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Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan Anthony

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  • orthodoxchurch_sg
    Dear in Christ Vladimir ~ You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 7 8:22 PM
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      Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
      You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
      you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official statements?
      You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy does
      not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
      respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
      the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have read,
      which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
      forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we were
      not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
      and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
      Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
      does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
      consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not unthinking
      automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in Orthodoxy
      among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
      including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine and
      Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
      Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like on
      the InterNet?
      God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
    • Michael Nikitin
      If dVG did observe the facts he would not be focusing on a signature, but on the Patriarch s proposed union of Churches in Europe. Which was not *merely*
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 7 9:03 PM
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        If dVG did observe the facts he would not be focusing on a signature, but on
        the Patriarch's proposed union of Churches in Europe. Which was not *merely*
        addressed, but a calculated move.

        We know that Bishop Ambrosy permits his priests in France to serve with MP
        and we know Bishops Mark's inclination for union with MP.

        The French,who would oppose such union, are out of the way. The road is
        open in Europe (the French left because of Bishop Ambrosy's leaning for
        union with MP). In America, Canada and Australia more caution is taken,
        because there are still a lot of parishes who are opposing union with MP.

        The MP is in the WCC and prays with heretics.

        In Russia, parishes of ROCOR(V) wanted to register, but were thwarted by
        ROCOR(L) who wrote to the Gov't that they were not a Church. See
        http://www.listok.com in Russian.

        Someone doesn't want the faithful of ROCOR(L) in Russia to go to ROCOR(V)
        when union with MP occurs.

        With the MP nothing is *merely*.

        It will be interesting to see what type of economia is used by the MP when
        ROCOR(L), seen as a schismatic Church by MP, will be embraced.

        Michael N.




        From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>
        Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
        Anthony
        Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 00:45:24 -0000

        What signature? It appears that bishop Amvrosy was merely
        addressed... perhaps another example of how the "super-orthodox"
        observe everything but the facts...
        dVG


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      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father Daniel, bless. I thank you for your good words. You write: Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he does not carry the
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 8 3:48 AM
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          Dear Father Daniel, bless.

          I thank you for your good words.

          You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
          discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
          out upon him at his consecration?

          1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
          MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
          to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
          KGB anti God activity.

          2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
          schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
          of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

          3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
          have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
          the Church that disagree with one another.

          4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
          have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
          were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
          know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
          longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
          is to be all on the same ship.

          5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
          that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
          possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
          communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
          none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
          ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
          flock to commune with the MP.

          6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
          question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
          ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
          concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
          sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

          In God and asking your prayers,

          Vladimir Kozyreff



          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
          <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
          > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
          > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
          > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
          statements?
          > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
          does
          > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
          > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
          > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
          read,
          > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
          > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
          were
          > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
          > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
          > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
          > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
          > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
          unthinking
          > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
          Orthodoxy
          > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
          > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
          and
          > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
          > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
          on
          > the InterNet?
          > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
        • Victor Artzimovitch
          ... From: vkozyreff To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 8 10:17 AM
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
            Anthony

            Please allow some comments:

            Dear Father Daniel, bless.

            I thank you for your good words.

            You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
            discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
            out upon him at his consecration?

            1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
            MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
            to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
            KGB anti God activity.

            Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
            Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very different
            reasons.

            2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
            schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
            of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

            ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....

            3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
            have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
            the Church that disagree with one another.

            ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
            preasts...?

            4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
            have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
            were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
            know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
            longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
            is to be all on the same ship.

            ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
            Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
            probably MP.
            Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help the
            captains to find back the right track...
            Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

            5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
            that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
            possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
            communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
            none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
            ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
            flock to commune with the MP.

            Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
            How can we not accept "just" a discussion?

            6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
            question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
            ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
            concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
            sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

            Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a statement?

            V.Artzimovitch

            In God and asking your prayers,

            Vladimir Kozyreff



            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
            <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
            > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
            > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
            > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
            statements?
            > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
            does
            > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
            > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
            > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
            read,
            > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
            > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
            were
            > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
            > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
            > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
            > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
            > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
            unthinking
            > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
            Orthodoxy
            > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
            > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
            and
            > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
            > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
            on
            > the InterNet?
            > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel



            Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • vkozyreff
            Dear V, Regarding the possibility of ROCOR to make the MP change course after the reunion, even Father Alexander Lebedeff does not believe in it. We all know
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 8 12:26 PM
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              Dear V,

              Regarding the possibility of ROCOR to make the MP change course
              after the reunion, even Father Alexander Lebedeff does not believe in
              it.

              We all know where Vl Mark did study, but we also know that his
              application to the Trinity St Sergius Lavra was turned down.

              You write: "How can we not accept "just" a discussion (with the MP)?
              There are many recommendations to the contrary in the Holy Fathers.

              This letter is probably a hoax, but it has been an interesting
              opportunity to exchange ideas.

              The good thing is that this time we did not fight. Glory to God.

              In Christ,

              Vladimir Kozyreff

              PS I have a special friendship to your family (your father and your
              sister), with regards to the marvellous memories that my children
              have kept of their Vitiazi years. This friendship automatically
              spills over to you.


              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Artzimovitch"
              <vartzimovitch@v...> wrote:
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
              > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
              > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
              Metropolitan
              > Anthony
              >
              > Please allow some comments:
              >
              > Dear Father Daniel, bless.
              >
              > I thank you for your good words.
              >
              > You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
              > discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
              > out upon him at his consecration?
              >
              > 1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
              > MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
              > to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
              > KGB anti God activity.
              >
              > Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
              > Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very
              different
              > reasons.
              >
              > 2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen
              into
              > schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
              > of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?
              >
              > ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....
              >
              > 3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
              > have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
              > the Church that disagree with one another.
              >
              > ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
              > preasts...?
              >
              > 4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
              > have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
              > were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use.
              We
              > know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
              > longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important
              thing
              > is to be all on the same ship.
              >
              > ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient
              Rome!!!!
              > Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of
              reforms. So is
              > probably MP.
              > Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to
              help the
              > captains to find back the right track...
              > Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....
              >
              > 5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
              > that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
              > possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
              > communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
              > none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
              > ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
              > flock to commune with the MP.
              >
              > Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
              > How can we not accept "just" a discussion?
              >
              > 6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
              > question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
              > ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
              > concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
              > sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.
              >
              > Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a
              statement?
              >
              > V.Artzimovitch
              >
              > In God and asking your prayers,
              >
              > Vladimir Kozyreff
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
              > <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
              > > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
              > > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
              > > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
              > statements?
              > > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
              > does
              > > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
              > > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
              > > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
              > read,
              > > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
              > > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
              > were
              > > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
              > > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
              > > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that
              he
              > > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at
              his
              > > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
              > unthinking
              > > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
              > Orthodoxy
              > > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
              > > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
              > and
              > > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great
              deal.
              > > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
              > on
              > > the InterNet?
              > > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
              >
              >
              >
              > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • byakimov@csc.com.au
              Dear Victor Our friend Vladimir meant that our current ROCA Bishops & priests who perefer any dialogue with the MP be undertaken when the ... MP has renounced
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 8 3:31 PM
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                Dear Victor

                Our friend Vladimir meant that our current ROCA Bishops & priests who
                perefer
                any dialogue with the MP be undertaken when the "... MP has renounced
                sergianism and
                ecumenism...." etc. Indeed & I am glad that it is very sizeable!

                protodeacon Basil from Canberra




                "Victor Artzimovitch" <vartzimovitch@...> on 09/04/2003 03:17:03 AM

                Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                cc:
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
                Metropolitan Anthony



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
                Anthony

                Please allow some comments:

                Dear Father Daniel, bless.

                I thank you for your good words.

                You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
                discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
                out upon him at his consecration?

                1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
                MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
                to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
                KGB anti God activity.

                Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
                Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very different
                reasons.

                2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
                schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
                of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

                ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....

                3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
                have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
                the Church that disagree with one another.

                ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
                preasts...?

                4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
                have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
                were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
                know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
                longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
                is to be all on the same ship.

                ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
                Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
                probably MP.
                Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help
                the
                captains to find back the right track...
                Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

                5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
                that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
                possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
                communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
                none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
                ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
                flock to commune with the MP.

                Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
                How can we not accept "just" a discussion?

                6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a
                statement?

                V.Artzimovitch

                In God and asking your prayers,

                Vladimir Kozyreff



                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                statements?
                > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
                does
                > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
                read,
                > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
                were
                > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
                > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
                > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
                unthinking
                > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
                Orthodoxy
                > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
                and
                > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
                > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
                on
                > the InterNet?
                > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel



                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • cantor71
                ... Well, it is clearly not a hoax, as it has just been posted on the MP website (so far in Russian only). George
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 9 7:31 AM
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                  <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                  >
                  > This letter is probably a hoax, but it has been an interesting
                  > opportunity to exchange ideas.
                  >

                  Well, it is clearly not a hoax, as it has just been posted on the MP
                  website (so far in Russian only).

                  George

                  http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/nr304091.htm
                • Michael Nikitin
                  From: Victor Artzimovitch Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com To: Subject: Re:
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 9 9:51 AM
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                    From: "Victor Artzimovitch" <vartzimovitch@...>
                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
                    Metropolitan Anthony
                    Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:17:03 +0200


                    ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
                    Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
                    probably MP.
                    Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help the
                    captains to find back the right track...
                    Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

                    We should change the Church to the times?

                    The French did want to stay on course , but the Captains took the new
                    course . They are flying the ship and didn't want anyone interfering. I find
                    it is hard to help the Captains find back the right track. They won't
                    listen. That's why so many left and are leaving.
                    Why crash with them when one can take another ship and fly the same safe
                    route as our Holy Fathers? Knowing at least that we are following
                    the course the Captains took that never crashed.



                    6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                    question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                    ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                    concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                    sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                    Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a statement?

                    V.Artzimovitch

                    ROCOR in it's letter to Patriarch Pavel begged him to pave the way for
                    dialogue and eventual union with MP. The MP wrote that ROCOR was in schism
                    from the Russian Church. Who's uniting to whom? How will ROCOR be united
                    with MP since they are in schism?

                    If we are not to waite for MP to show their good will to the faith and
                    renounce ecumenism that we Anathemetized, what should we expect from her?
                    Some concessions here and there and say they repented?
                    The MP have to show a desire to renounce these heresies, otherwise what's
                    stopping us from having dialogue with the Muslims, Jews, Latins,
                    Protestants, etc....Not a good idea.

                    Michael N.



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                  • frpeterjackson
                    ... The phrase rational sheep is often misunderstood, mainly because of the clumsy tranlation. Rational as used here is an overly-literal rendering of the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 14 6:52 AM
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                      Just an aside: It was said:

                      >Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not unthinking
                      > automotons.

                      The phrase "rational sheep" is often misunderstood, mainly because of
                      the clumsy tranlation. "Rational" as used here is an overly-literal
                      rendering of the Greek "logikos", which did not mean "logical" at the
                      time. (I don't think it took on this sense till the Middle Ages.) It
                      come from "logos", meaning the inner, non-literal sense of something,
                      rather the the superficial meaning. IOW, "logikos/rational" refers to
                      what we what call the metaphorical sense. "Metaphorical", then, is
                      the best way to render this (though I doubt anyone will ever bother
                      to do so). As Christ's sheep, we are to be reasonable, certainly, but
                      the phrase in question has nothing to do w/this. Rather, it simply
                      means that we are His "metaphorical sheep", rather than literal cud-
                      chewing, bleating creatures.

                      Another case which comes to mind is Romans 12:1, which speaks of us
                      offering ourselves as living sacrifices because this is
                      our "reasonable service". Again, the word "reasonable" is "logikos"
                      and should be translated as "metaphorical". More than once I have
                      heard (or read) people respond to this passage saying, "Yes, offering
                      our bodies as living sacrifices is only reasonable, after all."
                      Actually, it's not very reasonable, and if anyone tried to crawl up
                      onto the altar table, it would be a problem. "Reasonable" has nothing
                      to do with what St. Paul is saying. "Service" here means liturgical
                      worship, in the sense of the OT priests sacrificing animals in the
                      Temple. St. Paul is merely saying that instead of sacrificing
                      animals, we Christians are to offer ourselves; this is how we
                      metaphorically serve God around a metaphorical altar. It is true
                      service, to be sure, but not in the literal sense of a blood
                      sacrifice.

                      Fr. Peter Jackson
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