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Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan Anthony

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear V, Regarding the possibility of ROCOR to make the MP change course after the reunion, even Father Alexander Lebedeff does not believe in it. We all know
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 8, 2003
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      Dear V,

      Regarding the possibility of ROCOR to make the MP change course
      after the reunion, even Father Alexander Lebedeff does not believe in
      it.

      We all know where Vl Mark did study, but we also know that his
      application to the Trinity St Sergius Lavra was turned down.

      You write: "How can we not accept "just" a discussion (with the MP)?
      There are many recommendations to the contrary in the Holy Fathers.

      This letter is probably a hoax, but it has been an interesting
      opportunity to exchange ideas.

      The good thing is that this time we did not fight. Glory to God.

      In Christ,

      Vladimir Kozyreff

      PS I have a special friendship to your family (your father and your
      sister), with regards to the marvellous memories that my children
      have kept of their Vitiazi years. This friendship automatically
      spills over to you.


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Artzimovitch"
      <vartzimovitch@v...> wrote:
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
      > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
      > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
      Metropolitan
      > Anthony
      >
      > Please allow some comments:
      >
      > Dear Father Daniel, bless.
      >
      > I thank you for your good words.
      >
      > You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
      > discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
      > out upon him at his consecration?
      >
      > 1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
      > MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
      > to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
      > KGB anti God activity.
      >
      > Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
      > Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very
      different
      > reasons.
      >
      > 2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen
      into
      > schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
      > of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?
      >
      > ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....
      >
      > 3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
      > have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
      > the Church that disagree with one another.
      >
      > ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
      > preasts...?
      >
      > 4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
      > have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
      > were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use.
      We
      > know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
      > longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important
      thing
      > is to be all on the same ship.
      >
      > ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient
      Rome!!!!
      > Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of
      reforms. So is
      > probably MP.
      > Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to
      help the
      > captains to find back the right track...
      > Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....
      >
      > 5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
      > that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
      > possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
      > communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
      > none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
      > ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
      > flock to commune with the MP.
      >
      > Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
      > How can we not accept "just" a discussion?
      >
      > 6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
      > question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
      > ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
      > concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
      > sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.
      >
      > Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a
      statement?
      >
      > V.Artzimovitch
      >
      > In God and asking your prayers,
      >
      > Vladimir Kozyreff
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
      > <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
      > > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
      > > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
      > > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
      > statements?
      > > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
      > does
      > > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
      > > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
      > > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
      > read,
      > > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
      > > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
      > were
      > > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
      > > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
      > > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that
      he
      > > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at
      his
      > > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
      > unthinking
      > > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
      > Orthodoxy
      > > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
      > > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
      > and
      > > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great
      deal.
      > > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
      > on
      > > the InterNet?
      > > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
      >
      >
      >
      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • byakimov@csc.com.au
      Dear Victor Our friend Vladimir meant that our current ROCA Bishops & priests who perefer any dialogue with the MP be undertaken when the ... MP has renounced
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 8, 2003
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        Dear Victor

        Our friend Vladimir meant that our current ROCA Bishops & priests who
        perefer
        any dialogue with the MP be undertaken when the "... MP has renounced
        sergianism and
        ecumenism...." etc. Indeed & I am glad that it is very sizeable!

        protodeacon Basil from Canberra




        "Victor Artzimovitch" <vartzimovitch@...> on 09/04/2003 03:17:03 AM

        Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        cc:
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
        Metropolitan Anthony



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
        Anthony

        Please allow some comments:

        Dear Father Daniel, bless.

        I thank you for your good words.

        You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
        discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
        out upon him at his consecration?

        1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
        MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
        to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
        KGB anti God activity.

        Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
        Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very different
        reasons.

        2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
        schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
        of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

        ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....

        3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
        have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
        the Church that disagree with one another.

        ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
        preasts...?

        4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
        have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
        were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
        know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
        longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
        is to be all on the same ship.

        ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
        Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
        probably MP.
        Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help
        the
        captains to find back the right track...
        Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

        5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
        that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
        possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
        communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
        none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
        ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
        flock to commune with the MP.

        Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
        How can we not accept "just" a discussion?

        6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
        question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
        ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
        concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
        sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

        Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a
        statement?

        V.Artzimovitch

        In God and asking your prayers,

        Vladimir Kozyreff



        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
        <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
        > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
        > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
        > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
        statements?
        > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
        does
        > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
        > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
        > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
        read,
        > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
        > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
        were
        > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
        > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
        > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
        > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
        > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
        unthinking
        > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
        Orthodoxy
        > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
        > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
        and
        > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
        > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
        on
        > the InterNet?
        > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel



        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • cantor71
        ... Well, it is clearly not a hoax, as it has just been posted on the MP website (so far in Russian only). George
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 9, 2003
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
          <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
          >
          > This letter is probably a hoax, but it has been an interesting
          > opportunity to exchange ideas.
          >

          Well, it is clearly not a hoax, as it has just been posted on the MP
          website (so far in Russian only).

          George

          http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/nr304091.htm
        • Michael Nikitin
          From: Victor Artzimovitch Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com To: Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 9, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            From: "Victor Artzimovitch" <vartzimovitch@...>
            Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
            Metropolitan Anthony
            Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:17:03 +0200


            ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
            Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
            probably MP.
            Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help the
            captains to find back the right track...
            Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

            We should change the Church to the times?

            The French did want to stay on course , but the Captains took the new
            course . They are flying the ship and didn't want anyone interfering. I find
            it is hard to help the Captains find back the right track. They won't
            listen. That's why so many left and are leaving.
            Why crash with them when one can take another ship and fly the same safe
            route as our Holy Fathers? Knowing at least that we are following
            the course the Captains took that never crashed.



            6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
            question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
            ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
            concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
            sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

            Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a statement?

            V.Artzimovitch

            ROCOR in it's letter to Patriarch Pavel begged him to pave the way for
            dialogue and eventual union with MP. The MP wrote that ROCOR was in schism
            from the Russian Church. Who's uniting to whom? How will ROCOR be united
            with MP since they are in schism?

            If we are not to waite for MP to show their good will to the faith and
            renounce ecumenism that we Anathemetized, what should we expect from her?
            Some concessions here and there and say they repented?
            The MP have to show a desire to renounce these heresies, otherwise what's
            stopping us from having dialogue with the Muslims, Jews, Latins,
            Protestants, etc....Not a good idea.

            Michael N.



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          • frpeterjackson
            ... The phrase rational sheep is often misunderstood, mainly because of the clumsy tranlation. Rational as used here is an overly-literal rendering of the
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 14, 2003
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              Just an aside: It was said:

              >Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not unthinking
              > automotons.

              The phrase "rational sheep" is often misunderstood, mainly because of
              the clumsy tranlation. "Rational" as used here is an overly-literal
              rendering of the Greek "logikos", which did not mean "logical" at the
              time. (I don't think it took on this sense till the Middle Ages.) It
              come from "logos", meaning the inner, non-literal sense of something,
              rather the the superficial meaning. IOW, "logikos/rational" refers to
              what we what call the metaphorical sense. "Metaphorical", then, is
              the best way to render this (though I doubt anyone will ever bother
              to do so). As Christ's sheep, we are to be reasonable, certainly, but
              the phrase in question has nothing to do w/this. Rather, it simply
              means that we are His "metaphorical sheep", rather than literal cud-
              chewing, bleating creatures.

              Another case which comes to mind is Romans 12:1, which speaks of us
              offering ourselves as living sacrifices because this is
              our "reasonable service". Again, the word "reasonable" is "logikos"
              and should be translated as "metaphorical". More than once I have
              heard (or read) people respond to this passage saying, "Yes, offering
              our bodies as living sacrifices is only reasonable, after all."
              Actually, it's not very reasonable, and if anyone tried to crawl up
              onto the altar table, it would be a problem. "Reasonable" has nothing
              to do with what St. Paul is saying. "Service" here means liturgical
              worship, in the sense of the OT priests sacrificing animals in the
              Temple. St. Paul is merely saying that instead of sacrificing
              animals, we Christians are to offer ourselves; this is how we
              metaphorically serve God around a metaphorical altar. It is true
              service, to be sure, but not in the literal sense of a blood
              sacrifice.

              Fr. Peter Jackson
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