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Re: Defrocked but First Hierarch Commemorated

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  • vkozyreff
    X B! Dear Father John, bless. Thank you for your enlightening comment about Father Alexander changes. I noticed that you like to point out that things and
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 1, 2003
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      X B!

      Dear Father John, bless.

      Thank you for your enlightening comment about Father Alexander
      changes. I noticed that you like to point out that things and people
      change with time.

      If it is established that Priest P. Cantacuzen (now bishop Ambrose)
      changed his mind since he published his pamphlet in Geneva) (Message
      8505), if so did you, Father Alexander Lebedeff, Father George Larin,
      Bishop Kyrill of Seattle since he wrote "The Spiritual Dead-End Path
      of the Moscow Patriarchate"

      http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/resistance/mp_deadpath.htm,

      and since he published, then removed from the ROCOR oficial website
      his reaction to the 2000 epistle from the MP, if did the sobor of
      bishops changed its mind too since 1974 (Message 8502), can one speak
      legitimately of a "new path" in the ROCOR (That is, a new analysis,
      more adapted to the times)?

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
      > X.B.!
      >
      > > Please consider that what you are suggesting has been
      categorically
      > > opposed by Fathers Alexander Lebedeff and George Larin, as seen
      in
      > > the text below. The latter is taken from a letter that they wrote
      to
      > > the Sobor of our Church in 1994, as a reply to a suggestion to
      unite
      > > with the MP ("the address"):
      > >
      > > "How can one enter negotiations with such infringers of
      concluded,
      > > agreements, bound by all possible signatures and seals (the MP)?
      >
      > JRS: When confronted with this and similar earlier writings, a few
      > weeks or months ago, Fr. Alexander said simply that he had studied
      the
      > present situation, and changed his opinion.
      >
      > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
      > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present Patriarch,
      after
      > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
      >
      > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we could
      never
      > have been mistaken in the past.
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
    • VladMoss@aol.com
      In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time, vrevjrs@execpc.com ... Well, it s nice to know that you know that you re not infallible. But what s
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 1, 2003
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        In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time, vrevjrs@...
        writes:


        > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
        > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present Patriarch, after
        > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
        >
        > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we could never
        > have been mistaken in the past.



        Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible. But what's
        worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were in the past,
        that you were right in the past and are wrong now.

        There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to change its
        spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their spots.

        Vladimir Moss


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • larry most
        CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN Dear Vladimir Moss, Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to figure out why you hate them so much
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
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          CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
          Dear Vladimir Moss,
          Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to figure out why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so much against them. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Moscow Patriarchate so I don't have any special interest with them. I feel bad that you would spend so much time bashing another Orthodox Jurisdiction.
          Love in Christ,
          Sub-deacon Lawrence

          VladMoss@... wrote:
          In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time, vrevjrs@...
          writes:


          > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
          > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present Patriarch, after
          > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
          >
          > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we could never
          > have been mistaken in the past.



          Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible. But what's
          worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were in the past,
          that you were right in the past and are wrong now.

          There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to change its
          spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their spots.

          Vladimir Moss


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vkozyreff
          Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence, You write: I don t have any special interest with them…I have yet to figure out why you hate them so much . I hated injustice and
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
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            Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence,

            You write: "I don't have any special interest with them…I have yet to
            figure out why you hate them so much".

            "I hated injustice and I loved your law. " (Ps 119, 163), (Rom. 12,
            19). "Christians must hate to lie and every way of injustice." (Ps
            119, 163). "I hate the double-minded but I love your Law (Ps 119:13).

            "A common misconception is that hatred is never an option and should
            not exist in the vocabulary of the pious God-loving, peace-loving and
            mature Christian. But the Holy Romanian Father Cleopa states that
            there is a form of hatred that is not only allowed, but commendable
            in the life of the devout Christian. The type of hatred that our Lord
            Jesus Christ refers to in the second chapter of the book of the
            Revelation: "You hate the works of the Nicolaitans which I also
            hate." (Rev. 2:6)".

            http://holyorthodoxy.tripod.com/romanianfathers.html

            If you are a member of the ROCOR, you know that the only reason that
            ROCOR is stil in existence is that the MP is still in existence.

            The ROCOR must reunite with the rest of the Russian Church (and thus
            disappear as such) as soon as freedom to reunite has returned. The
            discussion that we have is about the fact that, if freedom has
            returned in Russia, we should unite with the MP, but only if it is a
            part of the real Church.

            So thus, the question of the MP's nature is capital for any member of
            the ROCOR. The schism that we experience stems from the disagreement
            as to whether or not the MP is the real Church.

            In message 8522, I have mentioned Father Alexander Lebedeff's 1994
            opinion, following which a merge with the MP would mean ROCOR failing
            in her mission. Father John has explained to us that Father Alexander
            in the meantime had changed his mind.

            Below however is recent information supporting the notion that the MP
            is still strongly in KGB's hands and yet for some quite some time to
            come.

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff

            "The Moscow Helsinki group has distributed the text of a letter from
            one of its members, priest George Edelstein to the president of
            Russia Vladimir Putin. The occasion for the letter is the recent
            award in the Kremlin of the order of Friendship to metropolitan of
            Voronezh and Lipetsk, Mefodii.

            The author of the letter remarks that this bishop of the MP, along
            with the metropolitan of Smolensk and Kaliningrad Cyril, in
            connection with the recent worsening of patriarch Aleksii's health,
            is considered as a probable candidate to the patriarchal throne.

            George Edelstein provides evidence indicating that metropolitan
            Mefodii in the past was an officer of the KGB and besides had in the
            Church the reputation of being an atheist and of living in vice.

            As to metropolitan Cyril, according to Father George, he has long
            been heading the Department of External Church Relations ("RPTS"),
            formerly " the secret KGB centre of the agency among believers ".
            According to the press, his name has also been associated with well-
            known scandalous financial frauds in the recent past.

            In George Edelstein's opinion the "deep infiltration by agencies of
            the special services in religious associations... represents a
            serious danger to society and the State... the president should be
            concerned about this".

            http://www.compromat.ru/main/rpc/mefodij.htm




            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
            <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
            > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
            > Dear Vladimir Moss,
            > Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to
            figure out why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so
            much against them. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the
            Moscow Patriarchate so I don't have any special interest with them. I
            feel bad that you would spend so much time bashing another Orthodox
            Jurisdiction.
            > Love in Christ,
            > Sub-deacon Lawrence
            >
            > VladMoss@a... wrote:
            > In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time,
            vrevjrs@e...
            > writes:
            >
            >
            > > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
            > > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present Patriarch,
            after
            > > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
            > >
            > > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we could
            never
            > > have been mistaken in the past.
            >
            >
            >
            > Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible.
            But what's
            > worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were
            in the past,
            > that you were right in the past and are wrong now.
            >
            > There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to
            change its
            > spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their
            spots.
            >
            > Vladimir Moss
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
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            > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • VladMoss@aol.com
            In a message dated 02/06/03 14:08:20 GMT Daylight Time, ... You re quite right, Lawrence, I hate the MP. Not the people in it, the vast majority of whom, of
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
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              In a message dated 02/06/03 14:08:20 GMT Daylight Time,
              larrymost2002@... writes:


              > Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to figure out
              > why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so much against them. I
              > am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Moscow Patriarchate so I
              > don't have any special interest with them. I feel bad that you would spend so
              > much time bashing another Orthodox Jurisdiction.

              You're quite right, Lawrence, I hate the MP. Not the people in it, the vast
              majority of whom, of course, I do not know, but the institution founded by the
              devil and Stalin that is leading so many people to perdition.

              For one who loves the truth, who loves Holy Russia, hatred of the MP is
              natural, right and inevitable. You remember the words of St. Philaret of Moscow
              about the duty of hating the enemies of the faith? The MP is a most dangerous
              enemy of God and of the Orthodox faith. As Archimandrite Constantine Zaitsev used
              to say (as repeated by St. Philaret of New York), the creation of the MP was
              the Bolsheviks' most diabolical deed, far worse than all the physical
              destruction and killings, because it SPIRITUALLY destroys the Russian people and
              deceives other people throughout the world.

              "As for them that hate Thee, O Lord, have I not hated them? And because of
              Thine enemies have I not pined away?

              "With perfect hatred have I hated them; they are reckoned enemies with me"
              (Psalm 138.20-12).

              Vladimir Moss


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • larry most
              CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN Dear Vladimir, Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time PRAYING for the MP. I know that there are
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
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                CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
                Dear Vladimir,
                Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time PRAYING for the MP. I know that there are probably KGB agents etc. in the MP, but I would rather have what we have today than what we had in the 60's 70's and 80's. At least the Church has a chance to grow and eventually be pure. Besides, who am I to make a harsh judgement on others. I'm sorry if I offended you guys,but I would rather spend my time praying for the MP, not hating it.
                Love in Christ,
                Sub-deacon Lawrence

                vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
                Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence,

                You write: "I don't have any special interest with them�I have yet to
                figure out why you hate them so much".

                "I hated injustice and I loved your law. " (Ps 119, 163), (Rom. 12,
                19). "Christians must hate to lie and every way of injustice." (Ps
                119, 163). "I hate the double-minded but I love your Law (Ps 119:13).

                "A common misconception is that hatred is never an option and should
                not exist in the vocabulary of the pious God-loving, peace-loving and
                mature Christian. But the Holy Romanian Father Cleopa states that
                there is a form of hatred that is not only allowed, but commendable
                in the life of the devout Christian. The type of hatred that our Lord
                Jesus Christ refers to in the second chapter of the book of the
                Revelation: "You hate the works of the Nicolaitans which I also
                hate." (Rev. 2:6)".

                http://holyorthodoxy.tripod.com/romanianfathers.html

                If you are a member of the ROCOR, you know that the only reason that
                ROCOR is stil in existence is that the MP is still in existence.

                The ROCOR must reunite with the rest of the Russian Church (and thus
                disappear as such) as soon as freedom to reunite has returned. The
                discussion that we have is about the fact that, if freedom has
                returned in Russia, we should unite with the MP, but only if it is a
                part of the real Church.

                So thus, the question of the MP's nature is capital for any member of
                the ROCOR. The schism that we experience stems from the disagreement
                as to whether or not the MP is the real Church.

                In message 8522, I have mentioned Father Alexander Lebedeff's 1994
                opinion, following which a merge with the MP would mean ROCOR failing
                in her mission. Father John has explained to us that Father Alexander
                in the meantime had changed his mind.

                Below however is recent information supporting the notion that the MP
                is still strongly in KGB's hands and yet for some quite some time to
                come.

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff

                "The Moscow Helsinki group has distributed the text of a letter from
                one of its members, priest George Edelstein to the president of
                Russia Vladimir Putin. The occasion for the letter is the recent
                award in the Kremlin of the order of Friendship to metropolitan of
                Voronezh and Lipetsk, Mefodii.

                The author of the letter remarks that this bishop of the MP, along
                with the metropolitan of Smolensk and Kaliningrad Cyril, in
                connection with the recent worsening of patriarch Aleksii's health,
                is considered as a probable candidate to the patriarchal throne.

                George Edelstein provides evidence indicating that metropolitan
                Mefodii in the past was an officer of the KGB and besides had in the
                Church the reputation of being an atheist and of living in vice.

                As to metropolitan Cyril, according to Father George, he has long
                been heading the Department of External Church Relations ("RPTS"),
                formerly " the secret KGB centre of the agency among believers ".
                According to the press, his name has also been associated with well-
                known scandalous financial frauds in the recent past.

                In George Edelstein's opinion the "deep infiltration by agencies of
                the special services in religious associations... represents a
                serious danger to society and the State... the president should be
                concerned about this".

                http://www.compromat.ru/main/rpc/mefodij.htm




                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
                > Dear Vladimir Moss,
                > Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to
                figure out why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so
                much against them. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the
                Moscow Patriarchate so I don't have any special interest with them. I
                feel bad that you would spend so much time bashing another Orthodox
                Jurisdiction.
                > Love in Christ,
                > Sub-deacon Lawrence
                >
                > VladMoss@a... wrote:
                > In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time,
                vrevjrs@e...
                > writes:
                >
                >
                > > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
                > > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present Patriarch,
                after
                > > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
                > >
                > > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we could
                never
                > > have been mistaken in the past.
                >
                >
                >
                > Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible.
                But what's
                > worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were
                in the past,
                > that you were right in the past and are wrong now.
                >
                > There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to
                change its
                > spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their
                spots.
                >
                > Vladimir Moss
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                >
                > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                ---------------------------------
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • vkozyreff
                Dear Lawrence, The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to pray. « Watch
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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                  Dear Lawrence,

                  The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become
                  tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to pray.

                  « Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
                  spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Mark 14:37-39)

                  You are perfectly right in saying that we should pray for the
                  sinners.

                  I think however you are mistaken when you say that we should pray
                  *instead* of denouncing the sin. Denouncing the sin and praying for
                  the sinner are both inseparable obligations for the Christian. The
                  horror of their sin is the reason why we must pray for them and why
                  we cannot endorse their sin by associating with them before they
                  renounced it.

                  « It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
                  punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
                  heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion ». (St. Cyril of
                  Alexandria).

                  It is an error to believe that we should chose between faith and
                  love. None can suffer from the other. Both are inseparable. This was
                  discussed many times on this site.

                  "Frequently, on this forum and in many other circumstances, the
                  relationship of our Church with the heretical MP is presented in a
                  wrong way, in my opinion. That is why many around us believe that we
                  must soften somewhat the rigor of the dogma in order to accommodate
                  the necessity to love the victims of heresy and apostasy". (message
                  6598).

                  Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext of
                  brotherly love.

                  « Do not, even for the sake of defending the faith, converse with
                  heretics, for fear less their words instill their venom into thy
                  mind. If thou meet with a book said to be by one of the heretics,
                  read it not, lest it fill thy heart with deadly poison; but so
                  continue in that doctrine which thou hast learnt in holy church, as
                  neither to add or to take from it. « Isaias, Abbot [4th Cent.]


                  In God,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff


                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                  <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                  > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
                  > Dear Vladimir,
                  > Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time
                  PRAYING for the MP. I know that there are probably KGB agents etc. in
                  the MP, but I would rather have what we have today than what we had
                  in the 60's 70's and 80's. At least the Church has a chance to grow
                  and eventually be pure. Besides, who am I to make a harsh judgement
                  on others. I'm sorry if I offended you guys,but I would rather spend
                  my time praying for the MP, not hating it.
                  > Love in Christ,
                  > Sub-deacon Lawrence
                  >
                  > vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                  > Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence,
                  >
                  > You write: "I don't have any special interest with them…I have yet
                  to
                  > figure out why you hate them so much".
                  >
                  > "I hated injustice and I loved your law. " (Ps 119, 163), (Rom. 12,
                  > 19). "Christians must hate to lie and every way of injustice." (Ps
                  > 119, 163). "I hate the double-minded but I love your Law (Ps
                  119:13).
                  >
                  > "A common misconception is that hatred is never an option and
                  should
                  > not exist in the vocabulary of the pious God-loving, peace-loving
                  and
                  > mature Christian. But the Holy Romanian Father Cleopa states that
                  > there is a form of hatred that is not only allowed, but commendable
                  > in the life of the devout Christian. The type of hatred that our
                  Lord
                  > Jesus Christ refers to in the second chapter of the book of the
                  > Revelation: "You hate the works of the Nicolaitans which I also
                  > hate." (Rev. 2:6)".
                  >
                  > http://holyorthodoxy.tripod.com/romanianfathers.html
                  >
                  > If you are a member of the ROCOR, you know that the only reason
                  that
                  > ROCOR is stil in existence is that the MP is still in existence.
                  >
                  > The ROCOR must reunite with the rest of the Russian Church (and
                  thus
                  > disappear as such) as soon as freedom to reunite has returned. The
                  > discussion that we have is about the fact that, if freedom has
                  > returned in Russia, we should unite with the MP, but only if it is
                  a
                  > part of the real Church.
                  >
                  > So thus, the question of the MP's nature is capital for any member
                  of
                  > the ROCOR. The schism that we experience stems from the
                  disagreement
                  > as to whether or not the MP is the real Church.
                  >
                  > In message 8522, I have mentioned Father Alexander Lebedeff's 1994
                  > opinion, following which a merge with the MP would mean ROCOR
                  failing
                  > in her mission. Father John has explained to us that Father
                  Alexander
                  > in the meantime had changed his mind.
                  >
                  > Below however is recent information supporting the notion that the
                  MP
                  > is still strongly in KGB's hands and yet for some quite some time
                  to
                  > come.
                  >
                  > In God,
                  >
                  > Vladimir Kozyreff
                  >
                  > "The Moscow Helsinki group has distributed the text of a letter
                  from
                  > one of its members, priest George Edelstein to the president of
                  > Russia Vladimir Putin. The occasion for the letter is the recent
                  > award in the Kremlin of the order of Friendship to metropolitan of
                  > Voronezh and Lipetsk, Mefodii.
                  >
                  > The author of the letter remarks that this bishop of the MP, along
                  > with the metropolitan of Smolensk and Kaliningrad Cyril, in
                  > connection with the recent worsening of patriarch Aleksii's health,
                  > is considered as a probable candidate to the patriarchal throne.
                  >
                  > George Edelstein provides evidence indicating that metropolitan
                  > Mefodii in the past was an officer of the KGB and besides had in
                  the
                  > Church the reputation of being an atheist and of living in vice.
                  >
                  > As to metropolitan Cyril, according to Father George, he has long
                  > been heading the Department of External Church Relations ("RPTS"),
                  > formerly " the secret KGB centre of the agency among believers ".
                  > According to the press, his name has also been associated with well-
                  > known scandalous financial frauds in the recent past.
                  >
                  > In George Edelstein's opinion the "deep infiltration by agencies of
                  > the special services in religious associations... represents a
                  > serious danger to society and the State... the president should be
                  > concerned about this".
                  >
                  > http://www.compromat.ru/main/rpc/mefodij.htm
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                  > <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                  > > CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
                  > > Dear Vladimir Moss,
                  > > Your very low opinion of the MP is simply amazing. I have yet to
                  > figure out why you hate them so much and why you like to argue so
                  > much against them. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of
                  the
                  > Moscow Patriarchate so I don't have any special interest with them.
                  I
                  > feel bad that you would spend so much time bashing another Orthodox
                  > Jurisdiction.
                  > > Love in Christ,
                  > > Sub-deacon Lawrence
                  > >
                  > > VladMoss@a... wrote:
                  > > In a message dated 31/05/03 22:44:30 GMT Daylight Time,
                  > vrevjrs@e...
                  > > writes:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > When I was a student at Jordanville, I wrote an article
                  > > > in "Pravoslavnaya Rus" in which I attacked the present
                  Patriarch,
                  > after
                  > > > I had met him (he was then Metropolitan of Talinn).
                  > > >
                  > > > None of us is infallible. There is no good in pretending we
                  could
                  > never
                  > > > have been mistaken in the past.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Well, it's nice to know that you know that you're not infallible.
                  > But what's
                  > > worrying is the fact that you are more fallible now than you were
                  > in the past,
                  > > that you were right in the past and are wrong now.
                  > >
                  > > There's a saying in the Bible about a leopard not being able to
                  > change its
                  > > spots. KGB agents such as Drozdov and Putin do not change their
                  > spots.
                  > >
                  > > Vladimir Moss
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  > >
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                  > Service.
                  > >
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                  > > ---------------------------------
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                  > > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
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                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  >
                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • VladMoss@aol.com
                  In a message dated 03/06/03 04:18:39 GMT Daylight Time, ... Pray for them by all means - and for the other Russian jurisdictions, such as Suzdal, ROCOR (V),
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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                    In a message dated 03/06/03 04:18:39 GMT Daylight Time,
                    larrymost2002@... writes:


                    > Rather than railing against the MP I would rather spend my time PRAYING for
                    > the MP. I know that there are probably KGB agents etc. in the MP, but I
                    > would rather have what we have today than what we had in the 60's 70's and 80's.
                    > At least the Church has a chance to grow and eventually be pure. Besides, who
                    > am I to make a harsh judgement on others. I'm sorry if I offended you
                    > guys,but I would rather spend my time praying for the MP, not hating it.
                    >

                    Pray for them by all means - and for the other Russian jurisdictions, such as
                    Suzdal, ROCOR (V), the Seraphimo-Gennadiites, who are all more Orthodox than
                    the MP.

                    But don't think that you can remain truly Orthodox if you do not hate the
                    enemies of Orthodoxy with the kind of "perfect hatred" that the Prophet David
                    speaks about. In other words, a hatred that has no personal element in it, no
                    fallen passion it it, but only unalloyed zeal for the truth.

                    This is not an option, this is a duty. We are reminded of it every Sunday of
                    Orthodoxy when, with a pure zeal for the truth, we anathematize all the
                    enemies of Orthodoxy.

                    Vladimir Moss


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • V. Boitchenko
                    Dear Mr. Kozyrev, May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused. Are you sure you are in the
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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                      Dear Mr. Kozyrev,

                      May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused. Are you sure you are in the right church? Do you have any authority to accuse anyone of heresy or should it be the Council to have such authority? I also wonder if you (or anyone else) individually have any authority to apply anathemas as they feel fit in order to suit their political convictions. I do not know that the Synod has ever stated officially that all the anathemas against ecumenism or any other false doctrine specifically apply to the Moscow Patriarchate, and therefore MP is "heretical." If it is only your personal opinion please say so.

                      v.


                      Dear Lawrence,

                      The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become
                      tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to pray.

                      « Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
                      spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Mark 14:37-39)

                      You are perfectly right in saying that we should pray for the
                      sinners.

                      I think however you are mistaken when you say that we should pray
                      *instead* of denouncing the sin. Denouncing the sin and praying for
                      the sinner are both inseparable obligations for the Christian. The
                      horror of their sin is the reason why we must pray for them and why
                      we cannot endorse their sin by associating with them before they
                      renounced it.

                      « It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
                      punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
                      heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion ». (St. Cyril of
                      Alexandria).

                      It is an error to believe that we should chose between faith and
                      love. None can suffer from the other. Both are inseparable. This was
                      discussed many times on this site.

                      "Frequently, on this forum and in many other circumstances, the
                      relationship of our Church with the heretical MP is presented in a
                      wrong way, in my opinion. That is why many around us believe that we
                      must soften somewhat the rigor of the dogma in order to accommodate
                      the necessity to love the victims of heresy and apostasy". (message
                      6598).

                      Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext of
                      brotherly love.

                      « Do not, even for the sake of defending the faith, converse with
                      heretics, for fear less their words instill their venom into thy
                      mind. If thou meet with a book said to be by one of the heretics,
                      read it not, lest it fill thy heart with deadly poison; but so
                      continue in that doctrine which thou hast learnt in holy church, as
                      neither to add or to take from it. « Isaias, Abbot [4th Cent.]


                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • frpeterjackson
                      I also think it is time to abolish the EP in Istanbul and promote the MP to First among Equals . ... Of course, even if the EP were to fall away from the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
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                        I also think it is time to abolish the EP in Istanbul and promote the
                        MP to 'First among Equals'.
                        >
                        > Alban

                        Of course, even if the EP were to fall away from the Church, as Rome
                        did a millenium ago, the highest ranking patriarchate would then be
                        Alexandria.

                        Priest Peter Jackson
                      • sergerust2002
                        ... Dear Mr Boytchenko, Do you mean that ROCOR *has not* been watchful for 80 years ? Where do you think Mr Kozyreff is at odds with ROCOR teaching ? Your
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 4, 2003
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                          Mr Kozyreff wrote:
                          > The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years,
                          > and we have become tired of defending the faith.

                          Mr Boytchenko answered:
                          > May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak
                          > in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused.
                          > Are you sure you are in the right church?


                          Dear Mr Boytchenko,

                          Do you mean that ROCOR *has not* been watchful for 80 years ?

                          Where do you think Mr Kozyreff is at odds with ROCOR teaching ?

                          Your rhetorical question "Are you sure you are in the right
                          church ?" does not bring any evidence to the subject. It is simply an
                          ad hominem consideration. The debated question is not whether Mr
                          Kozyreff is sure or not sure of his opinions.

                          The debated question is much more important. Its importance is
                          recognized by the Sobor, since it is has appointed a Commission for
                          the "Unity of the Russian Church" (while Metropolitan Vitaly
                          claims that such commission has no object).

                          Maybe it would be more clear to put it this way : How come you do not
                          ask to Fr John Show "Are you sure you are in the right church ?",
                          when he claims that the anathema against ecumenism was "a damage" ?

                          In Christ,

                          Serge Rust
                        • vkozyreff
                          Dear Mr Boitchenko, Thank you for your message. Your question: May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 4, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Mr Boitchenko,

                            Thank you for your message.

                            Your question: May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any
                            authority to speak in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused.

                            I do not speak in the name of ROCOR, I just express what she has
                            always taught me (and you, if you are orthodox). If I say "the ROCOR
                            has been faithful for eighty years", I make a statement, which I
                            claim to be correct, and which, I claim, will be supported by most
                            believers.

                            Your question: Are you sure you are in the right church?

                            Yes, I am in the orthodox Church.

                            Your question: Do you have any authority to accuse anyone of heresy
                            or should it be the Council to have such authority?

                            Stating that the MP is heretical is not exerting any authority or
                            accusing it any longer in our days. It is just mentioning a well know
                            established fact. Since ecumenism and sergianism are heresies, and
                            have been anathematised, professing them is being heretical. In the
                            same way, calling the Latino-catholic heretical is not accusing them
                            any more. It is mentioning an established fact.

                            Your question: I also wonder if you (or anyone else) individually
                            have any authority to apply anathemas as they feel fit in order to
                            suit their political convictions.

                            I did not apply any anathema. An anathema is not "applied". An
                            anathema has been proclaimed or has not. It is as simple as that. If
                            you knowingly profess an opinion that has been anathematised, you are
                            anathema without any further administrative measure.

                            Since sergianism and ecumenism were anathematised, those who profess
                            them are anathema. "Ya zdyes ni pri chom". To hate sergianism and
                            ecumenism is not political, it is being faithful to orthodoxy.

                            Your question: I do not know that the Synod has ever stated
                            officially that all the anathemas against ecumenism or any other
                            false doctrine specifically apply to the Moscow Patriarchate, and
                            therefore MP is "heretical." If it is only your personal opinion
                            please say so.

                            God does not know "official statements" and does not need them. An
                            anathema applies to all those who profess the positions that have
                            been anathematised, whether officially confirmed or not. The anathema
                            is God's judgement and the Church only explicitly expresses it. As
                            explained by Vladimir Moss, (Message 8513), all heresies and heretics
                            are anathematised 'from all eternity' by the eternal Lord, for just
                            as every truth is approved by the Truth Himself from all eternity, so
                            is every lie and condemned by Him from all eternity, being condemned
                            with 'the father of lies' to the gehenna of fire (Revelation 22.15).

                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyrrev

                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "V. Boitchenko"
                            <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                            > Dear Mr. Kozyrev,
                            >
                            > May I ask if someone in the Synod gave you any authority to speak
                            in the name of the ROCOR? I am really confused. Are you sure you are
                            in the right church? Do you have any authority to accuse anyone of
                            heresy or should it be the Council to have such authority? I also
                            wonder if you (or anyone else) individually have any authority to
                            apply anathemas as they feel fit in order to suit their political
                            convictions. I do not know that the Synod has ever stated officially
                            that all the anathemas against ecumenism or any other false doctrine
                            specifically apply to the Moscow Patriarchate, and therefore MP
                            is "heretical." If it is only your personal opinion please say so.
                            >
                            > v.
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Lawrence,
                            >
                            > The ROCOR has been watchful for eighty years, and we have become
                            > tired of defending the faith. That is the first reason for us to
                            pray.
                            >
                            > « Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
                            > spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Mark 14:37-39)
                            >
                            > You are perfectly right in saying that we should pray for the
                            > sinners.
                            >
                            > I think however you are mistaken when you say that we should pray
                            > *instead* of denouncing the sin. Denouncing the sin and praying
                            for
                            > the sinner are both inseparable obligations for the Christian.
                            The
                            > horror of their sin is the reason why we must pray for them and
                            why
                            > we cannot endorse their sin by associating with them before they
                            > renounced it.
                            >
                            > « It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
                            > punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
                            > heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion ». (St. Cyril
                            of
                            > Alexandria).
                            >
                            > It is an error to believe that we should chose between faith and
                            > love. None can suffer from the other. Both are inseparable. This
                            was
                            > discussed many times on this site.
                            >
                            > "Frequently, on this forum and in many other circumstances, the
                            > relationship of our Church with the heretical MP is presented in
                            a
                            > wrong way, in my opinion. That is why many around us believe that
                            we
                            > must soften somewhat the rigor of the dogma in order to
                            accommodate
                            > the necessity to love the victims of heresy and apostasy".
                            (message
                            > 6598).
                            >
                            > Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext
                            of
                            > brotherly love.
                            >
                            > « Do not, even for the sake of defending the faith, converse with
                            > heretics, for fear less their words instill their venom into thy
                            > mind. If thou meet with a book said to be by one of the heretics,
                            > read it not, lest it fill thy heart with deadly poison; but so
                            > continue in that doctrine which thou hast learnt in holy church,
                            as
                            > neither to add or to take from it. « Isaias, Abbot [4th Cent.]
                            >
                            >
                            > In God,
                            >
                            > Vladimir Kozyreff
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • V. Boitchenko
                            Dear Mr. Rust, ... No, I did not mean that. However, can you tell me what is meant by that statement exactly? As Orthodox, I believe that my Church has been
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 4, 2003
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                              Dear Mr. Rust,

                              >>Do you mean that ROCOR *has not* been watchful for 80 years ?

                              No, I did not mean that. However, can you tell me what is meant by that statement exactly? As Orthodox, I believe that my Church has been watchful for 2000 years and not some 80.

                              >>Where do you think Mr. Kozyreff is at odds with ROCOR teaching ?

                              In my opinion Mr. Kozyreff made statements that go beyond what the Church Abroad has taught. Here are some examples:

                              >>VK:...the relationship of our Church with the heretical MP...

                              Our Church has never taught or proclaimed MP to be "heretical." Mr. Kozyreff took the liberty to speak on behalf of the Church and make such claim.

                              >>VK:...Let us not overlook the danger of being seduced under the pretext of brotherly love...

                              I agree. Let us not. Who is the seducer?

                              >>VK:...and we have become tired of defending the faith...

                              Who is we? Did the Church Abroad or any of its officials ever declare that "they are tired of defending the faith?" Do you believe that is what we teach? If Mr. Kozyreff is "tired after defending the faith for 80 years", my question is not as rhetorical as it seems to you. Anyone who is tired of defending the faith must be in the wrong church.


                              >Your rhetorical question "Are you sure you are in the right
                              >church ?" does not bring any evidence to the subject. It is simply an
                              >ad hominem consideration. The debated question is not whether Mr
                              >Kozyreff is sure or not sure of his opinions.

                              I hope this clarifies what I meant and answers your questions.

                              In XC,

                              v


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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