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chrismated priests?

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  • jechenaudrey
    Hello, can Orthodox Christians received by chrismation only be ordained as priests or must they be baptized by triple immersion before ordination? Nicholas
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 4, 2003
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      Hello, can Orthodox Christians received by chrismation only be
      ordained as priests or must they be baptized by triple immersion
      before ordination? Nicholas
    • frpeterjackson
      ... Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) of Platina was received by chrismation and later ordained to the priesthood. I have never heard anything about him having to be
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 5, 2003
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "jechenaudrey"
        <jechenaudrey@y...> wrote:
        > Hello, can Orthodox Christians received by chrismation only be
        > ordained as priests or must they be baptized by triple immersion
        > before ordination? Nicholas

        Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) of Platina was received by chrismation and
        later ordained to the priesthood. I have never heard anything about
        him having to be baptized *after* his chrismation so that he could be
        ordained. Was he not "Orthodox enough" to be ordained? Metropolitan
        Laurus has told me that if someone has been received by chrismation
        and has been receiving Holy Communion, it is not proper to go back
        and baptize them since they have already been living an Orthodox life.

        Priest Peter Jackson
      • StephenATL
        Bless, Father Peter; While I would agree with what you have just stated, I would quickly point out that Blessed Hieromonk Seraphim would most certainly now
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 5, 2003
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          Bless, Father Peter;

          While I would agree with what you have just stated, I would quickly
          point out that Blessed Hieromonk Seraphim would most certainly now say
          that he was received incorrectly and that he and Met. Laurus would both
          say that full Orthodox triple-immersion should be the norm. And for the
          peace of mind of the convert, would most likely allow the "completion"
          of their reception into the Holy Orthodox Church by baptism, if done in
          a discreet manner and that all understood that it was simply the
          completion of a Holy Mystery that was done improperly (because in
          Orthodoxy, baptism and chrismation should never be separated), and was
          now simply being completed.

          Stephanos


          frpeterjackson wrote:

          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "jechenaudrey"
          > <jechenaudrey@y...> wrote:
          > > Hello, can Orthodox Christians received by chrismation only be
          > > ordained as priests or must they be baptized by triple immersion
          > > before ordination? Nicholas
          >
          > Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) of Platina was received by chrismation and
          > later ordained to the priesthood. I have never heard anything about
          > him having to be baptized *after* his chrismation so that he could be
          > ordained. Was he not "Orthodox enough" to be ordained? Metropolitan
          > Laurus has told me that if someone has been received by chrismation
          > and has been receiving Holy Communion, it is not proper to go back
          > and baptize them since they have already been living an Orthodox life.
          >
          > Priest Peter Jackson
          >
          >
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        • Joachim Wertz
          Exactly correct. If we haven t had a proper Orthodox baptism but were received through Chrismation, we have to learn to take it on the chin and move on. I
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 5, 2003
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            Exactly correct. If we haven't had a proper Orthodox baptism but were
            received through Chrismation, we have to learn to "take it on the chin" and
            move on. I think if we don't we really don't trust the Church. What about
            instances where one was unable to fully prepare for Communion and the priest
            tells you to just read three specific prayers? What about instances where
            you are ready to confess every sin you can recall and the priest cuts you
            off? These things have happened with me. Does this mean that my Communion
            and Confession were invalid or graceless?

            In Christ,

            Joachim Wertz

            From: "frpeterjackson" <frpeterjackson@...>
            Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 14:01:22 -0000
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: chrismated priests?


            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "jechenaudrey"
            <jechenaudrey@y...> wrote:
            > Hello, can Orthodox Christians received by chrismation only be
            > ordained as priests or must they be baptized by triple immersion
            > before ordination? Nicholas

            Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) of Platina was received by chrismation and
            later ordained to the priesthood. I have never heard anything about
            him having to be baptized *after* his chrismation so that he could be
            ordained. Was he not "Orthodox enough" to be ordained? Metropolitan
            Laurus has told me that if someone has been received by chrismation
            and has been receiving Holy Communion, it is not proper to go back
            and baptize them since they have already been living an Orthodox life.

            Priest Peter Jackson


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          • sophia_proskoumen
            ... Metropolitan Laurus was never baptised in the Orthodox Church ... he was born a Uniate and baptised (by triple immersion) in a church that commerated the
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 15, 2003
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              > ordained. Was he not "Orthodox enough" to be ordained? Metropolitan
              > Laurus has told me that if someone has been received by chrismation
              > and has been receiving Holy Communion, it is not proper to go back
              > and baptize them since they have already been living an Orthodox life.

              Metropolitan Laurus was never baptised in the Orthodox Church ... he
              was born a Uniate and baptised (by triple immersion) in a church that
              commerated the pope of Rome and was received into the Orthodox Church
              without baptism.

              Many times in the Church's history this was common practise. In the
              RUssian Church before the revolution Latin and Anglican priests were
              received without not only being re-baptised, but without being
              re-ordained. The ritual was that they stood on the cliros until after
              the Grwat Enterance, when they were led through the royal doors and
              vested.

              The Church in her economy has had a great variety of practises. Those
              critisising what they don't like would do well to study Church history
              or seek a blessing from a spiritual father before taking it on
              themselves to interpret the Holy Canons or to judge the Church or her
              Hierarchs!
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... JRS: RC priests, along with Armenian and Nestorian clergy, were indeed received in sacerdotal rank; but Anglican clergy had to be reordained, at least in
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 16, 2003
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                Regarding:

                > Many times in the Church's history this was common practise. In the
                > RUssian Church before the revolution Latin and Anglican priests were
                > received without not only being re-baptised, but without being
                > re-ordained.

                JRS: RC priests, along with Armenian and Nestorian clergy, were indeed
                received in sacerdotal rank; but Anglican clergy had to be reordained,
                at least in the Russian Church. There was an opinion by some that they
                could be received "in statu quo", but if this was ever actually done,
                it was not the accepted or normal procedure.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • stefanvpavlenko
                Many relatives of Metropolitan Lavr were indeed Uniate, due to the historical conditions that dominated that part of the world. Metropolitan Lavr was baptized
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 16, 2003
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                  Many relatives of Metropolitan Lavr were indeed Uniate, due to the
                  historical conditions that dominated that part of the world.
                  Metropolitan Lavr was baptized by Archimandrite (later Archbishop)
                  Vitaly (Maximenko) a Russian Orthodox monk from the Holy Monastery of
                  Pochaev who founded the St. Iov (Job) of Pochaev Brotherhood in
                  Vladomirovo (Ladomirovo), in Carpathorussia. Metropolitan Lavr was
                  never a Uniate!
                  Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "sophia_proskoumen"
                  <sophia_proskoumen@e...> wrote:
                  > > ordained. Was he not "Orthodox enough" to be ordained? Metropolitan
                  > > Laurus has told me that if someone has been received by chrismation
                  > > and has been receiving Holy Communion, it is not proper to go back
                  > > and baptize them since they have already been living an Orthodox life.
                  >
                  > Metropolitan Laurus was never baptised in the Orthodox Church ... he
                  > was born a Uniate and baptised (by triple immersion) in a church that
                  > commerated the pope of Rome and was received into the Orthodox Church
                  > without baptism.
                  >
                  > Many times in the Church's history this was common practise. In the
                  > RUssian Church before the revolution Latin and Anglican priests were
                  > received without not only being re-baptised, but without being
                  > re-ordained. The ritual was that they stood on the cliros until after
                  > the Grwat Enterance, when they were led through the royal doors and
                  > vested.
                  >
                  > The Church in her economy has had a great variety of practises. Those
                  > critisising what they don't like would do well to study Church history
                  > or seek a blessing from a spiritual father before taking it on
                  > themselves to interpret the Holy Canons or to judge the Church or her
                  > Hierarchs!
                • Reader Timothy Tadros
                  ...What do we exactly receive in baptism? The Grace of redemption, the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5) Can this gift be received outside the Church?
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 16, 2003
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                    "...What do
                    we exactly receive in baptism? The Grace of
                    redemption, 'the washing of
                    regeneration' (Titus 3:5) Can this gift be received
                    outside the Church?
                    Answer is NO. We sing: "As many of you as have been
                    baptised into Christ have
                    put on Christ". Can this be achieved through a
                    heretical or schismatic so
                    called Christian group? Answer again No. Can the
                    water of any such group
                    become sanctified and become "the water of redemption,
                    the water of
                    sanctification, the purification of flesh and spirit,
                    the loosing of bonds,
                    the remission of sins, the illumination of the soul,
                    the laver of
                    regeneration, the renewal of the Spirit, the gift of
                    adoption to sonship"?
                    Can the water of an heretical or schismatic priest
                    transform the person being
                    baptized, "that he may put away from him the old man,
                    which is corrupt
                    through the lusts of the flesh, and that he may be
                    clothed upon with the new
                    man, and renewed after the image of Him Who created
                    him"? By receiving
                    baptism from such a group, will he, "being buried
                    after the pattern of Thy
                    death, in baptism, in like manner, be a partaker of
                    Thy Resurrecyion"?
                    It is only possible to speak of the validity of baptism
                    outside the Orthodox
                    Church in superficial terms; and only if one forgets
                    that a truly baptized
                    person is liberated from his sins and, by renouncing
                    the devil, is joined to
                    Christ as Head of the Church. He becomes a member of
                    the Body of Christ, that
                    is, of the divine-human organism. Here in lie the
                    purpose of baptism and its
                    fruit; and according to the 68th Apostolic Canon,
                    person being baptised or
                    ordained by heretics 'cannot be either faithful
                    Christians or clergymen"
                    (Strictness and Economy, Bishop Gregory (Grabbe)
                    History has shown that the
                    Church was most strict with regard to heretics and
                    schismatics when their
                    activities commenced, but practised economy when they
                    began to weaken. Having
                    in mind this circumstance and the growth today of the
                    heresy of ecumenism,
                    which attempts to eradicate completley the distinction
                    between Orthodoxy and
                    all other heresies; this is why ROCA, Mt. Athos and
                    more traditional minded
                    Churches have taken the stricter course in dealing
                    with converts. Ecumenism and apostasy, in most of the
                    so-called Christian churches still
                    profess one or more heresy or believe in absolutley
                    nothing that appears to
                    be Christian in nature.
                    On Economy...
                    Dr. Lewis Patsavos of Holy
                    Cross Seminary, who teaches canon law there said:
                    "The abolition of the
                    letter of the law by the spirit of the last has led to
                    the institution of
                    "economy" excercised in non-essential matters. Through
                    "economy" which is
                    always an exception to the general rule, the legal
                    consequences following the
                    violation are lifted. ...Economy is not something to
                    be applied at random or
                    arbitrarily. ...The right to excercise "economy" is
                    the sole perogative of
                    the legislator (council or holy synod of bishops).
                    This right can in turn be
                    delegated to individual bishops by the corporate
                    authority of the synod. This
                    delegation must, however, be within the limits
                    discribed by the canons and
                    according to the express authorization of one's
                    superior legislative
                    authority..."economy" is any deviation from the norm.
                    The exercise of
                    "economy" ceases if its cause no longer exists or if
                    the basis for its
                    application rested upon false or pretended grounds.
                    Once "economy" has been
                    applied, the normative practice is restored as before.
                    Furthuremore,
                    temporary departure from the normative practice
                    through "economy" does not
                    set precedent". (March 1992, Orthodox Observer, of the
                    Greek Orthodox
                    Archdiocese)
                    Bishop Nikodem (Milash) comments on the 46th Apostolic
                    Canon: "That the
                    canons strive not only to protect the Orthodox from
                    infection by an heretical
                    spirit, but also to guard them from indifference to
                    the faith and to the
                    Orthodox Church". On the 47th Canon "Baptism" he
                    writes, "is essential
                    condition for entry into the Church and for becoming a
                    true member thereof. It
                    must be celebrated ccording to the Orthodox Church
                    teachings, and only such
                    Baptism is called true according to this canon... From
                    true Baptism the canon
                    distingushes false baptism which is not been performed
                    by an Orthodox priest
                    according to the Church's teaching, and which not only
                    does not cleanse a man
                    from sin but, on the contrary, defiles him". (Canons
                    of the Orthodox Church
                    with Commentary, 1911)
                    "Baptism is not a magical act with an important
                    formula of incantation
                    which takes effect independently of the position of
                    the person pronouncing it
                    and of the faith of the person being baptized. Nowhere
                    in the Orthodox Church
                    can we find a faith of this sort in a paralel church,
                    in a salvific Christian
                    group which does not belong to her. On the contrary,
                    the Apostle writes: "One
                    Lord, One Faith, One Baptism." (Eph. 4:5)(Strictness
                    and Economy by Bishop
                    Gregory (Grabbe)'
                    In the Kormachaya Kniga (Slavonic Rudder) an
                    explanation by Timothy of
                    Alexandria of the question put forth: Question: "Why
                    do we baptise heretics
                    who have converted to the Catholic Church"? he
                    replies: "If this were not so
                    man would not readily turn away from heresy, being
                    ashamed of baptism".
                  • michael nikitin
                    If he was baptized by Archimandrite Vitaly(Maximenko),what Church did he belong to prior to being baptized? Michael N. stefanvpavlenko
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 18, 2003
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                      If he was baptized by Archimandrite Vitaly(Maximenko),what Church did he
                      belong to prior to being baptized?

                      Michael N.

                      stefanvpavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                      Many relatives of Metropolitan Lavr were indeed Uniate, due to the
                      historical conditions that dominated that part of the world.
                      Metropolitan Lavr was baptized by Archimandrite (later Archbishop)
                      Vitaly (Maximenko) a Russian Orthodox monk from the Holy Monastery of
                      Pochaev who founded the St. Iov (Job) of Pochaev Brotherhood in
                      Vladomirovo (Ladomirovo), in Carpathorussia. Metropolitan Lavr was
                      never a Uniate!
                      Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "sophia_proskoumen"
                      <sophia_proskoumen@e...> wrote:
                      > > ordained. Was he not "Orthodox enough" to be ordained? Metropolitan
                      > > Laurus has told me that if someone has been received by chrismation
                      > > and has been receiving Holy Communion, it is not proper to go back
                      > > and baptize them since they have already been living an Orthodox life.
                      >
                      > Metropolitan Laurus was never baptised in the Orthodox Church ... he
                      > was born a Uniate and baptised (by triple immersion) in a church that
                      > commerated the pope of Rome and was received into the Orthodox Church
                      > without baptism.
                      >
                      > Many times in the Church's history this was common practise. In the
                      > RUssian Church before the revolution Latin and Anglican priests were
                      > received without not only being re-baptised, but without being
                      > re-ordained. The ritual was that they stood on the cliros until after
                      > the Grwat Enterance, when they were led through the royal doors and
                      > vested.
                      >
                      > The Church in her economy has had a great variety of practises. Those
                      > critisising what they don't like would do well to study Church history
                      > or seek a blessing from a spiritual father before taking it on
                      > themselves to interpret the Holy Canons or to judge the Church or her
                      > Hierarchs!


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                    • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                      In a message dated 9/18/03 5:51:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Vladyka Metropolitan Laurus was born in the village of Vladomirova, the same village of the
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 18, 2003
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                        In a message dated 9/18/03 5:51:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                        nikitinmike@... writes:

                        > If he was baptized by Archimandrite Vitaly(Maximenko),what Church did he
                        > belong to prior to being baptized?
                        >
                        > Michael N.
                        >
                        >

                        Vladyka Metropolitan Laurus was born in the village of Vladomirova, the same
                        village of the Monastery. He was baptized right after his birth by
                        Archimandrite Vitaly.
                        Priest Victor Boldewskul


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