Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things

Expand Messages
  • Joachim Wertz
    What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were seen by the
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
      where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
      seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
      Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
      times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
      appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
      Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
      at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
      awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in the
      cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
      Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
      by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?

      In Christ,

      Joachim Wertz

      From: antiquariu@...
      Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:55:28 EST
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
      things


      In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      mikeniki@... writes:


      > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
      > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
      > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
      > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
      > Father ?
      >

      Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should
      have
      paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
      later...

      Love,

      Vladimir Hindrichs


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

      Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
      ... I didn t see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr. Stefan something. But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
        >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
        >stick.

        I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
        Stefan something.

        But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
        so I replied to that postion of your post.




        >Answer my question, please?
        >
        >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
        >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

        Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
        Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

        However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
        depictions of God the Father in general.

        Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
        the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
        Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
        is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

        There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
        man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

        And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
        miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
        Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
        icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
        Abroad.



        With love in Christ,

        Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
      • antiquariu@aol.com
        In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@pcnet.com ... The Plot Thickens! Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@...
          writes:


          > What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
          > where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
          > seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
          > Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
          > times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
          > appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
          > Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
          > at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
          > awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in
          > the
          > cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
          > Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
          > by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?
          >

          The Plot Thickens!

          Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look suspiciously like
          Babylonian sphinxes -- for example, the seraphim. The notion of angels has
          evolved over time -- the Pan-Semitic form continued the 'terrible seraph' of
          Babylonian antiquity until well into the iconoclastic period. The warrior
          males started appearing in about the 7th and 8th centuries, gradually
          becoming sexless, and at least in western art with some greek overtones,
          becoming females, reaching their artistic perfection in the PreRaphaelite
          period in England. It's this form which is most pervasive in Western
          Thought, at least outside of seminaries.

          But then again, we haven't seen any burning bushes either, and I have several
          of them on post StoGlav icons. And should Andrej Rublev have depicted the
          oask of Mambre only, since we know that that was and is seeable?

          I don't really care. I accept icons as a means of opening up my small mind
          and heart, and looking into heaven. I find icons highly capable of putting
          me into a prayerful state of mind (a la window into heaven). When I say my
          prayers, I really don't debate whether St Luke did the prototype, and I have
          no problem with the outpourings of faith that have given us three-armed
          Madonnas, fly-fishing monks, dog-headed saints, warrior Ukies, triangular
          halos, or any of a number of other symbolic devices, because they are
          outpourings of faith, and despite the cringing on the part of some,
          allegorical. Just because the state of the art had not advanced much beyong
          flat portraiture doesn't mean all of our saints were flat, nor that those
          that aren't are heretical. And speaking of things seen and unseen - have any
          among us -- Pharisees included -- ever seen a halo, triangular or otherwise?
          Sounds like an allegorical device to me, just to make sure we see that we are
          in fact talking about something holy. So, Father, Son, Bird, or Rublevian
          Visitation of Abraham - does it really matter if it fulfills not the StovGlav
          functions, but some earlier one -- window into heaven and facilitator of a
          prayerful state? Besides, when did we ever come up with the idea of temporal
          infallibility? The StoGlav has already been overtaken by events on a number
          of its theses, like triple Alleluias, washing, shaving, etc. I now
          understand where the inspiration for some of our Russophiles comes from.

          Love,

          Vladimir Hindrichs


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • James Baglien
          ... Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ... Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you pejoratively
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 5, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most wrote:
            > Oh, I forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox
            Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular
            halo.

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StefanVPavlenko wrote:
            > Have you ever been at Mar Sabba's outside Jerusalem. In their main
            Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you
            pejoratively describe.

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
            > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
            explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
            > Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
            Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God. At the top you will see a
            beautiful icon of God the Father, added during the time of Ivan IV,
            long after the Stoglavyj Sobor. Should we throw out the Kursk-Root
            Icon as "heretical"?

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StephenATL <sbu@b...> wrote:
            > I would beg to differ Father. He who is pictured is Christ, the
            "Ancient of Days", not God the Father. The Church does strictly
            forbid the depiction of God the Father in icons......... He who has
            never been seen by any man, cannot be depicted in any image.

            There are really *two* questions in this thread: 1) is the icon
            prototype of God the Father portrayed as an old man desirable, and 2)
            how should we regard old icons of this type, when we encounter them?

            With respect to the first question, our parish had a recent
            experience with the issue. Our east wall includes, at its apex,
            Christ the Ancient of Days. When the design was first submitted for
            review in Jordanville, this element received considerably scrutiny
            to ensure that it was indeed *Christ* that was being depicted, not
            the Father. Reference was made to a composition of this type (of
            Christ) by Archbishop Alipy in a church in Cleveland, and Frs. Andrei
            and Luke signed off. When shown the design, Bishop Kyrill expressed
            the same concerns and question. Based on our experience, and
            conversations with a number of iconographers in the ROCOR, I suspect
            that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the Father as
            an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
            willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
            the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
            for stumbling sensitive parishioners.

            That said, it is indisputable that icons of the prototype in question
            have been around for a long time, and been the subjects of much
            veneration (as have a number of icons written in a modernistic style,
            that stream myrrh and are associated with miracles . . .). I think
            that the second question was succinctly answered, in another context,
            by St. John of SF, when he was asked about old icons written in an
            egregiously Latinate style. His instuctions were something along the
            lines of don't get any more like that, but don't stir up trouble by
            crusading against such icons when they have enjoyed long veneration.

            In IC XC,

            Priest James Baglien
          • for4z@aol.com
            In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
              jbaglien@... writes:
              >
              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
              > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
              > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
              > ......
              > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
              > Father as
              > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
              > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
              > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
              > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
              >



              Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
              an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
              wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
              Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
              working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
              decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
              of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
              cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
              architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
              height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
              were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

              -Nick Zaharov
              PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
              construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
              Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
              church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
              Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • for4z@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                jbaglien@... writes:
                >
                > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                > ......
                > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                > Father as
                > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                >



                Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                -Nick Zaharov
                PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kiril Bart
                Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So,
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father are of a relatively new origin.
                  Subdeacon Kirill
                  "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:


                  >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
                  >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
                  >stick.

                  I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
                  Stefan something.

                  But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
                  so I replied to that postion of your post.




                  >Answer my question, please?
                  >
                  >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                  >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

                  Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
                  Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

                  However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
                  depictions of God the Father in general.

                  Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
                  the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
                  Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
                  is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

                  There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
                  man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

                  And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
                  miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
                  Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
                  icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
                  Abroad.



                  With love in Christ,

                  Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


                  Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  ---------------------------------
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael Nikitin
                  This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian Church. Michael N. From: for4z@aol.com Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com To:
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian
                    Church.


                    Michael N.

                    From: for4z@...
                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
                    things
                    Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:52:27 EST

                    In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                    jbaglien@... writes:
                    >
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                    > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                    > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                    > ......
                    > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                    > Father as
                    > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                    > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                    > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                    > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                    >



                    Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                    an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                    wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                    Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                    working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                    decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                    of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                    cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                    architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                    height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                    were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                    -Nick Zaharov
                    PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                    construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                    Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                    church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                    Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
                    http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
                  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                    ... Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled The Historical
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Kirill Bart wrote:

                      >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is
                      >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know.
                      >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father
                      >are of a relatively new origin.
                      >Subdeacon Kirill


                      Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech
                      at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                      Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother
                      of God for the Russian Diaspora."

                      This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox Tradition."

                      So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the Kursk-Root
                      icon.

                      This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor Ivanovich
                      in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the Image of
                      the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His Tsaritza,
                      Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.

                      This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in 1295.

                      Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.

                      Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new origin"
                      is unsubstantiated.


                      With love in Christ,

                      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                    • boulia_1
                      Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing high-ranking clergy! I
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                        and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                        high-ranking clergy!

                        I remember your address, Fr. Alexander. It was quite a
                        wonderful, beautiful event, the 700th anniversary of our Hodigitria's
                        miraculous icon... joyous, uplifting, despite a frigid early winter
                        blast, and memorable.

                        In Christ's love,
                        Elizabeth

                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                        <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                        > Kirill Bart wrote:
                        >
                        > >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of
                        Kursk-Korenaya is
                        > >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we
                        all know.
                        > >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the
                        Father
                        > >are of a relatively new origin.
                        > >Subdeacon Kirill
                        >
                        >
                        > Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote
                        speech
                        > at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                        > Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the
                        Mother
                        > of God for the Russian Diaspora."
                        >
                        > This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox
                        Tradition."
                        >
                        > So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the
                        Kursk-Root
                        > icon.
                        >
                        > This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor
                        Ivanovich
                        > in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the
                        Image of
                        > the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His
                        Tsaritza,
                        > Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.
                        >
                        > This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in
                        1295.
                        >
                        > Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.
                        >
                        > Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new
                        origin"
                        > is unsubstantiated.
                        >
                        >
                        > With love in Christ,
                        >
                        > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                      • for4z@aol.com
                        In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily dictate or ascribe
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 8, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                          eledkovsky@... writes:


                          > Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                          > and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                          > high-ranking clergy!
                          >

                          Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily
                          dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field. Our church
                          is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures. This list is not
                          about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone else with
                          a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or explanation.
                          I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to question, to
                          be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these exercises help
                          us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in evaluating
                          history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of education;
                          the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love. This
                          list is meant to allow all of us "low ranking clergy and non clergy members"
                          to express our thoughts, our concerns, and our heartaches. Not all of us are
                          professors, not all of us are saints. Contributors to this list should not
                          be put down or discourgaged from doing so....

                          -Nick Zaharov


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • boulia_1
                          ... necesarily ... EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to point out is
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Nick Zaharov wrote:
                            >
                            > Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not
                            necesarily
                            > dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field.


                            EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not
                            *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to
                            point out is that, all too often on this list, someone
                            (sometimes signing off as "subdeacon" or "reader") posts some
                            know-it-all comment directed at one of our Archpriests in a haughty
                            manner that implies an opinion that he is opening a revelation to that
                            Archpriest. Sometimes this disresepectful attitude may not be
                            intentional, but, often, it seems to be.

                            As an aside, until I started reading this list, I never heard of
                            subdeacons and readers going around referring to themselves that way.
                            No one I know in the Synod HQ, for example, goes around calling George
                            Schatiloff (the senior subdeacon there, subdeacon to Metr. Philaret,
                            so, wearing the orar for at least 25 years) "Subdeacon George" (in
                            English or Russian) nor can I imagine him EVER signing his name that
                            way. The way I always understood it, these ranks were only formally
                            used in ecclesiastical documents (ukaze, gramata, that sort of
                            thing). Only upper clergy (Deacons or higher) were addressed in a
                            manner that acknowledged their position. So, it seems odd to me, this
                            fashion -- somewhat in line with some of the cross-cultural etiquette
                            that Mr. Kozyreff wrote about quite intelligently a few posts earlier.

                            NZ wrote further:
                            > Our church
                            > is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures.

                            EAL responds: Who said anything about infallability or assigned 'cult'
                            status to anyone?

                            NZ continued:
                            >This list is
                            not
                            > about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone
                            >else with
                            > a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or
                            >explanation.
                            > I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to
                            question, to
                            > be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these
                            exercises help
                            > us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in
                            evaluating
                            > history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of
                            education;
                            > the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love.

                            EAL agrees wholeheartedly. For better (but often for worse), this
                            medium is a communication tool. But it is one which is easily abused,
                            allowing for carelessness that few would dare allow in face-to-face
                            discussions. I object to displays of disrespect. And I especially
                            object to displays of disrespect toward clergy. Agree or disagree with
                            the person, but one must always show love and regard for their "san"
                            (sorry I don't know the best translation for this word)! We do not
                            assign cult status to ranks, but we do respect ranks in Orthodoxy.

                            Hence, I find it embarassing when it seems not to matter to some
                            people that thet addressing a senior clergy member rudely. How can
                            it not matter that these are men who not only gave many years of their
                            lives over to study of the Scriptures, holy Fathers, church Tradition
                            (I speak now of those clergy members who attended seminary), but also
                            have spent years tending their flocks, caring for people? How many of
                            us 'lower' and 'non-clergy' people have made that kind of
                            whole life commitment to God, people and the Church?

                            Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                            Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                            met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                            whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                            experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                            they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                            presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                            how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                            administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                            secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                            to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!

                            That is not to say that Priests (these or any) and Bishops can't be
                            wrong, and they can't be questioned. NOT at all. They are MEN and
                            they make mistakes. But question them with respect, please, and with
                            "brotherly love"!

                            I did not mean to discourage anyone's expression of concerns or
                            heartaches. But I do believe such expressions should be made in a
                            manner decorous and becoming to an Orthodox Christian, without virtual
                            sneers.

                            With that thought, it being Forgiveness Sunday, I ask the forgiveness
                            of all and do sincerely wish each person an edifying Great Lent.

                            In Christ's love,
                            Elizabeth
                          • Michael Nikitin
                            Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have met but do not know
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              "Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                              Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                              met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                              whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                              experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                              they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                              presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                              how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                              administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                              secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                              to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!"

                              Clergy with large parishes get paid well. On top of that some receive
                              bording for free. They also get paid for Baptisms, marriages and burials.
                              And their lifes are as comfy if not more comfortable than some of ours.

                              There are clergy with small parishes that cannot sustain them. These clergy
                              have to work,serve,do baptisms,marriages and burials and not get paid. Their
                              lifes are not so comfortable, especially if they have children.
                              These clergy don't post on the lists. They are too busy helping their
                              parishioners spiritually.

                              Just as laypeople, clergy should also not address laypeople with sarcasm or
                              ill will.

                              I ask forgiveness and wish everyone a spiritually growing lent.

                              Michael N.

                              From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                              Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things
                              Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:36:37 -0000



                              _________________________________________________________________
                              The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
                              http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
                            • sergerust2002
                              S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST ! TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: Who is Vethiy Den mi that we sing on the holiday of Meeting of our Lord I believe? Isn t it our Savior?
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 5, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST !

                                TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

                                Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                                Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?
                                (Michael Nikitine, post 7990, Mar 4, 2003)


                                WE GOT 3 CONCORDING ANSWERS:

                                He who is pictured is Christ, the "Ancient of Days",
                                not God the Father.
                                (Staphanos, post 7985, Mar 3, 2003)

                                Our east wall includes, at its apex, Christ the Ancient of Days ...
                                (fr James Baglien, post 7999, Mar 5, 2003)

                                Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the
                                stikhiras of the Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes
                                in his hands the Ancient of Days..."
                                (fr Alexander Lebedeff, post 8006, Mar 6, 2003)


                                HERE IS A 4-TH ANSWER, OPPOSING THE PREVIOUS 3:

                                « Now `tis time that our Discourse should celebrate God (Whose
                                Names are many) as "Omnipotent" and "Ancient of Days." The former
                                title is given Him because ... [about omnipotence] ... And "Ancient
                                of Days" is a title given to God because He is the Eternity of all
                                things and their Time and is anterior to Days and anterior to
                                Eternity and Time. And the titles "Time", "Day", "Season",
                                and "Eternity" must be applied to Him in a divine sense, to mean One
                                Who is utterly incapable of all change and movement and, in His
                                eternal motion, remains at rest ; and Who is the Cause whence
                                Eternity, Time, and Days are derived. Wherefore in the Sacred
                                Theophanies revealed in mystic Visions He is described as Ancient and
                                yet as Young : the former title signifying that He is the Primal
                                Being, existent from the Beginning through the entire process of the
                                world onto the End. Or, as the divine Initiator [presumably
                                Hierotheus] tells us, either term implies the Primal Being of God :
                                the term "Ancient" signifying that He is First in point of Time, and
                                the term "Young" that he possesses the Primacy in point of Number,
                                since Unity and the properties of Unity have a primacy over the more
                                advanced numbers ... [about time and eternity] ... And God we must
                                celebrate as both Eternity and Time, as the Cause of all Time and
                                Eternity and as the Ancient of Days ; as before Time and above Time
                                and producing all the variety of times and seasons ; and again, as
                                existing before Eternal Ages, in that He is before Eternity and above
                                Eternity and His Kingdom is the Kingdom of all the Eternal Ages.
                                Amen.» (St Dyonisius the Areopagite, The Divine Names, chapter 10)


                                ANY HINT?

                                SERGE RUST
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.