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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things

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  • for4z@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily dictate or ascribe
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 8, 2003
      In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
      eledkovsky@... writes:


      > Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
      > and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
      > high-ranking clergy!
      >

      Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily
      dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field. Our church
      is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures. This list is not
      about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone else with
      a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or explanation.
      I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to question, to
      be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these exercises help
      us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in evaluating
      history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of education;
      the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love. This
      list is meant to allow all of us "low ranking clergy and non clergy members"
      to express our thoughts, our concerns, and our heartaches. Not all of us are
      professors, not all of us are saints. Contributors to this list should not
      be put down or discourgaged from doing so....

      -Nick Zaharov


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • boulia_1
      ... necesarily ... EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to point out is
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
        Nick Zaharov wrote:
        >
        > Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not
        necesarily
        > dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field.


        EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not
        *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to
        point out is that, all too often on this list, someone
        (sometimes signing off as "subdeacon" or "reader") posts some
        know-it-all comment directed at one of our Archpriests in a haughty
        manner that implies an opinion that he is opening a revelation to that
        Archpriest. Sometimes this disresepectful attitude may not be
        intentional, but, often, it seems to be.

        As an aside, until I started reading this list, I never heard of
        subdeacons and readers going around referring to themselves that way.
        No one I know in the Synod HQ, for example, goes around calling George
        Schatiloff (the senior subdeacon there, subdeacon to Metr. Philaret,
        so, wearing the orar for at least 25 years) "Subdeacon George" (in
        English or Russian) nor can I imagine him EVER signing his name that
        way. The way I always understood it, these ranks were only formally
        used in ecclesiastical documents (ukaze, gramata, that sort of
        thing). Only upper clergy (Deacons or higher) were addressed in a
        manner that acknowledged their position. So, it seems odd to me, this
        fashion -- somewhat in line with some of the cross-cultural etiquette
        that Mr. Kozyreff wrote about quite intelligently a few posts earlier.

        NZ wrote further:
        > Our church
        > is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures.

        EAL responds: Who said anything about infallability or assigned 'cult'
        status to anyone?

        NZ continued:
        >This list is
        not
        > about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone
        >else with
        > a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or
        >explanation.
        > I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to
        question, to
        > be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these
        exercises help
        > us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in
        evaluating
        > history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of
        education;
        > the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love.

        EAL agrees wholeheartedly. For better (but often for worse), this
        medium is a communication tool. But it is one which is easily abused,
        allowing for carelessness that few would dare allow in face-to-face
        discussions. I object to displays of disrespect. And I especially
        object to displays of disrespect toward clergy. Agree or disagree with
        the person, but one must always show love and regard for their "san"
        (sorry I don't know the best translation for this word)! We do not
        assign cult status to ranks, but we do respect ranks in Orthodoxy.

        Hence, I find it embarassing when it seems not to matter to some
        people that thet addressing a senior clergy member rudely. How can
        it not matter that these are men who not only gave many years of their
        lives over to study of the Scriptures, holy Fathers, church Tradition
        (I speak now of those clergy members who attended seminary), but also
        have spent years tending their flocks, caring for people? How many of
        us 'lower' and 'non-clergy' people have made that kind of
        whole life commitment to God, people and the Church?

        Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
        Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
        met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
        whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
        experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
        they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
        presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
        how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
        administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
        secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
        to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!

        That is not to say that Priests (these or any) and Bishops can't be
        wrong, and they can't be questioned. NOT at all. They are MEN and
        they make mistakes. But question them with respect, please, and with
        "brotherly love"!

        I did not mean to discourage anyone's expression of concerns or
        heartaches. But I do believe such expressions should be made in a
        manner decorous and becoming to an Orthodox Christian, without virtual
        sneers.

        With that thought, it being Forgiveness Sunday, I ask the forgiveness
        of all and do sincerely wish each person an edifying Great Lent.

        In Christ's love,
        Elizabeth
      • Michael Nikitin
        Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have met but do not know
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
          "Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
          Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
          met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
          whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
          experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
          they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
          presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
          how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
          administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
          secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
          to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!"

          Clergy with large parishes get paid well. On top of that some receive
          bording for free. They also get paid for Baptisms, marriages and burials.
          And their lifes are as comfy if not more comfortable than some of ours.

          There are clergy with small parishes that cannot sustain them. These clergy
          have to work,serve,do baptisms,marriages and burials and not get paid. Their
          lifes are not so comfortable, especially if they have children.
          These clergy don't post on the lists. They are too busy helping their
          parishioners spiritually.

          Just as laypeople, clergy should also not address laypeople with sarcasm or
          ill will.

          I ask forgiveness and wish everyone a spiritually growing lent.

          Michael N.

          From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things
          Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:36:37 -0000



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        • sergerust2002
          S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST ! TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: Who is Vethiy Den mi that we sing on the holiday of Meeting of our Lord I believe? Isn t it our Savior?
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 5 3:09 PM
            S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST !

            TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

            Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
            Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?
            (Michael Nikitine, post 7990, Mar 4, 2003)


            WE GOT 3 CONCORDING ANSWERS:

            He who is pictured is Christ, the "Ancient of Days",
            not God the Father.
            (Staphanos, post 7985, Mar 3, 2003)

            Our east wall includes, at its apex, Christ the Ancient of Days ...
            (fr James Baglien, post 7999, Mar 5, 2003)

            Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the
            stikhiras of the Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes
            in his hands the Ancient of Days..."
            (fr Alexander Lebedeff, post 8006, Mar 6, 2003)


            HERE IS A 4-TH ANSWER, OPPOSING THE PREVIOUS 3:

            « Now `tis time that our Discourse should celebrate God (Whose
            Names are many) as "Omnipotent" and "Ancient of Days." The former
            title is given Him because ... [about omnipotence] ... And "Ancient
            of Days" is a title given to God because He is the Eternity of all
            things and their Time and is anterior to Days and anterior to
            Eternity and Time. And the titles "Time", "Day", "Season",
            and "Eternity" must be applied to Him in a divine sense, to mean One
            Who is utterly incapable of all change and movement and, in His
            eternal motion, remains at rest ; and Who is the Cause whence
            Eternity, Time, and Days are derived. Wherefore in the Sacred
            Theophanies revealed in mystic Visions He is described as Ancient and
            yet as Young : the former title signifying that He is the Primal
            Being, existent from the Beginning through the entire process of the
            world onto the End. Or, as the divine Initiator [presumably
            Hierotheus] tells us, either term implies the Primal Being of God :
            the term "Ancient" signifying that He is First in point of Time, and
            the term "Young" that he possesses the Primacy in point of Number,
            since Unity and the properties of Unity have a primacy over the more
            advanced numbers ... [about time and eternity] ... And God we must
            celebrate as both Eternity and Time, as the Cause of all Time and
            Eternity and as the Ancient of Days ; as before Time and above Time
            and producing all the variety of times and seasons ; and again, as
            existing before Eternal Ages, in that He is before Eternity and above
            Eternity and His Kingdom is the Kingdom of all the Eternal Ages.
            Amen.» (St Dyonisius the Areopagite, The Divine Names, chapter 10)


            ANY HINT?

            SERGE RUST
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