goals.

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw




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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Hristofor
                        I think Fr John said that ROCOR would evolve into an exarchate of Russian parishes in the Diaspora, hence it would no longer exist in said form. Before the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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                          I think Fr John said that ROCOR would evolve into an exarchate of Russian
                          parishes in the Diaspora, hence it would no longer exist in said form.


                          Before the revolution, the only Russian parishes outside of Russia were the
                          Holy Land, in the Americas (started by Russian immigrants) and the "spa"
                          parishes (founded by the Royal Family or the nobility) in Baden Baden, Sane
                          Remo, Nice, plus the others in Paris, Vienna, Berlin etc. After the
                          revolution, the number of parishes increased greatly. Since the Russian
                          Diaspora has not returned en masse to Russia and since there are still new
                          immigrants who need to be served spiritually, the need for dioceses outside
                          of Russia does exist and the existing ROCOR diocesean structure could be
                          used as a model.

                          It never ceases to amaze me the number of people that seemed to be locked
                          in a time capsule and are removed from the reality of the events and times
                          which have changed around them.

                          Hristofor

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • podnoss
                          ... groceries, I ... Church s ... celebrating ... Russian Church (Moscow ... Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical paradox. Thus,
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 10, 2003
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                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
                            >
                            > On a side note, yesterday while waiting in line to pay for my
                            groceries, I
                            > flipped through a Newsweek journal. In it, it noted the Russian
                            Church's
                            > opposition to Halloween. I read some articles on the Internet that
                            celebrating
                            > Halloween in Moscow was banned because of the protests of the
                            Russian Church (Moscow
                            > Patriarchate). The Evil One cannot be pleased with that.
                            >
                            > Yours in Christ,
                            > Priest Victor Boldewskul


                            Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                            paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                            monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                            former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                            crimes.
                          • Hristofor
                            ... With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev s son-in-law, the Caucescus, Erich Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my knowledge,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 11, 2003
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                              At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                              >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                              >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                              >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                              >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                              >crimes.
                              With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the Caucescus, Erich
                              Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my knowledge,
                              communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-pact
                              countries either.

                              That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                              articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would actually
                              reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+ million
                              communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to Mars?" What
                              do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed on, a
                              portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have repackaged
                              themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall Soviet times
                              as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a portion of
                              these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not yet full
                              CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right there)
                              and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology for the
                              CPSU, but just a simple reality check.

                              Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops lined up.
                              What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die during
                              WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.

                              The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                              everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows those
                              who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
                              collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to Him alone.

                              Hristofor

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • ourlittlecity@aol.com
                              In a message dated 11/11/2003 3:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yes, we live in evil times, our faith is low and few can believe that repentance on such a
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 11, 2003
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                                In a message dated 11/11/2003 3:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                hristofor@... writes:


                                > The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                                > everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows those
                                > who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
                                > collapse of the USSR, judgment and punishment should be left to Him alone.
                                >
                                > Hristofor
                                >

                                Yes, we live in evil times, our faith is low and few can believe that
                                repentance on such a large scale that the word pervasive and everywhere can ever be
                                descriptive of modern nations. The reality may be that everywhere we have lost
                                the ability to experience repentance in a pervasive manner?

                                reader john dunn


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • podnoss
                                ... and ... As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin s policies are confused. As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the new
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 12, 2003
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                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                                  <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                  > > Why would Vladimir Putin care if there is a
                                  > > > division in Church hierarchy?
                                  >
                                  > JRS: Because he is a person who has returned to his Orthodox roots,
                                  and
                                  > has become interested and concerned about "all this".
                                  >

                                  As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin's policies are confused.
                                  As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the
                                  new Russian nation-state needs to seek legitimacy from its imperial
                                  and Soviet past, not from Christ's Church. This is clearly President
                                  Vladimir Putin's preference, as seen in the continued use of the
                                  Russian double-headed eagle and the music of the Soviet anthem.




                                  > > > Just a few years ago MP Alexi II was interviewed he
                                  considered
                                  > > > ROCOR schismatic and uncannonical not really worth his effort!
                                  >
                                  > JRS: I believe that is a bit exaggerated. You do not specify which
                                  > interview this was, and the Patriarch has been interviewed on the
                                  > subject many times. He has always indicated a desire to see
                                  > reconciliation, but about 10 years ago, under Metropolitan Vitaly,
                                  this
                                  > appeared virtually hopeless.
                                  >
                                  >
                                • podnoss
                                  To the moderatorsat orthodox-synod: You re pretty much bound to censor this post as well. In the context of this entire thread your methods serve no
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 12, 2003
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                                    To the moderatorsat orthodox-synod: You're pretty much bound to
                                    censor this post as well. In the context of this entire thread your
                                    methods serve no explanatory role.


                                    Between 1945 & 1967 collectively over 86 000 Nazi criminals were
                                    convicted in West Germany. No comparable numbers exist in Post-Soviet
                                    Russia.

                                    Again, if you really knew what Stalin did to the Chechens, & if you
                                    felt that it was a terrible crime against the Chechen people, it is
                                    not only Mr. V. V. Putin who would be unable to do the same things
                                    now, but you & yours also would be unable to sit back & write what
                                    you write with equanimity.

                                    At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                                    >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                                    >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                                    >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                                    >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                                    >crimes.
                                    With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the Caucescus,
                                    Erich
                                    Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my
                                    knowledge,
                                    communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-
                                    pact
                                    countries either.

                                    That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                                    articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would
                                    actually
                                    reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+
                                    million
                                    communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to
                                    Mars?" What
                                    do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed
                                    on, a
                                    portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have repackaged
                                    themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall Soviet
                                    times
                                    as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a
                                    portion of
                                    these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not yet
                                    full
                                    CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right
                                    there)
                                    and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology for
                                    the
                                    CPSU, but just a simple reality check.

                                    Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops lined
                                    up.
                                    What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die
                                    during
                                    WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.

                                    The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                                    everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows
                                    those
                                    who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after the
                                    collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to Him
                                    alone.

                                    Hristofor





                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > At 07:28 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote:
                                    > >Indeed the Washington Post Group is describing a land of historical
                                    > >paradox. Thus, Lenin's embalmed corpse is still enshrined in a
                                    > >monumental sarcophagus on Moscow's Red Square, and not a single
                                    > >former Communist official has been brought to trial for Soviet-era
                                    > >crimes.
                                    > With a few notable exceptions (Brezhnev's son-in-law, the
                                    Caucescus, Erich
                                    > Honecker [sorry for the mangled spelling]), to the best of my
                                    knowledge,
                                    > communist officials have not been brought to trial in other Warsaw-
                                    pact
                                    > countries either.
                                    >
                                    > That does bring up an interesting point: in one of the recent Putin
                                    > articles, he made a statement about "coming from Mars." I would
                                    actually
                                    > reverse the question and ask "Does everyone expect the former 19+
                                    million
                                    > communists (1987 membership of the CPSU) to disappear and go to
                                    Mars?" What
                                    > do you expect should happen to them? A portion of them have passed
                                    on, a
                                    > portion of them have grabbed power and riches, others have
                                    repackaged
                                    > themselves, others have probably repented, still others recall
                                    Soviet times
                                    > as a receding nightmare. Does anyone realistically think even a
                                    portion of
                                    > these could have been tried? What about the others, who were not
                                    yet full
                                    > CPSU members: the All-Union Trade Union (100 million members right
                                    there)
                                    > and the komsomoltsy, to name a few? This is in now way an apology
                                    for the
                                    > CPSU, but just a simple reality check.
                                    >
                                    > Anyone watching an old Nazi rally would see thousands of troops
                                    lined up.
                                    > What happened to all of them and their sympathizers who did not die
                                    during
                                    > WWII? Surely they were all not executed at Nuremberg.
                                    >
                                    > The point of this is that the Soviet Party was so pervasive and was
                                    > everywhere, how can justice possibly be meted out? God alone knows
                                    those
                                    > who are guilty and have not repented and now almost 15 years after
                                    the
                                    > collapse of the USSR, judgement and punishment should be left to
                                    Him alone.
                                    >
                                    > Hristofor
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • V. Boitchenko
                                    This is a rediculous statement. Russian Federation by its Constitution is a secular state and it has no secular past other than imperial and soviet. Render
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Nov 13, 2003
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                                      This is a rediculous statement. Russian Federation by its Constitution is "a secular state" and it has no secular past other than imperial and soviet. Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's.

                                      Viatcheslav

                                      As with the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin's policies are confused.
                                      As a great power, however untrue it is in the non-nuclear sphere, the
                                      new Russian nation-state needs to seek legitimacy from its imperial
                                      and Soviet past, not from Christ's Church. This is clearly President
                                      Vladimir Putin's preference, as seen in the continued use of the
                                      Russian double-headed eagle and the music of the Soviet anthem.




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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