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Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan Anthony

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  • orthodoxchurch_sg
    Evlogite! Indeed ~ if I am invited to become a Mason, have I erred? If I am asked to a BBQ next week, have I broken the Fast? The desire of the
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 6 9:30 PM
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      Evlogite!
      Indeed ~ if I am invited to become a Mason, have I erred? If I am
      asked to a BBQ next week, have I broken the Fast?
      The desire of the 'super-Orthodox' to run to condemnation does no
      credit to their cause. "Help me to see my own faults and not to judge
      my brother" we pray most days during the Great Lent, but the desire
      on the part of some to condemn and judge their hierarchs sometimes
      beggars belief.
      Fr Daniel
    • boulia_1
      This is indeed interesting and it will be interesting to see the reactions to this letter, particularly from the Synod. My husband pointed out its date: April
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 7 5:15 AM
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        This is indeed interesting and it will be interesting to see the
        reactions to this letter, particularly from the Synod.

        My husband pointed out its date: April Fool's Day (Ne komu ne veri).

        Still, if this letter IS 'for real,' it is interesting that Abp. Mark
        (who is healthy and active; as opposed to Vl. Amvrossy, who is unwell
        and wishes to retire) was not 'invited' to participate in the
        organization of this proposed new Metropolitinate now, even though
        his (ROCOR)diocese includes Great Britain (Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
        is in Great Britain).

        Also, I have heard from my relatives in England that Metropolitan
        Anthony's health is very poor.

        I certainly hope that everyone will restrain themselves from jumping
        to conclusions and rushing to condemn our ROCOR hierarchs; remember,
        THEY did not write this letter (in fact, I wonder who did?).


        Wishing all a joyous Feast of the Annunciation,
        Elizabeth




        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
        <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
        > Dear List,
        >
        > Below is a very interesting document dated April 1, 2003, and
        > particularly the paragraph below, were Vl Amvrosii and vl Mark are
        > invited to collaborate with metropolitan Anthony.
        >
        > "…In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
        > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
        > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
        > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
        > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
        > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual
        powers,
        > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
        > Metropolitan Anthony.
        >
        > At the next stage the Most Reverend Archbishop Mark of Berlin,
        > Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad), the Most
        Reverend
        > Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend Archbishop Feofan of
        > Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend Archbishop Paul of Vienna
        > and Budapest should obviously also be invited to take part in the
        > process, so that the restoration of Church unity in the Russian
        > diaspora can be extended to the countries of Central Europe as
        well…"
        >
        >
        > in God
        >
        > Vladimir Kozyreff
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > http://www.sourozh.org/news/patriarch010403_en.htm
        >
        >
        > The following letter has been received by Metropolitan Anthony and
        he
        > has asked that it be placed on our diocesan website and given
        general
        > distribution. The proposals made in it are quite clearly of great
        > importance for the Diocese of Sourozh. Indeed, if it proves
        possible
        > to implement them, they will significantly affect the development
        of
        > Orthodoxy in Western and Central Europe.
        >
        > + Basil
        >
        > Bishop of Sergievo
        > Assistant Bishop
        > Diocese of Sourozh
        >
        >
        >
        > THE PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
        > ALEXIS
        > 1st April
        >
        2003
        > 119034 Moscow, Chistiy per. 5
        > Doc. No. 1378
        >
        > His Grace the Most Reverend Anthony,
        > Metropolitan of Sourozh
        > His Grace the Most Reverend Simon,
        > Archbishop of Brussels and Belgium
        > His Grace the Most Reverend Innokentii,
        > Archbishop of Korsun
        > His Grace the Right Reverend Gabriel,
        > Bishop of Komana,
        > Locum Tenens of the Archdiocese
        > of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe
        > His Grace the Right Reverend Amvrosii,
        > Bishop of Geneva and Western Europe
        > (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad)
        > and all Orthodox parishes of Russian tradition in Western Europe
        >
        > Most Reverend Bishops,
        > dear Fathers, Brothers and Sisters!
        > During these forty days of Holy Lent we think constantly about the
        > future of the heritage of the Russian Church which follows the
        > traditions of Russian Orthodoxy in the countries of the West.
        > By the grace of God, through the intercession of the Queen of
        Heaven
        > and the prayers of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, Church
        > life in our country is being successfully reborn in all its
        fullness.
        > Of course one must not yield to the temptation of a misplaced
        > triumphalism: on the human side there are still very many
        > shortcomings in the good ordering of our Holy Church. The Lord
        > expects from us a greater depth of repentance, a greater readiness
        > for sacrifice, a greater zeal in our work for the salvation and
        > enlightenment of the millions of people, who though they have been
        > baptised were not brought up in the Orthodox faith as children.
        > However, the temptations and weaknesses to be observed in the
        Church
        > community in our country are mainly due to "growing pains". A
        > spring-like awakening after a long and cruel winter of enforced god-
        > lessness can be neither instantaneous nor painless.
        > The picture changes when we look at the Church life of our
        > compatriots in the diaspora. The first question which inevitably
        > arises is: how can one explain the continuing separation of the
        > sundered parts of the Russian Church? Clearly it was brought into
        > being by the historical tragedy of the Russian people, the
        breakdown
        > of society as a result of the catastrophe that was the Revolution.
        > Both Metropolitan Anthony [Khrapovitsky – Ed.] and Metropolitan
        > Evlogii made it clear that their move away from full unity with the
        > Mother Church in our country was motivated only by political rather
        > than by any other reasons. These outstanding bishop-pastors, each
        in
        > his own way, deeply loved the Russia they were never to see again,
        > and each believed that Church unity would be restored as soon as
        the
        > yoke of godlessness oppressing their country was broken. Their
        > fellow bishops, who experienced the full ferocity of the
        persecution
        > of the Church in the USSR of that time, believed this too. His
        > Holiness Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, also believed this
        > when, in 1931, he voiced his opinion that the temporary
        subordination
        > of the Russian Exarchate in Western Europe to the throne of
        > Constantinople would continue "until, God willing, unity and the
        > unbroken image of the Holy sister Russian Church are restored." His
        > Holiness Patriarch Athenagoras confirmed this when, in 1965, he
        gave
        > his blessing to the Exarchate of Russian Parishes in Western Europe
        > for their return to the bosom of the Russian Orthodox Church.
        > We can hardly doubt that the time has come for a restoration of
        > unity. We have already written on this matter in brotherly
        epistles,
        > in September of last year to His Holiness Bartholomew, Patriarch of
        > Constantinople, and in the preceding year to the members of the
        > Episcopal Council of the Russian Church Abroad. We consider that
        the
        > time has now come for us to address this epistle directly to our
        > compatriots in the countries of Western Europe and to their
        spiritual
        > pastors. Why is it that now, when the years of sore trials have
        > passed, when the Mother Church can freely fulfil its calling and
        > Russia aspires to restore continuity with its historical past,
        Church
        > divisions still continue, though the reasons for them have long
        > disappeared? Why do we not fulfil the hopes of our predecessors and
        > spiritual fathers?
        > Apart from those reasons that have their roots in human sinfulness,
        > there are other, more benign reasons for this. The grandchildren
        and
        > great grandchildren of the `first generation' émigrés feel that
        they
        > have in every sense put down roots in the countries where they now
        > live and where they play an active part in social and cultural
        life.
        > While the heritage of their fathers is precious to them, many of
        > these representatives of the Russian spiritual tradition who live
        in
        > Western Europe wish to preserve the forms of Church life which have
        > gradually developed over many years conditions quite unlike those
        in
        > which the Church found itself in Russia, though these forms are
        > rooted in the same canonical tradition, as set out in the
        regulations
        > established by the Ecumenical and Local Councils and by the Fathers
        > of the Church, traditions made manifest in the acts and decisions
        of
        > the All-Russian Local Council (Sobor) of 1917-1918.
        > In addition to this, parishes founded by Russians and following
        > Russian traditions have over the years acquired a multinational
        > character and in liturgical practice make widespread use of local
        > languages, which since the time of Saints Cyril and Methodius,
        Equal
        > to the Apostles, has invariably been a characteristic of Orthodox
        > pastoral and missionary work.
        > Therefore, so as to have a certain guarantee in the preservation of
        > an established, familiar order, some of our compatriots living in
        > Western countries - and some of the local Orthodox who form part of
        > communities living according to the Russian tradition - wish to
        > structure their Church life according to their own Statutes, which
        > guarantee internal self-government and the election of their own
        > ruling bishop, on condition that the bishop so elected is then
        > confirmed by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy
        > Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.
        > Such wishes have been expressed in particular by the Diocesan
        > Assembly of the Diocese of Sourozh and have found expression in
        their
        > draft Statutes. They also represent a very significant element in
        > the conclusions arrived at by the "Commission on the Future of the
        > Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe"
        > established two years ago by the late Archbishop Serge of Evkarpia.
        > Such an arrangement is also envisaged in the current Statutes of
        the
        > Archdiocese.
        > Taking into consideration the combined weight of these wishes, I
        > consider that they could be realised through the creation in
        Western
        > Europe of a single Metropolia, consisting of several diocese and
        > embracing all the Orthodox parishes, monasteries and communities of
        > Russian origin and Russian spiritual tradition who would wish to be
        a
        > part of such a Metropolia. In addition to this it is envisaged that
        > such a Metropolia would be granted the right of self-government,
        > including the election of its ruling bishop by a Council of the
        > Metropolia consisting of bishops, presbyters and laity on the basis
        > of Statutes to be worked out with the participation of all groups
        in
        > the Orthodox Russian diaspora in the countries of Western Europe.
        > Until the first election of a Ruling Bishop (Metropolitan) takes
        > place we consider it right to entrust the care of the newly
        > constituted Metropolia to His Grace Anthony, Metropolitan of
        Sourozh,
        > despite his previously expressed wish to retire. The immense
        pastoral
        > experience and recognised spiritual authority of this universally
        > respected Bishop will act as a guarantee of success for this new
        way
        > of organising the life of the Russian Orthodox Church in Western
        > Europe.
        > In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
        > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
        > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
        > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
        > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
        > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual
        powers,
        > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
        > Metropolitan Anthony. At the next stage the Most Reverend
        Archbishop
        > Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad),
        > the Most Reverend Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend
        > Archbishop Feofan of Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend
        > Archbishop Paul of Vienna and Budapest should obviously also be
        > invited to take part in the process, so that the restoration of
        > Church unity in the Russian diaspora can be extended to the
        countries
        > of Central Europe as well.
        > We hope that an autonomous Metropolia, uniting all the faithful of
        > the Russian Orthodox tradition in the countries of Western Europe,
        > will serve, at a time pleasing to God, as the foundation for the
        > future canonical establishment of a multinational Local Orthodox
        > Church of Western Europe, to be built in a spirit of conciliarity
        by
        > all the Orthodox faithful living in those countries.
        > In a spirit of love I call upon you all, dear Bishops, Fathers,
        > Brothers and Sisters, to labour in the great work of healing the
        > painful divisions of the Russian diaspora. May the God of love and
        > peace bless your efforts.
        >
        > (signed) + ALEXIS
        > PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father Daniel, bless. The autonomy that Patriarch Aleksy II is suggesting here has already been suggested by Vl Mark before. Vl Mark probably does not
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 7 7:49 AM
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          Dear Father Daniel, bless.

          The autonomy that "Patriarch" Aleksy II is suggesting here has
          already been suggested by Vl Mark before. Vl Mark probably does not
          consider that the invitation is that negative and would probably not
          equate this to an invitation to become a Mason. Vl Amvrosii, I
          believe, has always agreed with Vl Mark in this matter. The
          invitation does not mention ecumenism or sergianism, but neither Vl
          Mark nor Vl Amvrosii seemed to believe that these are obstacles.

          I think the question is not about judging people, be it our ROCOR
          hierarchs or the MP hierarchs. The question is to know whether ROCOR
          follows the right course. As we all know, there have been
          disagreements on this matter. Observing contradictions and detecting
          them has nothing to do with "the desire on the part of some to
          condemn and judge their hierarchs". Again, we are not judging people.
          We are discussing proposals. Lay people too may do this. The question
          is:

          1. Is that autonomy acceptable in the present conditions? (Union
          before the MP has renounced sergianism and ecumenism.)
          2. How will the 2 ROCOR hierarchs reply? (The invitation seems to
          correspond to wishes that they already expressed before.)

          I would like to add that there is no "super orthodox", in my opinion.
          There are only orthodox and non - orthodox. An orthodox should be
          fundamentally orthodox, because nothing is wrong in orthodoxy. You
          cannot become better by becoming a little bit less orthodox. There is
          no such thing as being "too much orthodox".

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff

          In his June 5, 2002 interview to "Nezavisimaya gazeta", Vl Mark
          says:
          - "In the remote prospect there could be a form of coexistence, and a
          further dialogue in the form which was described already by Patriarch
          Aleksy II.
          - In one of the interviews he gave, he recognised natural, that the
          ROCOR part of the Russian Church has a life, features which were
          developed for 80 years, and nobody should bury them into oblivion.
          - For example, among our parishioners there are a a lot of non-
          Russians. We thus in many respects differ from the Russian parishes.
          - Any model of a mutual recognition which gradually would pass in the
          form of an autonomy is therefore necessary".

          http://religion.ng.ru/people/2002-06-05/1_looking.html




          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
          <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Evlogite!
          > Indeed ~ if I am invited to become a Mason, have I erred? If I am
          > asked to a BBQ next week, have I broken the Fast?
          > The desire of the 'super-Orthodox' to run to condemnation does no
          > credit to their cause. "Help me to see my own faults and not to
          judge
          > my brother" we pray most days during the Great Lent, but the desire
          > on the part of some to condemn and judge their hierarchs sometimes
          > beggars belief.
          > Fr Daniel
        • Joachim Wertz
          I have some problems with this letter. The language just doesn t sound official or ecclesiastical enough. It is unclear, at least to me, whether Bishop Simon
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 7 8:19 AM
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            I have some problems with this letter. The language just doesn't sound
            official or ecclesiastical enough. It is unclear, at least to me, whether
            Bishop Simon is already Bishop of Brussels or "will be" elected. Is it a
            foregone conclusion? Also, when all these MP vicar Bishops are mentioned,
            why is not Bishop Agapit mentioned along side of Archbishop Mark? What ever
            became of the MP Bishop Hilarion of Brussels? Now as I understand it, there
            might be some legal considerations involved that necessitate treating Bishop
            Amvrosii and Archbishop Mark on different levels. For example, I think that
            any ecclesiastical institution based in Germany cannot legally exercise
            jurisdiction in Austria. I have heard or read this, although the situation
            of the Serbian Church in Germany and western Europe would seem to contradict
            this. Those who know better, please correct me if I am wrong. So any Russian
            Orthodox Metropolia for Western Europe might have to be administratively
            distinct from one for Germany.

            Joachim Wertz

            From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
            Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:15:11 -0000
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
            Anthony


            This is indeed interesting and it will be interesting to see the
            reactions to this letter, particularly from the Synod.

            My husband pointed out its date: April Fool's Day (Ne komu ne veri).

            Still, if this letter IS 'for real,' it is interesting that Abp. Mark
            (who is healthy and active; as opposed to Vl. Amvrossy, who is unwell
            and wishes to retire) was not 'invited' to participate in the
            organization of this proposed new Metropolitinate now, even though
            his (ROCOR)diocese includes Great Britain (Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
            is in Great Britain).

            Also, I have heard from my relatives in England that Metropolitan
            Anthony's health is very poor.

            I certainly hope that everyone will restrain themselves from jumping
            to conclusions and rushing to condemn our ROCOR hierarchs; remember,
            THEY did not write this letter (in fact, I wonder who did?).


            Wishing all a joyous Feast of the Annunciation,
            Elizabeth




            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
            <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
            > Dear List,
            >
            > Below is a very interesting document dated April 1, 2003, and
            > particularly the paragraph below, were Vl Amvrosii and vl Mark are
            > invited to collaborate with metropolitan Anthony.
            >
            > "…In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
            > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
            > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
            > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
            > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
            > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual
            powers,
            > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
            > Metropolitan Anthony.
            >
            > At the next stage the Most Reverend Archbishop Mark of Berlin,
            > Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad), the Most
            Reverend
            > Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend Archbishop Feofan of
            > Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend Archbishop Paul of Vienna
            > and Budapest should obviously also be invited to take part in the
            > process, so that the restoration of Church unity in the Russian
            > diaspora can be extended to the countries of Central Europe as
            well…"
            >
            >
            > in God
            >
            > Vladimir Kozyreff
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.sourozh.org/news/patriarch010403_en.htm
            >
            >
            > The following letter has been received by Metropolitan Anthony and
            he
            > has asked that it be placed on our diocesan website and given
            general
            > distribution. The proposals made in it are quite clearly of great
            > importance for the Diocese of Sourozh. Indeed, if it proves
            possible
            > to implement them, they will significantly affect the development
            of
            > Orthodoxy in Western and Central Europe.
            >
            > + Basil
            >
            > Bishop of Sergievo
            > Assistant Bishop
            > Diocese of Sourozh
            >
            >
            >
            > THE PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
            > ALEXIS
            > 1st April
            >
            2003
            > 119034 Moscow, Chistiy per. 5
            > Doc. No. 1378
            >
            > His Grace the Most Reverend Anthony,
            > Metropolitan of Sourozh
            > His Grace the Most Reverend Simon,
            > Archbishop of Brussels and Belgium
            > His Grace the Most Reverend Innokentii,
            > Archbishop of Korsun
            > His Grace the Right Reverend Gabriel,
            > Bishop of Komana,
            > Locum Tenens of the Archdiocese
            > of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe
            > His Grace the Right Reverend Amvrosii,
            > Bishop of Geneva and Western Europe
            > (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad)
            > and all Orthodox parishes of Russian tradition in Western Europe
            >
            > Most Reverend Bishops,
            > dear Fathers, Brothers and Sisters!
            > During these forty days of Holy Lent we think constantly about the
            > future of the heritage of the Russian Church which follows the
            > traditions of Russian Orthodoxy in the countries of the West.
            > By the grace of God, through the intercession of the Queen of
            Heaven
            > and the prayers of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, Church
            > life in our country is being successfully reborn in all its
            fullness.
            > Of course one must not yield to the temptation of a misplaced
            > triumphalism: on the human side there are still very many
            > shortcomings in the good ordering of our Holy Church. The Lord
            > expects from us a greater depth of repentance, a greater readiness
            > for sacrifice, a greater zeal in our work for the salvation and
            > enlightenment of the millions of people, who though they have been
            > baptised were not brought up in the Orthodox faith as children.
            > However, the temptations and weaknesses to be observed in the
            Church
            > community in our country are mainly due to "growing pains". A
            > spring-like awakening after a long and cruel winter of enforced god-
            > lessness can be neither instantaneous nor painless.
            > The picture changes when we look at the Church life of our
            > compatriots in the diaspora. The first question which inevitably
            > arises is: how can one explain the continuing separation of the
            > sundered parts of the Russian Church? Clearly it was brought into
            > being by the historical tragedy of the Russian people, the
            breakdown
            > of society as a result of the catastrophe that was the Revolution.
            > Both Metropolitan Anthony [Khrapovitsky – Ed.] and Metropolitan
            > Evlogii made it clear that their move away from full unity with the
            > Mother Church in our country was motivated only by political rather
            > than by any other reasons. These outstanding bishop-pastors, each
            in
            > his own way, deeply loved the Russia they were never to see again,
            > and each believed that Church unity would be restored as soon as
            the
            > yoke of godlessness oppressing their country was broken. Their
            > fellow bishops, who experienced the full ferocity of the
            persecution
            > of the Church in the USSR of that time, believed this too. His
            > Holiness Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, also believed this
            > when, in 1931, he voiced his opinion that the temporary
            subordination
            > of the Russian Exarchate in Western Europe to the throne of
            > Constantinople would continue "until, God willing, unity and the
            > unbroken image of the Holy sister Russian Church are restored." His
            > Holiness Patriarch Athenagoras confirmed this when, in 1965, he
            gave
            > his blessing to the Exarchate of Russian Parishes in Western Europe
            > for their return to the bosom of the Russian Orthodox Church.
            > We can hardly doubt that the time has come for a restoration of
            > unity. We have already written on this matter in brotherly
            epistles,
            > in September of last year to His Holiness Bartholomew, Patriarch of
            > Constantinople, and in the preceding year to the members of the
            > Episcopal Council of the Russian Church Abroad. We consider that
            the
            > time has now come for us to address this epistle directly to our
            > compatriots in the countries of Western Europe and to their
            spiritual
            > pastors. Why is it that now, when the years of sore trials have
            > passed, when the Mother Church can freely fulfil its calling and
            > Russia aspires to restore continuity with its historical past,
            Church
            > divisions still continue, though the reasons for them have long
            > disappeared? Why do we not fulfil the hopes of our predecessors and
            > spiritual fathers?
            > Apart from those reasons that have their roots in human sinfulness,
            > there are other, more benign reasons for this. The grandchildren
            and
            > great grandchildren of the `first generation' émigrés feel that
            they
            > have in every sense put down roots in the countries where they now
            > live and where they play an active part in social and cultural
            life.
            > While the heritage of their fathers is precious to them, many of
            > these representatives of the Russian spiritual tradition who live
            in
            > Western Europe wish to preserve the forms of Church life which have
            > gradually developed over many years conditions quite unlike those
            in
            > which the Church found itself in Russia, though these forms are
            > rooted in the same canonical tradition, as set out in the
            regulations
            > established by the Ecumenical and Local Councils and by the Fathers
            > of the Church, traditions made manifest in the acts and decisions
            of
            > the All-Russian Local Council (Sobor) of 1917-1918.
            > In addition to this, parishes founded by Russians and following
            > Russian traditions have over the years acquired a multinational
            > character and in liturgical practice make widespread use of local
            > languages, which since the time of Saints Cyril and Methodius,
            Equal
            > to the Apostles, has invariably been a characteristic of Orthodox
            > pastoral and missionary work.
            > Therefore, so as to have a certain guarantee in the preservation of
            > an established, familiar order, some of our compatriots living in
            > Western countries - and some of the local Orthodox who form part of
            > communities living according to the Russian tradition - wish to
            > structure their Church life according to their own Statutes, which
            > guarantee internal self-government and the election of their own
            > ruling bishop, on condition that the bishop so elected is then
            > confirmed by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy
            > Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.
            > Such wishes have been expressed in particular by the Diocesan
            > Assembly of the Diocese of Sourozh and have found expression in
            their
            > draft Statutes. They also represent a very significant element in
            > the conclusions arrived at by the "Commission on the Future of the
            > Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe"
            > established two years ago by the late Archbishop Serge of Evkarpia.
            > Such an arrangement is also envisaged in the current Statutes of
            the
            > Archdiocese.
            > Taking into consideration the combined weight of these wishes, I
            > consider that they could be realised through the creation in
            Western
            > Europe of a single Metropolia, consisting of several diocese and
            > embracing all the Orthodox parishes, monasteries and communities of
            > Russian origin and Russian spiritual tradition who would wish to be
            a
            > part of such a Metropolia. In addition to this it is envisaged that
            > such a Metropolia would be granted the right of self-government,
            > including the election of its ruling bishop by a Council of the
            > Metropolia consisting of bishops, presbyters and laity on the basis
            > of Statutes to be worked out with the participation of all groups
            in
            > the Orthodox Russian diaspora in the countries of Western Europe.
            > Until the first election of a Ruling Bishop (Metropolitan) takes
            > place we consider it right to entrust the care of the newly
            > constituted Metropolia to His Grace Anthony, Metropolitan of
            Sourozh,
            > despite his previously expressed wish to retire. The immense
            pastoral
            > experience and recognised spiritual authority of this universally
            > respected Bishop will act as a guarantee of success for this new
            way
            > of organising the life of the Russian Orthodox Church in Western
            > Europe.
            > In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
            > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
            > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
            > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
            > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
            > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual
            powers,
            > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
            > Metropolitan Anthony. At the next stage the Most Reverend
            Archbishop
            > Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad),
            > the Most Reverend Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend
            > Archbishop Feofan of Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend
            > Archbishop Paul of Vienna and Budapest should obviously also be
            > invited to take part in the process, so that the restoration of
            > Church unity in the Russian diaspora can be extended to the
            countries
            > of Central Europe as well.
            > We hope that an autonomous Metropolia, uniting all the faithful of
            > the Russian Orthodox tradition in the countries of Western Europe,
            > will serve, at a time pleasing to God, as the foundation for the
            > future canonical establishment of a multinational Local Orthodox
            > Church of Western Europe, to be built in a spirit of conciliarity
            by
            > all the Orthodox faithful living in those countries.
            > In a spirit of love I call upon you all, dear Bishops, Fathers,
            > Brothers and Sisters, to labour in the great work of healing the
            > painful divisions of the Russian diaspora. May the God of love and
            > peace bless your efforts.
            >
            > (signed) + ALEXIS
            > PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • orthodoxchurch_sg
            Dear in Christ Vladimir ~ You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 7 8:22 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
              You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
              you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official statements?
              You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy does
              not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
              respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
              the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have read,
              which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
              forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we were
              not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
              and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
              Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
              does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
              consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not unthinking
              automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in Orthodoxy
              among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
              including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine and
              Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
              Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like on
              the InterNet?
              God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
            • Michael Nikitin
              If dVG did observe the facts he would not be focusing on a signature, but on the Patriarch s proposed union of Churches in Europe. Which was not *merely*
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 7 9:03 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                If dVG did observe the facts he would not be focusing on a signature, but on
                the Patriarch's proposed union of Churches in Europe. Which was not *merely*
                addressed, but a calculated move.

                We know that Bishop Ambrosy permits his priests in France to serve with MP
                and we know Bishops Mark's inclination for union with MP.

                The French,who would oppose such union, are out of the way. The road is
                open in Europe (the French left because of Bishop Ambrosy's leaning for
                union with MP). In America, Canada and Australia more caution is taken,
                because there are still a lot of parishes who are opposing union with MP.

                The MP is in the WCC and prays with heretics.

                In Russia, parishes of ROCOR(V) wanted to register, but were thwarted by
                ROCOR(L) who wrote to the Gov't that they were not a Church. See
                http://www.listok.com in Russian.

                Someone doesn't want the faithful of ROCOR(L) in Russia to go to ROCOR(V)
                when union with MP occurs.

                With the MP nothing is *merely*.

                It will be interesting to see what type of economia is used by the MP when
                ROCOR(L), seen as a schismatic Church by MP, will be embraced.

                Michael N.




                From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>
                Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
                Anthony
                Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 00:45:24 -0000

                What signature? It appears that bishop Amvrosy was merely
                addressed... perhaps another example of how the "super-orthodox"
                observe everything but the facts...
                dVG


                _________________________________________________________________
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              • vkozyreff
                Dear Father Daniel, bless. I thank you for your good words. You write: Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he does not carry the
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 8 3:48 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Father Daniel, bless.

                  I thank you for your good words.

                  You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
                  discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
                  out upon him at his consecration?

                  1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
                  MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
                  to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
                  KGB anti God activity.

                  2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
                  schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
                  of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

                  3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
                  have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
                  the Church that disagree with one another.

                  4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
                  have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
                  were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
                  know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
                  longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
                  is to be all on the same ship.

                  5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
                  that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
                  possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
                  communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
                  none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
                  ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
                  flock to commune with the MP.

                  6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                  question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                  ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                  concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                  sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                  In God and asking your prayers,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff



                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                  <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                  > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                  > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                  > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                  statements?
                  > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
                  does
                  > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                  > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                  > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
                  read,
                  > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                  > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
                  were
                  > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                  > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                  > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
                  > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
                  > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
                  unthinking
                  > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
                  Orthodoxy
                  > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                  > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
                  and
                  > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
                  > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
                  on
                  > the InterNet?
                  > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
                • Victor Artzimovitch
                  ... From: vkozyreff To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 8 10:17 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                    To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
                    Anthony

                    Please allow some comments:

                    Dear Father Daniel, bless.

                    I thank you for your good words.

                    You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
                    discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
                    out upon him at his consecration?

                    1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
                    MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
                    to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
                    KGB anti God activity.

                    Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
                    Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very different
                    reasons.

                    2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
                    schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
                    of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

                    ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....

                    3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
                    have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
                    the Church that disagree with one another.

                    ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
                    preasts...?

                    4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
                    have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
                    were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
                    know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
                    longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
                    is to be all on the same ship.

                    ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
                    Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
                    probably MP.
                    Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help the
                    captains to find back the right track...
                    Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

                    5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
                    that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
                    possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
                    communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
                    none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
                    ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
                    flock to commune with the MP.

                    Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
                    How can we not accept "just" a discussion?

                    6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                    question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                    ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                    concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                    sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                    Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a statement?

                    V.Artzimovitch

                    In God and asking your prayers,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff



                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                    <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                    > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                    > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                    > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                    statements?
                    > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
                    does
                    > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                    > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                    > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
                    read,
                    > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                    > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
                    were
                    > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                    > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                    > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
                    > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
                    > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
                    unthinking
                    > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
                    Orthodoxy
                    > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                    > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
                    and
                    > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
                    > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
                    on
                    > the InterNet?
                    > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel



                    Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear V, Regarding the possibility of ROCOR to make the MP change course after the reunion, even Father Alexander Lebedeff does not believe in it. We all know
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 8 12:26 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear V,

                      Regarding the possibility of ROCOR to make the MP change course
                      after the reunion, even Father Alexander Lebedeff does not believe in
                      it.

                      We all know where Vl Mark did study, but we also know that his
                      application to the Trinity St Sergius Lavra was turned down.

                      You write: "How can we not accept "just" a discussion (with the MP)?
                      There are many recommendations to the contrary in the Holy Fathers.

                      This letter is probably a hoax, but it has been an interesting
                      opportunity to exchange ideas.

                      The good thing is that this time we did not fight. Glory to God.

                      In Christ,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff

                      PS I have a special friendship to your family (your father and your
                      sister), with regards to the marvellous memories that my children
                      have kept of their Vitiazi years. This friendship automatically
                      spills over to you.


                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Artzimovitch"
                      <vartzimovitch@v...> wrote:
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                      > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
                      > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
                      Metropolitan
                      > Anthony
                      >
                      > Please allow some comments:
                      >
                      > Dear Father Daniel, bless.
                      >
                      > I thank you for your good words.
                      >
                      > You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
                      > discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
                      > out upon him at his consecration?
                      >
                      > 1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
                      > MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
                      > to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
                      > KGB anti God activity.
                      >
                      > Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
                      > Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very
                      different
                      > reasons.
                      >
                      > 2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen
                      into
                      > schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
                      > of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?
                      >
                      > ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....
                      >
                      > 3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
                      > have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
                      > the Church that disagree with one another.
                      >
                      > ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
                      > preasts...?
                      >
                      > 4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
                      > have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
                      > were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use.
                      We
                      > know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
                      > longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important
                      thing
                      > is to be all on the same ship.
                      >
                      > ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient
                      Rome!!!!
                      > Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of
                      reforms. So is
                      > probably MP.
                      > Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to
                      help the
                      > captains to find back the right track...
                      > Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....
                      >
                      > 5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
                      > that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
                      > possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
                      > communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
                      > none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
                      > ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
                      > flock to commune with the MP.
                      >
                      > Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
                      > How can we not accept "just" a discussion?
                      >
                      > 6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                      > question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                      > ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                      > concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                      > sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.
                      >
                      > Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a
                      statement?
                      >
                      > V.Artzimovitch
                      >
                      > In God and asking your prayers,
                      >
                      > Vladimir Kozyreff
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                      > <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                      > > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                      > > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                      > > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                      > statements?
                      > > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
                      > does
                      > > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                      > > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                      > > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
                      > read,
                      > > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                      > > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
                      > were
                      > > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                      > > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                      > > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that
                      he
                      > > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at
                      his
                      > > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
                      > unthinking
                      > > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
                      > Orthodoxy
                      > > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                      > > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
                      > and
                      > > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great
                      deal.
                      > > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
                      > on
                      > > the InterNet?
                      > > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • byakimov@csc.com.au
                      Dear Victor Our friend Vladimir meant that our current ROCA Bishops & priests who perefer any dialogue with the MP be undertaken when the ... MP has renounced
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 8 3:31 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Victor

                        Our friend Vladimir meant that our current ROCA Bishops & priests who
                        perefer
                        any dialogue with the MP be undertaken when the "... MP has renounced
                        sergianism and
                        ecumenism...." etc. Indeed & I am glad that it is very sizeable!

                        protodeacon Basil from Canberra




                        "Victor Artzimovitch" <vartzimovitch@...> on 09/04/2003 03:17:03 AM

                        Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        cc:
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
                        Metropolitan Anthony



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
                        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
                        Anthony

                        Please allow some comments:

                        Dear Father Daniel, bless.

                        I thank you for your good words.

                        You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
                        discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
                        out upon him at his consecration?

                        1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
                        MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
                        to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
                        KGB anti God activity.

                        Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
                        Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very different
                        reasons.

                        2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
                        schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
                        of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

                        ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....

                        3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
                        have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
                        the Church that disagree with one another.

                        ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
                        preasts...?

                        4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
                        have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
                        were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
                        know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
                        longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
                        is to be all on the same ship.

                        ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
                        Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
                        probably MP.
                        Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help
                        the
                        captains to find back the right track...
                        Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

                        5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
                        that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
                        possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
                        communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
                        none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
                        ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
                        flock to commune with the MP.

                        Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
                        How can we not accept "just" a discussion?

                        6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                        question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                        ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                        concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                        sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                        Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a
                        statement?

                        V.Artzimovitch

                        In God and asking your prayers,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff



                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                        <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                        > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                        > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                        > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                        statements?
                        > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
                        does
                        > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                        > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                        > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
                        read,
                        > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                        > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
                        were
                        > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                        > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                        > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
                        > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
                        > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
                        unthinking
                        > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
                        Orthodoxy
                        > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                        > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
                        and
                        > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
                        > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
                        on
                        > the InterNet?
                        > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel



                        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • cantor71
                        ... Well, it is clearly not a hoax, as it has just been posted on the MP website (so far in Russian only). George
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 9 7:31 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                          <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                          >
                          > This letter is probably a hoax, but it has been an interesting
                          > opportunity to exchange ideas.
                          >

                          Well, it is clearly not a hoax, as it has just been posted on the MP
                          website (so far in Russian only).

                          George

                          http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/nr304091.htm
                        • Michael Nikitin
                          From: Victor Artzimovitch Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com To: Subject: Re:
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 9 9:51 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            From: "Victor Artzimovitch" <vartzimovitch@...>
                            Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
                            Metropolitan Anthony
                            Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:17:03 +0200


                            ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
                            Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
                            probably MP.
                            Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help the
                            captains to find back the right track...
                            Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

                            We should change the Church to the times?

                            The French did want to stay on course , but the Captains took the new
                            course . They are flying the ship and didn't want anyone interfering. I find
                            it is hard to help the Captains find back the right track. They won't
                            listen. That's why so many left and are leaving.
                            Why crash with them when one can take another ship and fly the same safe
                            route as our Holy Fathers? Knowing at least that we are following
                            the course the Captains took that never crashed.



                            6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                            question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                            ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                            concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                            sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                            Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a statement?

                            V.Artzimovitch

                            ROCOR in it's letter to Patriarch Pavel begged him to pave the way for
                            dialogue and eventual union with MP. The MP wrote that ROCOR was in schism
                            from the Russian Church. Who's uniting to whom? How will ROCOR be united
                            with MP since they are in schism?

                            If we are not to waite for MP to show their good will to the faith and
                            renounce ecumenism that we Anathemetized, what should we expect from her?
                            Some concessions here and there and say they repented?
                            The MP have to show a desire to renounce these heresies, otherwise what's
                            stopping us from having dialogue with the Muslims, Jews, Latins,
                            Protestants, etc....Not a good idea.

                            Michael N.



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                          • frpeterjackson
                            ... The phrase rational sheep is often misunderstood, mainly because of the clumsy tranlation. Rational as used here is an overly-literal rendering of the
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 14 6:52 AM
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                              Just an aside: It was said:

                              >Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not unthinking
                              > automotons.

                              The phrase "rational sheep" is often misunderstood, mainly because of
                              the clumsy tranlation. "Rational" as used here is an overly-literal
                              rendering of the Greek "logikos", which did not mean "logical" at the
                              time. (I don't think it took on this sense till the Middle Ages.) It
                              come from "logos", meaning the inner, non-literal sense of something,
                              rather the the superficial meaning. IOW, "logikos/rational" refers to
                              what we what call the metaphorical sense. "Metaphorical", then, is
                              the best way to render this (though I doubt anyone will ever bother
                              to do so). As Christ's sheep, we are to be reasonable, certainly, but
                              the phrase in question has nothing to do w/this. Rather, it simply
                              means that we are His "metaphorical sheep", rather than literal cud-
                              chewing, bleating creatures.

                              Another case which comes to mind is Romans 12:1, which speaks of us
                              offering ourselves as living sacrifices because this is
                              our "reasonable service". Again, the word "reasonable" is "logikos"
                              and should be translated as "metaphorical". More than once I have
                              heard (or read) people respond to this passage saying, "Yes, offering
                              our bodies as living sacrifices is only reasonable, after all."
                              Actually, it's not very reasonable, and if anyone tried to crawl up
                              onto the altar table, it would be a problem. "Reasonable" has nothing
                              to do with what St. Paul is saying. "Service" here means liturgical
                              worship, in the sense of the OT priests sacrificing animals in the
                              Temple. St. Paul is merely saying that instead of sacrificing
                              animals, we Christians are to offer ourselves; this is how we
                              metaphorically serve God around a metaphorical altar. It is true
                              service, to be sure, but not in the literal sense of a blood
                              sacrifice.

                              Fr. Peter Jackson
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