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Re: Defrocked but First Hierarch Commemorated

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear Lawrence, The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to pray. « Watch
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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      Dear Lawrence,

      The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become
      tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to pray.

      « Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
      spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Mark 14:37-39)

      You are perfectly right in saying that we should pray for the
      sinners.

      I think however you are mistaken when you say that we should pray
      *instead* of denouncing the sin. Denouncing the sin and praying for
      the sinner are both inseparable obligations for the Christian. The
      horror of their sin is the reason why we must pray for them and why
      we cannot endorse their sin by associating with them before they
      renounced it.

      « It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
      punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
      heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion ». (St. Cyril of
      Alexandria).

      It is an error to believe that we should chose between faith and
      love. None can suffer from the other. Both are inseparable. This was
      discussed many times on this site.

      "Frequently, on this forum and in many other circumstances, the
      relationship of our Church with the heretical MP is presented in a
      wrong way, in my opinion. That is why many around us believe that we
      must soften somewhat the rigor of the dogma in order to accommodate
      the necessity to love the victims of heresy and apostasy". (message
      6598).

      Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext of
      brotherly love.

      « Do not, even for the sake of defending the faith, converse with
      heretics, for fear less their words instill their venom into thy
      mind. If thou meet with a book said to be by one of the heretics,
      read it not, lest it fill thy heart with deadly poison; but so
      continue in that doctrine which thou hast learnt in holy church, as
      neither to add or to take from it. « Isaias, Abbot [4th Cent.]


      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
      <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
      > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
      > Dear Vladimir,
      > Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time
      PRAYING for the MP. I know that there are probably KGB agents etc. in
      the MP, but I would rather have what we have today than what we had
      in the 60's 70's and 80's. At least the Church has a chance to grow
      and eventually be pure. Besides, who am I to make a harsh judgement
      on others. I'm sorry if I offended you guys,but I would rather spend
      my time praying for the MP, not hating it.
      > Love in Christ,
      > Sub-deacon Lawrence
      >
      > vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence,
      >
      > You write: "I don't have any special interest with them…I have yet
      to
      > figure out why you hate them so much".
      >
      > "I hated injustice and I loved your law. " (Ps 119, 163), (Rom. 12,
      > 19). "Christians must hate to lie and every way of injustice." (Ps
      > 119, 163). "I hate the double-minded but I love your Law (Ps
      119:13).
      >
      > "A common misconception is that hatred is never an option and
      should
      > not exist in the vocabulary of the pious God-loving, peace-loving
      and
      > mature Christian. But the Holy Romanian Father Cleopa states that
      > there is a form of hatred that is not only allowed, but commendable
      > in the life of the devout Christian. The type of hatred that our
      Lord
      > Jesus Christ refers to in the second chapter of the book of the
      > Revelation: "You hate the works of the Nicolaitans which I also
      > hate." (Rev. 2:6)".
      >
      > http://holyorthodoxy.tripod.com/romanianfathers.html
      >
      > If you are a member of the ROCOR, you know that the only reason
      that
      > ROCOR is stil in existence is that the MP is still in existence.
      >
      > The ROCOR must reunite with the rest of the Russian Church (and
      thus
      > disappear as such) as soon as freedom to reunite has returned. The
      > discussion that we have is about the fact that, if freedom has
      > returned in Russia, we should unite with the MP, but only if it is
      a
      > part of the real Church.
      >
      > So thus, the question of the MP's nature is capital for any member
      of
      > the ROCOR. The schism that we experience stems from the
      disagreement
      > as to whether or not the MP is the real Church.
      >
      > In message 8522, I have mentioned Father Alexander Lebedeff's 1994
      > opinion, following which a merge with the MP would mean ROCOR
      failing
      > in her mission. Father John has explained to us that Father
      Alexander
      > in the meantime had changed his mind.
      >
      > Below however is recent information supporting the notion that the
      MP
      > is still strongly in KGB's hands and yet for some quite some time
      to
      > come.
      >
      > In God,
      >
      > Vladimir Kozyreff
      >
      > "The Moscow Helsinki group has distributed the text of a letter
      from
      > one of its members, priest George Edelstein to the president of
      > Russia Vladimir Putin. The occasion for the letter is the recent
      > award in the Kremlin of the order of Friendship to metropolitan of
      > Voronezh and Lipetsk, Mefodii.
      >
      > The author of the letter remarks that this bishop of the MP, along
      > with the metropolitan of Smolensk and Kaliningrad Cyril, in
      > connection with the recent worsening of patriarch Aleksii's health,
      > is considered as a probable candidate to the patriarchal throne.
      >
      > George Edelstein provides evidence indicating that metropolitan
      > Mefodii in the past was an officer of the KGB and besides had in
      the
      > Church the reputation of being an atheist and of living in vice.
      >
      > As to metropolitan Cyril, according to Father George, he has long
      > been heading the Department of External Church Relations ("RPTS"),
      > formerly " the secret KGB centre of the agency among believers ".
      > According to the press, his name has also been associated with well-
      > known scandalous financial frauds in the recent past.
      >
      > In George Edelstein's opinion the "deep infiltration by agencies of
      > the special services in religious associations... represents a
      > serious danger to society and the State... the president should be
      > concerned about this".
      >
      > http://www.compromat.ru/main/rpc/mefodij.htm
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
      > <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
      > > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
      > > Dear Vladimir Moss,
      > > Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to
      > figure out why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so
      > much against them. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of
      the
      > Moscow Patriarchate so I don't have any special interest with them.
      I
      > feel bad that you would spend so much time bashing another Orthodox
      > Jurisdiction.
      > > Love in Christ,
      > > Sub-deacon Lawrence
      > >
      > > VladMoss@a... wrote:
      > > In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time,
      > vrevjrs@e...
      > > writes:
      > >
      > >
      > > > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
      > > > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present
      Patriarch,
      > after
      > > > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
      > > >
      > > > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we
      could
      > never
      > > > have been mistaken in the past.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible.
      > But what's
      > > worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were
      > in the past,
      > > that you were right in the past and are wrong now.
      > >
      > > There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to
      > change its
      > > spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their
      > spots.
      > >
      > > Vladimir Moss
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • VladMoss@aol.com
      In a message dated 03/06/03 04:18:39 GMT Daylight Time, ... Pray for them by all means - and for the other Russian jurisdictions, such as Suzdal, ROCOR (V),
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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        In a message dated 03/06/03 04:18:39 GMT Daylight Time,
        larrymost2002@... writes:


        > Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time PRAYING for
        > the MP. I know that there are probably KGB agents etc. in the MP, but I
        > would rather have what we have today than what we had in the 60's 70's and 80's.
        > At least the Church has a chance to grow and eventually be pure. Besides, who
        > am I to make a harsh judgement on others. I'm sorry if I offended you
        > guys,but I would rather spend my time praying for the MP, not hating it.
        >

        Pray for them by all means - and for the other Russian jurisdictions, such as
        Suzdal, ROCOR (V), the Seraphimo-Gennadiites, who are all more Orthodox than
        the MP.

        But don't think that you can remain truly Orthodox if you do not hate the
        enemies of Orthodoxy with the kind of "perfect hatred" that the Prophet David
        speaks about. In other words, a hatred that has no personal element in it, no
        fallen passion it it, but only unalloyed zeal for the truth.

        This is not an option, this is a duty. We are reminded of it every Sunday of
        Orthodoxy when, with a pure zeal for the truth, we anathematize all the
        enemies of Orthodoxy.

        Vladimir Moss


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • V. Boitchenko
        Dear Mr. Kozyrev, May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused. Are you sure you are in the
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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          Dear Mr. Kozyrev,

          May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused. Are you sure you are in the right church? Do you have any authority to accuse anyone of heresy or should it be the Council to have such authority? I also wonder if you (or anyone else) individually have any authority to apply anathemas as they feel fit in order to suit their political convictions. I do not know that the Synod has ever stated officially that all the anathemas against ecumenism or any other false doctrine specifically apply to the Moscow Patriarchate, and therefore MP is "heretical." If it is only your personal opinion please say so.

          v.


          Dear Lawrence,

          The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become
          tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to pray.

          « Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
          spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Mark 14:37-39)

          You are perfectly right in saying that we should pray for the
          sinners.

          I think however you are mistaken when you say that we should pray
          *instead* of denouncing the sin. Denouncing the sin and praying for
          the sinner are both inseparable obligations for the Christian. The
          horror of their sin is the reason why we must pray for them and why
          we cannot endorse their sin by associating with them before they
          renounced it.

          « It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
          punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
          heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion ». (St. Cyril of
          Alexandria).

          It is an error to believe that we should chose between faith and
          love. None can suffer from the other. Both are inseparable. This was
          discussed many times on this site.

          "Frequently, on this forum and in many other circumstances, the
          relationship of our Church with the heretical MP is presented in a
          wrong way, in my opinion. That is why many around us believe that we
          must soften somewhat the rigor of the dogma in order to accommodate
          the necessity to love the victims of heresy and apostasy". (message
          6598).

          Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext of
          brotherly love.

          « Do not, even for the sake of defending the faith, converse with
          heretics, for fear less their words instill their venom into thy
          mind. If thou meet with a book said to be by one of the heretics,
          read it not, lest it fill thy heart with deadly poison; but so
          continue in that doctrine which thou hast learnt in holy church, as
          neither to add or to take from it. « Isaias, Abbot [4th Cent.]


          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • frpeterjackson
          I also think it is time to abolish the EP in Istanbul and promote the MP to First among Equals . ... Of course, even if the EP were to fall away from the
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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            I also think it is time to abolish the EP in Istanbul and promote the
            MP to 'First among Equals'.
            >
            > Alban

            Of course, even if the EP were to fall away from the Church, as Rome
            did a millenium ago, the highest ranking patriarchate would then be
            Alexandria.

            Priest Peter Jackson
          • sergerust2002
            ... Dear Mr Boytchenko, Do you mean that ROCOR *has not* been watchful for 80 years ? Where do you think Mr Kozyreff is at odds with ROCOR teaching ? Your
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 4, 2003
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              Mr Kozyreff wrote:
              > The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years,
              > and we have become tired of defending the faith.

              Mr Boytchenko answered:
              > May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak
              > in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused.
              > Are you sure you are in the right church?


              Dear Mr Boytchenko,

              Do you mean that ROCOR *has not* been watchful for 80 years ?

              Where do you think Mr Kozyreff is at odds with ROCOR teaching ?

              Your rhetorical question "Are you sure you are in the right
              church ?" does not bring any evidence to the subject. It is simply an
              ad hominem consideration. The debated question is not whether Mr
              Kozyreff is sure or not sure of his opinions.

              The debated question is much more important. Its importance is
              recognized by the Sobor, since it is has appointed a Commission for
              the "Unity of the Russian Church" (while Metropolitan Vitaly
              claims that such commission has no object).

              Maybe it would be more clear to put it this way : How come you do not
              ask to Fr John Show "Are you sure you are in the right church ?",
              when he claims that the anathema against ecumenism was "a damage" ?

              In Christ,

              Serge Rust
            • vkozyreff
              Dear Mr Boitchenko, Thank you for your message. Your question: May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 4, 2003
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                Dear Mr Boitchenko,

                Thank you for your message.

                Your question: May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any
                authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused.

                I do not speak in the name of ROCOR, I just express what she has
                always taught me (and you, if you are orthodox). If I say "the ROCOR
                has been faithful for eighty years", I make a statement, which I
                claim to be correct, and which, I claim, will be supported by most
                believers.

                Your question: Are you sure you are in the right church?

                Yes, I am in the orthodox Church.

                Your question: Do you have any authority to accuse anyone of heresy
                or should it be the Council to have such authority?

                Stating that the MP is heretical is not exerting any authority or
                accusing it any longer in our days. It is just mentioning a well know
                established fact. Since ecumenism and sergianism are heresies, and
                have been anathematised, professing them is being heretical. In the
                same way, calling the Latino-catholic heretical is not accusing them
                any more. It is mentioning an established fact.

                Your question: I also wonder if you (or anyone else) individually
                have any authority to apply anathemas as they feel fit in order to
                suit their political convictions.

                I did not apply any anathema. An anathema is not "applied". An
                anathema has been proclaimed or has not. It is as simple as that. If
                you knowingly profess an opinion that has been anathematised, you are
                anathema without any further administrative measure.

                Since sergianism and ecumenism were anathematised, those who profess
                them are anathema. "Ya zdyes ni pri chom". To hate sergianism and
                ecumenism is not political, it is being faithful to orthodoxy.

                Your question: I do not know that the Synod has ever stated
                officially that all the anathemas against ecumenism or any other
                false doctrine specifically apply to the Moscow Patriarchate, and
                therefore MP is "heretical." If it is only your personal opinion
                please say so.

                God does not know "official statements" and does not need them. An
                anathema applies to all those who profess the positions that have
                been anathematised, whether officially confirmed or not. The anathema
                is God's judgement and the Church only explicitly expresses it. As
                explained by Vladimir Moss, (Message 8513), all heresies and heretics
                are anathematised 'from all eternity' by the eternal Lord, for just
                as every truth is approved by the Truth Himself from all eternity, so
                is every lie and condemned by Him from all eternity, being condemned
                with 'the father of lies' to the gehenna of fire (Revelation 22.15).

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyrrev

                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "V. Boitchenko"
                <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                > Dear Mr. Kozyrev,
                >
                > May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak
                in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused. Are you sure you are
                in the right church? Do you have any authority to accuse anyone of
                heresy or should it be the Council to have such authority? I also
                wonder if you (or anyone else) individually have any authority to
                apply anathemas as they feel fit in order to suit their political
                convictions. I do not know that the Synod has ever stated officially
                that all the anathemas against ecumenism or any other false doctrine
                specifically apply to the Moscow Patriarchate, and therefore MP
                is "heretical." If it is only your personal opinion please say so.
                >
                > v.
                >
                >
                > Dear Lawrence,
                >
                > The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become
                > tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to
                pray.
                >
                > « Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
                > spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Mark 14:37-39)
                >
                > You are perfectly right in saying that we should pray for the
                > sinners.
                >
                > I think however you are mistaken when you say that we should pray
                > *instead* of denouncing the sin. Denouncing the sin and praying
                for
                > the sinner are both inseparable obligations for the Christian.
                The
                > horror of their sin is the reason why we must pray for them and
                why
                > we cannot endorse their sin by associating with them before they
                > renounced it.
                >
                > « It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
                > punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
                > heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion ». (St. Cyril
                of
                > Alexandria).
                >
                > It is an error to believe that we should chose between faith and
                > love. None can suffer from the other. Both are inseparable. This
                was
                > discussed many times on this site.
                >
                > "Frequently, on this forum and in many other circumstances, the
                > relationship of our Church with the heretical MP is presented in
                a
                > wrong way, in my opinion. That is why many around us believe that
                we
                > must soften somewhat the rigor of the dogma in order to
                accommodate
                > the necessity to love the victims of heresy and apostasy".
                (message
                > 6598).
                >
                > Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext
                of
                > brotherly love.
                >
                > « Do not, even for the sake of defending the faith, converse with
                > heretics, for fear less their words instill their venom into thy
                > mind. If thou meet with a book said to be by one of the heretics,
                > read it not, lest it fill thy heart with deadly poison; but so
                > continue in that doctrine which thou hast learnt in holy church,
                as
                > neither to add or to take from it. « Isaias, Abbot [4th Cent.]
                >
                >
                > In God,
                >
                > Vladimir Kozyreff
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • V. Boitchenko
                Dear Mr. Rust, ... No, I did not mean that. However, can you tell me what is meant by that statement exactly? As Orthodox, I believe that my Church has been
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 4, 2003
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                  Dear Mr. Rust,

                  >>Do you mean that ROCOR *has not* been watchful for 80 years ?

                  No, I did not mean that. However, can you tell me what is meant by that statement exactly? As Orthodox, I believe that my Church has been watchful for 2000 years and not some 80.

                  >>Where do you think Mr. Kozyreff is at odds with ROCOR teaching ?

                  In my opinion Mr. Kozyreff made statements that go beyond what the Church Abroad has taught. Here are some examples:

                  >>VK:...the relationship of our Church with the heretical MP...

                  Our Church has never taught or proclaimed MP to be "heretical." Mr. Kozyreff took the liberty to speak on behalf of the Church and make such claim.

                  >>VK:...Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext of brotherly love...

                  I agree. Let us not. Who is the seducer?

                  >>VK:...and we have become tired of defending the faith...

                  Who is we? Did the Church Abroad or any of its officials ever declare that "they are tired of defending the faith?" Do you believe that is what we teach? If Mr. Kozyreff is "tired after defending the faith for 80 years", my question is not as rhetorical as it seems to you. Anyone who is tired of defending the faith must be in the wrong church.


                  >Your rhetorical question "Are you sure you are in the right
                  >church ?" does not bring any evidence to the subject. It is simply an
                  >ad hominem consideration. The debated question is not whether Mr
                  >Kozyreff is sure or not sure of his opinions.

                  I hope this clarifies what I meant and answers your questions.

                  In XC,

                  v


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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