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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things

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  • Michael Nikitin
    You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but took them personaly and started hitting me with a stick. Answer my question, please? Who is Vethiy Den mi
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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      You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
      took them personaly and started hitting me with a
      stick.

      Answer my question, please?

      Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
      Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?


      Michael N.

      From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
      Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
      things
      Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:01:12 -0800

      Michael Nikitin wrote:

      >Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
      >forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?

      Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
      Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God.

      At the top you will see a beautiful icon of God the Father, added during
      the time of Ivan IV, long after the Stoglavyj Sobor.

      Should we throw out the Kursk-Root Icon as "heretical"?

      And, regarding the Council of the Hundred Chapters, I suggest that Michael
      reads its 31st Canon:

      "if anyone should not sign himself with two fingers, as Christ also, let
      him be accursed (anathema)."

      "Ashche kto ne znamenaetsya dvema persty, jakozhe i Khristos, da est'
      proklyat."

      How many fingers do **you** sign yourself with, Michael?

      If not two, then you are anathema and accursed.


      With love in Christ,

      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

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    • Joachim Wertz
      What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were seen by the
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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        What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
        where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
        seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
        Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
        times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
        appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
        Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
        at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
        awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in the
        cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
        Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
        by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?

        In Christ,

        Joachim Wertz

        From: antiquariu@...
        Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:55:28 EST
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
        things


        In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        mikeniki@... writes:


        > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
        > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
        > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
        > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
        > Father ?
        >

        Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should
        have
        paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
        later...

        Love,

        Vladimir Hindrichs


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      • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
        ... I didn t see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr. Stefan something. But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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          >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
          >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
          >stick.

          I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
          Stefan something.

          But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
          so I replied to that postion of your post.




          >Answer my question, please?
          >
          >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
          >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

          Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
          Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

          However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
          depictions of God the Father in general.

          Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
          the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
          Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
          is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

          There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
          man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

          And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
          miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
          Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
          icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
          Abroad.



          With love in Christ,

          Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
        • antiquariu@aol.com
          In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@pcnet.com ... The Plot Thickens! Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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            In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@...
            writes:


            > What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
            > where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
            > seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
            > Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
            > times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
            > appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
            > Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
            > at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
            > awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in
            > the
            > cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
            > Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
            > by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?
            >

            The Plot Thickens!

            Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look suspiciously like
            Babylonian sphinxes -- for example, the seraphim. The notion of angels has
            evolved over time -- the Pan-Semitic form continued the 'terrible seraph' of
            Babylonian antiquity until well into the iconoclastic period. The warrior
            males started appearing in about the 7th and 8th centuries, gradually
            becoming sexless, and at least in western art with some greek overtones,
            becoming females, reaching their artistic perfection in the PreRaphaelite
            period in England. It's this form which is most pervasive in Western
            Thought, at least outside of seminaries.

            But then again, we haven't seen any burning bushes either, and I have several
            of them on post StoGlav icons. And should Andrej Rublev have depicted the
            oask of Mambre only, since we know that that was and is seeable?

            I don't really care. I accept icons as a means of opening up my small mind
            and heart, and looking into heaven. I find icons highly capable of putting
            me into a prayerful state of mind (a la window into heaven). When I say my
            prayers, I really don't debate whether St Luke did the prototype, and I have
            no problem with the outpourings of faith that have given us three-armed
            Madonnas, fly-fishing monks, dog-headed saints, warrior Ukies, triangular
            halos, or any of a number of other symbolic devices, because they are
            outpourings of faith, and despite the cringing on the part of some,
            allegorical. Just because the state of the art had not advanced much beyong
            flat portraiture doesn't mean all of our saints were flat, nor that those
            that aren't are heretical. And speaking of things seen and unseen - have any
            among us -- Pharisees included -- ever seen a halo, triangular or otherwise?
            Sounds like an allegorical device to me, just to make sure we see that we are
            in fact talking about something holy. So, Father, Son, Bird, or Rublevian
            Visitation of Abraham - does it really matter if it fulfills not the StovGlav
            functions, but some earlier one -- window into heaven and facilitator of a
            prayerful state? Besides, when did we ever come up with the idea of temporal
            infallibility? The StoGlav has already been overtaken by events on a number
            of its theses, like triple Alleluias, washing, shaving, etc. I now
            understand where the inspiration for some of our Russophiles comes from.

            Love,

            Vladimir Hindrichs


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Baglien
            ... Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ... Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you pejoratively
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 5, 2003
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              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most wrote:
              > Oh, I forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox
              Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular
              halo.

              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StefanVPavlenko wrote:
              > Have you ever been at Mar Sabba's outside Jerusalem. In their main
              Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you
              pejoratively describe.

              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
              > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
              explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?

              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
              > Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
              Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God. At the top you will see a
              beautiful icon of God the Father, added during the time of Ivan IV,
              long after the Stoglavyj Sobor. Should we throw out the Kursk-Root
              Icon as "heretical"?

              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StephenATL <sbu@b...> wrote:
              > I would beg to differ Father. He who is pictured is Christ, the
              "Ancient of Days", not God the Father. The Church does strictly
              forbid the depiction of God the Father in icons......... He who has
              never been seen by any man, cannot be depicted in any image.

              There are really *two* questions in this thread: 1) is the icon
              prototype of God the Father portrayed as an old man desirable, and 2)
              how should we regard old icons of this type, when we encounter them?

              With respect to the first question, our parish had a recent
              experience with the issue. Our east wall includes, at its apex,
              Christ the Ancient of Days. When the design was first submitted for
              review in Jordanville, this element received considerably scrutiny
              to ensure that it was indeed *Christ* that was being depicted, not
              the Father. Reference was made to a composition of this type (of
              Christ) by Archbishop Alipy in a church in Cleveland, and Frs. Andrei
              and Luke signed off. When shown the design, Bishop Kyrill expressed
              the same concerns and question. Based on our experience, and
              conversations with a number of iconographers in the ROCOR, I suspect
              that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the Father as
              an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
              willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
              the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
              for stumbling sensitive parishioners.

              That said, it is indisputable that icons of the prototype in question
              have been around for a long time, and been the subjects of much
              veneration (as have a number of icons written in a modernistic style,
              that stream myrrh and are associated with miracles . . .). I think
              that the second question was succinctly answered, in another context,
              by St. John of SF, when he was asked about old icons written in an
              egregiously Latinate style. His instuctions were something along the
              lines of don't get any more like that, but don't stir up trouble by
              crusading against such icons when they have enjoyed long veneration.

              In IC XC,

              Priest James Baglien
            • for4z@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
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                In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                jbaglien@... writes:
                >
                > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                > ......
                > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                > Father as
                > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                >



                Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                -Nick Zaharov
                PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • for4z@aol.com
                In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
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                  In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                  jbaglien@... writes:
                  >
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                  > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                  > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                  > ......
                  > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                  > Father as
                  > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                  > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                  > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                  > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                  >



                  Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                  an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                  wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                  Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                  working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                  decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                  of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                  cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                  architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                  height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                  were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                  -Nick Zaharov
                  PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                  construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                  Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                  church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                  Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kiril Bart
                  Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
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                    Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father are of a relatively new origin.
                    Subdeacon Kirill
                    "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:


                    >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
                    >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
                    >stick.

                    I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
                    Stefan something.

                    But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
                    so I replied to that postion of your post.




                    >Answer my question, please?
                    >
                    >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                    >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

                    Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
                    Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

                    However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
                    depictions of God the Father in general.

                    Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
                    the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
                    Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
                    is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

                    There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
                    man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

                    And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
                    miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
                    Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
                    icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
                    Abroad.



                    With love in Christ,

                    Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Nikitin
                    This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian Church. Michael N. From: for4z@aol.com Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com To:
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
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                      This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian
                      Church.


                      Michael N.

                      From: for4z@...
                      Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
                      things
                      Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:52:27 EST

                      In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                      jbaglien@... writes:
                      >
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                      > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                      > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                      > ......
                      > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                      > Father as
                      > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                      > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                      > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                      > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                      >



                      Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                      an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                      wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                      Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                      working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                      decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                      of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                      cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                      architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                      height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                      were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                      -Nick Zaharov
                      PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                      construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                      Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                      church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                      Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      _________________________________________________________________
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                    • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                      ... Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled The Historical
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
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                        Kirill Bart wrote:

                        >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is
                        >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know.
                        >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father
                        >are of a relatively new origin.
                        >Subdeacon Kirill


                        Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech
                        at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                        Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother
                        of God for the Russian Diaspora."

                        This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox Tradition."

                        So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the Kursk-Root
                        icon.

                        This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor Ivanovich
                        in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the Image of
                        the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His Tsaritza,
                        Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.

                        This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in 1295.

                        Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.

                        Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new origin"
                        is unsubstantiated.


                        With love in Christ,

                        Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                      • boulia_1
                        Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing high-ranking clergy! I
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
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                          Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                          and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                          high-ranking clergy!

                          I remember your address, Fr. Alexander. It was quite a
                          wonderful, beautiful event, the 700th anniversary of our Hodigitria's
                          miraculous icon... joyous, uplifting, despite a frigid early winter
                          blast, and memorable.

                          In Christ's love,
                          Elizabeth

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                          <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                          > Kirill Bart wrote:
                          >
                          > >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of
                          Kursk-Korenaya is
                          > >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we
                          all know.
                          > >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the
                          Father
                          > >are of a relatively new origin.
                          > >Subdeacon Kirill
                          >
                          >
                          > Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote
                          speech
                          > at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                          > Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the
                          Mother
                          > of God for the Russian Diaspora."
                          >
                          > This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox
                          Tradition."
                          >
                          > So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the
                          Kursk-Root
                          > icon.
                          >
                          > This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor
                          Ivanovich
                          > in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the
                          Image of
                          > the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His
                          Tsaritza,
                          > Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.
                          >
                          > This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in
                          1295.
                          >
                          > Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.
                          >
                          > Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new
                          origin"
                          > is unsubstantiated.
                          >
                          >
                          > With love in Christ,
                          >
                          > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                        • for4z@aol.com
                          In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily dictate or ascribe
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 8, 2003
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                            In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                            eledkovsky@... writes:


                            > Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                            > and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                            > high-ranking clergy!
                            >

                            Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily
                            dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field. Our church
                            is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures. This list is not
                            about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone else with
                            a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or explanation.
                            I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to question, to
                            be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these exercises help
                            us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in evaluating
                            history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of education;
                            the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love. This
                            list is meant to allow all of us "low ranking clergy and non clergy members"
                            to express our thoughts, our concerns, and our heartaches. Not all of us are
                            professors, not all of us are saints. Contributors to this list should not
                            be put down or discourgaged from doing so....

                            -Nick Zaharov


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • boulia_1
                            ... necesarily ... EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to point out is
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
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                              Nick Zaharov wrote:
                              >
                              > Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not
                              necesarily
                              > dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field.


                              EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not
                              *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to
                              point out is that, all too often on this list, someone
                              (sometimes signing off as "subdeacon" or "reader") posts some
                              know-it-all comment directed at one of our Archpriests in a haughty
                              manner that implies an opinion that he is opening a revelation to that
                              Archpriest. Sometimes this disresepectful attitude may not be
                              intentional, but, often, it seems to be.

                              As an aside, until I started reading this list, I never heard of
                              subdeacons and readers going around referring to themselves that way.
                              No one I know in the Synod HQ, for example, goes around calling George
                              Schatiloff (the senior subdeacon there, subdeacon to Metr. Philaret,
                              so, wearing the orar for at least 25 years) "Subdeacon George" (in
                              English or Russian) nor can I imagine him EVER signing his name that
                              way. The way I always understood it, these ranks were only formally
                              used in ecclesiastical documents (ukaze, gramata, that sort of
                              thing). Only upper clergy (Deacons or higher) were addressed in a
                              manner that acknowledged their position. So, it seems odd to me, this
                              fashion -- somewhat in line with some of the cross-cultural etiquette
                              that Mr. Kozyreff wrote about quite intelligently a few posts earlier.

                              NZ wrote further:
                              > Our church
                              > is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures.

                              EAL responds: Who said anything about infallability or assigned 'cult'
                              status to anyone?

                              NZ continued:
                              >This list is
                              not
                              > about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone
                              >else with
                              > a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or
                              >explanation.
                              > I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to
                              question, to
                              > be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these
                              exercises help
                              > us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in
                              evaluating
                              > history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of
                              education;
                              > the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love.

                              EAL agrees wholeheartedly. For better (but often for worse), this
                              medium is a communication tool. But it is one which is easily abused,
                              allowing for carelessness that few would dare allow in face-to-face
                              discussions. I object to displays of disrespect. And I especially
                              object to displays of disrespect toward clergy. Agree or disagree with
                              the person, but one must always show love and regard for their "san"
                              (sorry I don't know the best translation for this word)! We do not
                              assign cult status to ranks, but we do respect ranks in Orthodoxy.

                              Hence, I find it embarassing when it seems not to matter to some
                              people that thet addressing a senior clergy member rudely. How can
                              it not matter that these are men who not only gave many years of their
                              lives over to study of the Scriptures, holy Fathers, church Tradition
                              (I speak now of those clergy members who attended seminary), but also
                              have spent years tending their flocks, caring for people? How many of
                              us 'lower' and 'non-clergy' people have made that kind of
                              whole life commitment to God, people and the Church?

                              Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                              Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                              met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                              whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                              experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                              they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                              presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                              how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                              administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                              secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                              to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!

                              That is not to say that Priests (these or any) and Bishops can't be
                              wrong, and they can't be questioned. NOT at all. They are MEN and
                              they make mistakes. But question them with respect, please, and with
                              "brotherly love"!

                              I did not mean to discourage anyone's expression of concerns or
                              heartaches. But I do believe such expressions should be made in a
                              manner decorous and becoming to an Orthodox Christian, without virtual
                              sneers.

                              With that thought, it being Forgiveness Sunday, I ask the forgiveness
                              of all and do sincerely wish each person an edifying Great Lent.

                              In Christ's love,
                              Elizabeth
                            • Michael Nikitin
                              Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have met but do not know
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
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                                "Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                                Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                                met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                                whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                                experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                                they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                                presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                                how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                                administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                                secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                                to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!"

                                Clergy with large parishes get paid well. On top of that some receive
                                bording for free. They also get paid for Baptisms, marriages and burials.
                                And their lifes are as comfy if not more comfortable than some of ours.

                                There are clergy with small parishes that cannot sustain them. These clergy
                                have to work,serve,do baptisms,marriages and burials and not get paid. Their
                                lifes are not so comfortable, especially if they have children.
                                These clergy don't post on the lists. They are too busy helping their
                                parishioners spiritually.

                                Just as laypeople, clergy should also not address laypeople with sarcasm or
                                ill will.

                                I ask forgiveness and wish everyone a spiritually growing lent.

                                Michael N.

                                From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                                Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things
                                Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:36:37 -0000



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                              • sergerust2002
                                S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST ! TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: Who is Vethiy Den mi that we sing on the holiday of Meeting of our Lord I believe? Isn t it our Savior?
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                  S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST !

                                  TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

                                  Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                                  Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?
                                  (Michael Nikitine, post 7990, Mar 4, 2003)


                                  WE GOT 3 CONCORDING ANSWERS:

                                  He who is pictured is Christ, the "Ancient of Days",
                                  not God the Father.
                                  (Staphanos, post 7985, Mar 3, 2003)

                                  Our east wall includes, at its apex, Christ the Ancient of Days ...
                                  (fr James Baglien, post 7999, Mar 5, 2003)

                                  Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the
                                  stikhiras of the Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes
                                  in his hands the Ancient of Days..."
                                  (fr Alexander Lebedeff, post 8006, Mar 6, 2003)


                                  HERE IS A 4-TH ANSWER, OPPOSING THE PREVIOUS 3:

                                  « Now `tis time that our Discourse should celebrate God (Whose
                                  Names are many) as "Omnipotent" and "Ancient of Days." The former
                                  title is given Him because ... [about omnipotence] ... And "Ancient
                                  of Days" is a title given to God because He is the Eternity of all
                                  things and their Time and is anterior to Days and anterior to
                                  Eternity and Time. And the titles "Time", "Day", "Season",
                                  and "Eternity" must be applied to Him in a divine sense, to mean One
                                  Who is utterly incapable of all change and movement and, in His
                                  eternal motion, remains at rest ; and Who is the Cause whence
                                  Eternity, Time, and Days are derived. Wherefore in the Sacred
                                  Theophanies revealed in mystic Visions He is described as Ancient and
                                  yet as Young : the former title signifying that He is the Primal
                                  Being, existent from the Beginning through the entire process of the
                                  world onto the End. Or, as the divine Initiator [presumably
                                  Hierotheus] tells us, either term implies the Primal Being of God :
                                  the term "Ancient" signifying that He is First in point of Time, and
                                  the term "Young" that he possesses the Primacy in point of Number,
                                  since Unity and the properties of Unity have a primacy over the more
                                  advanced numbers ... [about time and eternity] ... And God we must
                                  celebrate as both Eternity and Time, as the Cause of all Time and
                                  Eternity and as the Ancient of Days ; as before Time and above Time
                                  and producing all the variety of times and seasons ; and again, as
                                  existing before Eternal Ages, in that He is before Eternity and above
                                  Eternity and His Kingdom is the Kingdom of all the Eternal Ages.
                                  Amen.» (St Dyonisius the Areopagite, The Divine Names, chapter 10)


                                  ANY HINT?

                                  SERGE RUST
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