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RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: The New Soviet Man - Question

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  • Michael Nikitin
    Suffice it to say that if they were sincere Bishops after the fall of the Soviet State these sincere Bishops would not steal Churches from ROCOR, would get
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 28 4:41 AM
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      Suffice it to say that if they were sincere Bishops after the "fall" of the
      Soviet State these "sincere" Bishops would not steal Churches from ROCOR,
      would get out of World Orthodoxy, would not serve with heretics, etc....

      By their actions one will know them.

      Michael N.



      From: "Olhovsky, Sergey" <solhovsky@...>
      Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: The New Soviet Man - Question
      Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:13:25 -0500


      They were very careful in picking their bishops. Those that were picked
      after 1991 were educated as Soviet Man. The fall(in name only) of the Soviet
      Union was not an overnight incident. It was planned years before.
      If it were truly a fall ,those thugs who murdered millions would have
      been tried or fled, as were the Nazis in Nuhrenberg./

      I seem to recall an article in the Russian magazine "Ogonyok" that was
      was one of the first articles in the CIS that described the KGB infiltration
      into the MP after the archives regarding church matters were made public.

      As I see it there are two positions on the above dilemma:

      The first is that these Bishops were groomed by the atheist government to
      destroy the church from within and that these individuals are wolves in
      sheep's clothing that to this very day are working for the annihilation of
      the Orthodox church.

      The other argument is that these Bishops were pious individuals who had no
      choice but to cooperate with the atheist government in order to preserve the
      existence of the church at almost any cost so that it would see the day when
      communism would fall and the church would once again be free.

      I don't mean to incite another round of arguments on this matter and I'm not
      sure what to believe anymore and maybe Great Lent is not the time to
      re-ignite existing arguments but this list has been bombarded with so many
      statements - some factual, some anecdotal that I was wondering if we will
      ever know the truth?

      Have the Bishops in question and Patriarch Alexis ever been questioned about
      what was uncovered in the archives? Has there ever been an accounting of
      what really happened? How do the clergy and pious orthodox who currently
      live in the CIS regard this matter?

      Sergey Olhovsky



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    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... of the ... ROCOR, ... etc.... JRS: First of all, these are questions that must be decided by the entire Church of Russia as a whole, and are not up to the
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 28 10:35 AM
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        Michael Nikitin wrote:

        > Suffice it to say that if they were sincere Bishops after the "fall"
        of the
        > Soviet State these "sincere" Bishops would not steal Churches from
        ROCOR,
        > would get out of World Orthodoxy, would not serve with heretics,
        etc....

        JRS: First of all, these are questions that must be decided by the
        entire Church of Russia as a whole, and are not up to the individual
        bishops. Indeed, only a small circle has any say in such matters.

        As for "stealing churches from ROCOR", remember that from their point
        of view, these were the property of the Russian Church in general, and
        not simply of ROCOR: they were there before the revolution. The cases
        where parishes themselves sought to change jurisdictions, and where the
        case was disputed, probably are nowhere near the number of parishes
        that have left ROCOR for HOCNA, ROCiE, the OCA, Paris Exarchate, or
        elsewhere -- or, for that matter, have gone from the MP to ROCOR in a
        similar fashion.

        Of course, it hurts to see any of our churches leave us, regardless
        where they go. But in some cases, the fault has been our own.

        If there is disagreement about "World Orthodoxy" even within ROCOR, and
        if the question of who is a "heretic", and what constitutes "serving
        with heretics" is disputed even in our own circles, one can hardly
        derive anything from that.

        Last week I was shown a photo of Patriarch St. Tikhon, in his mantia
        and with his staff, together with a throng of American Episcopal
        bishops in comparable vestments, at the consecration of an Episcopal
        suffragan bishop in 1900.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • sputnikpsalomschchika
        I am not a member of the Synod; however it pains me deeply to see personal attacks against any member of the clergy on a list such as this. It s even more
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 30 5:47 AM
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          I am not a member of the Synod; however it pains me deeply to see
          personal attacks against any member of the clergy on a list such as
          this. It's even more difficult during Great Lent and when the object
          of the criticism is a priest whom I have come to respect highly - Fr.
          John R. Shaw, a man of the highest integrity and intellect. I
          believe Fr. John is a tremendous asset to ALL of the Orthdox faith,
          regardless of jurisdiction.

          Please remember that we are all talking openly about real people and
          the whole world is reading what we write. This includes our Lord
          Jesus Christ.

          Reader Michael Malloy
          Pitch-giver and musical semiconductor
          Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker (OCA)
          Columbus Ohio
        • William R. Mosher
          Dear Fr. John; Father, bless. Can you email me copies of the pictures of St. Tikhon with the Anglican bishops?. In IC XC Alban ... From: Fr. John R. Shaw To:
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 31 7:28 AM
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            Dear Fr. John;

            Father, bless.

            Can you email me copies of the pictures of St. Tikhon with the Anglican bishops?.

            In IC XC
            Alban

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Fr. John R. Shaw
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 12:35 PM
            Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: The New Soviet Man - Question


            Michael Nikitin wrote:

            > Suffice it to say that if they were sincere Bishops after the "fall"
            of the
            > Soviet State these "sincere" Bishops would not steal Churches from
            ROCOR,
            > would get out of World Orthodoxy, would not serve with heretics,
            etc....

            JRS: First of all, these are questions that must be decided by the
            entire Church of Russia as a whole, and are not up to the individual
            bishops. Indeed, only a small circle has any say in such matters.

            As for "stealing churches from ROCOR", remember that from their point
            of view, these were the property of the Russian Church in general, and
            not simply of ROCOR: they were there before the revolution. The cases
            where parishes themselves sought to change jurisdictions, and where the
            case was disputed, probably are nowhere near the number of parishes
            that have left ROCOR for HOCNA, ROCiE, the OCA, Paris Exarchate, or
            elsewhere -- or, for that matter, have gone from the MP to ROCOR in a
            similar fashion.

            Of course, it hurts to see any of our churches leave us, regardless
            where they go. But in some cases, the fault has been our own.

            If there is disagreement about "World Orthodoxy" even within ROCOR, and
            if the question of who is a "heretic", and what constitutes "serving
            with heretics" is disputed even in our own circles, one can hardly
            derive anything from that.

            Last week I was shown a photo of Patriarch St. Tikhon, in his mantia
            and with his staff, together with a throng of American Episcopal
            bishops in comparable vestments, at the consecration of an Episcopal
            suffragan bishop in 1900.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw






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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael Nikitin
            I m sorry, but one doesn t wait for the entire Church of Russia to decide if they, MP itself, is wrong in serving with heretics or not. This is Latin thinking.
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 31 10:35 AM
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              I'm sorry, but one doesn't wait for the entire Church of Russia to decide if
              they, MP itself, is wrong in serving with heretics or not. This is Latin
              thinking. Who is to say where there is an entire Russian Church? If we
              people were without discernment we would be part of the entire heretical
              Latin Church.

              Besides, why would the MP decide against itself? It is optimistic and
              naive.

              Maybe Fr. John can tell us when this entire Russian Church, as a whole, will
              be in existence so we don't have to waite 500 years and be serving with
              heretics in the meantime?

              Where did you get the photo of St. Patriarch Tikhon? What was the article
              all about? I doubt if St. Patriarch Tikhon was involved with Episcopalians
              to the extend that he served with them. But if he did, our bishops are not
              infallible and they CAN make a mistake.

              Michael N.


              From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
              Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: The New Soviet Man - Question
              Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:35:27 -0500


              Michael Nikitin wrote:

              > Suffice it to say that if they were sincere Bishops after the "fall"
              of the
              > Soviet State these "sincere" Bishops would not steal Churches from
              ROCOR,
              > would get out of World Orthodoxy, would not serve with heretics,
              etc....

              JRS: First of all, these are questions that must be decided by the
              entire Church of Russia as a whole, and are not up to the individual
              bishops. Indeed, only a small circle has any say in such matters.

              As for "stealing churches from ROCOR", remember that from their point
              of view, these were the property of the Russian Church in general, and
              not simply of ROCOR: they were there before the revolution. The cases
              where parishes themselves sought to change jurisdictions, and where the
              case was disputed, probably are nowhere near the number of parishes
              that have left ROCOR for HOCNA, ROCiE, the OCA, Paris Exarchate, or
              elsewhere -- or, for that matter, have gone from the MP to ROCOR in a
              similar fashion.

              Of course, it hurts to see any of our churches leave us, regardless
              where they go. But in some cases, the fault has been our own.

              If there is disagreement about "World Orthodoxy" even within ROCOR, and
              if the question of who is a "heretic", and what constitutes "serving
              with heretics" is disputed even in our own circles, one can hardly
              derive anything from that.

              Last week I was shown a photo of Patriarch St. Tikhon, in his mantia
              and with his staff, together with a throng of American Episcopal
              bishops in comparable vestments, at the consecration of an Episcopal
              suffragan bishop in 1900.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw






              _________________________________________________________________
              The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
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            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... decide if ... JRS: The issue is not whether or not they are wrong in serving with heretics , but rather, whether or not they *are* serving with
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 31 2:05 PM
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                Michael Nikitin wrote:

                > I'm sorry, but one doesn't wait for the entire Church of Russia to
                decide if
                > they, MP itself, is wrong in serving with heretics or not.

                JRS: The issue is not "whether or not they are wrong in serving with
                heretics", but rather, "whether or not they *are* serving with
                heretics". And at the present, to all appearances, they are not.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... Anglican bishops?. ... JRS: I can ask our deacon: he found the photo on the internet, and printed it from there. In Christ Fr. John R. Shaw
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 31 2:08 PM
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                  > Dear Fr. John;
                  >
                  > Father, bless.
                  >
                  > Can you email me copies of the pictures of St. Tikhon with the
                  Anglican bishops?.
                  >
                  > In IC XC
                  > Alban


                  JRS: I can ask our deacon: he found the photo on the internet, and
                  printed it from there.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • William R. Mosher
                  I believe that I have seen that picture in the past. St. Tikhon observed the consecration of a new Anglican bishop for the Episcopal Church. The Anglican
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 31 5:48 PM
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                    I believe that I have seen that picture in the past. St. Tikhon observed the consecration of a new Anglican bishop for the Episcopal Church. The Anglican bishops together agreed to seat Archbishop Tikhon, since he was an Archbishop, on the Cathedral throne for the ceremony. I believe he gave his blessing after the service.

                    Also, the ROCOR's first leader, Metropolitan Anthony, is know to have on occasion attend Evensong at London's St. Paul Cathedral, and even give his blessing, from the 'martyred Russian Orthodox Church'.

                    Also, the ROCOR sent observers to the Vatican II Roman Catholic council.

                    I am sure some of the fanatics would now insist that if any such things were done today, they would be howling that the Synod is 'serving with heretics'. Lets all get real, serving with heretics means primarily serving the Divine Liturgy together and partaking of holy communion together.

                    In IC XC,
                    Alban



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Michael Nikitin
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:35 PM
                    Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: The New Soviet Man - Question


                    I'm sorry, but one doesn't wait for the entire Church of Russia to decide if
                    they, MP itself, is wrong in serving with heretics or not. This is Latin
                    thinking. Who is to say where there is an entire Russian Church? If we
                    people were without discernment we would be part of the entire heretical
                    Latin Church.

                    Besides, why would the MP decide against itself? It is optimistic and
                    naive.

                    Maybe Fr. John can tell us when this entire Russian Church, as a whole, will
                    be in existence so we don't have to waite 500 years and be serving with
                    heretics in the meantime?

                    Where did you get the photo of St. Patriarch Tikhon? What was the article
                    all about? I doubt if St. Patriarch Tikhon was involved with Episcopalians
                    to the extend that he served with them. But if he did, our bishops are not
                    infallible and they CAN make a mistake.

                    Michael N.


                    From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: The New Soviet Man - Question
                    Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:35:27 -0500


                    Michael Nikitin wrote:

                    > Suffice it to say that if they were sincere Bishops after the "fall"
                    of the
                    > Soviet State these "sincere" Bishops would not steal Churches from
                    ROCOR,
                    > would get out of World Orthodoxy, would not serve with heretics,
                    etc....

                    JRS: First of all, these are questions that must be decided by the
                    entire Church of Russia as a whole, and are not up to the individual
                    bishops. Indeed, only a small circle has any say in such matters.

                    As for "stealing churches from ROCOR", remember that from their point
                    of view, these were the property of the Russian Church in general, and
                    not simply of ROCOR: they were there before the revolution. The cases
                    where parishes themselves sought to change jurisdictions, and where the
                    case was disputed, probably are nowhere near the number of parishes
                    that have left ROCOR for HOCNA, ROCiE, the OCA, Paris Exarchate, or
                    elsewhere -- or, for that matter, have gone from the MP to ROCOR in a
                    similar fashion.

                    Of course, it hurts to see any of our churches leave us, regardless
                    where they go. But in some cases, the fault has been our own.

                    If there is disagreement about "World Orthodoxy" even within ROCOR, and
                    if the question of who is a "heretic", and what constitutes "serving
                    with heretics" is disputed even in our own circles, one can hardly
                    derive anything from that.

                    Last week I was shown a photo of Patriarch St. Tikhon, in his mantia
                    and with his staff, together with a throng of American Episcopal
                    bishops in comparable vestments, at the consecration of an Episcopal
                    suffragan bishop in 1900.

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw






                    _________________________________________________________________
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Nikitin
                    There is no question the MP serves with heretics. They also give communion to the Latins. Is the MP in the World Council of Churches(WCC)? At the present, to
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 1, 2003
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                      There is no question the MP serves with heretics. They also give communion
                      to the Latins.

                      Is the MP in the World Council of Churches(WCC)? At the present, to all
                      appearances, they are.

                      Michael N.


                      From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
                      Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: The New Soviet Man - Question
                      Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:05:57 -0500

                      Michael Nikitin wrote:

                      > I'm sorry, but one doesn't wait for the entire Church of Russia to
                      decide if
                      > they, MP itself, is wrong in serving with heretics or not.

                      JRS: The issue is not "whether or not they are wrong in serving with
                      heretics", but rather, "whether or not they *are* serving with
                      heretics". And at the present, to all appearances, they are not.

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw






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