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Re: [orthodox-synod] collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan Anthony

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  • Michael Nikitin
    The signature of Bishop Ambrosy tells it all. The Synod didn t want anyone interfering with their union with MP and therefore got rid of those who were in
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 6, 2003
      The signature of Bishop Ambrosy tells it all. The Synod didn't want anyone
      interfering with their union with MP and therefore got rid of those who were
      in their way. To some this was obvious in 1986 when many parishes left. Now
      everyone knows why the French were driven out also.

      The Anathema Against Ecumenism which ROCOR signed in 1983 and later
      confirmed doesn't matter?

      The MP is in the WCC and prays with heretics.

      We have to find a hard hat or seek somewhere it doesn't rain Anathema's on
      our heads.

      Michael N.

      From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
      Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
      Anthony
      Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 16:26:00 -0000

      Dear List,

      Below is a very interesting document dated April 1, 2003, and
      particularly the paragraph below, were Vl Amvrosii and vl Mark are
      invited to collaborate with metropolitan Anthony.

      "�In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
      Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
      Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
      the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
      well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
      Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual powers,
      are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
      Metropolitan Anthony.

      At the next stage the Most Reverend Archbishop Mark of Berlin,
      Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad), the Most Reverend
      Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend Archbishop Feofan of
      Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend Archbishop Paul of Vienna
      and Budapest should obviously also be invited to take part in the
      process, so that the restoration of Church unity in the Russian
      diaspora can be extended to the countries of Central Europe as well�"


      in God

      Vladimir Kozyreff




      http://www.sourozh.org/news/patriarch010403_en.htm


      The following letter has been received by Metropolitan Anthony and he
      has asked that it be placed on our diocesan website and given general
      distribution. The proposals made in it are quite clearly of great
      importance for the Diocese of Sourozh. Indeed, if it proves possible
      to implement them, they will significantly affect the development of
      Orthodoxy in Western and Central Europe.

      + Basil

      Bishop of Sergievo
      Assistant Bishop
      Diocese of Sourozh



      THE PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
      ALEXIS
      1st April
      2003
      119034 Moscow, Chistiy per. 5
      Doc. No. 1378

      His Grace the Most Reverend Anthony,
      Metropolitan of Sourozh
      His Grace the Most Reverend Simon,
      Archbishop of Brussels and Belgium
      His Grace the Most Reverend Innokentii,
      Archbishop of Korsun
      His Grace the Right Reverend Gabriel,
      Bishop of Komana,
      Locum Tenens of the Archdiocese
      of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe
      His Grace the Right Reverend Amvrosii,
      Bishop of Geneva and Western Europe
      (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad)
      and all Orthodox parishes of Russian tradition in Western Europe

      Most Reverend Bishops,
      dear Fathers, Brothers and Sisters!
      During these forty days of Holy Lent we think constantly about the
      future of the heritage of the Russian Church which follows the
      traditions of Russian Orthodoxy in the countries of the West.
      By the grace of God, through the intercession of the Queen of Heaven
      and the prayers of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, Church
      life in our country is being successfully reborn in all its fullness.
      Of course one must not yield to the temptation of a misplaced
      triumphalism: on the human side there are still very many
      shortcomings in the good ordering of our Holy Church. The Lord
      expects from us a greater depth of repentance, a greater readiness
      for sacrifice, a greater zeal in our work for the salvation and
      enlightenment of the millions of people, who though they have been
      baptised were not brought up in the Orthodox faith as children.
      However, the temptations and weaknesses to be observed in the Church
      community in our country are mainly due to "growing pains". A
      spring-like awakening after a long and cruel winter of enforced god-
      lessness can be neither instantaneous nor painless.
      The picture changes when we look at the Church life of our
      compatriots in the diaspora. The first question which inevitably
      arises is: how can one explain the continuing separation of the
      sundered parts of the Russian Church? Clearly it was brought into
      being by the historical tragedy of the Russian people, the breakdown
      of society as a result of the catastrophe that was the Revolution.
      Both Metropolitan Anthony [Khrapovitsky � Ed.] and Metropolitan
      Evlogii made it clear that their move away from full unity with the
      Mother Church in our country was motivated only by political rather
      than by any other reasons. These outstanding bishop-pastors, each in
      his own way, deeply loved the Russia they were never to see again,
      and each believed that Church unity would be restored as soon as the
      yoke of godlessness oppressing their country was broken. Their
      fellow bishops, who experienced the full ferocity of the persecution
      of the Church in the USSR of that time, believed this too. His
      Holiness Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, also believed this
      when, in 1931, he voiced his opinion that the temporary subordination
      of the Russian Exarchate in Western Europe to the throne of
      Constantinople would continue "until, God willing, unity and the
      unbroken image of the Holy sister Russian Church are restored." His
      Holiness Patriarch Athenagoras confirmed this when, in 1965, he gave
      his blessing to the Exarchate of Russian Parishes in Western Europe
      for their return to the bosom of the Russian Orthodox Church.
      We can hardly doubt that the time has come for a restoration of
      unity. We have already written on this matter in brotherly epistles,
      in September of last year to His Holiness Bartholomew, Patriarch of
      Constantinople, and in the preceding year to the members of the
      Episcopal Council of the Russian Church Abroad. We consider that the
      time has now come for us to address this epistle directly to our
      compatriots in the countries of Western Europe and to their spiritual
      pastors. Why is it that now, when the years of sore trials have
      passed, when the Mother Church can freely fulfil its calling and
      Russia aspires to restore continuity with its historical past, Church
      divisions still continue, though the reasons for them have long
      disappeared? Why do we not fulfil the hopes of our predecessors and
      spiritual fathers?
      Apart from those reasons that have their roots in human sinfulness,
      there are other, more benign reasons for this. The grandchildren and
      great grandchildren of the `first generation' �migr�s feel that they
      have in every sense put down roots in the countries where they now
      live and where they play an active part in social and cultural life.
      While the heritage of their fathers is precious to them, many of
      these representatives of the Russian spiritual tradition who live in
      Western Europe wish to preserve the forms of Church life which have
      gradually developed over many years conditions quite unlike those in
      which the Church found itself in Russia, though these forms are
      rooted in the same canonical tradition, as set out in the regulations
      established by the Ecumenical and Local Councils and by the Fathers
      of the Church, traditions made manifest in the acts and decisions of
      the All-Russian Local Council (Sobor) of 1917-1918.
      In addition to this, parishes founded by Russians and following
      Russian traditions have over the years acquired a multinational
      character and in liturgical practice make widespread use of local
      languages, which since the time of Saints Cyril and Methodius, Equal
      to the Apostles, has invariably been a characteristic of Orthodox
      pastoral and missionary work.
      Therefore, so as to have a certain guarantee in the preservation of
      an established, familiar order, some of our compatriots living in
      Western countries - and some of the local Orthodox who form part of
      communities living according to the Russian tradition - wish to
      structure their Church life according to their own Statutes, which
      guarantee internal self-government and the election of their own
      ruling bishop, on condition that the bishop so elected is then
      confirmed by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy
      Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.
      Such wishes have been expressed in particular by the Diocesan
      Assembly of the Diocese of Sourozh and have found expression in their
      draft Statutes. They also represent a very significant element in
      the conclusions arrived at by the "Commission on the Future of the
      Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe"
      established two years ago by the late Archbishop Serge of Evkarpia.
      Such an arrangement is also envisaged in the current Statutes of the
      Archdiocese.
      Taking into consideration the combined weight of these wishes, I
      consider that they could be realised through the creation in Western
      Europe of a single Metropolia, consisting of several diocese and
      embracing all the Orthodox parishes, monasteries and communities of
      Russian origin and Russian spiritual tradition who would wish to be a
      part of such a Metropolia. In addition to this it is envisaged that
      such a Metropolia would be granted the right of self-government,
      including the election of its ruling bishop by a Council of the
      Metropolia consisting of bishops, presbyters and laity on the basis
      of Statutes to be worked out with the participation of all groups in
      the Orthodox Russian diaspora in the countries of Western Europe.
      Until the first election of a Ruling Bishop (Metropolitan) takes
      place we consider it right to entrust the care of the newly
      constituted Metropolia to His Grace Anthony, Metropolitan of Sourozh,
      despite his previously expressed wish to retire. The immense pastoral
      experience and recognised spiritual authority of this universally
      respected Bishop will act as a guarantee of success for this new way
      of organising the life of the Russian Orthodox Church in Western
      Europe.
      In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
      Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
      Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
      the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
      well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
      Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual powers,
      are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
      Metropolitan Anthony. At the next stage the Most Reverend Archbishop
      Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad),
      the Most Reverend Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend
      Archbishop Feofan of Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend
      Archbishop Paul of Vienna and Budapest should obviously also be
      invited to take part in the process, so that the restoration of
      Church unity in the Russian diaspora can be extended to the countries
      of Central Europe as well.
      We hope that an autonomous Metropolia, uniting all the faithful of
      the Russian Orthodox tradition in the countries of Western Europe,
      will serve, at a time pleasing to God, as the foundation for the
      future canonical establishment of a multinational Local Orthodox
      Church of Western Europe, to be built in a spirit of conciliarity by
      all the Orthodox faithful living in those countries.
      In a spirit of love I call upon you all, dear Bishops, Fathers,
      Brothers and Sisters, to labour in the great work of healing the
      painful divisions of the Russian diaspora. May the God of love and
      peace bless your efforts.

      (signed) + ALEXIS
      PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA





      _________________________________________________________________
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    • maestro_vg
      What signature? It appears that bishop Amvrosy was merely addressed... perhaps another example of how the super-orthodox observe everything but the facts...
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 6, 2003
        What signature? It appears that bishop Amvrosy was merely
        addressed... perhaps another example of how the "super-orthodox"
        observe everything but the facts...
        dVG


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Nikitin"
        <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
        > The signature of Bishop Ambrosy tells it all. The Synod didn't want
        anyone
        > interfering with their union with MP and therefore got rid of those
        who were
        > in their way. To some this was obvious in 1986 when many parishes
        left. Now
        > everyone knows why the French were driven out also.
        >
        > The Anathema Against Ecumenism which ROCOR signed in 1983 and later
        > confirmed doesn't matter?
        >
        > The MP is in the WCC and prays with heretics.
        >
        > We have to find a hard hat or seek somewhere it doesn't rain
        Anathema's on
        > our heads.
        >
        > Michael N.
        >
        > From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
        > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] collaborators and assistants to
        Metropolitan
        > Anthony
        > Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 16:26:00 -0000
        >
        > Dear List,
        >
        > Below is a very interesting document dated April 1, 2003, and
        > particularly the paragraph below, were Vl Amvrosii and vl Mark are
        > invited to collaborate with metropolitan Anthony.
        >
        > "…In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
        > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
        > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
        > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
        > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
        > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual powers,
        > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
        > Metropolitan Anthony.
        >
        > At the next stage the Most Reverend Archbishop Mark of Berlin,
        > Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad), the Most Reverend
        > Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend Archbishop Feofan of
        > Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend Archbishop Paul of Vienna
        > and Budapest should obviously also be invited to take part in the
        > process, so that the restoration of Church unity in the Russian
        > diaspora can be extended to the countries of Central Europe as
        well…"
        >
        >
        > in God
        >
        > Vladimir Kozyreff
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > http://www.sourozh.org/news/patriarch010403_en.htm
        >
        >
        > The following letter has been received by Metropolitan Anthony and
        he
        > has asked that it be placed on our diocesan website and given
        general
        > distribution. The proposals made in it are quite clearly of great
        > importance for the Diocese of Sourozh. Indeed, if it proves possible
        > to implement them, they will significantly affect the development of
        > Orthodoxy in Western and Central Europe.
        >
        > + Basil
        >
        > Bishop of Sergievo
        > Assistant Bishop
        > Diocese of Sourozh
        >
        >
        >
        > THE PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
        > ALEXIS
        > 1st April
        > 2003
        > 119034 Moscow, Chistiy per.
        5
        > Doc. No. 1378
        >
        > His Grace the Most Reverend Anthony,
        > Metropolitan of Sourozh
        > His Grace the Most Reverend Simon,
        > Archbishop of Brussels and Belgium
        > His Grace the Most Reverend Innokentii,
        > Archbishop of Korsun
        > His Grace the Right Reverend Gabriel,
        > Bishop of Komana,
        > Locum Tenens of the Archdiocese
        > of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe
        > His Grace the Right Reverend Amvrosii,
        > Bishop of Geneva and Western Europe
        > (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad)
        > and all Orthodox parishes of Russian tradition in Western Europe
        >
        > Most Reverend Bishops,
        > dear Fathers, Brothers and Sisters!
        > During these forty days of Holy Lent we think constantly about the
        > future of the heritage of the Russian Church which follows the
        > traditions of Russian Orthodoxy in the countries of the West.
        > By the grace of God, through the intercession of the Queen of Heaven
        > and the prayers of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, Church
        > life in our country is being successfully reborn in all its
        fullness.
        > Of course one must not yield to the temptation of a misplaced
        > triumphalism: on the human side there are still very many
        > shortcomings in the good ordering of our Holy Church. The Lord
        > expects from us a greater depth of repentance, a greater readiness
        > for sacrifice, a greater zeal in our work for the salvation and
        > enlightenment of the millions of people, who though they have been
        > baptised were not brought up in the Orthodox faith as children.
        > However, the temptations and weaknesses to be observed in the Church
        > community in our country are mainly due to "growing pains". A
        > spring-like awakening after a long and cruel winter of enforced god-
        > lessness can be neither instantaneous nor painless.
        > The picture changes when we look at the Church life of our
        > compatriots in the diaspora. The first question which inevitably
        > arises is: how can one explain the continuing separation of the
        > sundered parts of the Russian Church? Clearly it was brought into
        > being by the historical tragedy of the Russian people, the breakdown
        > of society as a result of the catastrophe that was the Revolution.
        > Both Metropolitan Anthony [Khrapovitsky – Ed.] and Metropolitan
        > Evlogii made it clear that their move away from full unity with the
        > Mother Church in our country was motivated only by political rather
        > than by any other reasons. These outstanding bishop-pastors, each
        in
        > his own way, deeply loved the Russia they were never to see again,
        > and each believed that Church unity would be restored as soon as the
        > yoke of godlessness oppressing their country was broken. Their
        > fellow bishops, who experienced the full ferocity of the persecution
        > of the Church in the USSR of that time, believed this too. His
        > Holiness Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, also believed this
        > when, in 1931, he voiced his opinion that the temporary
        subordination
        > of the Russian Exarchate in Western Europe to the throne of
        > Constantinople would continue "until, God willing, unity and the
        > unbroken image of the Holy sister Russian Church are restored." His
        > Holiness Patriarch Athenagoras confirmed this when, in 1965, he gave
        > his blessing to the Exarchate of Russian Parishes in Western Europe
        > for their return to the bosom of the Russian Orthodox Church.
        > We can hardly doubt that the time has come for a restoration of
        > unity. We have already written on this matter in brotherly epistles,
        > in September of last year to His Holiness Bartholomew, Patriarch of
        > Constantinople, and in the preceding year to the members of the
        > Episcopal Council of the Russian Church Abroad. We consider that
        the
        > time has now come for us to address this epistle directly to our
        > compatriots in the countries of Western Europe and to their
        spiritual
        > pastors. Why is it that now, when the years of sore trials have
        > passed, when the Mother Church can freely fulfil its calling and
        > Russia aspires to restore continuity with its historical past,
        Church
        > divisions still continue, though the reasons for them have long
        > disappeared? Why do we not fulfil the hopes of our predecessors and
        > spiritual fathers?
        > Apart from those reasons that have their roots in human sinfulness,
        > there are other, more benign reasons for this. The grandchildren and
        > great grandchildren of the `first generation' émigrés feel that they
        > have in every sense put down roots in the countries where they now
        > live and where they play an active part in social and cultural life.
        > While the heritage of their fathers is precious to them, many of
        > these representatives of the Russian spiritual tradition who live in
        > Western Europe wish to preserve the forms of Church life which have
        > gradually developed over many years conditions quite unlike those in
        > which the Church found itself in Russia, though these forms are
        > rooted in the same canonical tradition, as set out in the
        regulations
        > established by the Ecumenical and Local Councils and by the Fathers
        > of the Church, traditions made manifest in the acts and decisions of
        > the All-Russian Local Council (Sobor) of 1917-1918.
        > In addition to this, parishes founded by Russians and following
        > Russian traditions have over the years acquired a multinational
        > character and in liturgical practice make widespread use of local
        > languages, which since the time of Saints Cyril and Methodius, Equal
        > to the Apostles, has invariably been a characteristic of Orthodox
        > pastoral and missionary work.
        > Therefore, so as to have a certain guarantee in the preservation of
        > an established, familiar order, some of our compatriots living in
        > Western countries - and some of the local Orthodox who form part of
        > communities living according to the Russian tradition - wish to
        > structure their Church life according to their own Statutes, which
        > guarantee internal self-government and the election of their own
        > ruling bishop, on condition that the bishop so elected is then
        > confirmed by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy
        > Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.
        > Such wishes have been expressed in particular by the Diocesan
        > Assembly of the Diocese of Sourozh and have found expression in
        their
        > draft Statutes. They also represent a very significant element in
        > the conclusions arrived at by the "Commission on the Future of the
        > Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe"
        > established two years ago by the late Archbishop Serge of Evkarpia.
        > Such an arrangement is also envisaged in the current Statutes of the
        > Archdiocese.
        > Taking into consideration the combined weight of these wishes, I
        > consider that they could be realised through the creation in Western
        > Europe of a single Metropolia, consisting of several diocese and
        > embracing all the Orthodox parishes, monasteries and communities of
        > Russian origin and Russian spiritual tradition who would wish to be
        a
        > part of such a Metropolia. In addition to this it is envisaged that
        > such a Metropolia would be granted the right of self-government,
        > including the election of its ruling bishop by a Council of the
        > Metropolia consisting of bishops, presbyters and laity on the basis
        > of Statutes to be worked out with the participation of all groups in
        > the Orthodox Russian diaspora in the countries of Western Europe.
        > Until the first election of a Ruling Bishop (Metropolitan) takes
        > place we consider it right to entrust the care of the newly
        > constituted Metropolia to His Grace Anthony, Metropolitan of
        Sourozh,
        > despite his previously expressed wish to retire. The immense
        pastoral
        > experience and recognised spiritual authority of this universally
        > respected Bishop will act as a guarantee of success for this new way
        > of organising the life of the Russian Orthodox Church in Western
        > Europe.
        > In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
        > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
        > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
        > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
        > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
        > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual powers,
        > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
        > Metropolitan Anthony. At the next stage the Most Reverend Archbishop
        > Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad),
        > the Most Reverend Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend
        > Archbishop Feofan of Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend
        > Archbishop Paul of Vienna and Budapest should obviously also be
        > invited to take part in the process, so that the restoration of
        > Church unity in the Russian diaspora can be extended to the
        countries
        > of Central Europe as well.
        > We hope that an autonomous Metropolia, uniting all the faithful of
        > the Russian Orthodox tradition in the countries of Western Europe,
        > will serve, at a time pleasing to God, as the foundation for the
        > future canonical establishment of a multinational Local Orthodox
        > Church of Western Europe, to be built in a spirit of conciliarity by
        > all the Orthodox faithful living in those countries.
        > In a spirit of love I call upon you all, dear Bishops, Fathers,
        > Brothers and Sisters, to labour in the great work of healing the
        > painful divisions of the Russian diaspora. May the God of love and
        > peace bless your efforts.
        >
        > (signed) + ALEXIS
        > PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
        > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
      • orthodoxchurch_sg
        Evlogite! Indeed ~ if I am invited to become a Mason, have I erred? If I am asked to a BBQ next week, have I broken the Fast? The desire of the
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 6, 2003
          Evlogite!
          Indeed ~ if I am invited to become a Mason, have I erred? If I am
          asked to a BBQ next week, have I broken the Fast?
          The desire of the 'super-Orthodox' to run to condemnation does no
          credit to their cause. "Help me to see my own faults and not to judge
          my brother" we pray most days during the Great Lent, but the desire
          on the part of some to condemn and judge their hierarchs sometimes
          beggars belief.
          Fr Daniel
        • boulia_1
          This is indeed interesting and it will be interesting to see the reactions to this letter, particularly from the Synod. My husband pointed out its date: April
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 7, 2003
            This is indeed interesting and it will be interesting to see the
            reactions to this letter, particularly from the Synod.

            My husband pointed out its date: April Fool's Day (Ne komu ne veri).

            Still, if this letter IS 'for real,' it is interesting that Abp. Mark
            (who is healthy and active; as opposed to Vl. Amvrossy, who is unwell
            and wishes to retire) was not 'invited' to participate in the
            organization of this proposed new Metropolitinate now, even though
            his (ROCOR)diocese includes Great Britain (Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
            is in Great Britain).

            Also, I have heard from my relatives in England that Metropolitan
            Anthony's health is very poor.

            I certainly hope that everyone will restrain themselves from jumping
            to conclusions and rushing to condemn our ROCOR hierarchs; remember,
            THEY did not write this letter (in fact, I wonder who did?).


            Wishing all a joyous Feast of the Annunciation,
            Elizabeth




            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
            <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
            > Dear List,
            >
            > Below is a very interesting document dated April 1, 2003, and
            > particularly the paragraph below, were Vl Amvrosii and vl Mark are
            > invited to collaborate with metropolitan Anthony.
            >
            > "…In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
            > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
            > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
            > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
            > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
            > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual
            powers,
            > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
            > Metropolitan Anthony.
            >
            > At the next stage the Most Reverend Archbishop Mark of Berlin,
            > Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad), the Most
            Reverend
            > Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend Archbishop Feofan of
            > Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend Archbishop Paul of Vienna
            > and Budapest should obviously also be invited to take part in the
            > process, so that the restoration of Church unity in the Russian
            > diaspora can be extended to the countries of Central Europe as
            well…"
            >
            >
            > in God
            >
            > Vladimir Kozyreff
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.sourozh.org/news/patriarch010403_en.htm
            >
            >
            > The following letter has been received by Metropolitan Anthony and
            he
            > has asked that it be placed on our diocesan website and given
            general
            > distribution. The proposals made in it are quite clearly of great
            > importance for the Diocese of Sourozh. Indeed, if it proves
            possible
            > to implement them, they will significantly affect the development
            of
            > Orthodoxy in Western and Central Europe.
            >
            > + Basil
            >
            > Bishop of Sergievo
            > Assistant Bishop
            > Diocese of Sourozh
            >
            >
            >
            > THE PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
            > ALEXIS
            > 1st April
            >
            2003
            > 119034 Moscow, Chistiy per. 5
            > Doc. No. 1378
            >
            > His Grace the Most Reverend Anthony,
            > Metropolitan of Sourozh
            > His Grace the Most Reverend Simon,
            > Archbishop of Brussels and Belgium
            > His Grace the Most Reverend Innokentii,
            > Archbishop of Korsun
            > His Grace the Right Reverend Gabriel,
            > Bishop of Komana,
            > Locum Tenens of the Archdiocese
            > of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe
            > His Grace the Right Reverend Amvrosii,
            > Bishop of Geneva and Western Europe
            > (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad)
            > and all Orthodox parishes of Russian tradition in Western Europe
            >
            > Most Reverend Bishops,
            > dear Fathers, Brothers and Sisters!
            > During these forty days of Holy Lent we think constantly about the
            > future of the heritage of the Russian Church which follows the
            > traditions of Russian Orthodoxy in the countries of the West.
            > By the grace of God, through the intercession of the Queen of
            Heaven
            > and the prayers of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, Church
            > life in our country is being successfully reborn in all its
            fullness.
            > Of course one must not yield to the temptation of a misplaced
            > triumphalism: on the human side there are still very many
            > shortcomings in the good ordering of our Holy Church. The Lord
            > expects from us a greater depth of repentance, a greater readiness
            > for sacrifice, a greater zeal in our work for the salvation and
            > enlightenment of the millions of people, who though they have been
            > baptised were not brought up in the Orthodox faith as children.
            > However, the temptations and weaknesses to be observed in the
            Church
            > community in our country are mainly due to "growing pains". A
            > spring-like awakening after a long and cruel winter of enforced god-
            > lessness can be neither instantaneous nor painless.
            > The picture changes when we look at the Church life of our
            > compatriots in the diaspora. The first question which inevitably
            > arises is: how can one explain the continuing separation of the
            > sundered parts of the Russian Church? Clearly it was brought into
            > being by the historical tragedy of the Russian people, the
            breakdown
            > of society as a result of the catastrophe that was the Revolution.
            > Both Metropolitan Anthony [Khrapovitsky – Ed.] and Metropolitan
            > Evlogii made it clear that their move away from full unity with the
            > Mother Church in our country was motivated only by political rather
            > than by any other reasons. These outstanding bishop-pastors, each
            in
            > his own way, deeply loved the Russia they were never to see again,
            > and each believed that Church unity would be restored as soon as
            the
            > yoke of godlessness oppressing their country was broken. Their
            > fellow bishops, who experienced the full ferocity of the
            persecution
            > of the Church in the USSR of that time, believed this too. His
            > Holiness Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, also believed this
            > when, in 1931, he voiced his opinion that the temporary
            subordination
            > of the Russian Exarchate in Western Europe to the throne of
            > Constantinople would continue "until, God willing, unity and the
            > unbroken image of the Holy sister Russian Church are restored." His
            > Holiness Patriarch Athenagoras confirmed this when, in 1965, he
            gave
            > his blessing to the Exarchate of Russian Parishes in Western Europe
            > for their return to the bosom of the Russian Orthodox Church.
            > We can hardly doubt that the time has come for a restoration of
            > unity. We have already written on this matter in brotherly
            epistles,
            > in September of last year to His Holiness Bartholomew, Patriarch of
            > Constantinople, and in the preceding year to the members of the
            > Episcopal Council of the Russian Church Abroad. We consider that
            the
            > time has now come for us to address this epistle directly to our
            > compatriots in the countries of Western Europe and to their
            spiritual
            > pastors. Why is it that now, when the years of sore trials have
            > passed, when the Mother Church can freely fulfil its calling and
            > Russia aspires to restore continuity with its historical past,
            Church
            > divisions still continue, though the reasons for them have long
            > disappeared? Why do we not fulfil the hopes of our predecessors and
            > spiritual fathers?
            > Apart from those reasons that have their roots in human sinfulness,
            > there are other, more benign reasons for this. The grandchildren
            and
            > great grandchildren of the `first generation' émigrés feel that
            they
            > have in every sense put down roots in the countries where they now
            > live and where they play an active part in social and cultural
            life.
            > While the heritage of their fathers is precious to them, many of
            > these representatives of the Russian spiritual tradition who live
            in
            > Western Europe wish to preserve the forms of Church life which have
            > gradually developed over many years conditions quite unlike those
            in
            > which the Church found itself in Russia, though these forms are
            > rooted in the same canonical tradition, as set out in the
            regulations
            > established by the Ecumenical and Local Councils and by the Fathers
            > of the Church, traditions made manifest in the acts and decisions
            of
            > the All-Russian Local Council (Sobor) of 1917-1918.
            > In addition to this, parishes founded by Russians and following
            > Russian traditions have over the years acquired a multinational
            > character and in liturgical practice make widespread use of local
            > languages, which since the time of Saints Cyril and Methodius,
            Equal
            > to the Apostles, has invariably been a characteristic of Orthodox
            > pastoral and missionary work.
            > Therefore, so as to have a certain guarantee in the preservation of
            > an established, familiar order, some of our compatriots living in
            > Western countries - and some of the local Orthodox who form part of
            > communities living according to the Russian tradition - wish to
            > structure their Church life according to their own Statutes, which
            > guarantee internal self-government and the election of their own
            > ruling bishop, on condition that the bishop so elected is then
            > confirmed by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy
            > Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.
            > Such wishes have been expressed in particular by the Diocesan
            > Assembly of the Diocese of Sourozh and have found expression in
            their
            > draft Statutes. They also represent a very significant element in
            > the conclusions arrived at by the "Commission on the Future of the
            > Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe"
            > established two years ago by the late Archbishop Serge of Evkarpia.
            > Such an arrangement is also envisaged in the current Statutes of
            the
            > Archdiocese.
            > Taking into consideration the combined weight of these wishes, I
            > consider that they could be realised through the creation in
            Western
            > Europe of a single Metropolia, consisting of several diocese and
            > embracing all the Orthodox parishes, monasteries and communities of
            > Russian origin and Russian spiritual tradition who would wish to be
            a
            > part of such a Metropolia. In addition to this it is envisaged that
            > such a Metropolia would be granted the right of self-government,
            > including the election of its ruling bishop by a Council of the
            > Metropolia consisting of bishops, presbyters and laity on the basis
            > of Statutes to be worked out with the participation of all groups
            in
            > the Orthodox Russian diaspora in the countries of Western Europe.
            > Until the first election of a Ruling Bishop (Metropolitan) takes
            > place we consider it right to entrust the care of the newly
            > constituted Metropolia to His Grace Anthony, Metropolitan of
            Sourozh,
            > despite his previously expressed wish to retire. The immense
            pastoral
            > experience and recognised spiritual authority of this universally
            > respected Bishop will act as a guarantee of success for this new
            way
            > of organising the life of the Russian Orthodox Church in Western
            > Europe.
            > In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
            > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
            > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
            > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
            > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
            > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual
            powers,
            > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
            > Metropolitan Anthony. At the next stage the Most Reverend
            Archbishop
            > Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad),
            > the Most Reverend Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend
            > Archbishop Feofan of Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend
            > Archbishop Paul of Vienna and Budapest should obviously also be
            > invited to take part in the process, so that the restoration of
            > Church unity in the Russian diaspora can be extended to the
            countries
            > of Central Europe as well.
            > We hope that an autonomous Metropolia, uniting all the faithful of
            > the Russian Orthodox tradition in the countries of Western Europe,
            > will serve, at a time pleasing to God, as the foundation for the
            > future canonical establishment of a multinational Local Orthodox
            > Church of Western Europe, to be built in a spirit of conciliarity
            by
            > all the Orthodox faithful living in those countries.
            > In a spirit of love I call upon you all, dear Bishops, Fathers,
            > Brothers and Sisters, to labour in the great work of healing the
            > painful divisions of the Russian diaspora. May the God of love and
            > peace bless your efforts.
            >
            > (signed) + ALEXIS
            > PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
          • vkozyreff
            Dear Father Daniel, bless. The autonomy that Patriarch Aleksy II is suggesting here has already been suggested by Vl Mark before. Vl Mark probably does not
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 7, 2003
              Dear Father Daniel, bless.

              The autonomy that "Patriarch" Aleksy II is suggesting here has
              already been suggested by Vl Mark before. Vl Mark probably does not
              consider that the invitation is that negative and would probably not
              equate this to an invitation to become a Mason. Vl Amvrosii, I
              believe, has always agreed with Vl Mark in this matter. The
              invitation does not mention ecumenism or sergianism, but neither Vl
              Mark nor Vl Amvrosii seemed to believe that these are obstacles.

              I think the question is not about judging people, be it our ROCOR
              hierarchs or the MP hierarchs. The question is to know whether ROCOR
              follows the right course. As we all know, there have been
              disagreements on this matter. Observing contradictions and detecting
              them has nothing to do with "the desire on the part of some to
              condemn and judge their hierarchs". Again, we are not judging people.
              We are discussing proposals. Lay people too may do this. The question
              is:

              1. Is that autonomy acceptable in the present conditions? (Union
              before the MP has renounced sergianism and ecumenism.)
              2. How will the 2 ROCOR hierarchs reply? (The invitation seems to
              correspond to wishes that they already expressed before.)

              I would like to add that there is no "super orthodox", in my opinion.
              There are only orthodox and non - orthodox. An orthodox should be
              fundamentally orthodox, because nothing is wrong in orthodoxy. You
              cannot become better by becoming a little bit less orthodox. There is
              no such thing as being "too much orthodox".

              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff

              In his June 5, 2002 interview to "Nezavisimaya gazeta", Vl Mark
              says:
              - "In the remote prospect there could be a form of coexistence, and a
              further dialogue in the form which was described already by Patriarch
              Aleksy II.
              - In one of the interviews he gave, he recognised natural, that the
              ROCOR part of the Russian Church has a life, features which were
              developed for 80 years, and nobody should bury them into oblivion.
              - For example, among our parishioners there are a a lot of non-
              Russians. We thus in many respects differ from the Russian parishes.
              - Any model of a mutual recognition which gradually would pass in the
              form of an autonomy is therefore necessary".

              http://religion.ng.ru/people/2002-06-05/1_looking.html




              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
              <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Evlogite!
              > Indeed ~ if I am invited to become a Mason, have I erred? If I am
              > asked to a BBQ next week, have I broken the Fast?
              > The desire of the 'super-Orthodox' to run to condemnation does no
              > credit to their cause. "Help me to see my own faults and not to
              judge
              > my brother" we pray most days during the Great Lent, but the desire
              > on the part of some to condemn and judge their hierarchs sometimes
              > beggars belief.
              > Fr Daniel
            • Joachim Wertz
              I have some problems with this letter. The language just doesn t sound official or ecclesiastical enough. It is unclear, at least to me, whether Bishop Simon
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 7, 2003
                I have some problems with this letter. The language just doesn't sound
                official or ecclesiastical enough. It is unclear, at least to me, whether
                Bishop Simon is already Bishop of Brussels or "will be" elected. Is it a
                foregone conclusion? Also, when all these MP vicar Bishops are mentioned,
                why is not Bishop Agapit mentioned along side of Archbishop Mark? What ever
                became of the MP Bishop Hilarion of Brussels? Now as I understand it, there
                might be some legal considerations involved that necessitate treating Bishop
                Amvrosii and Archbishop Mark on different levels. For example, I think that
                any ecclesiastical institution based in Germany cannot legally exercise
                jurisdiction in Austria. I have heard or read this, although the situation
                of the Serbian Church in Germany and western Europe would seem to contradict
                this. Those who know better, please correct me if I am wrong. So any Russian
                Orthodox Metropolia for Western Europe might have to be administratively
                distinct from one for Germany.

                Joachim Wertz

                From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:15:11 -0000
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
                Anthony


                This is indeed interesting and it will be interesting to see the
                reactions to this letter, particularly from the Synod.

                My husband pointed out its date: April Fool's Day (Ne komu ne veri).

                Still, if this letter IS 'for real,' it is interesting that Abp. Mark
                (who is healthy and active; as opposed to Vl. Amvrossy, who is unwell
                and wishes to retire) was not 'invited' to participate in the
                organization of this proposed new Metropolitinate now, even though
                his (ROCOR)diocese includes Great Britain (Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
                is in Great Britain).

                Also, I have heard from my relatives in England that Metropolitan
                Anthony's health is very poor.

                I certainly hope that everyone will restrain themselves from jumping
                to conclusions and rushing to condemn our ROCOR hierarchs; remember,
                THEY did not write this letter (in fact, I wonder who did?).


                Wishing all a joyous Feast of the Annunciation,
                Elizabeth




                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                > Dear List,
                >
                > Below is a very interesting document dated April 1, 2003, and
                > particularly the paragraph below, were Vl Amvrosii and vl Mark are
                > invited to collaborate with metropolitan Anthony.
                >
                > "…In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
                > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
                > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
                > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
                > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
                > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual
                powers,
                > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
                > Metropolitan Anthony.
                >
                > At the next stage the Most Reverend Archbishop Mark of Berlin,
                > Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad), the Most
                Reverend
                > Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend Archbishop Feofan of
                > Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend Archbishop Paul of Vienna
                > and Budapest should obviously also be invited to take part in the
                > process, so that the restoration of Church unity in the Russian
                > diaspora can be extended to the countries of Central Europe as
                well…"
                >
                >
                > in God
                >
                > Vladimir Kozyreff
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > http://www.sourozh.org/news/patriarch010403_en.htm
                >
                >
                > The following letter has been received by Metropolitan Anthony and
                he
                > has asked that it be placed on our diocesan website and given
                general
                > distribution. The proposals made in it are quite clearly of great
                > importance for the Diocese of Sourozh. Indeed, if it proves
                possible
                > to implement them, they will significantly affect the development
                of
                > Orthodoxy in Western and Central Europe.
                >
                > + Basil
                >
                > Bishop of Sergievo
                > Assistant Bishop
                > Diocese of Sourozh
                >
                >
                >
                > THE PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
                > ALEXIS
                > 1st April
                >
                2003
                > 119034 Moscow, Chistiy per. 5
                > Doc. No. 1378
                >
                > His Grace the Most Reverend Anthony,
                > Metropolitan of Sourozh
                > His Grace the Most Reverend Simon,
                > Archbishop of Brussels and Belgium
                > His Grace the Most Reverend Innokentii,
                > Archbishop of Korsun
                > His Grace the Right Reverend Gabriel,
                > Bishop of Komana,
                > Locum Tenens of the Archdiocese
                > of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe
                > His Grace the Right Reverend Amvrosii,
                > Bishop of Geneva and Western Europe
                > (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad)
                > and all Orthodox parishes of Russian tradition in Western Europe
                >
                > Most Reverend Bishops,
                > dear Fathers, Brothers and Sisters!
                > During these forty days of Holy Lent we think constantly about the
                > future of the heritage of the Russian Church which follows the
                > traditions of Russian Orthodoxy in the countries of the West.
                > By the grace of God, through the intercession of the Queen of
                Heaven
                > and the prayers of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, Church
                > life in our country is being successfully reborn in all its
                fullness.
                > Of course one must not yield to the temptation of a misplaced
                > triumphalism: on the human side there are still very many
                > shortcomings in the good ordering of our Holy Church. The Lord
                > expects from us a greater depth of repentance, a greater readiness
                > for sacrifice, a greater zeal in our work for the salvation and
                > enlightenment of the millions of people, who though they have been
                > baptised were not brought up in the Orthodox faith as children.
                > However, the temptations and weaknesses to be observed in the
                Church
                > community in our country are mainly due to "growing pains". A
                > spring-like awakening after a long and cruel winter of enforced god-
                > lessness can be neither instantaneous nor painless.
                > The picture changes when we look at the Church life of our
                > compatriots in the diaspora. The first question which inevitably
                > arises is: how can one explain the continuing separation of the
                > sundered parts of the Russian Church? Clearly it was brought into
                > being by the historical tragedy of the Russian people, the
                breakdown
                > of society as a result of the catastrophe that was the Revolution.
                > Both Metropolitan Anthony [Khrapovitsky – Ed.] and Metropolitan
                > Evlogii made it clear that their move away from full unity with the
                > Mother Church in our country was motivated only by political rather
                > than by any other reasons. These outstanding bishop-pastors, each
                in
                > his own way, deeply loved the Russia they were never to see again,
                > and each believed that Church unity would be restored as soon as
                the
                > yoke of godlessness oppressing their country was broken. Their
                > fellow bishops, who experienced the full ferocity of the
                persecution
                > of the Church in the USSR of that time, believed this too. His
                > Holiness Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, also believed this
                > when, in 1931, he voiced his opinion that the temporary
                subordination
                > of the Russian Exarchate in Western Europe to the throne of
                > Constantinople would continue "until, God willing, unity and the
                > unbroken image of the Holy sister Russian Church are restored." His
                > Holiness Patriarch Athenagoras confirmed this when, in 1965, he
                gave
                > his blessing to the Exarchate of Russian Parishes in Western Europe
                > for their return to the bosom of the Russian Orthodox Church.
                > We can hardly doubt that the time has come for a restoration of
                > unity. We have already written on this matter in brotherly
                epistles,
                > in September of last year to His Holiness Bartholomew, Patriarch of
                > Constantinople, and in the preceding year to the members of the
                > Episcopal Council of the Russian Church Abroad. We consider that
                the
                > time has now come for us to address this epistle directly to our
                > compatriots in the countries of Western Europe and to their
                spiritual
                > pastors. Why is it that now, when the years of sore trials have
                > passed, when the Mother Church can freely fulfil its calling and
                > Russia aspires to restore continuity with its historical past,
                Church
                > divisions still continue, though the reasons for them have long
                > disappeared? Why do we not fulfil the hopes of our predecessors and
                > spiritual fathers?
                > Apart from those reasons that have their roots in human sinfulness,
                > there are other, more benign reasons for this. The grandchildren
                and
                > great grandchildren of the `first generation' émigrés feel that
                they
                > have in every sense put down roots in the countries where they now
                > live and where they play an active part in social and cultural
                life.
                > While the heritage of their fathers is precious to them, many of
                > these representatives of the Russian spiritual tradition who live
                in
                > Western Europe wish to preserve the forms of Church life which have
                > gradually developed over many years conditions quite unlike those
                in
                > which the Church found itself in Russia, though these forms are
                > rooted in the same canonical tradition, as set out in the
                regulations
                > established by the Ecumenical and Local Councils and by the Fathers
                > of the Church, traditions made manifest in the acts and decisions
                of
                > the All-Russian Local Council (Sobor) of 1917-1918.
                > In addition to this, parishes founded by Russians and following
                > Russian traditions have over the years acquired a multinational
                > character and in liturgical practice make widespread use of local
                > languages, which since the time of Saints Cyril and Methodius,
                Equal
                > to the Apostles, has invariably been a characteristic of Orthodox
                > pastoral and missionary work.
                > Therefore, so as to have a certain guarantee in the preservation of
                > an established, familiar order, some of our compatriots living in
                > Western countries - and some of the local Orthodox who form part of
                > communities living according to the Russian tradition - wish to
                > structure their Church life according to their own Statutes, which
                > guarantee internal self-government and the election of their own
                > ruling bishop, on condition that the bishop so elected is then
                > confirmed by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy
                > Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.
                > Such wishes have been expressed in particular by the Diocesan
                > Assembly of the Diocese of Sourozh and have found expression in
                their
                > draft Statutes. They also represent a very significant element in
                > the conclusions arrived at by the "Commission on the Future of the
                > Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Parishes in Western Europe"
                > established two years ago by the late Archbishop Serge of Evkarpia.
                > Such an arrangement is also envisaged in the current Statutes of
                the
                > Archdiocese.
                > Taking into consideration the combined weight of these wishes, I
                > consider that they could be realised through the creation in
                Western
                > Europe of a single Metropolia, consisting of several diocese and
                > embracing all the Orthodox parishes, monasteries and communities of
                > Russian origin and Russian spiritual tradition who would wish to be
                a
                > part of such a Metropolia. In addition to this it is envisaged that
                > such a Metropolia would be granted the right of self-government,
                > including the election of its ruling bishop by a Council of the
                > Metropolia consisting of bishops, presbyters and laity on the basis
                > of Statutes to be worked out with the participation of all groups
                in
                > the Orthodox Russian diaspora in the countries of Western Europe.
                > Until the first election of a Ruling Bishop (Metropolitan) takes
                > place we consider it right to entrust the care of the newly
                > constituted Metropolia to His Grace Anthony, Metropolitan of
                Sourozh,
                > despite his previously expressed wish to retire. The immense
                pastoral
                > experience and recognised spiritual authority of this universally
                > respected Bishop will act as a guarantee of success for this new
                way
                > of organising the life of the Russian Orthodox Church in Western
                > Europe.
                > In the period preceding the election the Most Reverend Archbishop
                > Simon of Brussels and Belgium, the Most Reverend Archbishop
                > Innokentii of Korsun, the Right Reverend Bishop Gabriel of Komana,
                > the Right Reverend Bishop Amvrosii of Geneva and Western Europe, as
                > well as Archbishop Anatolii of Kerch, Bishop Basil of Sergievo and
                > Bishop Michael of Klavdiopolis, whilst retaining their usual
                powers,
                > are invited to become close collaborators and assistants to
                > Metropolitan Anthony. At the next stage the Most Reverend
                Archbishop
                > Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain (Russian Church Abroad),
                > the Most Reverend Archbishop Longin of Klinsk, the Most Reverend
                > Archbishop Feofan of Berlin and Germany, and the Most Reverend
                > Archbishop Paul of Vienna and Budapest should obviously also be
                > invited to take part in the process, so that the restoration of
                > Church unity in the Russian diaspora can be extended to the
                countries
                > of Central Europe as well.
                > We hope that an autonomous Metropolia, uniting all the faithful of
                > the Russian Orthodox tradition in the countries of Western Europe,
                > will serve, at a time pleasing to God, as the foundation for the
                > future canonical establishment of a multinational Local Orthodox
                > Church of Western Europe, to be built in a spirit of conciliarity
                by
                > all the Orthodox faithful living in those countries.
                > In a spirit of love I call upon you all, dear Bishops, Fathers,
                > Brothers and Sisters, to labour in the great work of healing the
                > painful divisions of the Russian diaspora. May the God of love and
                > peace bless your efforts.
                >
                > (signed) + ALEXIS
                > PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA


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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • orthodoxchurch_sg
                Dear in Christ Vladimir ~ You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 7, 2003
                  Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                  You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                  you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official statements?
                  You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy does
                  not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                  respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                  the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have read,
                  which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                  forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we were
                  not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                  and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                  Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
                  does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
                  consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not unthinking
                  automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in Orthodoxy
                  among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                  including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine and
                  Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
                  Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like on
                  the InterNet?
                  God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
                • Michael Nikitin
                  If dVG did observe the facts he would not be focusing on a signature, but on the Patriarch s proposed union of Churches in Europe. Which was not *merely*
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 7, 2003
                    If dVG did observe the facts he would not be focusing on a signature, but on
                    the Patriarch's proposed union of Churches in Europe. Which was not *merely*
                    addressed, but a calculated move.

                    We know that Bishop Ambrosy permits his priests in France to serve with MP
                    and we know Bishops Mark's inclination for union with MP.

                    The French,who would oppose such union, are out of the way. The road is
                    open in Europe (the French left because of Bishop Ambrosy's leaning for
                    union with MP). In America, Canada and Australia more caution is taken,
                    because there are still a lot of parishes who are opposing union with MP.

                    The MP is in the WCC and prays with heretics.

                    In Russia, parishes of ROCOR(V) wanted to register, but were thwarted by
                    ROCOR(L) who wrote to the Gov't that they were not a Church. See
                    http://www.listok.com in Russian.

                    Someone doesn't want the faithful of ROCOR(L) in Russia to go to ROCOR(V)
                    when union with MP occurs.

                    With the MP nothing is *merely*.

                    It will be interesting to see what type of economia is used by the MP when
                    ROCOR(L), seen as a schismatic Church by MP, will be embraced.

                    Michael N.




                    From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>
                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
                    Anthony
                    Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 00:45:24 -0000

                    What signature? It appears that bishop Amvrosy was merely
                    addressed... perhaps another example of how the "super-orthodox"
                    observe everything but the facts...
                    dVG


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                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear Father Daniel, bless. I thank you for your good words. You write: Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he does not carry the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 8, 2003
                      Dear Father Daniel, bless.

                      I thank you for your good words.

                      You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
                      discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
                      out upon him at his consecration?

                      1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
                      MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
                      to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
                      KGB anti God activity.

                      2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
                      schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
                      of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

                      3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
                      have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
                      the Church that disagree with one another.

                      4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
                      have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
                      were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
                      know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
                      longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
                      is to be all on the same ship.

                      5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
                      that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
                      possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
                      communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
                      none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
                      ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
                      flock to commune with the MP.

                      6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                      question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                      ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                      concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                      sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                      In God and asking your prayers,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff



                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                      <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                      > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                      > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                      > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                      statements?
                      > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
                      does
                      > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                      > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                      > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
                      read,
                      > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                      > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
                      were
                      > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                      > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                      > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
                      > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
                      > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
                      unthinking
                      > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
                      Orthodoxy
                      > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                      > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
                      and
                      > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
                      > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
                      on
                      > the InterNet?
                      > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
                    • Victor Artzimovitch
                      ... From: vkozyreff To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 8, 2003
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
                        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
                        Anthony

                        Please allow some comments:

                        Dear Father Daniel, bless.

                        I thank you for your good words.

                        You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
                        discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
                        out upon him at his consecration?

                        1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
                        MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
                        to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
                        KGB anti God activity.

                        Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
                        Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very different
                        reasons.

                        2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
                        schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
                        of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

                        ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....

                        3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
                        have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
                        the Church that disagree with one another.

                        ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
                        preasts...?

                        4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
                        have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
                        were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
                        know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
                        longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
                        is to be all on the same ship.

                        ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
                        Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
                        probably MP.
                        Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help the
                        captains to find back the right track...
                        Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

                        5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
                        that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
                        possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
                        communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
                        none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
                        ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
                        flock to commune with the MP.

                        Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
                        How can we not accept "just" a discussion?

                        6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                        question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                        ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                        concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                        sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                        Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a statement?

                        V.Artzimovitch

                        In God and asking your prayers,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff



                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                        <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                        > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                        > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                        > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                        statements?
                        > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
                        does
                        > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                        > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                        > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
                        read,
                        > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                        > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
                        were
                        > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                        > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                        > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
                        > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
                        > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
                        unthinking
                        > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
                        Orthodoxy
                        > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                        > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
                        and
                        > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
                        > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
                        on
                        > the InterNet?
                        > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel



                        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • vkozyreff
                        Dear V, Regarding the possibility of ROCOR to make the MP change course after the reunion, even Father Alexander Lebedeff does not believe in it. We all know
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 8, 2003
                          Dear V,

                          Regarding the possibility of ROCOR to make the MP change course
                          after the reunion, even Father Alexander Lebedeff does not believe in
                          it.

                          We all know where Vl Mark did study, but we also know that his
                          application to the Trinity St Sergius Lavra was turned down.

                          You write: "How can we not accept "just" a discussion (with the MP)?
                          There are many recommendations to the contrary in the Holy Fathers.

                          This letter is probably a hoax, but it has been an interesting
                          opportunity to exchange ideas.

                          The good thing is that this time we did not fight. Glory to God.

                          In Christ,

                          Vladimir Kozyreff

                          PS I have a special friendship to your family (your father and your
                          sister), with regards to the marvellous memories that my children
                          have kept of their Vitiazi years. This friendship automatically
                          spills over to you.


                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Artzimovitch"
                          <vartzimovitch@v...> wrote:
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                          > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
                          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
                          Metropolitan
                          > Anthony
                          >
                          > Please allow some comments:
                          >
                          > Dear Father Daniel, bless.
                          >
                          > I thank you for your good words.
                          >
                          > You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
                          > discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
                          > out upon him at his consecration?
                          >
                          > 1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
                          > MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
                          > to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
                          > KGB anti God activity.
                          >
                          > Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
                          > Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very
                          different
                          > reasons.
                          >
                          > 2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen
                          into
                          > schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
                          > of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?
                          >
                          > ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....
                          >
                          > 3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
                          > have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
                          > the Church that disagree with one another.
                          >
                          > ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
                          > preasts...?
                          >
                          > 4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
                          > have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
                          > were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use.
                          We
                          > know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
                          > longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important
                          thing
                          > is to be all on the same ship.
                          >
                          > ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient
                          Rome!!!!
                          > Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of
                          reforms. So is
                          > probably MP.
                          > Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to
                          help the
                          > captains to find back the right track...
                          > Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....
                          >
                          > 5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
                          > that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
                          > possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
                          > communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
                          > none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
                          > ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
                          > flock to commune with the MP.
                          >
                          > Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
                          > How can we not accept "just" a discussion?
                          >
                          > 6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                          > question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                          > ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                          > concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                          > sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.
                          >
                          > Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a
                          statement?
                          >
                          > V.Artzimovitch
                          >
                          > In God and asking your prayers,
                          >
                          > Vladimir Kozyreff
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                          > <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                          > > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                          > > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                          > > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                          > statements?
                          > > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
                          > does
                          > > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                          > > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                          > > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
                          > read,
                          > > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                          > > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
                          > were
                          > > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                          > > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                          > > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that
                          he
                          > > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at
                          his
                          > > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
                          > unthinking
                          > > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
                          > Orthodoxy
                          > > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                          > > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
                          > and
                          > > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great
                          deal.
                          > > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
                          > on
                          > > the InterNet?
                          > > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • byakimov@csc.com.au
                          Dear Victor Our friend Vladimir meant that our current ROCA Bishops & priests who perefer any dialogue with the MP be undertaken when the ... MP has renounced
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 8, 2003
                            Dear Victor

                            Our friend Vladimir meant that our current ROCA Bishops & priests who
                            perefer
                            any dialogue with the MP be undertaken when the "... MP has renounced
                            sergianism and
                            ecumenism...." etc. Indeed & I am glad that it is very sizeable!

                            protodeacon Basil from Canberra




                            "Victor Artzimovitch" <vartzimovitch@...> on 09/04/2003 03:17:03 AM

                            Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                            cc:
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
                            Metropolitan Anthony



                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:48 PM
                            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to Metropolitan
                            Anthony

                            Please allow some comments:

                            Dear Father Daniel, bless.

                            I thank you for your good words.

                            You write: "Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful?
                            discerning? that he does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured
                            out upon him at his consecration?

                            1. Vl Mark was once disciplined for not being careful vis-à-vis the
                            MP. I cannot understand why, having been a NTS activist, he applied
                            to study in the Trinity St Sergius Lavra when it was the centre of
                            KGB anti God activity.

                            Vl.Mark studied (as far as I know) in the Belgrade academy.
                            Vl.Mark was disciplined as was ex-Vl. Varnava, but for very different
                            reasons.

                            2. The number of bishops who, in the past, have erred and fallen into
                            schism, apostasy or heresy is considerable. Did they carry the grace
                            of the Apostles poured out upon him at his consecration?

                            ...so is the case of ex-Vl. Varnava....

                            3. We are not choosing between my opinion and that of a bishop. We
                            have to choose between the opinion of bishops and sizeable parts of
                            the Church that disagree with one another.

                            ... what is a "sizeable part of the Church" ? One ex-bishop and some
                            preasts...?

                            4. We are not accusing or condemning the captains of the ships. We
                            have only to choose which ship to board. We know that some maps that
                            were obviously wrong have not been corrected and are still in use. We
                            know also that some captains say now that it does not matter any
                            longer what maps will be used. They say that the most important thing
                            is to be all on the same ship.

                            ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
                            Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
                            probably MP.
                            Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help
                            the
                            captains to find back the right track...
                            Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

                            5. You write: "There is nothing in the official documents of ROCOR,
                            that I have been shown or have read, which indicates that it is not
                            possible to discuss possible ways forward following the fall of
                            communism in Russia". Speaking about official documents, there is
                            none that show any will on the part of the MP to quit sergianism and
                            ecumenism, and yet, we are invited to unite. Vl Amvrosii allows his
                            flock to commune with the MP.

                            Our Lord has not refused Judas of being part in the Last Supper...
                            How can we not accept "just" a discussion?

                            6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                            question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                            ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                            concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                            sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                            Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a
                            statement?

                            V.Artzimovitch

                            In God and asking your prayers,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff



                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxchurch_sg"
                            <orthodoxchurch_sg@y...> wrote:
                            > Dear in Christ Vladimir ~
                            > You believe this, you assume that, you suspect the other. What are
                            > you actually saying, based on evidence, teaching, official
                            statements?
                            > You are quite right - we are Orthodox or not. And our Orthodoxy
                            does
                            > not depend upon individual opinion, suspicion, assumption, however
                            > respected or revered the opinion giver may be. There is nothing in
                            > the official documents of ROCOR, that I have been shown or have
                            read,
                            > which indicates that it is not possible to discuss possible ways
                            > forward following the fall of communism in Russia. Indeed, if we
                            were
                            > not to consider it a possibilty we would be restricting the wisdom
                            > and the power and the glory of God. We must be careful, of course.
                            > Are you suggesting that Vl Mark is not careful? discerning? that he
                            > does not carry the grace of the Apostles poured out upon him at his
                            > consecration? Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not
                            unthinking
                            > automotons. Yet, surely, as I was taight and brought up in
                            Orthodoxy
                            > among the clergy and laity of ROCOR (I am now a priest in EP)
                            > including Metropolitan Philaret, Bishops Gregory and Constantine
                            and
                            > Mark, - humility and patience and obedience count for a great deal.
                            > Where are they when it comes to splashing documents you dont like
                            on
                            > the InterNet?
                            > God bless you and keep you well / Fr Daniel



                            Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                            Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • cantor71
                            ... Well, it is clearly not a hoax, as it has just been posted on the MP website (so far in Russian only). George
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 9, 2003
                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                              <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                              >
                              > This letter is probably a hoax, but it has been an interesting
                              > opportunity to exchange ideas.
                              >

                              Well, it is clearly not a hoax, as it has just been posted on the MP
                              website (so far in Russian only).

                              George

                              http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/nr304091.htm
                            • Michael Nikitin
                              From: Victor Artzimovitch Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com To: Subject: Re:
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 9, 2003
                                From: "Victor Artzimovitch" <vartzimovitch@...>
                                Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: collaborators and assistants to
                                Metropolitan Anthony
                                Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:17:03 +0200


                                ...it's like flying a Boeing 747 with maps dated back to ancient Rome!!!!
                                Times have changed, Russia is in a very difficult process of reforms. So is
                                probably MP.
                                Yes, the most important thing is to be on the same ship in order to help the
                                captains to find back the right track...
                                Just pointing that the map is wrong is not enough....

                                We should change the Church to the times?

                                The French did want to stay on course , but the Captains took the new
                                course . They are flying the ship and didn't want anyone interfering. I find
                                it is hard to help the Captains find back the right track. They won't
                                listen. That's why so many left and are leaving.
                                Why crash with them when one can take another ship and fly the same safe
                                route as our Holy Fathers? Knowing at least that we are following
                                the course the Captains took that never crashed.



                                6. The question is not "to unite or not to unite with the MP". The
                                question is "To unite after the MP has renounced sergianism and
                                ecumenism or before it has renounced sergianism and ecumenism". I am
                                concerned, and this concern is not only mine. It is the concern of a
                                sizeable part of the Church and of bishops.

                                Should this question not be part of our discussions? ...and not a statement?

                                V.Artzimovitch

                                ROCOR in it's letter to Patriarch Pavel begged him to pave the way for
                                dialogue and eventual union with MP. The MP wrote that ROCOR was in schism
                                from the Russian Church. Who's uniting to whom? How will ROCOR be united
                                with MP since they are in schism?

                                If we are not to waite for MP to show their good will to the faith and
                                renounce ecumenism that we Anathemetized, what should we expect from her?
                                Some concessions here and there and say they repented?
                                The MP have to show a desire to renounce these heresies, otherwise what's
                                stopping us from having dialogue with the Muslims, Jews, Latins,
                                Protestants, etc....Not a good idea.

                                Michael N.



                                _________________________________________________________________
                                Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
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                              • frpeterjackson
                                ... The phrase rational sheep is often misunderstood, mainly because of the clumsy tranlation. Rational as used here is an overly-literal rendering of the
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 14, 2003
                                  Just an aside: It was said:

                                  >Yes, the laity should be rational sheep, not unthinking
                                  > automotons.

                                  The phrase "rational sheep" is often misunderstood, mainly because of
                                  the clumsy tranlation. "Rational" as used here is an overly-literal
                                  rendering of the Greek "logikos", which did not mean "logical" at the
                                  time. (I don't think it took on this sense till the Middle Ages.) It
                                  come from "logos", meaning the inner, non-literal sense of something,
                                  rather the the superficial meaning. IOW, "logikos/rational" refers to
                                  what we what call the metaphorical sense. "Metaphorical", then, is
                                  the best way to render this (though I doubt anyone will ever bother
                                  to do so). As Christ's sheep, we are to be reasonable, certainly, but
                                  the phrase in question has nothing to do w/this. Rather, it simply
                                  means that we are His "metaphorical sheep", rather than literal cud-
                                  chewing, bleating creatures.

                                  Another case which comes to mind is Romans 12:1, which speaks of us
                                  offering ourselves as living sacrifices because this is
                                  our "reasonable service". Again, the word "reasonable" is "logikos"
                                  and should be translated as "metaphorical". More than once I have
                                  heard (or read) people respond to this passage saying, "Yes, offering
                                  our bodies as living sacrifices is only reasonable, after all."
                                  Actually, it's not very reasonable, and if anyone tried to crawl up
                                  onto the altar table, it would be a problem. "Reasonable" has nothing
                                  to do with what St. Paul is saying. "Service" here means liturgical
                                  worship, in the sense of the OT priests sacrificing animals in the
                                  Temple. St. Paul is merely saying that instead of sacrificing
                                  animals, we Christians are to offer ourselves; this is how we
                                  metaphorically serve God around a metaphorical altar. It is true
                                  service, to be sure, but not in the literal sense of a blood
                                  sacrifice.

                                  Fr. Peter Jackson
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