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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Defrocked but First Hierarch Commemorated

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  • larry most
    CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN Dear Vladimir Moss, Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to figure out why you hate them so much
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
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      CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
      Dear Vladimir Moss,
      Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to figure out why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so much against them. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Moscow Patriarchate so I don't have any special interest with them. I feel bad that you would spend so much time bashing another Orthodox Jurisdiction.
      Love in Christ,
      Sub-deacon Lawrence

      VladMoss@... wrote:
      In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time, vrevjrs@...
      writes:


      > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
      > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present Patriarch, after
      > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
      >
      > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we could never
      > have been mistaken in the past.



      Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible. But what's
      worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were in the past,
      that you were right in the past and are wrong now.

      There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to change its
      spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their spots.

      Vladimir Moss


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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    • vkozyreff
      Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence, You write: I don t have any special interest with them…I have yet to figure out why you hate them so much . I hated injustice and
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
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        Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence,

        You write: "I don't have any special interest with them…I have yet to
        figure out why you hate them so much".

        "I hated injustice and I loved your law. " (Ps 119, 163), (Rom. 12,
        19). "Christians must hate to lie and every way of injustice." (Ps
        119, 163). "I hate the double-minded but I love your Law (Ps 119:13).

        "A common misconception is that hatred is never an option and should
        not exist in the vocabulary of the pious God-loving, peace-loving and
        mature Christian. But the Holy Romanian Father Cleopa states that
        there is a form of hatred that is not only allowed, but commendable
        in the life of the devout Christian. The type of hatred that our Lord
        Jesus Christ refers to in the second chapter of the book of the
        Revelation: "You hate the works of the Nicolaitans which I also
        hate." (Rev. 2:6)".

        http://holyorthodoxy.tripod.com/romanianfathers.html

        If you are a member of the ROCOR, you know that the only reason that
        ROCOR is stil in existence is that the MP is still in existence.

        The ROCOR must reunite with the rest of the Russian Church (and thus
        disappear as such) as soon as freedom to reunite has returned. The
        discussion that we have is about the fact that, if freedom has
        returned in Russia, we should unite with the MP, but only if it is a
        part of the real Church.

        So thus, the question of the MP's nature is capital for any member of
        the ROCOR. The schism that we experience stems from the disagreement
        as to whether or not the MP is the real Church.

        In message 8522, I have mentioned Father Alexander Lebedeff's 1994
        opinion, following which a merge with the MP would mean ROCOR failing
        in her mission. Father John has explained to us that Father Alexander
        in the meantime had changed his mind.

        Below however is recent information supporting the notion that the MP
        is still strongly in KGB's hands and yet for some quite some time to
        come.

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff

        "The Moscow Helsinki group has distributed the text of a letter from
        one of its members, priest George Edelstein to the president of
        Russia Vladimir Putin. The occasion for the letter is the recent
        award in the Kremlin of the order of Friendship to metropolitan of
        Voronezh and Lipetsk, Mefodii.

        The author of the letter remarks that this bishop of the MP, along
        with the metropolitan of Smolensk and Kaliningrad Cyril, in
        connection with the recent worsening of patriarch Aleksii's health,
        is considered as a probable candidate to the patriarchal throne.

        George Edelstein provides evidence indicating that metropolitan
        Mefodii in the past was an officer of the KGB and besides had in the
        Church the reputation of being an atheist and of living in vice.

        As to metropolitan Cyril, according to Father George, he has long
        been heading the Department of External Church Relations ("RPTS"),
        formerly " the secret KGB centre of the agency among believers ".
        According to the press, his name has also been associated with well-
        known scandalous financial frauds in the recent past.

        In George Edelstein's opinion the "deep infiltration by agencies of
        the special services in religious associations... represents a
        serious danger to society and the State... the president should be
        concerned about this".

        http://www.compromat.ru/main/rpc/mefodij.htm




        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
        <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
        > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
        > Dear Vladimir Moss,
        > Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to
        figure out why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so
        much against them. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the
        Moscow Patriarchate so I don't have any special interest with them. I
        feel bad that you would spend so much time bashing another Orthodox
        Jurisdiction.
        > Love in Christ,
        > Sub-deacon Lawrence
        >
        > VladMoss@a... wrote:
        > In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time,
        vrevjrs@e...
        > writes:
        >
        >
        > > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
        > > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present Patriarch,
        after
        > > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
        > >
        > > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we could
        never
        > > have been mistaken in the past.
        >
        >
        >
        > Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible.
        But what's
        > worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were
        in the past,
        > that you were right in the past and are wrong now.
        >
        > There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to
        change its
        > spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their
        spots.
        >
        > Vladimir Moss
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
        >
        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • VladMoss@aol.com
        In a message dated 02/06/03 14:08:20 GMT Daylight Time, ... You re quite right, Lawrence, I hate the MP. Not the people in it, the vast majority of whom, of
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
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          In a message dated 02/06/03 14:08:20 GMT Daylight Time,
          larrymost2002@... writes:


          > Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to figure out
          > why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so much against them. I
          > am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Moscow Patriarchate so I
          > don't have any special interest with them. I feel bad that you would spend so
          > much time bashing another Orthodox Jurisdiction.

          You're quite right, Lawrence, I hate the MP. Not the people in it, the vast
          majority of whom, of course, I do not know, but the institution founded by the
          devil and Stalin that is leading so many people to perdition.

          For one who loves the truth, who loves Holy Russia, hatred of the MP is
          natural, right and inevitable. You remember the words of St. Philaret of Moscow
          about the duty of hating the enemies of the faith? The MP is a most dangerous
          enemy of God and of the Orthodox faith. As Archimandrite Constantine Zaitsev used
          to say (as repeated by St. Philaret of New York), the creation of the MP was
          the Bolsheviks' most diabolical deed, far worse than all the physical
          destruction and killings, because it SPIRITUALLY destroys the Russian people and
          deceives other people throughout the world.

          "As for them that hate Thee, O Lord, have I not hated them? And because of
          Thine enemies have I not pined away?

          "With perfect hatred have I hated them; they are reckoned enemies with me"
          (Psalm 138.20-12).

          Vladimir Moss


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • larry most
          CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN Dear Vladimir, Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time PRAYING for the MP. I know that there are
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
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            CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
            Dear Vladimir,
            Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time PRAYING for the MP. I know that there are probably KGB agents etc. in the MP, but I would rather have what we have today than what we had in the 60's 70's and 80's. At least the Church has a chance to grow and eventually be pure. Besides, who am I to make a harsh judgement on others. I'm sorry if I offended you guys,but I would rather spend my time praying for the MP, not hating it.
            Love in Christ,
            Sub-deacon Lawrence

            vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
            Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence,

            You write: "I don't have any special interest with them�I have yet to
            figure out why you hate them so much".

            "I hated injustice and I loved your law. " (Ps 119, 163), (Rom. 12,
            19). "Christians must hate to lie and every way of injustice." (Ps
            119, 163). "I hate the double-minded but I love your Law (Ps 119:13).

            "A common misconception is that hatred is never an option and should
            not exist in the vocabulary of the pious God-loving, peace-loving and
            mature Christian. But the Holy Romanian Father Cleopa states that
            there is a form of hatred that is not only allowed, but commendable
            in the life of the devout Christian. The type of hatred that our Lord
            Jesus Christ refers to in the second chapter of the book of the
            Revelation: "You hate the works of the Nicolaitans which I also
            hate." (Rev. 2:6)".

            http://holyorthodoxy.tripod.com/romanianfathers.html

            If you are a member of the ROCOR, you know that the only reason that
            ROCOR is stil in existence is that the MP is still in existence.

            The ROCOR must reunite with the rest of the Russian Church (and thus
            disappear as such) as soon as freedom to reunite has returned. The
            discussion that we have is about the fact that, if freedom has
            returned in Russia, we should unite with the MP, but only if it is a
            part of the real Church.

            So thus, the question of the MP's nature is capital for any member of
            the ROCOR. The schism that we experience stems from the disagreement
            as to whether or not the MP is the real Church.

            In message 8522, I have mentioned Father Alexander Lebedeff's 1994
            opinion, following which a merge with the MP would mean ROCOR failing
            in her mission. Father John has explained to us that Father Alexander
            in the meantime had changed his mind.

            Below however is recent information supporting the notion that the MP
            is still strongly in KGB's hands and yet for some quite some time to
            come.

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff

            "The Moscow Helsinki group has distributed the text of a letter from
            one of its members, priest George Edelstein to the president of
            Russia Vladimir Putin. The occasion for the letter is the recent
            award in the Kremlin of the order of Friendship to metropolitan of
            Voronezh and Lipetsk, Mefodii.

            The author of the letter remarks that this bishop of the MP, along
            with the metropolitan of Smolensk and Kaliningrad Cyril, in
            connection with the recent worsening of patriarch Aleksii's health,
            is considered as a probable candidate to the patriarchal throne.

            George Edelstein provides evidence indicating that metropolitan
            Mefodii in the past was an officer of the KGB and besides had in the
            Church the reputation of being an atheist and of living in vice.

            As to metropolitan Cyril, according to Father George, he has long
            been heading the Department of External Church Relations ("RPTS"),
            formerly " the secret KGB centre of the agency among believers ".
            According to the press, his name has also been associated with well-
            known scandalous financial frauds in the recent past.

            In George Edelstein's opinion the "deep infiltration by agencies of
            the special services in religious associations... represents a
            serious danger to society and the State... the president should be
            concerned about this".

            http://www.compromat.ru/main/rpc/mefodij.htm




            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
            <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
            > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
            > Dear Vladimir Moss,
            > Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to
            figure out why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so
            much against them. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the
            Moscow Patriarchate so I don't have any special interest with them. I
            feel bad that you would spend so much time bashing another Orthodox
            Jurisdiction.
            > Love in Christ,
            > Sub-deacon Lawrence
            >
            > VladMoss@a... wrote:
            > In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time,
            vrevjrs@e...
            > writes:
            >
            >
            > > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
            > > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present Patriarch,
            after
            > > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
            > >
            > > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we could
            never
            > > have been mistaken in the past.
            >
            >
            >
            > Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible.
            But what's
            > worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were
            in the past,
            > that you were right in the past and are wrong now.
            >
            > There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to
            change its
            > spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their
            spots.
            >
            > Vladimir Moss
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


            Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

            Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            ---------------------------------
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            Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • vkozyreff
            Dear Lawrence, The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to pray. « Watch
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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              Dear Lawrence,

              The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become
              tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to pray.

              « Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
              spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Mark 14:37-39)

              You are perfectly right in saying that we should pray for the
              sinners.

              I think however you are mistaken when you say that we should pray
              *instead* of denouncing the sin. Denouncing the sin and praying for
              the sinner are both inseparable obligations for the Christian. The
              horror of their sin is the reason why we must pray for them and why
              we cannot endorse their sin by associating with them before they
              renounced it.

              « It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
              punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
              heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion ». (St. Cyril of
              Alexandria).

              It is an error to believe that we should chose between faith and
              love. None can suffer from the other. Both are inseparable. This was
              discussed many times on this site.

              "Frequently, on this forum and in many other circumstances, the
              relationship of our Church with the heretical MP is presented in a
              wrong way, in my opinion. That is why many around us believe that we
              must soften somewhat the rigor of the dogma in order to accommodate
              the necessity to love the victims of heresy and apostasy". (message
              6598).

              Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext of
              brotherly love.

              « Do not, even for the sake of defending the faith, converse with
              heretics, for fear less their words instill their venom into thy
              mind. If thou meet with a book said to be by one of the heretics,
              read it not, lest it fill thy heart with deadly poison; but so
              continue in that doctrine which thou hast learnt in holy church, as
              neither to add or to take from it. « Isaias, Abbot [4th Cent.]


              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff


              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
              <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
              > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
              > Dear Vladimir,
              > Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time
              PRAYING for the MP. I know that there are probably KGB agents etc. in
              the MP, but I would rather have what we have today than what we had
              in the 60's 70's and 80's. At least the Church has a chance to grow
              and eventually be pure. Besides, who am I to make a harsh judgement
              on others. I'm sorry if I offended you guys,but I would rather spend
              my time praying for the MP, not hating it.
              > Love in Christ,
              > Sub-deacon Lawrence
              >
              > vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
              > Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence,
              >
              > You write: "I don't have any special interest with them…I have yet
              to
              > figure out why you hate them so much".
              >
              > "I hated injustice and I loved your law. " (Ps 119, 163), (Rom. 12,
              > 19). "Christians must hate to lie and every way of injustice." (Ps
              > 119, 163). "I hate the double-minded but I love your Law (Ps
              119:13).
              >
              > "A common misconception is that hatred is never an option and
              should
              > not exist in the vocabulary of the pious God-loving, peace-loving
              and
              > mature Christian. But the Holy Romanian Father Cleopa states that
              > there is a form of hatred that is not only allowed, but commendable
              > in the life of the devout Christian. The type of hatred that our
              Lord
              > Jesus Christ refers to in the second chapter of the book of the
              > Revelation: "You hate the works of the Nicolaitans which I also
              > hate." (Rev. 2:6)".
              >
              > http://holyorthodoxy.tripod.com/romanianfathers.html
              >
              > If you are a member of the ROCOR, you know that the only reason
              that
              > ROCOR is stil in existence is that the MP is still in existence.
              >
              > The ROCOR must reunite with the rest of the Russian Church (and
              thus
              > disappear as such) as soon as freedom to reunite has returned. The
              > discussion that we have is about the fact that, if freedom has
              > returned in Russia, we should unite with the MP, but only if it is
              a
              > part of the real Church.
              >
              > So thus, the question of the MP's nature is capital for any member
              of
              > the ROCOR. The schism that we experience stems from the
              disagreement
              > as to whether or not the MP is the real Church.
              >
              > In message 8522, I have mentioned Father Alexander Lebedeff's 1994
              > opinion, following which a merge with the MP would mean ROCOR
              failing
              > in her mission. Father John has explained to us that Father
              Alexander
              > in the meantime had changed his mind.
              >
              > Below however is recent information supporting the notion that the
              MP
              > is still strongly in KGB's hands and yet for some quite some time
              to
              > come.
              >
              > In God,
              >
              > Vladimir Kozyreff
              >
              > "The Moscow Helsinki group has distributed the text of a letter
              from
              > one of its members, priest George Edelstein to the president of
              > Russia Vladimir Putin. The occasion for the letter is the recent
              > award in the Kremlin of the order of Friendship to metropolitan of
              > Voronezh and Lipetsk, Mefodii.
              >
              > The author of the letter remarks that this bishop of the MP, along
              > with the metropolitan of Smolensk and Kaliningrad Cyril, in
              > connection with the recent worsening of patriarch Aleksii's health,
              > is considered as a probable candidate to the patriarchal throne.
              >
              > George Edelstein provides evidence indicating that metropolitan
              > Mefodii in the past was an officer of the KGB and besides had in
              the
              > Church the reputation of being an atheist and of living in vice.
              >
              > As to metropolitan Cyril, according to Father George, he has long
              > been heading the Department of External Church Relations ("RPTS"),
              > formerly " the secret KGB centre of the agency among believers ".
              > According to the press, his name has also been associated with well-
              > known scandalous financial frauds in the recent past.
              >
              > In George Edelstein's opinion the "deep infiltration by agencies of
              > the special services in religious associations... represents a
              > serious danger to society and the State... the president should be
              > concerned about this".
              >
              > http://www.compromat.ru/main/rpc/mefodij.htm
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
              > <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
              > > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
              > > Dear Vladimir Moss,
              > > Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to
              > figure out why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so
              > much against them. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of
              the
              > Moscow Patriarchate so I don't have any special interest with them.
              I
              > feel bad that you would spend so much time bashing another Orthodox
              > Jurisdiction.
              > > Love in Christ,
              > > Sub-deacon Lawrence
              > >
              > > VladMoss@a... wrote:
              > > In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time,
              > vrevjrs@e...
              > > writes:
              > >
              > >
              > > > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
              > > > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present
              Patriarch,
              > after
              > > > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
              > > >
              > > > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we
              could
              > never
              > > > have been mistaken in the past.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible.
              > But what's
              > > worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were
              > in the past,
              > > that you were right in the past and are wrong now.
              > >
              > > There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to
              > change its
              > > spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their
              > spots.
              > >
              > > Vladimir Moss
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
              > >
              > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
              >
              > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • VladMoss@aol.com
              In a message dated 03/06/03 04:18:39 GMT Daylight Time, ... Pray for them by all means - and for the other Russian jurisdictions, such as Suzdal, ROCOR (V),
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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                In a message dated 03/06/03 04:18:39 GMT Daylight Time,
                larrymost2002@... writes:


                > Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time PRAYING for
                > the MP. I know that there are probably KGB agents etc. in the MP, but I
                > would rather have what we have today than what we had in the 60's 70's and 80's.
                > At least the Church has a chance to grow and eventually be pure. Besides, who
                > am I to make a harsh judgement on others. I'm sorry if I offended you
                > guys,but I would rather spend my time praying for the MP, not hating it.
                >

                Pray for them by all means - and for the other Russian jurisdictions, such as
                Suzdal, ROCOR (V), the Seraphimo-Gennadiites, who are all more Orthodox than
                the MP.

                But don't think that you can remain truly Orthodox if you do not hate the
                enemies of Orthodoxy with the kind of "perfect hatred" that the Prophet David
                speaks about. In other words, a hatred that has no personal element in it, no
                fallen passion it it, but only unalloyed zeal for the truth.

                This is not an option, this is a duty. We are reminded of it every Sunday of
                Orthodoxy when, with a pure zeal for the truth, we anathematize all the
                enemies of Orthodoxy.

                Vladimir Moss


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • V. Boitchenko
                Dear Mr. Kozyrev, May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused. Are you sure you are in the
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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                  Dear Mr. Kozyrev,

                  May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused. Are you sure you are in the right church? Do you have any authority to accuse anyone of heresy or should it be the Council to have such authority? I also wonder if you (or anyone else) individually have any authority to apply anathemas as they feel fit in order to suit their political convictions. I do not know that the Synod has ever stated officially that all the anathemas against ecumenism or any other false doctrine specifically apply to the Moscow Patriarchate, and therefore MP is "heretical." If it is only your personal opinion please say so.

                  v.


                  Dear Lawrence,

                  The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become
                  tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to pray.

                  « Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
                  spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Mark 14:37-39)

                  You are perfectly right in saying that we should pray for the
                  sinners.

                  I think however you are mistaken when you say that we should pray
                  *instead* of denouncing the sin. Denouncing the sin and praying for
                  the sinner are both inseparable obligations for the Christian. The
                  horror of their sin is the reason why we must pray for them and why
                  we cannot endorse their sin by associating with them before they
                  renounced it.

                  « It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
                  punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
                  heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion ». (St. Cyril of
                  Alexandria).

                  It is an error to believe that we should chose between faith and
                  love. None can suffer from the other. Both are inseparable. This was
                  discussed many times on this site.

                  "Frequently, on this forum and in many other circumstances, the
                  relationship of our Church with the heretical MP is presented in a
                  wrong way, in my opinion. That is why many around us believe that we
                  must soften somewhat the rigor of the dogma in order to accommodate
                  the necessity to love the victims of heresy and apostasy". (message
                  6598).

                  Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext of
                  brotherly love.

                  « Do not, even for the sake of defending the faith, converse with
                  heretics, for fear less their words instill their venom into thy
                  mind. If thou meet with a book said to be by one of the heretics,
                  read it not, lest it fill thy heart with deadly poison; but so
                  continue in that doctrine which thou hast learnt in holy church, as
                  neither to add or to take from it. « Isaias, Abbot [4th Cent.]


                  In God,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • frpeterjackson
                  I also think it is time to abolish the EP in Istanbul and promote the MP to First among Equals . ... Of course, even if the EP were to fall away from the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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                    I also think it is time to abolish the EP in Istanbul and promote the
                    MP to 'First among Equals'.
                    >
                    > Alban

                    Of course, even if the EP were to fall away from the Church, as Rome
                    did a millenium ago, the highest ranking patriarchate would then be
                    Alexandria.

                    Priest Peter Jackson
                  • sergerust2002
                    ... Dear Mr Boytchenko, Do you mean that ROCOR *has not* been watchful for 80 years ? Where do you think Mr Kozyreff is at odds with ROCOR teaching ? Your
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 4, 2003
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                      Mr Kozyreff wrote:
                      > The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years,
                      > and we have become tired of defending the faith.

                      Mr Boytchenko answered:
                      > May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak
                      > in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused.
                      > Are you sure you are in the right church?


                      Dear Mr Boytchenko,

                      Do you mean that ROCOR *has not* been watchful for 80 years ?

                      Where do you think Mr Kozyreff is at odds with ROCOR teaching ?

                      Your rhetorical question "Are you sure you are in the right
                      church ?" does not bring any evidence to the subject. It is simply an
                      ad hominem consideration. The debated question is not whether Mr
                      Kozyreff is sure or not sure of his opinions.

                      The debated question is much more important. Its importance is
                      recognized by the Sobor, since it is has appointed a Commission for
                      the "Unity of the Russian Church" (while Metropolitan Vitaly
                      claims that such commission has no object).

                      Maybe it would be more clear to put it this way : How come you do not
                      ask to Fr John Show "Are you sure you are in the right church ?",
                      when he claims that the anathema against ecumenism was "a damage" ?

                      In Christ,

                      Serge Rust
                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear Mr Boitchenko, Thank you for your message. Your question: May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 4, 2003
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                        Dear Mr Boitchenko,

                        Thank you for your message.

                        Your question: May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any
                        authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused.

                        I do not speak in the name of ROCOR, I just express what she has
                        always taught me (and you, if you are orthodox). If I say "the ROCOR
                        has been faithful for eighty years", I make a statement, which I
                        claim to be correct, and which, I claim, will be supported by most
                        believers.

                        Your question: Are you sure you are in the right church?

                        Yes, I am in the orthodox Church.

                        Your question: Do you have any authority to accuse anyone of heresy
                        or should it be the Council to have such authority?

                        Stating that the MP is heretical is not exerting any authority or
                        accusing it any longer in our days. It is just mentioning a well know
                        established fact. Since ecumenism and sergianism are heresies, and
                        have been anathematised, professing them is being heretical. In the
                        same way, calling the Latino-catholic heretical is not accusing them
                        any more. It is mentioning an established fact.

                        Your question: I also wonder if you (or anyone else) individually
                        have any authority to apply anathemas as they feel fit in order to
                        suit their political convictions.

                        I did not apply any anathema. An anathema is not "applied". An
                        anathema has been proclaimed or has not. It is as simple as that. If
                        you knowingly profess an opinion that has been anathematised, you are
                        anathema without any further administrative measure.

                        Since sergianism and ecumenism were anathematised, those who profess
                        them are anathema. "Ya zdyes ni pri chom". To hate sergianism and
                        ecumenism is not political, it is being faithful to orthodoxy.

                        Your question: I do not know that the Synod has ever stated
                        officially that all the anathemas against ecumenism or any other
                        false doctrine specifically apply to the Moscow Patriarchate, and
                        therefore MP is "heretical." If it is only your personal opinion
                        please say so.

                        God does not know "official statements" and does not need them. An
                        anathema applies to all those who profess the positions that have
                        been anathematised, whether officially confirmed or not. The anathema
                        is God's judgement and the Church only explicitly expresses it. As
                        explained by Vladimir Moss, (Message 8513), all heresies and heretics
                        are anathematised 'from all eternity' by the eternal Lord, for just
                        as every truth is approved by the Truth Himself from all eternity, so
                        is every lie and condemned by Him from all eternity, being condemned
                        with 'the father of lies' to the gehenna of fire (Revelation 22.15).

                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyrrev

                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "V. Boitchenko"
                        <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                        > Dear Mr. Kozyrev,
                        >
                        > May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak
                        in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused. Are you sure you are
                        in the right church? Do you have any authority to accuse anyone of
                        heresy or should it be the Council to have such authority? I also
                        wonder if you (or anyone else) individually have any authority to
                        apply anathemas as they feel fit in order to suit their political
                        convictions. I do not know that the Synod has ever stated officially
                        that all the anathemas against ecumenism or any other false doctrine
                        specifically apply to the Moscow Patriarchate, and therefore MP
                        is "heretical." If it is only your personal opinion please say so.
                        >
                        > v.
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear Lawrence,
                        >
                        > The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become
                        > tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to
                        pray.
                        >
                        > « Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
                        > spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Mark 14:37-39)
                        >
                        > You are perfectly right in saying that we should pray for the
                        > sinners.
                        >
                        > I think however you are mistaken when you say that we should pray
                        > *instead* of denouncing the sin. Denouncing the sin and praying
                        for
                        > the sinner are both inseparable obligations for the Christian.
                        The
                        > horror of their sin is the reason why we must pray for them and
                        why
                        > we cannot endorse their sin by associating with them before they
                        > renounced it.
                        >
                        > « It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
                        > punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
                        > heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion ». (St. Cyril
                        of
                        > Alexandria).
                        >
                        > It is an error to believe that we should chose between faith and
                        > love. None can suffer from the other. Both are inseparable. This
                        was
                        > discussed many times on this site.
                        >
                        > "Frequently, on this forum and in many other circumstances, the
                        > relationship of our Church with the heretical MP is presented in
                        a
                        > wrong way, in my opinion. That is why many around us believe that
                        we
                        > must soften somewhat the rigor of the dogma in order to
                        accommodate
                        > the necessity to love the victims of heresy and apostasy".
                        (message
                        > 6598).
                        >
                        > Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext
                        of
                        > brotherly love.
                        >
                        > « Do not, even for the sake of defending the faith, converse with
                        > heretics, for fear less their words instill their venom into thy
                        > mind. If thou meet with a book said to be by one of the heretics,
                        > read it not, lest it fill thy heart with deadly poison; but so
                        > continue in that doctrine which thou hast learnt in holy church,
                        as
                        > neither to add or to take from it. « Isaias, Abbot [4th Cent.]
                        >
                        >
                        > In God,
                        >
                        > Vladimir Kozyreff
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • V. Boitchenko
                        Dear Mr. Rust, ... No, I did not mean that. However, can you tell me what is meant by that statement exactly? As Orthodox, I believe that my Church has been
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 4, 2003
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                          Dear Mr. Rust,

                          >>Do you mean that ROCOR *has not* been watchful for 80 years ?

                          No, I did not mean that. However, can you tell me what is meant by that statement exactly? As Orthodox, I believe that my Church has been watchful for 2000 years and not some 80.

                          >>Where do you think Mr. Kozyreff is at odds with ROCOR teaching ?

                          In my opinion Mr. Kozyreff made statements that go beyond what the Church Abroad has taught. Here are some examples:

                          >>VK:...the relationship of our Church with the heretical MP...

                          Our Church has never taught or proclaimed MP to be "heretical." Mr. Kozyreff took the liberty to speak on behalf of the Church and make such claim.

                          >>VK:...Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext of brotherly love...

                          I agree. Let us not. Who is the seducer?

                          >>VK:...and we have become tired of defending the faith...

                          Who is we? Did the Church Abroad or any of its officials ever declare that "they are tired of defending the faith?" Do you believe that is what we teach? If Mr. Kozyreff is "tired after defending the faith for 80 years", my question is not as rhetorical as it seems to you. Anyone who is tired of defending the faith must be in the wrong church.


                          >Your rhetorical question "Are you sure you are in the right
                          >church ?" does not bring any evidence to the subject. It is simply an
                          >ad hominem consideration. The debated question is not whether Mr
                          >Kozyreff is sure or not sure of his opinions.

                          I hope this clarifies what I meant and answers your questions.

                          In XC,

                          v


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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