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Re: [orthodox-synod] Americano-Russian orthodox etiquette, the past and and the future

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  • Paul O. BARTLETT
    ... If one who is now an outsider may be so bold as to comment. I can understand the concern to return to Russia what some consider true Orthodoxy. However,
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 8, 2003
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      On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, vkozyreff wrote (very small excerpt):

      > I hope everybody will agree that our Church must remain Russian, if
      > it is to return to Russia some day.

      If one who is now an outsider may be so bold as to comment. I can
      understand the concern to return to Russia what some consider true
      Orthodoxy. However, for those who have no Russian ancestral
      background, there is often the desire to distinguish Orthodox
      Christianity from Russian ethnicity -- or any other ethnicity, for that
      matter. Is not the Orthodox Church described as catholic, that is,
      universal, in the Symbol of Faith? If so, it transcends any one
      ethnicity. This was a problem I had back in the mid-1970s in ROCOR: at
      times it seemed like Orthodoxy was getting swamped by Russianness.

      --
      Regards to all,
      Paul Bartlett
      bartlett at smart.net
      PGP key info in message headers
    • larry most
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Vladirir, No apology is necessary. I AM the one to cause the problem. You see I am an American Convert to
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 8, 2003
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        GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        Dear Vladirir,
        No apology is necessary. I AM the one to cause the problem. You see I am an American Convert to Orthodoxy. I was OCA when I lived in the Flint Mi area, but since moving to the Keweenaw Penninsula I've since joind the local Orthodox Mission Parish which happens to be ROCOR, and I just love it. I am the one who signed himself "sub-deacon Larry" because Lawrence is my name as well as my Baptismal name, and St. Lawrence the Arch-deacon is my patron saint. Larry is simply a diminutive of Lawrence. I sign all papers Lawrence, but most everyone calls me Larry. I changed to signing Sub-deacon Lawrence, because I saw that some were unconfortable with me using Larry. I hope this wasn't too long.
        Please have a good and fruitful Lent
        Love in Christ
        Sub-deacon Lawrence
        vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:Dear List,

        A member of this list (to whom I am grateful) wrote personally to
        me: "...addressing Subdeacon Lawrence by his surname, which most of
        us would interpret as being disrespectful..."

        I would like to apologise to Subdeacon Lawrence. I would like to tell
        him and all the members of this list that I did not at all intend in
        any way to be disrespectful. I hope nobody will doubt that my
        apologies are sincere, especially subdeacon Lawrence himself.

        I tried on the contrary to be respectful. Wondering about how I had
        to call him, I referred to the way he had signed himself (at least in
        one of his recent posts at that time when I started to discuss with
        him). I did not know at all that this way of addressing him would be
        regarded as disrespectful.

        As Archbishop Mark stressed, the ROCOR culture has become very little
        Russian (..."he saw it as natural that the Church Abroad has its own
        life, its own characteristics, which have developed in these 80
        years, and no one should forget them". So I sometimes hesitate in
        finding my way, as far as usage is concerned.

        "Subdeacon Larry" is certainly an unexpected thing for a Russian to
        say, Larry being a nickname. If I were a subdeacon, I would not
        expect anybody to call me "subdeacon Volodya". I remember reading
        somewhere etiquette recommendations for American orthodox that had
        converted from Protestantism. Contrarily to what was acceptable among
        the protestants, in the ROCOR, one would not say "Father Bob".
        Nevertheless, we Russians, embrace and kiss our priests, which the
        protestants, I think, would never do, even if they call them by their
        nicknames.

        The OCA, as far as it is concerned, has no objection to Father Bob.

        April 8, 2002
        To: Father Robert Kondratick, Chancellor
        rsk@...
        Orthodox Church in America
        Syosset, NY
        Dear Father Bob,

        http://www.pokrov.org/petition/OCA/oca4102002.htm

        (In the secular world, I never understood how Americans can call
        their President "Bill" even when being respectful. This is a question
        of culture, of course).

        In the future, I will say "Subdeacon Lawrence". I hope this is the
        right way.

        I hope everybody will agree that our Church must remain Russian, if
        it is to return to Russia some day. Etiquette is part of the culture
        and culture is also one of the things that Archbishop Mark speaks
        about in his famous interview.

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff



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      • boulia_1
        The issue of the ethnicity of the Church is a very important one and one fraught with much emotion. It is a good subject for discussion, I think. On the one
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 9, 2003
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          The issue of the ethnicity of the Church is a very important one and
          one fraught with much emotion.

          It is a good subject for discussion, I think.

          On the one hand, you have emigrants from Russia: Old Emigres are
          mostly dead, their children are aging and dying, and their
          grandchildren are now producing a fourth generation. Some of us
          already 2 generations removed from Russia (like me) nonetheless
          strongly identify with their Russian roots, thanks mostly to the
          upbringing I had with ROCOR church life as the core. Our lives were
          structure around the church calendar and related events, some of which
          were religious and sacred(divine services; for example: missing
          almost a week of school at Holy Week and Pascha) and some of which
          are, strictly speaking, ETHNIC (eating a lot of Blini before Lent,
          baking Kulichi and making Sirnaya Pascha during Holy Week...).

          Then there is the SECOND group of emigres: the "new" emigres (the
          ROCOR population which is probably LEAST represented on this list).
          These are people who grew up in the Soviet Union, where they were
          indoctrinated to be suspicious of, critical and even hostile towards
          religion in general and Orthodoxy in particular. Yet, miraculously,
          many of the products of this education system find their way to ROCOR,
          where, unfotunately, they are sometimes greeted with suspicion or
          outright hostility ("Sovietchiki!") by the old emigration crowd. The
          tough ones stick it out, but their approach to their faith still feels
          different than that seen in the old emigration, for, even though they
          are Russian, they are still CONVERTS: late-comers to the faith. Some
          are grateful for ROCOR's commitment to preserving Orthodoxy and the
          traditions that Communism tried to destroy (but couldn't!). Most seem
          not to be too aware or to care too much about jurisdictions, though:
          if there's a cupola and a cross and they sing "Otche Nash", then it's
          Russian.

          Then, there are the NON-Russians who come to ROCOR. I suspect that
          they are in every country where ROCOR has a presence (our Berlin
          parish has a few German 'refugees' from Protestantism), but nowhere is
          it as strong as in the U.S., I think. Now, this group, I confess, I
          understand the least: my husband was born in the Soviet Union, as were
          90% of my parish members including the clergy, so at least I know a
          little about them! But what is clear to me is, though some are
          certainly "Russo-philes" who enjoy the musical traditions or the
          cuisine, perhaps, or other aspects of Russian culture, for the
          American (or German or Argentinian) convert, the "Russian" part of
          "Russian Orthodox Church..." is not so important. In fact, it seems to
          be very frustrating to some.

          And that's where I always got stuck. Of course, my Christian
          sensibility is to welcome all the Catechumens and rejoice if someone
          has found the Truth. The Holy Spirit had the Apostles speaking
          tongues, showing that the Word would be spread in many languages (not
          just Greek or Church Slavonic or Aramaic!) And, yet, DESPITE this, I
          know I'm not the only one who feels protective about keeping the
          "Russian" in "Russian Orthodox Church Abroad/Outside Russia"...


          Now, what is interesting is that even Patriarch Alexei II has
          commented on this; I think it was in the Fall of 2001 that he issued a
          statement regarding ROCOR, where he noted that, eventually, it would
          not even be Russian or of interest to MP anymore.

          So, which is the most important part of our church's name: "Russian"
          or "Orthodox"? I am sure many of you have strong opinions on this
          matter: If possible, I would be interested in an intelligent
          discourse, without high emotion, on this topic.
        • vkozyreff
          Dear Paul, You write: Is not the Orthodox Church described as catholic, that is, universal, in the Symbol of Faith? If so, it transcends any one ethnicity . I
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 9, 2003
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            Dear Paul,

            You write:

            "Is not the Orthodox Church described as catholic, that is,
            universal, in the Symbol of Faith? If so, it transcends any one
            ethnicity".

            I think that one of orthodoxy's ways to be universal is indeed to
            have in principle one autocephalic orthodox Church per nation.

            Orthodox Churches have developed in the respect of linguistic and
            cultural pluralities. Confronted with the emergence of Nation-states,
            they did not try to oppose them, but became part of them from within.
            Moreover, they carry the name of their country: Greek, Russian, etc.
            Orthodox Church...

            "It is thus in the sense of "territorial" Churches that we must
            understand the notion of "autocephalic Churches". Every orthodox
            nation and every time lives according to its particular collective
            personality - Greek, Russian, Anglo-Saxon, Latin, African, medieval
            or modern, etc. - but this personal way of assuming the culture does
            not degenerate into a sense of identity or into a collective
            individualism.

            It does not generate either different "rites". To resume the
            terminology of Saint Maxim the Confessor, one could say that every
            orthodox people differs from the others by its own "tropos", its way
            of being personal and impossible to define, but that all have the
            same logos, possess the same essential characters, the
            same "definition", even from the point of view of their culture ".

            (Archimandrite Placide Deseille, " All, you are one in Christ: The
            people of God in the Empire and among nations " in "the Nations in
            the Church", p. 18).

            http://www.eglise-armenienne.com/Articles/Eglises_nationales.htm

            The existence of the ROCOR in the US is an exception that is related
            to the tragic historical events of the 20th century. She is intended
            to disappear when the reunion with the MP and the catacomb Church
            takes place. Her calling is to keep orthodoxy intact until she can
            return it to Russia, of which she is a part.

            In an interview, Patriarch Alexis of the MP declared (5-11-2001):

            "...You see, gradually the ROCOR will lose her "russianness": The
            hierarchy and clergy of the new generation already now frequently
            belong to the nations that occupy the territories in which the ROCOR
            operates. Time is short, unification of the ROCOR with the Mother –
            church is imperative, because in ten years the ROCOR will not be able
            to call herself Russian any longer".

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff




            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Paul O. BARTLETT"
            <bartlett@s...> wrote:
            > On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, vkozyreff wrote (very small excerpt):
            >
            > > I hope everybody will agree that our Church must remain Russian,
            if
            > > it is to return to Russia some day.
            >
            > If one who is now an outsider may be so bold as to comment. I
            can
            > understand the concern to return to Russia what some consider true
            > Orthodoxy. However, for those who have no Russian ancestral
            > background, there is often the desire to distinguish Orthodox
            > Christianity from Russian ethnicity -- or any other ethnicity, for
            that
            > matter. Is not the Orthodox Church described as catholic, that is,
            > universal, in the Symbol of Faith? If so, it transcends any one
            > ethnicity. This was a problem I had back in the mid-1970s in
            ROCOR: at
            > times it seemed like Orthodoxy was getting swamped by Russianness.
            >
            > --
            > Regards to all,
            > Paul Bartlett
            > bartlett at smart.net
            > PGP key info in message headers
          • tiajaia
            There is an interesting thing that Russian Orthodox children refer to God as Bojinka which is a diminutive of Bog . Nevertheless it does not dimisnish the
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 9, 2003
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              There is an interesting thing that Russian Orthodox children refer to
              God as "Bojinka" which is a diminutive of "Bog". Nevertheless it
              does not dimisnish the power of God Almighty. English, to my
              knowledge, has no such ability to be so concise, so
              endearing...taking someone so large and making Him almost smaller
              than a grain of sand yet not taking away anything of His Godliness.

              Just a thought...

              Paul
            • P. Joshua Hatala
              And, ... Just curious. When you say keeping the Russian in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad what particular quality of Russian are you referring to?
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 9, 2003
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                And,
                > yet, DESPITE this, I
                > know I'm not the only one who feels protective about
                > keeping the
                > "Russian" in "Russian Orthodox Church Abroad/Outside
                > Russia"...

                Just curious. When you say "keeping the 'Russian' in
                the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad" what particular
                quality of "Russian" are you referring to? The way the
                liturgy is conducted? Vestments? Focus on particular
                Russian saints? etc. or are you referring to the
                actual ethnic make-up of the jurisdiction's members?

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              • Kiril Bart
                Paul, Bojin ks is not just a diminitive form, but rather what called in Russian umen shitel no - laskatel noe , in my clymzy English it would be translated
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 9, 2003
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                  Paul, "Bojin'ks" is not just a diminitive form, but rather what called in Russian "umen'shitel'no - laskatel'noe", in my clymzy English it would be translated as diminishing - gentle. Best analogy would be Mother - Mommy, Father - Daddy.
                  Subdeacon Kirill
                  tiajaia <tiajaia@...> wrote:There is an interesting thing that Russian Orthodox children refer to
                  God as "Bojinka" which is a diminutive of "Bog". Nevertheless it
                  does not dimisnish the power of God Almighty. English, to my
                  knowledge, has no such ability to be so concise, so
                  endearing...taking someone so large and making Him almost smaller
                  than a grain of sand yet not taking away anything of His Godliness.

                  Just a thought...

                  Paul


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                • Paul O. BARTLETT
                  ... Certainly (in my opinion, at least) the situation of Orthodox Christianity in North America is one we might call suboptimal. I have noticed ethnicism
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 9, 2003
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                    On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, vkozyreff wrote (excerpted for conciseness):

                    > Dear Paul,
                    >
                    > You write:
                    >
                    > "Is not the Orthodox Church described as catholic, that is,
                    > universal, in the Symbol of Faith? If so, it transcends any one
                    > ethnicity".
                    >
                    > I think that one of orthodoxy's ways to be universal is indeed to
                    > have in principle one autocephalic orthodox Church per nation.

                    Certainly (in my opinion, at least) the situation of Orthodox
                    Christianity in North America is one we might call suboptimal. I have
                    noticed ethnicism elsewhere in these parts than just among Christians.
                    At one time I was in close touch with many Buddhists, and there tended
                    to be a drawing apart into various ethnic groups. But on the matter of
                    "one autocephalic orthodox Church per nation," please see below.

                    > "It is thus in the sense of "territorial" Churches that we must
                    > understand the notion of "autocephalic Churches". Every orthodox
                    > nation and every time lives according to its particular collective
                    > personality - Greek, Russian, Anglo-Saxon, Latin, African, medieval
                    > or modern, etc. - but this personal way of assuming the culture does
                    > not degenerate into a sense of identity or into a collective
                    > individualism.
                    >
                    > It does not generate either different "rites".

                    Very well, if we talk of Anglo-Saxon, Latin, and medieval among
                    other things, then perhaps Orthodox Christianity in North America
                    should be "Latin" rather than "Byzantine" (speaking generically for
                    lack of better terms). After all, the largest numbers of immigrants to
                    the United States have been (until recently, at least) British and
                    German from countries which were once Latin Orthodox. Perhaps Orthodox
                    Christians in the U.S.A. should celebrate the Liturgy of Saint Gregory
                    the Great instead of the Liturgies of Saint John Chrysostom and Saint
                    Basil and should use Gregorian or Ambrosian Chant, and all Orthodox
                    monastics here should follow the Rule of Saint Benedict. (If I ever
                    were to return to Orthodox Christianity, it certainly would not be due
                    to ROCOR's Russianness. For whatever it's worth, my ancestry is almost
                    entirely West European. Russian ethnicity *as*such* has no particular
                    meaning for me personally.)

                    > The existence of the ROCOR in the US is an exception that is related
                    > to the tragic historical events of the 20th century. She is intended
                    > to disappear when the reunion with the MP and the catacomb Church
                    > takes place. Her calling is to keep orthodoxy intact until she can
                    > return it to Russia, of which she is a part.

                    But if, in theory, North America should have its own autocephalic
                    church, which I have no reason to think should be any more Russian
                    than Greek or anything else than European Orthodox (for the most part),
                    then how does this special mission of ROCOR fit into the scheme?

                    --
                    Paul Bartlett
                    bartlett at smart.net
                    PGP key info in message headers
                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear Paul, You write: But if, in theory, North America should have its own autocephalic church, which I have no reason to think should be any more Russian
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 10, 2003
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                      Dear Paul,

                      You write:

                      "But if, in theory, North America should have its own autocephalic
                      church, which I have no reason to think should be any more Russian
                      than Greek or anything else than European Orthodox (for the most
                      part), then how does this special mission of ROCOR fit into the
                      scheme? "

                      My opinion is as follows:

                      In principle, the OCA claims to be the American autocephalous
                      orthodox Church in America. I suppose it is indeed really American.
                      The trouble is that it is not canonical, as it received its
                      autocephaly from the heretic-schismatic uncanonical MP.

                      The ROCOR fundamental mission is to be the Russian Church in exile,
                      while it is impossible for her to have her see in Moscow, and while
                      people in the emigration want to remain Russian (which for me is not
                      negotiable, whatever my place of residence, be it in France, the UK
                      or the US).

                      No American faithful is forced to be a member of the ROCOR, if there
                      are other orthodox Churches around. The fact is that they are not
                      that many. As a consequence, the ROCOR cannot escape her duty of
                      having to accomplish missionary work in North America, because of her
                      very presence on that territory (the same applies for other countries
                      where there are ROCOR parishes).

                      What we discuss is the way she should manage such a difficult
                      combination of missions and the necessity, for us, Russians, that she
                      remain Russian.

                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff

                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Paul O. BARTLETT"
                      <bartlett@s...> wrote:
                      > On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, vkozyreff wrote (excerpted for conciseness):
                      >
                      > > Dear Paul,
                      > >
                      > > You write:
                      > >
                      > > "Is not the Orthodox Church described as catholic, that is,
                      > > universal, in the Symbol of Faith? If so, it transcends any one
                      > > ethnicity".
                      > >
                      > > I think that one of orthodoxy's ways to be universal is indeed to
                      > > have in principle one autocephalic orthodox Church per nation.
                      >
                      > Certainly (in my opinion, at least) the situation of Orthodox
                      > Christianity in North America is one we might call suboptimal. I
                      have
                      > noticed ethnicism elsewhere in these parts than just among
                      Christians.
                      > At one time I was in close touch with many Buddhists, and there
                      tended
                      > to be a drawing apart into various ethnic groups. But on the
                      matter of
                      > "one autocephalic orthodox Church per nation," please see below.
                      >
                      > > "It is thus in the sense of "territorial" Churches that we must
                      > > understand the notion of "autocephalic Churches". Every orthodox
                      > > nation and every time lives according to its particular
                      collective
                      > > personality - Greek, Russian, Anglo-Saxon, Latin, African,
                      medieval
                      > > or modern, etc. - but this personal way of assuming the culture
                      does
                      > > not degenerate into a sense of identity or into a collective
                      > > individualism.
                      > >
                      > > It does not generate either different "rites".
                      >
                      > Very well, if we talk of Anglo-Saxon, Latin, and medieval among
                      > other things, then perhaps Orthodox Christianity in North America
                      > should be "Latin" rather than "Byzantine" (speaking generically for
                      > lack of better terms). After all, the largest numbers of
                      immigrants to
                      > the United States have been (until recently, at least) British and
                      > German from countries which were once Latin Orthodox. Perhaps
                      Orthodox
                      > Christians in the U.S.A. should celebrate the Liturgy of Saint
                      Gregory
                      > the Great instead of the Liturgies of Saint John Chrysostom and
                      Saint
                      > Basil and should use Gregorian or Ambrosian Chant, and all Orthodox
                      > monastics here should follow the Rule of Saint Benedict. (If I ever
                      > were to return to Orthodox Christianity, it certainly would not be
                      due
                      > to ROCOR's Russianness. For whatever it's worth, my ancestry is
                      almost
                      > entirely West European. Russian ethnicity *as*such* has no
                      particular
                      > meaning for me personally.)
                      >
                      > > The existence of the ROCOR in the US is an exception that is
                      related
                      > > to the tragic historical events of the 20th century. She is
                      intended
                      > > to disappear when the reunion with the MP and the catacomb Church
                      > > takes place. Her calling is to keep orthodoxy intact until she
                      can
                      > > return it to Russia, of which she is a part.
                      >
                      > But if, in theory, North America should have its own
                      autocephalic
                      > church, which I have no reason to think should be any more Russian
                      > than Greek or anything else than European Orthodox (for the most
                      part),
                      > then how does this special mission of ROCOR fit into the scheme?
                      >
                      > --
                      > Paul Bartlett
                      > bartlett at smart.net
                      > PGP key info in message headers
                    • boulia_1
                      ... Dear Joshua, To reply: for me, personally, I am referring to the services, and anything that is part of that: the usage of Church Slavonic (a beautiful
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 10, 2003
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                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "P. Joshua Hatala"
                        <Josh_providence@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Just curious. When you say "keeping the 'Russian' in
                        > the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad" what particular
                        > quality of "Russian" are you referring to? The way the
                        > liturgy is conducted? Vestments? Focus on particular
                        > Russian saints? etc. or are you referring to the
                        > actual ethnic make-up of the jurisdiction's members?
                        >
                        Dear Joshua,

                        To reply: for me, personally, I am referring to the services, and
                        anything that is part of that: the usage of Church Slavonic (a
                        beautiful language worth studying), the music, the vestments and
                        iconography, and, yes, the special veneration of certain Russian
                        saints that are close to the hearts of Russians (a fool-for-Christ is
                        not a high-ranking saint, but I am glad ROCOR takes care to specially
                        commemorate Blessed Ksenia of St. Petersburg, for example)... I
                        did not mean the ethnicity of the members.

                        However, I do think the latter is influenced by the former. If ROCOR
                        became less "Russian" (served only in English, for example), most new
                        Russian emigres would not go to ROCOR churches. They would look for a
                        church that sounds and looks "Russian". Conversely, I have heard some
                        non-Russians not only express frustration at a language barrier, but
                        say that they feel a lack of English usage in church is an active act
                        of exclusion toward them. Naturally, one would expect people who feel
                        this way not to hang around a church that doesn't accomodate their
                        need for English for very long.

                        In my opinion, that's an issue that every parish/area has to (and
                        does as far as I can tell) deal with itself, depending on its
                        community. In cities where there are large influxes of Russian
                        immigrants, I think it is important for ROCOR to "stay Russian," as
                        those people really need us. For example, Fr. George Kallaur has been
                        doing wonderful work developing a parish in Brooklyn, where there are
                        thousands, maybe more than a million, relatively recent Russian
                        transplants. It began as a mission within the last year or two and is
                        already a full-blown and growing parish. But, in the state of ...
                        Tennesee (as a random example that I know nothing about) maybe there's
                        not much of a Russian population (though Russians seem to be
                        everywhere these days!). In places where there are sizable
                        populations of both Russians and non-Russians, it's an issue that
                        needs to be dealt with; I know that it can get sticky.

                        I hope that answers your question.

                        --Elizabeth
                      • Paul O. BARTLETT
                        ... A few months ago I attended Divine Liturgy at an OCA parish not too far from me. It was a little queasy around the edges, in my opinion (going from
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 10, 2003
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                          On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, vkozyreff wrote (excerpted):

                          > In principle, the OCA claims to be the American autocephalous
                          > orthodox Church in America. I suppose it is indeed really American.
                          > The trouble is that it is not canonical, as it received its
                          > autocephaly from the heretic-schismatic uncanonical MP.

                          A few months ago I attended Divine Liturgy at an OCA parish not too
                          far from me. It was a little "queasy" around the edges, in my opinion
                          (going from memory of years long gone by), and I have wondered about
                          their canonical status. Indeed, from what little I have been able to
                          tell, not being a canonist, I would say that the canonical status of
                          most (I do not say all) non-ROCOR jurisdictions might be a little
                          questionable. My question was (and still would be) not "Are they
                          Russian?" but "Are they truly Orthodox?".

                          > No American faithful is forced to be a member of the ROCOR, if there
                          > are other orthodox Churches around. The fact is that they are not
                          > that many.

                          What other truly and canonically Orthodox churches are around
                          (serious question)?

                          > As a consequence, the ROCOR cannot escape her duty of
                          > having to accomplish missionary work in North America, because of her
                          > very presence on that territory (the same applies for other countries
                          > where there are ROCOR parishes).
                          >
                          > What we discuss is the way she should manage such a difficult
                          > combination of missions and the necessity, for us, Russians, that she
                          > remain Russian.

                          And, for us non-Russophile non-Russians, Russian ethnicity and
                          distinctively Russian usages have no more significance than any other
                          ethnicity and distinctive usages. If there were a canonical and truly
                          Orthodox (please note) "west European" Orthodox parish near me, there
                          might be more attraction for myself and others like me. One might
                          argue that attractees should be willing to forego some of their own
                          traditions in order to find true Orthodoxy, western or not. Fair
                          enough. But by the same token, others should be willing to forego some
                          of their own ethnic traditions for true Orthodoxy, Russian or not. If
                          non-Russians might be expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and
                          canonical Russian parish they have access to, might not Russians be
                          expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and canonical "western"
                          parish if it is all they have access to? What it comes down to for
                          someone like me, the Russianness of ROCOR has no more particular
                          meaning than the Greekness of HOCNA or the Rumanianness of OCA's
                          Rumanian episcopate or any other.

                          I readily admit that there does seem to be a balancing act
                          involved.

                          --
                          Regards to all.
                          Paul Bartlett
                          bartlett at smart.net
                          PGP key info in message headers
                        • Joachim Wertz
                          One should not forget that Orthodoxy is more than a religion, it is a way of life. That way of life is conveyed by both big and small T traditions. It does not
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 11, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            One should not forget that Orthodoxy is more than a religion, it is a way of
                            life. That way of life is conveyed by both big and small T traditions. It
                            does not fully transmit itself when a group of people profess and just agree
                            to the same articles of faith and way of worship, and of course are properly
                            received into the Church. That is the beginning. Orthodoxy must be nurtured
                            by Holy Tradition and by "tradition(s)" which might, unfortunately for some,
                            be considered ethnic in character. These "traditions" are models for a way
                            of life and contain, often not obvious, connotations and nuances important
                            for living an Orthodox life. An Orthodox manner of life does not develop in
                            a vacuum. As Christianity/Orthodoxy spread and developed, it acquired
                            cultural characteristics, and these are and must be transmittable. The early
                            Christians were spiritually formed in an environment where they inherited
                            both Semitic and Hellenistic cultural traditions. When the Slavs and the
                            Russians were converted they did likewise. I have never been challenged by
                            the ethnic character of any Orthodox Church. I have had experience with most
                            "ethnic" Churches. It is my opinion that I have gleaned the best from these
                            various traditions, and that includes their customs and ethnic "traditions",
                            as well as their Orthodox CULTURES. Of course one may at first glance see
                            nothing necessarily Orthodox in souvlaki, a lamb or big roast, or kasha and
                            borscht; or in Balkan folk dancing. But inquire! There is a lot of Orthodox
                            history and culture behind these customs. A lot to learn. By inquiring you
                            may very well remind the "cradle Orthodox" of some of these meanings.

                            In Christ,

                            Joachim Wertz


                            From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
                            Organization: SmartNet Private Account
                            Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:11:51 -0500 (EST)
                            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Americano-Russian orthodox etiquette, the
                            past and and the future


                            On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, vkozyreff wrote (excerpted):

                            > In principle, the OCA claims to be the American autocephalous
                            > orthodox Church in America. I suppose it is indeed really American.
                            > The trouble is that it is not canonical, as it received its
                            > autocephaly from the heretic-schismatic uncanonical MP.

                            A few months ago I attended Divine Liturgy at an OCA parish not too
                            far from me. It was a little "queasy" around the edges, in my opinion
                            (going from memory of years long gone by), and I have wondered about
                            their canonical status. Indeed, from what little I have been able to
                            tell, not being a canonist, I would say that the canonical status of
                            most (I do not say all) non-ROCOR jurisdictions might be a little
                            questionable. My question was (and still would be) not "Are they
                            Russian?" but "Are they truly Orthodox?".

                            > No American faithful is forced to be a member of the ROCOR, if there
                            > are other orthodox Churches around. The fact is that they are not
                            > that many.

                            What other truly and canonically Orthodox churches are around
                            (serious question)?

                            > As a consequence, the ROCOR cannot escape her duty of
                            > having to accomplish missionary work in North America, because of her
                            > very presence on that territory (the same applies for other countries
                            > where there are ROCOR parishes).
                            >
                            > What we discuss is the way she should manage such a difficult
                            > combination of missions and the necessity, for us, Russians, that she
                            > remain Russian.

                            And, for us non-Russophile non-Russians, Russian ethnicity and
                            distinctively Russian usages have no more significance than any other
                            ethnicity and distinctive usages. If there were a canonical and truly
                            Orthodox (please note) "west European" Orthodox parish near me, there
                            might be more attraction for myself and others like me. One might
                            argue that attractees should be willing to forego some of their own
                            traditions in order to find true Orthodoxy, western or not. Fair
                            enough. But by the same token, others should be willing to forego some
                            of their own ethnic traditions for true Orthodoxy, Russian or not. If
                            non-Russians might be expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and
                            canonical Russian parish they have access to, might not Russians be
                            expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and canonical "western"
                            parish if it is all they have access to? What it comes down to for
                            someone like me, the Russianness of ROCOR has no more particular
                            meaning than the Greekness of HOCNA or the Rumanianness of OCA's
                            Rumanian episcopate or any other.

                            I readily admit that there does seem to be a balancing act
                            involved.

                            --
                            Regards to all.
                            Paul Bartlett
                            bartlett at smart.net
                            PGP key info in message headers



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                          • Kiril Bart
                            And it s the same behind that faceless modern American Orthodoxy , if you will look deep you ll see an Protestan traditions as well. An idea of some kind of
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 11, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              And it's the same behind that faceless "modern American Orthodoxy", if you will look deep you'll see an Protestan traditions as well. An idea of some kind of absolutely traditionless Church has no merrit.
                              Subdeacon Kirill
                              Joachim Wertz <wertz@...> wrote:One should not forget that Orthodoxy is more than a religion, it is a way of
                              life. That way of life is conveyed by both big and small T traditions. It
                              does not fully transmit itself when a group of people profess and just agree
                              to the same articles of faith and way of worship, and of course are properly
                              received into the Church. That is the beginning. Orthodoxy must be nurtured
                              by Holy Tradition and by "tradition(s)" which might, unfortunately for some,
                              be considered ethnic in character. These "traditions" are models for a way
                              of life and contain, often not obvious, connotations and nuances important
                              for living an Orthodox life. An Orthodox manner of life does not develop in
                              a vacuum. As Christianity/Orthodoxy spread and developed, it acquired
                              cultural characteristics, and these are and must be transmittable. The early
                              Christians were spiritually formed in an environment where they inherited
                              both Semitic and Hellenistic cultural traditions. When the Slavs and the
                              Russians were converted they did likewise. I have never been challenged by
                              the ethnic character of any Orthodox Church. I have had experience with most
                              "ethnic" Churches. It is my opinion that I have gleaned the best from these
                              various traditions, and that includes their customs and ethnic "traditions",
                              as well as their Orthodox CULTURES. Of course one may at first glance see
                              nothing necessarily Orthodox in souvlaki, a lamb or big roast, or kasha and
                              borscht; or in Balkan folk dancing. But inquire! There is a lot of Orthodox
                              history and culture behind these customs. A lot to learn. By inquiring you
                              may very well remind the "cradle Orthodox" of some of these meanings.

                              In Christ,

                              Joachim Wertz


                              From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
                              Organization: SmartNet Private Account
                              Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:11:51 -0500 (EST)
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Americano-Russian orthodox etiquette, the
                              past and and the future


                              On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, vkozyreff wrote (excerpted):

                              > In principle, the OCA claims to be the American autocephalous
                              > orthodox Church in America. I suppose it is indeed really American.
                              > The trouble is that it is not canonical, as it received its
                              > autocephaly from the heretic-schismatic uncanonical MP.

                              A few months ago I attended Divine Liturgy at an OCA parish not too
                              far from me. It was a little "queasy" around the edges, in my opinion
                              (going from memory of years long gone by), and I have wondered about
                              their canonical status. Indeed, from what little I have been able to
                              tell, not being a canonist, I would say that the canonical status of
                              most (I do not say all) non-ROCOR jurisdictions might be a little
                              questionable. My question was (and still would be) not "Are they
                              Russian?" but "Are they truly Orthodox?".

                              > No American faithful is forced to be a member of the ROCOR, if there
                              > are other orthodox Churches around. The fact is that they are not
                              > that many.

                              What other truly and canonically Orthodox churches are around
                              (serious question)?

                              > As a consequence, the ROCOR cannot escape her duty of
                              > having to accomplish missionary work in North America, because of her
                              > very presence on that territory (the same applies for other countries
                              > where there are ROCOR parishes).
                              >
                              > What we discuss is the way she should manage such a difficult
                              > combination of missions and the necessity, for us, Russians, that she
                              > remain Russian.

                              And, for us non-Russophile non-Russians, Russian ethnicity and
                              distinctively Russian usages have no more significance than any other
                              ethnicity and distinctive usages. If there were a canonical and truly
                              Orthodox (please note) "west European" Orthodox parish near me, there
                              might be more attraction for myself and others like me. One might
                              argue that attractees should be willing to forego some of their own
                              traditions in order to find true Orthodoxy, western or not. Fair
                              enough. But by the same token, others should be willing to forego some
                              of their own ethnic traditions for true Orthodoxy, Russian or not. If
                              non-Russians might be expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and
                              canonical Russian parish they have access to, might not Russians be
                              expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and canonical "western"
                              parish if it is all they have access to? What it comes down to for
                              someone like me, the Russianness of ROCOR has no more particular
                              meaning than the Greekness of HOCNA or the Rumanianness of OCA's
                              Rumanian episcopate or any other.

                              I readily admit that there does seem to be a balancing act
                              involved.

                              --
                              Regards to all.
                              Paul Bartlett
                              bartlett at smart.net
                              PGP key info in message headers



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                            • boulia_1
                              ... wrote: Of course one may at first glance see ... kasha and ... Orthodox ... inquiring you ... meanings. ... The foods and dances often, in fact, pre-date
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 12, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Joachim Wertz <wertz@p...>
                                wrote:
                                Of course one may at first
                                glance see
                                > nothing necessarily Orthodox in souvlaki, a lamb or big roast, or
                                kasha and
                                > borscht; or in Balkan folk dancing. But inquire! There is a lot of
                                Orthodox
                                > history and culture behind these customs. A lot to learn. By
                                inquiring you
                                > may very well remind the "cradle Orthodox" of some of these
                                meanings.
                                >

                                The foods and dances often, in fact, pre-date Christianity, but
                                Orthodoxy has been very good at taking local custom and adapting it
                                to fit Church life: Blini, said to be a Pagan symbol of the sun
                                devoured at the Pagan spring equinox rites, adapted to Church life as
                                a last fling with butter before Great Lent. The Serbian "slava" is
                                wholly adopted from customary family worship of Pagan gods: instead of
                                a family favorite "god" or idol, Serbs now venerate Orthodox saints,
                                and pray, and bless their house. But then they still have a big party
                                with lots of slivoviz! taking the familiar and adapting it to
                                make Orthodoxy made sense to a people is an effective way to
                                spread the faith: even Saint Patrick used the ubiquitous shamrock to
                                make sense of the Trinity to the Celts.

                                But, Joachim, it's funny how, during the first week of Lent, so many
                                of your examples are very MEATY (roast, souvlaki, borscht...!!) :-)

                                Best wishes for an edifying fast,
                                Elizabeth
                              • Joachim Wertz
                                Dear Elizabeth, I guess my timing is bad, but these are the kind of things people usually refer to when claiming that some Orthodox Churches are too ethnic .
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 12, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Elizabeth,

                                  I guess my timing is bad, but these are the kind of things people usually
                                  refer to when claiming that some Orthodox Churches are too "ethnic". By the
                                  way, borscht needn't be "meaty"! It is a food "concept" with endless
                                  variations.

                                  In Christ,

                                  Joachim

                                  From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                                  Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 12:23:37 -0000
                                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Americano-Russian orthodox etiquette, the past
                                  and and the future


                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Joachim Wertz <wertz@p...>
                                  wrote:
                                  Of course one may at first
                                  glance see
                                  > nothing necessarily Orthodox in souvlaki, a lamb or big roast, or
                                  kasha and
                                  > borscht; or in Balkan folk dancing. But inquire! There is a lot of
                                  Orthodox
                                  > history and culture behind these customs. A lot to learn. By
                                  inquiring you
                                  > may very well remind the "cradle Orthodox" of some of these
                                  meanings.
                                  >

                                  The foods and dances often, in fact, pre-date Christianity, but
                                  Orthodoxy has been very good at taking local custom and adapting it
                                  to fit Church life: Blini, said to be a Pagan symbol of the sun
                                  devoured at the Pagan spring equinox rites, adapted to Church life as
                                  a last fling with butter before Great Lent. The Serbian "slava" is
                                  wholly adopted from customary family worship of Pagan gods: instead of
                                  a family favorite "god" or idol, Serbs now venerate Orthodox saints,
                                  and pray, and bless their house. But then they still have a big party
                                  with lots of slivoviz! taking the familiar and adapting it to
                                  make Orthodoxy made sense to a people is an effective way to
                                  spread the faith: even Saint Patrick used the ubiquitous shamrock to
                                  make sense of the Trinity to the Celts.

                                  But, Joachim, it's funny how, during the first week of Lent, so many
                                  of your examples are very MEATY (roast, souvlaki, borscht...!!) :-)

                                  Best wishes for an edifying fast,
                                  Elizabeth



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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • larry most
                                  GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Kiril, I too have had experience with ethnic parishes and, like you have had a good experience.BUT we did
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 12, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                    Dear Kiril,
                                    I too have had experience with "ethnic" parishes and, like you have had a good experience.BUT we did all of the ethnic things in a language that I can understand. I don't see where, just because a parish uses English, that it has to drop all to the ethnic things being done, wheather it is Russian, Aribic, Greek or anything else.
                                    Love in Christ,
                                    Sub-deacon Lawrence
                                    Kiril Bart <kirbart@...> wrote:
                                    And it's the same behind that faceless "modern American Orthodoxy", if you will look deep you'll see an Protestan traditions as well. An idea of some kind of absolutely traditionless Church has no merrit.
                                    Subdeacon Kirill
                                    Joachim Wertz <wertz@...> wrote:One should not forget that Orthodoxy is more than a religion, it is a way of
                                    life. That way of life is conveyed by both big and small T traditions. It
                                    does not fully transmit itself when a group of people profess and just agree
                                    to the same articles of faith and way of worship, and of course are properly
                                    received into the Church. That is the beginning. Orthodoxy must be nurtured
                                    by Holy Tradition and by "tradition(s)" which might, unfortunately for some,
                                    be considered ethnic in character. These "traditions" are models for a way
                                    of life and contain, often not obvious, connotations and nuances important
                                    for living an Orthodox life. An Orthodox manner of life does not develop in
                                    a vacuum. As Christianity/Orthodoxy spread and developed, it acquired
                                    cultural characteristics, and these are and must be transmittable. The early
                                    Christians were spiritually formed in an environment where they inherited
                                    both Semitic and Hellenistic cultural traditions. When the Slavs and the
                                    Russians were converted they did likewise. I have never been challenged by
                                    the ethnic character of any Orthodox Church. I have had experience with most
                                    "ethnic" Churches. It is my opinion that I have gleaned the best from these
                                    various traditions, and that includes their customs and ethnic "traditions",
                                    as well as their Orthodox CULTURES. Of course one may at first glance see
                                    nothing necessarily Orthodox in souvlaki, a lamb or big roast, or kasha and
                                    borscht; or in Balkan folk dancing. But inquire! There is a lot of Orthodox
                                    history and culture behind these customs. A lot to learn. By inquiring you
                                    may very well remind the "cradle Orthodox" of some of these meanings.

                                    In Christ,

                                    Joachim Wertz


                                    From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
                                    Organization: SmartNet Private Account
                                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:11:51 -0500 (EST)
                                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Americano-Russian orthodox etiquette, the
                                    past and and the future


                                    On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, vkozyreff wrote (excerpted):

                                    > In principle, the OCA claims to be the American autocephalous
                                    > orthodox Church in America. I suppose it is indeed really American.
                                    > The trouble is that it is not canonical, as it received its
                                    > autocephaly from the heretic-schismatic uncanonical MP.

                                    A few months ago I attended Divine Liturgy at an OCA parish not too
                                    far from me. It was a little "queasy" around the edges, in my opinion
                                    (going from memory of years long gone by), and I have wondered about
                                    their canonical status. Indeed, from what little I have been able to
                                    tell, not being a canonist, I would say that the canonical status of
                                    most (I do not say all) non-ROCOR jurisdictions might be a little
                                    questionable. My question was (and still would be) not "Are they
                                    Russian?" but "Are they truly Orthodox?".

                                    > No American faithful is forced to be a member of the ROCOR, if there
                                    > are other orthodox Churches around. The fact is that they are not
                                    > that many.

                                    What other truly and canonically Orthodox churches are around
                                    (serious question)?

                                    > As a consequence, the ROCOR cannot escape her duty of
                                    > having to accomplish missionary work in North America, because of her
                                    > very presence on that territory (the same applies for other countries
                                    > where there are ROCOR parishes).
                                    >
                                    > What we discuss is the way she should manage such a difficult
                                    > combination of missions and the necessity, for us, Russians, that she
                                    > remain Russian.

                                    And, for us non-Russophile non-Russians, Russian ethnicity and
                                    distinctively Russian usages have no more significance than any other
                                    ethnicity and distinctive usages. If there were a canonical and truly
                                    Orthodox (please note) "west European" Orthodox parish near me, there
                                    might be more attraction for myself and others like me. One might
                                    argue that attractees should be willing to forego some of their own
                                    traditions in order to find true Orthodoxy, western or not. Fair
                                    enough. But by the same token, others should be willing to forego some
                                    of their own ethnic traditions for true Orthodoxy, Russian or not. If
                                    non-Russians might be expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and
                                    canonical Russian parish they have access to, might not Russians be
                                    expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and canonical "western"
                                    parish if it is all they have access to? What it comes down to for
                                    someone like me, the Russianness of ROCOR has no more particular
                                    meaning than the Greekness of HOCNA or the Rumanianness of OCA's
                                    Rumanian episcopate or any other.

                                    I readily admit that there does seem to be a balancing act
                                    involved.

                                    --
                                    Regards to all.
                                    Paul Bartlett
                                    bartlett at smart.net
                                    PGP key info in message headers



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                                  • vkozyreff
                                    Dear List, I read: I too have had experience with ethnic parishes . Seen from outside the US, the discussion shows, in my opinion, an interesting American
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 12, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear List,

                                      I read: "I too have had experience with "ethnic" parishes".

                                      Seen from outside the US, the discussion shows, in my opinion, an
                                      interesting American ethnic character.

                                      The Americans distinguish between "ethnic cultures" and the "non
                                      ethnic culture", the assumption being that "ethnic" is primitive and
                                      tolerated while "non-ethnic" is normal, modern and politically
                                      correct. (This being said, do not forget that orthodoxy is neither
                                      modern nor politically correct).

                                      What the US public calls "non ethnic" is in fact "US-ethnic". No
                                      person is non ethnic. Usually, one perceives one's own "ethnic
                                      culture" as familiar (rodnoy), maternal, reassuring, warm, beautiful,
                                      desired, etc. while other cultures are perceived as foreign
                                      (chuzhie), however interesting or refined they may be.

                                      Today, I saw in my office a Russian from our first emigration who is
                                      working in Central Asia. His last name is German, as is the case of
                                      so many faithful sons of Russia and his family is originally from the
                                      Netherlands. He was born in France. He told me how well he felt when
                                      he heard my name, heard the Russian language and saw pictures of
                                      Terskie Cossacks on my wall. Few people more than Russians love so
                                      much to be with their compatriots, or hear their language when they
                                      are abroad.

                                      When I am in the US, I feel everyday the omnipresent and loud US
                                      ethnic culture ("non-ethnic"). It takes me lots of energy and love to
                                      manage it and to adapt to it. The American orthodox who want our
                                      Church to be "non-ethnic" want her simply to be "US-ethnic" and do
                                      not understand that she happens to be Russian.

                                      The Russians claim that they have one of the most hospitable cultures
                                      and traditions among all peoples that God has created. I had a
                                      technician in my laboratory who had fought in Russia with the
                                      SS "Légion Wallonie". He had been taken prisoner and had remained 10
                                      years in captivity. When he came back, however incredible, he loved
                                      profoundly Russia and the Russians. His walls were covered with
                                      pictures of the country to which he had come as an invader and who
                                      had shown so much warmth and pardon to her former enemy, in spite of
                                      the poverty and hardship.

                                      Cultures have always communicated with one another. Historically, the
                                      communication was the most fruitful and harmonious when the cultures
                                      were marked and assertive. When my daughter was in Turkey a couple of
                                      years ago, a local girl came smiling to her. She had noticed my
                                      daughter's orthodox cross, the way she was dressed and how she
                                      behaved with the company. She told my daughter that she liked the
                                      orthodox so much more than the ordinary Western tourists because of
                                      the way the orthodox behave. Is it not interesting, that friendliness
                                      from a Moslem girl to an orthodox?

                                      Welcome to the ethnic Americans among us. God bless America (and
                                      forbid it to unleash the war).

                                      In God,

                                      Vladimir Kozyreff

                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
                                      <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                                      > Dear Kiril,
                                      > I too have had experience with "ethnic" parishes and, like you have
                                      had a good experience.BUT we did all of the ethnic things in a
                                      language that I can understand. I don't see where, just because a
                                      parish uses English, that it has to drop all to the ethnic things
                                      being done, wheather it is Russian, Aribic, Greek or anything else.
                                      > Love in Christ,
                                      > Sub-deacon Lawrence
                                      > Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                                      > And it's the same behind that faceless "modern American Orthodoxy",
                                      if you will look deep you'll see an Protestan traditions as well. An
                                      idea of some kind of absolutely traditionless Church has no merrit.
                                      > Subdeacon Kirill
                                      > Joachim Wertz <wertz@p...> wrote:One should not forget that
                                      Orthodoxy is more than a religion, it is a way of
                                      > life. That way of life is conveyed by both big and small T
                                      traditions. It
                                      > does not fully transmit itself when a group of people profess and
                                      just agree
                                      > to the same articles of faith and way of worship, and of course are
                                      properly
                                      > received into the Church. That is the beginning. Orthodoxy must be
                                      nurtured
                                      > by Holy Tradition and by "tradition(s)" which might, unfortunately
                                      for some,
                                      > be considered ethnic in character. These "traditions" are models
                                      for a way
                                      > of life and contain, often not obvious, connotations and nuances
                                      important
                                      > for living an Orthodox life. An Orthodox manner of life does not
                                      develop in
                                      > a vacuum. As Christianity/Orthodoxy spread and developed, it
                                      acquired
                                      > cultural characteristics, and these are and must be transmittable.
                                      The early
                                      > Christians were spiritually formed in an environment where they
                                      inherited
                                      > both Semitic and Hellenistic cultural traditions. When the Slavs
                                      and the
                                      > Russians were converted they did likewise. I have never been
                                      challenged by
                                      > the ethnic character of any Orthodox Church. I have had experience
                                      with most
                                      > "ethnic" Churches. It is my opinion that I have gleaned the best
                                      from these
                                      > various traditions, and that includes their customs and
                                      ethnic "traditions",
                                      > as well as their Orthodox CULTURES. Of course one may at first
                                      glance see
                                      > nothing necessarily Orthodox in souvlaki, a lamb or big roast, or
                                      kasha and
                                      > borscht; or in Balkan folk dancing. But inquire! There is a lot of
                                      Orthodox
                                      > history and culture behind these customs. A lot to learn. By
                                      inquiring you
                                      > may very well remind the "cradle Orthodox" of some of these
                                      meanings.
                                      >
                                      > In Christ,
                                      >
                                      > Joachim Wertz
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@s...>
                                      > Organization: SmartNet Private Account
                                      > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:11:51 -0500 (EST)
                                      > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Americano-Russian orthodox
                                      etiquette, the
                                      > past and and the future
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, vkozyreff wrote (excerpted):
                                      >
                                      > > In principle, the OCA claims to be the American autocephalous
                                      > > orthodox Church in America. I suppose it is indeed really
                                      American.
                                      > > The trouble is that it is not canonical, as it received its
                                      > > autocephaly from the heretic-schismatic uncanonical MP.
                                      >
                                      > A few months ago I attended Divine Liturgy at an OCA parish not
                                      too
                                      > far from me. It was a little "queasy" around the edges, in my
                                      opinion
                                      > (going from memory of years long gone by), and I have wondered about
                                      > their canonical status. Indeed, from what little I have been able
                                      to
                                      > tell, not being a canonist, I would say that the canonical status of
                                      > most (I do not say all) non-ROCOR jurisdictions might be a little
                                      > questionable. My question was (and still would be) not "Are they
                                      > Russian?" but "Are they truly Orthodox?".
                                      >
                                      > > No American faithful is forced to be a member of the ROCOR, if
                                      there
                                      > > are other orthodox Churches around. The fact is that they are not
                                      > > that many.
                                      >
                                      > What other truly and canonically Orthodox churches are around
                                      > (serious question)?
                                      >
                                      > > As a consequence, the ROCOR cannot escape her duty of
                                      > > having to accomplish missionary work in North America, because of
                                      her
                                      > > very presence on that territory (the same applies for other
                                      countries
                                      > > where there are ROCOR parishes).
                                      > >
                                      > > What we discuss is the way she should manage such a difficult
                                      > > combination of missions and the necessity, for us, Russians, that
                                      she
                                      > > remain Russian.
                                      >
                                      > And, for us non-Russophile non-Russians, Russian ethnicity and
                                      > distinctively Russian usages have no more significance than any
                                      other
                                      > ethnicity and distinctive usages. If there were a canonical and
                                      truly
                                      > Orthodox (please note) "west European" Orthodox parish near me,
                                      there
                                      > might be more attraction for myself and others like me. One might
                                      > argue that attractees should be willing to forego some of their own
                                      > traditions in order to find true Orthodoxy, western or not. Fair
                                      > enough. But by the same token, others should be willing to forego
                                      some
                                      > of their own ethnic traditions for true Orthodoxy, Russian or not.
                                      If
                                      > non-Russians might be expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and
                                      > canonical Russian parish they have access to, might not Russians be
                                      > expected to attend whatever truly Orthodox and canonical "western"
                                      > parish if it is all they have access to? What it comes down to for
                                      > someone like me, the Russianness of ROCOR has no more particular
                                      > meaning than the Greekness of HOCNA or the Rumanianness of OCA's
                                      > Rumanian episcopate or any other.
                                      >
                                      > I readily admit that there does seem to be a balancing act
                                      > involved.
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Regards to all.
                                      > Paul Bartlett
                                      > bartlett at smart.net
                                      > PGP key info in message headers
                                      >
                                      >
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