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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things

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  • antiquariu@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should have paid more
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 3, 2003
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      In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      mikeniki@... writes:


      > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
      > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
      > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
      > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
      > Father ?
      >

      Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should have
      paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
      later...

      Love,

      Vladimir Hindrichs


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Nikitin
      You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but took them personaly and started hitting me with a stick. Answer my question, please? Who is Vethiy Den mi
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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        You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
        took them personaly and started hitting me with a
        stick.

        Answer my question, please?

        Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
        Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?


        Michael N.

        From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
        Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
        things
        Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:01:12 -0800

        Michael Nikitin wrote:

        >Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
        >forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?

        Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
        Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God.

        At the top you will see a beautiful icon of God the Father, added during
        the time of Ivan IV, long after the Stoglavyj Sobor.

        Should we throw out the Kursk-Root Icon as "heretical"?

        And, regarding the Council of the Hundred Chapters, I suggest that Michael
        reads its 31st Canon:

        "if anyone should not sign himself with two fingers, as Christ also, let
        him be accursed (anathema)."

        "Ashche kto ne znamenaetsya dvema persty, jakozhe i Khristos, da est'
        proklyat."

        How many fingers do **you** sign yourself with, Michael?

        If not two, then you are anathema and accursed.


        With love in Christ,

        Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

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      • Joachim Wertz
        What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were seen by the
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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          What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
          where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
          seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
          Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
          times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
          appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
          Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
          at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
          awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in the
          cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
          Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
          by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?

          In Christ,

          Joachim Wertz

          From: antiquariu@...
          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:55:28 EST
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
          things


          In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          mikeniki@... writes:


          > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
          > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
          > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
          > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
          > Father ?
          >

          Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should
          have
          paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
          later...

          Love,

          Vladimir Hindrichs


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • larry most
          GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear everyone talking about the icons, When I said that I kind of crigne when I see God the Father, depicted as
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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            GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
            Dear everyone talking about the icons,
            When I said that I kind of "crigne" when I see God the Father, depicted as an old man with a triangular halo, that's all that I do, I just "chringe". I'm son offended or anything like that. We have a c ouple of icons, one that depicts the creation of the cosmos and the other shows God naming the animals and off to the side they show Christ (because He is God). I didn't mean to start a fire over this I was just making a comment. I do know that on the Roman Gospel that some times there is an icon of God the Father (as an old man). It was just a comment.
            Love in Christ,
            Sub-deacon Lawrence
            antiquariu@... wrote:In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            mikeniki@... writes:


            > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
            > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
            > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
            > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
            > Father ?
            >

            Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should have
            paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
            later...

            Love,

            Vladimir Hindrichs


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
            ... I didn t see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr. Stefan something. But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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              >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
              >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
              >stick.

              I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
              Stefan something.

              But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
              so I replied to that postion of your post.




              >Answer my question, please?
              >
              >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
              >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

              Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
              Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

              However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
              depictions of God the Father in general.

              Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
              the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
              Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
              is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

              There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
              man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

              And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
              miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
              Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
              icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
              Abroad.



              With love in Christ,

              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
            • antiquariu@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@pcnet.com ... The Plot Thickens! Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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                In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@...
                writes:


                > What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
                > where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
                > seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
                > Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
                > times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
                > appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
                > Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
                > at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
                > awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in
                > the
                > cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
                > Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
                > by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?
                >

                The Plot Thickens!

                Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look suspiciously like
                Babylonian sphinxes -- for example, the seraphim. The notion of angels has
                evolved over time -- the Pan-Semitic form continued the 'terrible seraph' of
                Babylonian antiquity until well into the iconoclastic period. The warrior
                males started appearing in about the 7th and 8th centuries, gradually
                becoming sexless, and at least in western art with some greek overtones,
                becoming females, reaching their artistic perfection in the PreRaphaelite
                period in England. It's this form which is most pervasive in Western
                Thought, at least outside of seminaries.

                But then again, we haven't seen any burning bushes either, and I have several
                of them on post StoGlav icons. And should Andrej Rublev have depicted the
                oask of Mambre only, since we know that that was and is seeable?

                I don't really care. I accept icons as a means of opening up my small mind
                and heart, and looking into heaven. I find icons highly capable of putting
                me into a prayerful state of mind (a la window into heaven). When I say my
                prayers, I really don't debate whether St Luke did the prototype, and I have
                no problem with the outpourings of faith that have given us three-armed
                Madonnas, fly-fishing monks, dog-headed saints, warrior Ukies, triangular
                halos, or any of a number of other symbolic devices, because they are
                outpourings of faith, and despite the cringing on the part of some,
                allegorical. Just because the state of the art had not advanced much beyong
                flat portraiture doesn't mean all of our saints were flat, nor that those
                that aren't are heretical. And speaking of things seen and unseen - have any
                among us -- Pharisees included -- ever seen a halo, triangular or otherwise?
                Sounds like an allegorical device to me, just to make sure we see that we are
                in fact talking about something holy. So, Father, Son, Bird, or Rublevian
                Visitation of Abraham - does it really matter if it fulfills not the StovGlav
                functions, but some earlier one -- window into heaven and facilitator of a
                prayerful state? Besides, when did we ever come up with the idea of temporal
                infallibility? The StoGlav has already been overtaken by events on a number
                of its theses, like triple Alleluias, washing, shaving, etc. I now
                understand where the inspiration for some of our Russophiles comes from.

                Love,

                Vladimir Hindrichs


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Baglien
                ... Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ... Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you pejoratively
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 5, 2003
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most wrote:
                  > Oh, I forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox
                  Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular
                  halo.

                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StefanVPavlenko wrote:
                  > Have you ever been at Mar Sabba's outside Jerusalem. In their main
                  Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you
                  pejoratively describe.

                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                  > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                  explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?

                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
                  > Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
                  Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God. At the top you will see a
                  beautiful icon of God the Father, added during the time of Ivan IV,
                  long after the Stoglavyj Sobor. Should we throw out the Kursk-Root
                  Icon as "heretical"?

                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StephenATL <sbu@b...> wrote:
                  > I would beg to differ Father. He who is pictured is Christ, the
                  "Ancient of Days", not God the Father. The Church does strictly
                  forbid the depiction of God the Father in icons......... He who has
                  never been seen by any man, cannot be depicted in any image.

                  There are really *two* questions in this thread: 1) is the icon
                  prototype of God the Father portrayed as an old man desirable, and 2)
                  how should we regard old icons of this type, when we encounter them?

                  With respect to the first question, our parish had a recent
                  experience with the issue. Our east wall includes, at its apex,
                  Christ the Ancient of Days. When the design was first submitted for
                  review in Jordanville, this element received considerably scrutiny
                  to ensure that it was indeed *Christ* that was being depicted, not
                  the Father. Reference was made to a composition of this type (of
                  Christ) by Archbishop Alipy in a church in Cleveland, and Frs. Andrei
                  and Luke signed off. When shown the design, Bishop Kyrill expressed
                  the same concerns and question. Based on our experience, and
                  conversations with a number of iconographers in the ROCOR, I suspect
                  that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the Father as
                  an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                  willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                  the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                  for stumbling sensitive parishioners.

                  That said, it is indisputable that icons of the prototype in question
                  have been around for a long time, and been the subjects of much
                  veneration (as have a number of icons written in a modernistic style,
                  that stream myrrh and are associated with miracles . . .). I think
                  that the second question was succinctly answered, in another context,
                  by St. John of SF, when he was asked about old icons written in an
                  egregiously Latinate style. His instuctions were something along the
                  lines of don't get any more like that, but don't stir up trouble by
                  crusading against such icons when they have enjoyed long veneration.

                  In IC XC,

                  Priest James Baglien
                • for4z@aol.com
                  In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
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                    In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                    jbaglien@... writes:
                    >
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                    > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                    > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                    > ......
                    > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                    > Father as
                    > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                    > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                    > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                    > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                    >



                    Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                    an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                    wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                    Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                    working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                    decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                    of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                    cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                    architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                    height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                    were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                    -Nick Zaharov
                    PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                    construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                    Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                    church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                    Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • for4z@aol.com
                    In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
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                      In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                      jbaglien@... writes:
                      >
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                      > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                      > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                      > ......
                      > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                      > Father as
                      > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                      > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                      > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                      > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                      >



                      Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                      an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                      wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                      Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                      working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                      decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                      of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                      cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                      architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                      height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                      were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                      -Nick Zaharov
                      PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                      construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                      Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                      church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                      Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kiril Bart
                      Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So,
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
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                        Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father are of a relatively new origin.
                        Subdeacon Kirill
                        "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:


                        >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
                        >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
                        >stick.

                        I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
                        Stefan something.

                        But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
                        so I replied to that postion of your post.




                        >Answer my question, please?
                        >
                        >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                        >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

                        Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
                        Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

                        However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
                        depictions of God the Father in general.

                        Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
                        the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
                        Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
                        is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

                        There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
                        man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

                        And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
                        miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
                        Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
                        icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
                        Abroad.



                        With love in Christ,

                        Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael Nikitin
                        This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian Church. Michael N. From: for4z@aol.com Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com To:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
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                          This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian
                          Church.


                          Michael N.

                          From: for4z@...
                          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
                          things
                          Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:52:27 EST

                          In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                          jbaglien@... writes:
                          >
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                          > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                          > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                          > ......
                          > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                          > Father as
                          > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                          > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                          > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                          > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                          >



                          Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                          an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                          wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                          Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                          working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                          decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                          of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                          cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                          architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                          height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                          were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                          -Nick Zaharov
                          PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                          construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                          Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                          church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                          Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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                        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                          ... Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled The Historical
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
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                            Kirill Bart wrote:

                            >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is
                            >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know.
                            >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father
                            >are of a relatively new origin.
                            >Subdeacon Kirill


                            Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech
                            at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                            Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother
                            of God for the Russian Diaspora."

                            This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox Tradition."

                            So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the Kursk-Root
                            icon.

                            This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor Ivanovich
                            in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the Image of
                            the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His Tsaritza,
                            Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.

                            This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in 1295.

                            Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.

                            Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new origin"
                            is unsubstantiated.


                            With love in Christ,

                            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                          • boulia_1
                            Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing high-ranking clergy! I
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
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                              Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                              and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                              high-ranking clergy!

                              I remember your address, Fr. Alexander. It was quite a
                              wonderful, beautiful event, the 700th anniversary of our Hodigitria's
                              miraculous icon... joyous, uplifting, despite a frigid early winter
                              blast, and memorable.

                              In Christ's love,
                              Elizabeth

                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                              <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                              > Kirill Bart wrote:
                              >
                              > >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of
                              Kursk-Korenaya is
                              > >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we
                              all know.
                              > >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the
                              Father
                              > >are of a relatively new origin.
                              > >Subdeacon Kirill
                              >
                              >
                              > Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote
                              speech
                              > at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                              > Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the
                              Mother
                              > of God for the Russian Diaspora."
                              >
                              > This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox
                              Tradition."
                              >
                              > So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the
                              Kursk-Root
                              > icon.
                              >
                              > This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor
                              Ivanovich
                              > in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the
                              Image of
                              > the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His
                              Tsaritza,
                              > Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.
                              >
                              > This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in
                              1295.
                              >
                              > Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.
                              >
                              > Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new
                              origin"
                              > is unsubstantiated.
                              >
                              >
                              > With love in Christ,
                              >
                              > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                            • for4z@aol.com
                              In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily dictate or ascribe
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 8, 2003
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                                In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                eledkovsky@... writes:


                                > Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                                > and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                                > high-ranking clergy!
                                >

                                Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily
                                dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field. Our church
                                is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures. This list is not
                                about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone else with
                                a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or explanation.
                                I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to question, to
                                be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these exercises help
                                us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in evaluating
                                history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of education;
                                the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love. This
                                list is meant to allow all of us "low ranking clergy and non clergy members"
                                to express our thoughts, our concerns, and our heartaches. Not all of us are
                                professors, not all of us are saints. Contributors to this list should not
                                be put down or discourgaged from doing so....

                                -Nick Zaharov


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • boulia_1
                                ... necesarily ... EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to point out is
                                Message 15 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
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                                  Nick Zaharov wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not
                                  necesarily
                                  > dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field.


                                  EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not
                                  *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to
                                  point out is that, all too often on this list, someone
                                  (sometimes signing off as "subdeacon" or "reader") posts some
                                  know-it-all comment directed at one of our Archpriests in a haughty
                                  manner that implies an opinion that he is opening a revelation to that
                                  Archpriest. Sometimes this disresepectful attitude may not be
                                  intentional, but, often, it seems to be.

                                  As an aside, until I started reading this list, I never heard of
                                  subdeacons and readers going around referring to themselves that way.
                                  No one I know in the Synod HQ, for example, goes around calling George
                                  Schatiloff (the senior subdeacon there, subdeacon to Metr. Philaret,
                                  so, wearing the orar for at least 25 years) "Subdeacon George" (in
                                  English or Russian) nor can I imagine him EVER signing his name that
                                  way. The way I always understood it, these ranks were only formally
                                  used in ecclesiastical documents (ukaze, gramata, that sort of
                                  thing). Only upper clergy (Deacons or higher) were addressed in a
                                  manner that acknowledged their position. So, it seems odd to me, this
                                  fashion -- somewhat in line with some of the cross-cultural etiquette
                                  that Mr. Kozyreff wrote about quite intelligently a few posts earlier.

                                  NZ wrote further:
                                  > Our church
                                  > is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures.

                                  EAL responds: Who said anything about infallability or assigned 'cult'
                                  status to anyone?

                                  NZ continued:
                                  >This list is
                                  not
                                  > about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone
                                  >else with
                                  > a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or
                                  >explanation.
                                  > I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to
                                  question, to
                                  > be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these
                                  exercises help
                                  > us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in
                                  evaluating
                                  > history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of
                                  education;
                                  > the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love.

                                  EAL agrees wholeheartedly. For better (but often for worse), this
                                  medium is a communication tool. But it is one which is easily abused,
                                  allowing for carelessness that few would dare allow in face-to-face
                                  discussions. I object to displays of disrespect. And I especially
                                  object to displays of disrespect toward clergy. Agree or disagree with
                                  the person, but one must always show love and regard for their "san"
                                  (sorry I don't know the best translation for this word)! We do not
                                  assign cult status to ranks, but we do respect ranks in Orthodoxy.

                                  Hence, I find it embarassing when it seems not to matter to some
                                  people that thet addressing a senior clergy member rudely. How can
                                  it not matter that these are men who not only gave many years of their
                                  lives over to study of the Scriptures, holy Fathers, church Tradition
                                  (I speak now of those clergy members who attended seminary), but also
                                  have spent years tending their flocks, caring for people? How many of
                                  us 'lower' and 'non-clergy' people have made that kind of
                                  whole life commitment to God, people and the Church?

                                  Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                                  Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                                  met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                                  whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                                  experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                                  they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                                  presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                                  how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                                  administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                                  secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                                  to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!

                                  That is not to say that Priests (these or any) and Bishops can't be
                                  wrong, and they can't be questioned. NOT at all. They are MEN and
                                  they make mistakes. But question them with respect, please, and with
                                  "brotherly love"!

                                  I did not mean to discourage anyone's expression of concerns or
                                  heartaches. But I do believe such expressions should be made in a
                                  manner decorous and becoming to an Orthodox Christian, without virtual
                                  sneers.

                                  With that thought, it being Forgiveness Sunday, I ask the forgiveness
                                  of all and do sincerely wish each person an edifying Great Lent.

                                  In Christ's love,
                                  Elizabeth
                                • Michael Nikitin
                                  Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have met but do not know
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
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                                    "Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                                    Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                                    met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                                    whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                                    experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                                    they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                                    presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                                    how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                                    administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                                    secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                                    to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!"

                                    Clergy with large parishes get paid well. On top of that some receive
                                    bording for free. They also get paid for Baptisms, marriages and burials.
                                    And their lifes are as comfy if not more comfortable than some of ours.

                                    There are clergy with small parishes that cannot sustain them. These clergy
                                    have to work,serve,do baptisms,marriages and burials and not get paid. Their
                                    lifes are not so comfortable, especially if they have children.
                                    These clergy don't post on the lists. They are too busy helping their
                                    parishioners spiritually.

                                    Just as laypeople, clergy should also not address laypeople with sarcasm or
                                    ill will.

                                    I ask forgiveness and wish everyone a spiritually growing lent.

                                    Michael N.

                                    From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things
                                    Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:36:37 -0000



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                                  • sergerust2002
                                    S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST ! TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: Who is Vethiy Den mi that we sing on the holiday of Meeting of our Lord I believe? Isn t it our Savior?
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                      S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST !

                                      TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

                                      Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                                      Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?
                                      (Michael Nikitine, post 7990, Mar 4, 2003)


                                      WE GOT 3 CONCORDING ANSWERS:

                                      He who is pictured is Christ, the "Ancient of Days",
                                      not God the Father.
                                      (Staphanos, post 7985, Mar 3, 2003)

                                      Our east wall includes, at its apex, Christ the Ancient of Days ...
                                      (fr James Baglien, post 7999, Mar 5, 2003)

                                      Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the
                                      stikhiras of the Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes
                                      in his hands the Ancient of Days..."
                                      (fr Alexander Lebedeff, post 8006, Mar 6, 2003)


                                      HERE IS A 4-TH ANSWER, OPPOSING THE PREVIOUS 3:

                                      « Now `tis time that our Discourse should celebrate God (Whose
                                      Names are many) as "Omnipotent" and "Ancient of Days." The former
                                      title is given Him because ... [about omnipotence] ... And "Ancient
                                      of Days" is a title given to God because He is the Eternity of all
                                      things and their Time and is anterior to Days and anterior to
                                      Eternity and Time. And the titles "Time", "Day", "Season",
                                      and "Eternity" must be applied to Him in a divine sense, to mean One
                                      Who is utterly incapable of all change and movement and, in His
                                      eternal motion, remains at rest ; and Who is the Cause whence
                                      Eternity, Time, and Days are derived. Wherefore in the Sacred
                                      Theophanies revealed in mystic Visions He is described as Ancient and
                                      yet as Young : the former title signifying that He is the Primal
                                      Being, existent from the Beginning through the entire process of the
                                      world onto the End. Or, as the divine Initiator [presumably
                                      Hierotheus] tells us, either term implies the Primal Being of God :
                                      the term "Ancient" signifying that He is First in point of Time, and
                                      the term "Young" that he possesses the Primacy in point of Number,
                                      since Unity and the properties of Unity have a primacy over the more
                                      advanced numbers ... [about time and eternity] ... And God we must
                                      celebrate as both Eternity and Time, as the Cause of all Time and
                                      Eternity and as the Ancient of Days ; as before Time and above Time
                                      and producing all the variety of times and seasons ; and again, as
                                      existing before Eternal Ages, in that He is before Eternity and above
                                      Eternity and His Kingdom is the Kingdom of all the Eternal Ages.
                                      Amen.» (St Dyonisius the Areopagite, The Divine Names, chapter 10)


                                      ANY HINT?

                                      SERGE RUST
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