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[orthodox-synod] Re: Anathema/Ecumenism

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  • nona below
    Fr. Shaw, since you are touching upon historical dates, I can not help but muse -- George Orwell novel 1984 , shows how history was rewritten to the point
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 5 1:01 PM
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      Fr. Shaw, since you are touching upon historical dates, I can not help but
      muse -- George Orwell novel "1984", shows how history was rewritten to the
      point that that true historic events of the past became a falsehood in the
      present.

      If Anathema of 83 does not exist, what was Archbishop Vitaly reporting in
      "Pravoslavnaia Rus", #10, 84, "Orthodox Life" and Orthodox Observer, No.58,
      May 15/28, 1984?

      Archbishop Vitaly's article "The Council of Bishops of 1983" in Orthodox
      Life was translated from Orthodox Observer, No.58, April 1984. This is
      what is written:
      "The Council of Bishops of 1983 was a most special council, whose
      distinctiveness lay in its modesty and inconspicuousness�The fourteen
      hierarchs, who took part in the Council, travelled from all parts of the
      free world� Without doubt, the time for discussion and polemics has passed
      and the time has come to judge this movement and, however insignificant our
      Council of 1983 may seem, it has at last condemned ecumenism and
      anathematized it in the following words� By procaliming this anathema, we
      have protected our flock from this apocalyptic temptation and, at the same
      time, have reluctantly put before the conscience of all the local Churches a
      serious issue, which sooner or later they must resolve in one way or the
      other� The anathema we have proclaimed is de jure a manifestation of a
      purely local character OF the Russian Church Abroad, but de facto it has
      immense significance for the history of the universal Church, for ecumenism
      is a heresy on a universal scale. The place of the Russian Church Abroad is
      now plain in the conscience of all the Orthodox. The Lord has laid a great
      crosss upon us, but it is, however, no longer possible to remain silent, for
      coninued silence would be like a betrayal of the Truth, from which may the
      Lord deliver us all?" (Fr. Shaw, don't send me the web page where Fr.
      Lebedeff gives his interpretation of the Anathema.)

      The document of the Anathema of 1983 was signed by 14 bishops. You mean to
      tell us that this little Father George Grabbe, who was smaller in stature
      than my little grandmother, intimidated all 14 of them to sign this
      Anathema?

      If there is no "great and holy anathema of 1983" why would Metropolitan
      Vitaly write the Christamas Epistle of 1986 where the anathema of 1983 is
      the subject of the epistle?

      Why is Anathema to Ecumenism proclaimed annually on every Sunday of
      Orthodoxy in the Synod, and at the Holy Trinity Monastery if it does not
      exist? Our older, senior generation, with ITS CORRECT ECCLESIOLOGY
      understands it correctly, but the new generation of clergy, with the NEW
      ecclesiology, does not honor it. It seems they are set to execute their
      AGENDA even at the sacrifice of TRUTH.

      But, I suppose, this new ecclesiology is in the sprit of the times i.e., the
      need to be poitically correct!
      There is no one wrong. But if there is no one wrong, one may ask, why
      should anyone be right?



      >From: "Rev. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
      >Reply-To: orthodox-synod@...
      >To: orthodox-synod@...
      >Subject: Re: Anathema/Ecumenism
      >Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:47:30 -0500 (CDT)
      >
      >I have written the following before, and regret having to say it again,
      >but from these postings it appears that people are significantly
      >misinformed.
      > Was there a "great and holy anathema of 1983"?
      > No.
      > Why do I say there was no anathema?
      > Because the bishops had no intention of hurling any anathemas.
      > Why do I say this?
      > Because I had direct accounts of the proceedings from two bishops
      >who participated in the Sobor.
      > Then what did happen?
      > One of the bishops who gave a talk at the Sobor, said *in passing*
      >that the service for the Sunday of Orthodoxy should be modified to include
      >"ecumenists and modernists".
      > Did the bishops vote on this?
      > No.
      > Was there any discussion of this question?
      > No.
      > Then how did it get into the Acts of the Sobor?
      > Because Bishop Gregory (the former Fr. George Grabbe), as
      >secretary of the Synod, wrote it into the Acts on his own initiative.
      > How could he do this?
      > Because he was able to dominate Metropolitan Philaret, at least in
      >all official church matters, and the others seemed to feel that it was
      >impossible to resist Grabbe.
      > Was the "anathema" publicized in the Church Abroad in 1983?
      > No.
      > Then how was word of it spread?
      > Someone (probably Bishop Gregory) gave the information to Fr.
      >Neketas Palassis.
      > How did Palassis announce it?
      > He was not able to cite a Synod source, so he first "leaked" it to
      >the Greek-language "Orthodoxos Typos" in Athens, then published an English
      >translation form the Greek in his "Orthodox Christian Witness" from
      >Seattle.
      >
      >
      >On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 Rjmanz@... wrote:
      >
      > > In a message dated 99-05-31 15:38:52 EDT, you write:
      > >
      > > <<
      > > See the point? Anthemas don't deal with hypothetical situations. They
      > > deal with real problems which threaten peoples' salvation... and they
      > > address and judge those who promote and further those problems.
      > >
      > > Now, if Fr. Anthony and others wish to say that the Anathema of 1983
      > > applies only to our own Synod, pray tell - *who* in ROCOR in 1983 held
      > > such views, to be judged by such an Anathema? The Anathema is applied
      >to
      > > people - "to THOSE WHO..." it says.
      > >
      > > Who? >>
      > >
      > > Dear List Members,
      > >
      > > I believe Reader Constantine and Fr. Gregory Abu Asaly in a past
      >posting
      > > have made some good points regarding the Anathema. Others have made
      > > contrasting statements that the Anathema applies only to ROCOR. As Rd.
      > > Constantine points out, who then in ROCOR was engaging in ecumenical
      > > practices that this needed to be stated?
      > > Since this seems to be such a pivotal point of contention, could
      >anyone
      > > with connections to our bishops, ask them to clarify who the Anathema
      >really
      > > applies to and what is its relevance?
      > >
      > > Nectarios Manzanero
      > >
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    • Rev. John R. Shaw
      Dear Nona, I think that the description I gave of the events peading up to the anathema should speak for themselves. Note, however, that the dates you give
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 5 3:35 PM
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        Dear Nona,
        I think that the description I gave of the events peading up to
        the "anathema" should speak for themselves.
        Note, however, that the dates you give for these public statements
        on the subject are in one case a year, in the other three years after the
        date of the "anathema".
        If this had really been what people have subsequently tried to
        make it, we should have expected to hear of it at once, on the front page
        of Pravoslavnaya Rus' and other publications.
        A person's influence in the Church does not depend on how tall
        they are--although Fr. George/Bishop Gregory was taller in stature than
        you make him out to be! He had a very strong influence at the time, as
        anyone who was cognizant of what went on in the Church Abroad can easily
        tell you.
        His family also had great influence even in Russia before the
        revolution--including an uncle who is said to have pressured the Emperor
        to abdicate in 1917.
        Fr. George/Bishop Gregory had run the Synodal chancery for many
        decades. He was a brilliant man, an expert on the canons, and an able
        polemicist. It was he, for example, that really authored the "Mournful
        Epistles" that were signed by Metropolitan Philaret. He was, however,
        removed from his position and forced into retirement shortly after the
        accession of Metropolitan Vitaly. Born at the turn of the century, he was
        almost the only person of the whole White Emigration that had left Russia
        as an adult and was able to return to see the post-Soviet Russia, aged
        about 95, shortly before his repose. However, it was in his will that none
        of the bishops of the Church Abroad take part in his funeral.


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      • nona below
        Fr. Shaw, your writing cites no documents of support; therefore, it amounts to personal opinion, gossip, and hearsay. Which is bo-o-oring. Intellectuals talk
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 6 6:48 PM
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          Fr. Shaw, your writing cites no documents of support; therefore, it amounts
          to personal opinion, gossip, and hearsay. Which is bo-o-oring.

          Intellectuals talk of philosophies and ideas; ordinary but serious people
          talk about news events and politics; petty and mediocre people talks about
          'he said, she said�' or some such tripe. The choice is ours with whom we
          converse or correspond.


          >From: "Rev. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
          >To: nona below <nbelow@...>
          >CC: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
          >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Anathema/Ecumenism
          >Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 17:35:36 -0500 (CDT)
          >
          >Dear Nona,
          > I think that the description I gave of the events peading up to
          >the "anathema" should speak for themselves.
          > Note, however, that the dates you give for these public statements
          >on the subject are in one case a year, in the other three years after the
          >date of the "anathema".
          > If this had really been what people have subsequently tried to
          >make it, we should have expected to hear of it at once, on the front page
          >of Pravoslavnaya Rus' and other publications.
          > A person's influence in the Church does not depend on how tall
          >they are--although Fr. George/Bishop Gregory was taller in stature than
          >you make him out to be! He had a very strong influence at the time, as
          >anyone who was cognizant of what went on in the Church Abroad can easily
          >tell you.
          > His family also had great influence even in Russia before the
          >revolution--including an uncle who is said to have pressured the Emperor
          >to abdicate in 1917.
          > Fr. George/Bishop Gregory had run the Synodal chancery for many
          >decades. He was a brilliant man, an expert on the canons, and an able
          >polemicist. It was he, for example, that really authored the "Mournful
          >Epistles" that were signed by Metropolitan Philaret. He was, however,
          >removed from his position and forced into retirement shortly after the
          >accession of Metropolitan Vitaly. Born at the turn of the century, he was
          >almost the only person of the whole White Emigration that had left Russia
          >as an adult and was able to return to see the post-Soviet Russia, aged
          >about 95, shortly before his repose. However, it was in his will that none
          >of the bishops of the Church Abroad take part in his funeral.
          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >


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        • Rev. John R. Shaw
          I am afraid, dear Lady, that since I have been sharing my own memories, experiences, and conversations with hierarchs, it would be rather hard to fit them out
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 7 6:16 AM
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            I am afraid, dear Lady, that since I have been sharing my own memories,
            experiences, and conversations with hierarchs, it would be rather hard to
            fit them out with literary footnotes. I could of course do some research,
            but that would take up time needed for other matters, and I doubt it would
            make any difference to you even if I did.
            You are quite right that we ought not to engage in mere gossip;
            however, if someone were spreading misinformation (let alone
            *dis-*information) about you and your family, I doubt you would accuse
            those who tried to make the truth heard, of vain and empty talk.
            But as for the criteria you quote about "great and little minds",
            you might find it profitable to look back over your own postings of the
            previous months and compare them with this standard.

            On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, nona below wrote:

            >
            >
            > Fr. Shaw, your writing cites no documents of support; therefore, it amounts
            > to personal opinion, gossip, and hearsay. Which is bo-o-oring.
            >
            > Intellectuals talk of philosophies and ideas; ordinary but serious people
            > talk about news events and politics; petty and mediocre people talks about
            > 'he said, she said�' or some such tripe. The choice is ours with whom we
            > converse or correspond.
            >
            >
            > >From: "Rev. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
            > >To: nona below <nbelow@...>
            > >CC: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
            > >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Anathema/Ecumenism
            > >Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 17:35:36 -0500 (CDT)
            > >
            > >Dear Nona,
            > > I think that the description I gave of the events peading up to
            > >the "anathema" should speak for themselves.
            > > Note, however, that the dates you give for these public statements
            > >on the subject are in one case a year, in the other three years after the
            > >date of the "anathema".
            > > If this had really been what people have subsequently tried to
            > >make it, we should have expected to hear of it at once, on the front page
            > >of Pravoslavnaya Rus' and other publications.
            > > A person's influence in the Church does not depend on how tall
            > >they are--although Fr. George/Bishop Gregory was taller in stature than
            > >you make him out to be! He had a very strong influence at the time, as
            > >anyone who was cognizant of what went on in the Church Abroad can easily
            > >tell you.
            > > His family also had great influence even in Russia before the
            > >revolution--including an uncle who is said to have pressured the Emperor
            > >to abdicate in 1917.
            > > Fr. George/Bishop Gregory had run the Synodal chancery for many
            > >decades. He was a brilliant man, an expert on the canons, and an able
            > >polemicist. It was he, for example, that really authored the "Mournful
            > >Epistles" that were signed by Metropolitan Philaret. He was, however,
            > >removed from his position and forced into retirement shortly after the
            > >accession of Metropolitan Vitaly. Born at the turn of the century, he was
            > >almost the only person of the whole White Emigration that had left Russia
            > >as an adult and was able to return to see the post-Soviet Russia, aged
            > >about 95, shortly before his repose. However, it was in his will that none
            > >of the bishops of the Church Abroad take part in his funeral.
            > >
            > >
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            > >
            > >
            >
            >
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