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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things

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  • Fr. Anthony Nelson
    ... What s worse? ... a question quite frequently asked by those who have no other argument to defend that which is wrong. In this case, neither is worse:
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 2 8:58 PM
      antiquariu@... wrote:

      >exercise a bit of judgement. What's worse? An icon of a Roman Catholic
      >saint who loved animals and preached kindness to all of God's creation, or a
      >weeping icon fraudulently presented to extract offerings from the flock?
      >We've seen both.

      "What's worse?" ... a question quite frequently asked by those who have no
      other argument to defend that which is wrong. In this case, neither is
      worse: both are wrong, both are unOrthodox and therefore unworthy of
      Orthodox Christians.

      Francis, by the way, was also likely a demoniac - or at least so beset by
      prelest as to present the so-called "stigmata," as have other deluded
      individuals in the RCRO.


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    • stefanvpavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@netscap
      Have you ever been at Mar Sabba s outside Jerusalem. In their main Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you pejoratively describe below. When
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 3 12:49 AM
        Have you ever been at Mar Sabba's outside Jerusalem. In their main
        Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you
        pejoratively describe below. When I came into the church there the
        very first time, I stood, jaw dropped open, gawking at what I saw.
        The Abbot came up to me a started to give me a lecture on
        Iconographic symbolism, the FIGHT against the heresy of the FILIOQUE
        and a history of the various stages of iconographic painting of the
        Monastery walls. It took me a bit to break into his fervent apology,
        and I explained to him that in my own church, back in California, I
        had Icons on my ceiling JUST LIKE THE ONES HERE! Then I told him of
        the Cathedral in San Francisco were the Holy relics of Saint John are
        laid out, and that their also, the Icon is in the DOME. Only then did
        he realize that I was not SCANDALIZED, and that I had found historic
        foundation in support of the iconography of my home parish, in no
        less a historic place like Saint Savva's Jerusalem.
        Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
        <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
        >
        > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > Dear Vladimir H,
        > Oh, I forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox Churches
        the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ( I
        know that those churches that are closer to Rome do this, because
        that is the way it is done in the Roman Church
        > Love in Christ,
        > Sub - deacon Lawrence
        > antiquariu@a... wrote:In a message dated 3/1/2003 11:13:39 AM
        Eastern Standard Time,
        > larrymost2002@y... writes:
        >
        >
        > > Glory to Jesus Christ - Glory to Him forever
        > > I'm sorry, but when I was in the OCA church, I never saw an ikon
        to "St.
        > > Francis". nor did I see any troparion or kontakion for him. That
        dosen't
        > > mean that they don't exist, just that at St. Nicholas we never
        saw or heard
        > > of them. It seems like we used to refeer to him as "Blessed
        Francis",
        > > although I could be wrong.
        > > Love in Christ,
        > > Sub-deacon Lawrence
        > >
        >
        > Dear in-Christ List!
        >
        > I have indeed seen an icon of St Francis, but it was in Greece. I
        have also
        > been told (but not personally seen) that such an icon exists on
        Athos. I
        > have also seen icons of Plato, Socrates and other non-Orthodox
        folks, and
        > have even been told by Greek adherents of the faith that these were
        > appropriate because they would have been Orthodox if they had had
        half a
        > chance. And then I've seen Russian icons of St Christopher looking
        a lot
        > more like Rin-Tin-Tin than I would hope. And finally, there is a
        great
        > Ukrainian icon of Bogdan Khmel'nits'kyy. I guess this all goes to
        show that
        > veneration of any particular saint is not necessarily a pan-
        Orthodox matter,
        > and that iconography can and frequently does have a distinctly
        local
        > character. Frankly, since no one holds a gun to our heads and
        tells us which
        > icons to venerate, we do have some God-given choice. This allows
        us to
        > exercise a bit of judgement. What's worse? An icon of a Roman
        Catholic
        > saint who loved animals and preached kindness to all of God's
        creation, or a
        > weeping icon fraudulently presented to extract offerings from the
        flock?
        > We've seen both.
        >
        > In Christ,
        >
        > Vladimir Hindrichs
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
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      • Michael Nikitin
        In their main Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as youpejoratively describe below. When I came into the church there the very first time, I
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 3 8:55 AM
          "In their main Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as
          youpejoratively describe below. When I came into the church there the
          very first time, I stood, jaw dropped open, gawking at what I saw."

          Fr. Stefan, it puzzles me when we sing in panihida, Irmos 9: It is
          impossible for human eye to see God...

          Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
          forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
          depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
          priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
          Father ?

          Michael N.


          From: "stefanvpavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...>"
          <StefanVPavlenko@...>
          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
          things
          Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:49:04 -0000

          Have you ever been at Mar Sabba's outside Jerusalem. In their main
          Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you
          pejoratively describe below. When I came into the church there the
          very first time, I stood, jaw dropped open, gawking at what I saw.
          The Abbot came up to me a started to give me a lecture on
          Iconographic symbolism, the FIGHT against the heresy of the FILIOQUE
          and a history of the various stages of iconographic painting of the
          Monastery walls. It took me a bit to break into his fervent apology,
          and I explained to him that in my own church, back in California, I
          had Icons on my ceiling JUST LIKE THE ONES HERE! Then I told him of
          the Cathedral in San Francisco were the Holy relics of Saint John are
          laid out, and that their also, the Icon is in the DOME. Only then did
          he realize that I was not SCANDALIZED, and that I had found historic
          foundation in support of the iconography of my home parish, in no
          less a historic place like Saint Savva's Jerusalem.
          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
          <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
          >
          >GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Vladimir H, Oh, I
          forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox Churches
          the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ( I
          know that those churches that are closer to Rome do this, because
          that is the way it is done in the Roman Church
          >Love in Christ, Sub - deacon Lawrence





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        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
          ... Take a good look at the Odigitria of the Russian Diaspora-- the Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God. At the top you will see a beautiful icon of God the
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 3 12:01 PM
            Michael Nikitin wrote:


            >Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
            >forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?


            Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
            Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God.

            At the top you will see a beautiful icon of God the Father, added during
            the time of Ivan IV, long after the Stoglavyj Sobor.

            Should we throw out the Kursk-Root Icon as "heretical"?

            And, regarding the Council of the Hundred Chapters, I suggest that Michael
            reads its 31st Canon:

            "if anyone should not sign himself with two fingers, as Christ also, let
            him be accursed (anathema)."

            "Ashche kto ne znamenaetsya dvema persty, jakozhe i Khristos, da est'
            proklyat."

            How many fingers do **you** sign yourself with, Michael?

            If not two, then you are anathema and accursed.

            >

            With love in Christ,

            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
          • antiquariu@aol.com
            In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should have paid more
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 3 8:55 PM
              In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              mikeniki@... writes:


              > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
              > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
              > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
              > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
              > Father ?
              >

              Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should have
              paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
              later...

              Love,

              Vladimir Hindrichs


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Nikitin
              You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but took them personaly and started hitting me with a stick. Answer my question, please? Who is Vethiy Den mi
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 4 8:06 AM
                You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
                took them personaly and started hitting me with a
                stick.

                Answer my question, please?

                Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?


                Michael N.

                From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
                things
                Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:01:12 -0800

                Michael Nikitin wrote:

                >Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
                >forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?

                Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
                Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God.

                At the top you will see a beautiful icon of God the Father, added during
                the time of Ivan IV, long after the Stoglavyj Sobor.

                Should we throw out the Kursk-Root Icon as "heretical"?

                And, regarding the Council of the Hundred Chapters, I suggest that Michael
                reads its 31st Canon:

                "if anyone should not sign himself with two fingers, as Christ also, let
                him be accursed (anathema)."

                "Ashche kto ne znamenaetsya dvema persty, jakozhe i Khristos, da est'
                proklyat."

                How many fingers do **you** sign yourself with, Michael?

                If not two, then you are anathema and accursed.


                With love in Christ,

                Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

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              • Joachim Wertz
                What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were seen by the
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 4 8:13 AM
                  What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
                  where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
                  seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
                  Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
                  times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
                  appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
                  Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
                  at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
                  awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in the
                  cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
                  Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
                  by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?

                  In Christ,

                  Joachim Wertz

                  From: antiquariu@...
                  Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:55:28 EST
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
                  things


                  In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  mikeniki@... writes:


                  > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
                  > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
                  > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
                  > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
                  > Father ?
                  >

                  Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should
                  have
                  paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
                  later...

                  Love,

                  Vladimir Hindrichs


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • larry most
                  GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear everyone talking about the icons, When I said that I kind of crigne when I see God the Father, depicted as
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 4 8:45 AM
                    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                    Dear everyone talking about the icons,
                    When I said that I kind of "crigne" when I see God the Father, depicted as an old man with a triangular halo, that's all that I do, I just "chringe". I'm son offended or anything like that. We have a c ouple of icons, one that depicts the creation of the cosmos and the other shows God naming the animals and off to the side they show Christ (because He is God). I didn't mean to start a fire over this I was just making a comment. I do know that on the Roman Gospel that some times there is an icon of God the Father (as an old man). It was just a comment.
                    Love in Christ,
                    Sub-deacon Lawrence
                    antiquariu@... wrote:In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    mikeniki@... writes:


                    > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
                    > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
                    > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
                    > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
                    > Father ?
                    >

                    Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should have
                    paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
                    later...

                    Love,

                    Vladimir Hindrichs


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                    ... I didn t see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr. Stefan something. But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 4 11:35 AM
                      >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
                      >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
                      >stick.

                      I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
                      Stefan something.

                      But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
                      so I replied to that postion of your post.




                      >Answer my question, please?
                      >
                      >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                      >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

                      Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
                      Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

                      However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
                      depictions of God the Father in general.

                      Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
                      the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
                      Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
                      is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

                      There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
                      man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

                      And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
                      miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
                      Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
                      icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
                      Abroad.



                      With love in Christ,

                      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                    • antiquariu@aol.com
                      In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@pcnet.com ... The Plot Thickens! Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 4 3:24 PM
                        In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@...
                        writes:


                        > What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
                        > where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
                        > seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
                        > Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
                        > times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
                        > appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
                        > Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
                        > at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
                        > awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in
                        > the
                        > cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
                        > Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
                        > by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?
                        >

                        The Plot Thickens!

                        Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look suspiciously like
                        Babylonian sphinxes -- for example, the seraphim. The notion of angels has
                        evolved over time -- the Pan-Semitic form continued the 'terrible seraph' of
                        Babylonian antiquity until well into the iconoclastic period. The warrior
                        males started appearing in about the 7th and 8th centuries, gradually
                        becoming sexless, and at least in western art with some greek overtones,
                        becoming females, reaching their artistic perfection in the PreRaphaelite
                        period in England. It's this form which is most pervasive in Western
                        Thought, at least outside of seminaries.

                        But then again, we haven't seen any burning bushes either, and I have several
                        of them on post StoGlav icons. And should Andrej Rublev have depicted the
                        oask of Mambre only, since we know that that was and is seeable?

                        I don't really care. I accept icons as a means of opening up my small mind
                        and heart, and looking into heaven. I find icons highly capable of putting
                        me into a prayerful state of mind (a la window into heaven). When I say my
                        prayers, I really don't debate whether St Luke did the prototype, and I have
                        no problem with the outpourings of faith that have given us three-armed
                        Madonnas, fly-fishing monks, dog-headed saints, warrior Ukies, triangular
                        halos, or any of a number of other symbolic devices, because they are
                        outpourings of faith, and despite the cringing on the part of some,
                        allegorical. Just because the state of the art had not advanced much beyong
                        flat portraiture doesn't mean all of our saints were flat, nor that those
                        that aren't are heretical. And speaking of things seen and unseen - have any
                        among us -- Pharisees included -- ever seen a halo, triangular or otherwise?
                        Sounds like an allegorical device to me, just to make sure we see that we are
                        in fact talking about something holy. So, Father, Son, Bird, or Rublevian
                        Visitation of Abraham - does it really matter if it fulfills not the StovGlav
                        functions, but some earlier one -- window into heaven and facilitator of a
                        prayerful state? Besides, when did we ever come up with the idea of temporal
                        infallibility? The StoGlav has already been overtaken by events on a number
                        of its theses, like triple Alleluias, washing, shaving, etc. I now
                        understand where the inspiration for some of our Russophiles comes from.

                        Love,

                        Vladimir Hindrichs


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James Baglien
                        ... Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ... Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you pejoratively
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 5 2:31 PM
                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most wrote:
                          > Oh, I forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox
                          Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular
                          halo.

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StefanVPavlenko wrote:
                          > Have you ever been at Mar Sabba's outside Jerusalem. In their main
                          Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you
                          pejoratively describe.

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                          > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                          explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
                          > Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
                          Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God. At the top you will see a
                          beautiful icon of God the Father, added during the time of Ivan IV,
                          long after the Stoglavyj Sobor. Should we throw out the Kursk-Root
                          Icon as "heretical"?

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StephenATL <sbu@b...> wrote:
                          > I would beg to differ Father. He who is pictured is Christ, the
                          "Ancient of Days", not God the Father. The Church does strictly
                          forbid the depiction of God the Father in icons......... He who has
                          never been seen by any man, cannot be depicted in any image.

                          There are really *two* questions in this thread: 1) is the icon
                          prototype of God the Father portrayed as an old man desirable, and 2)
                          how should we regard old icons of this type, when we encounter them?

                          With respect to the first question, our parish had a recent
                          experience with the issue. Our east wall includes, at its apex,
                          Christ the Ancient of Days. When the design was first submitted for
                          review in Jordanville, this element received considerably scrutiny
                          to ensure that it was indeed *Christ* that was being depicted, not
                          the Father. Reference was made to a composition of this type (of
                          Christ) by Archbishop Alipy in a church in Cleveland, and Frs. Andrei
                          and Luke signed off. When shown the design, Bishop Kyrill expressed
                          the same concerns and question. Based on our experience, and
                          conversations with a number of iconographers in the ROCOR, I suspect
                          that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the Father as
                          an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                          willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                          the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                          for stumbling sensitive parishioners.

                          That said, it is indisputable that icons of the prototype in question
                          have been around for a long time, and been the subjects of much
                          veneration (as have a number of icons written in a modernistic style,
                          that stream myrrh and are associated with miracles . . .). I think
                          that the second question was succinctly answered, in another context,
                          by St. John of SF, when he was asked about old icons written in an
                          egregiously Latinate style. His instuctions were something along the
                          lines of don't get any more like that, but don't stir up trouble by
                          crusading against such icons when they have enjoyed long veneration.

                          In IC XC,

                          Priest James Baglien
                        • for4z@aol.com
                          In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 6 3:50 AM
                            In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                            jbaglien@... writes:
                            >
                            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                            > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                            > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                            > ......
                            > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                            > Father as
                            > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                            > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                            > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                            > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                            >



                            Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                            an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                            wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                            Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                            working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                            decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                            of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                            cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                            architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                            height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                            were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                            -Nick Zaharov
                            PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                            construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                            Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                            church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                            Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • for4z@aol.com
                            In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 6 3:52 AM
                              In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                              jbaglien@... writes:
                              >
                              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                              > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                              > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                              > ......
                              > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                              > Father as
                              > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                              > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                              > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                              > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                              >



                              Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                              an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                              wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                              Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                              working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                              decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                              of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                              cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                              architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                              height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                              were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                              -Nick Zaharov
                              PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                              construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                              Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                              church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                              Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Kiril Bart
                              Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So,
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 6 12:22 PM
                                Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father are of a relatively new origin.
                                Subdeacon Kirill
                                "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:


                                >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
                                >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
                                >stick.

                                I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
                                Stefan something.

                                But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
                                so I replied to that postion of your post.




                                >Answer my question, please?
                                >
                                >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                                >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

                                Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
                                Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

                                However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
                                depictions of God the Father in general.

                                Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
                                the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
                                Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
                                is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

                                There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
                                man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

                                And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
                                miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
                                Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
                                icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
                                Abroad.



                                With love in Christ,

                                Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Michael Nikitin
                                This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian Church. Michael N. From: for4z@aol.com Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com To:
                                Message 15 of 25 , Mar 7 5:15 AM
                                  This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian
                                  Church.


                                  Michael N.

                                  From: for4z@...
                                  Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
                                  things
                                  Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:52:27 EST

                                  In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                  jbaglien@... writes:
                                  >
                                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                                  > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                                  > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                                  > ......
                                  > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                                  > Father as
                                  > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                                  > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                                  > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                                  > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                                  >



                                  Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                                  an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                                  wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                                  Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                                  working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                                  decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                                  of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                                  cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                                  architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                                  height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                                  were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                                  -Nick Zaharov
                                  PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                                  construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                                  Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                                  church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                                  Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                                  ... Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled The Historical
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Mar 7 9:12 AM
                                    Kirill Bart wrote:

                                    >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is
                                    >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know.
                                    >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father
                                    >are of a relatively new origin.
                                    >Subdeacon Kirill


                                    Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech
                                    at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                                    Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother
                                    of God for the Russian Diaspora."

                                    This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox Tradition."

                                    So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the Kursk-Root
                                    icon.

                                    This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor Ivanovich
                                    in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the Image of
                                    the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His Tsaritza,
                                    Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.

                                    This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in 1295.

                                    Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.

                                    Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new origin"
                                    is unsubstantiated.


                                    With love in Christ,

                                    Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                  • boulia_1
                                    Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing high-ranking clergy! I
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Mar 7 12:59 PM
                                      Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                                      and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                                      high-ranking clergy!

                                      I remember your address, Fr. Alexander. It was quite a
                                      wonderful, beautiful event, the 700th anniversary of our Hodigitria's
                                      miraculous icon... joyous, uplifting, despite a frigid early winter
                                      blast, and memorable.

                                      In Christ's love,
                                      Elizabeth

                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                                      <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                                      > Kirill Bart wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of
                                      Kursk-Korenaya is
                                      > >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we
                                      all know.
                                      > >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the
                                      Father
                                      > >are of a relatively new origin.
                                      > >Subdeacon Kirill
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote
                                      speech
                                      > at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                                      > Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the
                                      Mother
                                      > of God for the Russian Diaspora."
                                      >
                                      > This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox
                                      Tradition."
                                      >
                                      > So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the
                                      Kursk-Root
                                      > icon.
                                      >
                                      > This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor
                                      Ivanovich
                                      > in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the
                                      Image of
                                      > the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His
                                      Tsaritza,
                                      > Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.
                                      >
                                      > This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in
                                      1295.
                                      >
                                      > Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.
                                      >
                                      > Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new
                                      origin"
                                      > is unsubstantiated.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > With love in Christ,
                                      >
                                      > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                    • for4z@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily dictate or ascribe
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Mar 8 10:47 AM
                                        In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                        eledkovsky@... writes:


                                        > Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                                        > and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                                        > high-ranking clergy!
                                        >

                                        Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily
                                        dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field. Our church
                                        is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures. This list is not
                                        about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone else with
                                        a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or explanation.
                                        I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to question, to
                                        be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these exercises help
                                        us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in evaluating
                                        history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of education;
                                        the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love. This
                                        list is meant to allow all of us "low ranking clergy and non clergy members"
                                        to express our thoughts, our concerns, and our heartaches. Not all of us are
                                        professors, not all of us are saints. Contributors to this list should not
                                        be put down or discourgaged from doing so....

                                        -Nick Zaharov


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • boulia_1
                                        ... necesarily ... EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to point out is
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Mar 9 9:36 AM
                                          Nick Zaharov wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not
                                          necesarily
                                          > dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field.


                                          EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not
                                          *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to
                                          point out is that, all too often on this list, someone
                                          (sometimes signing off as "subdeacon" or "reader") posts some
                                          know-it-all comment directed at one of our Archpriests in a haughty
                                          manner that implies an opinion that he is opening a revelation to that
                                          Archpriest. Sometimes this disresepectful attitude may not be
                                          intentional, but, often, it seems to be.

                                          As an aside, until I started reading this list, I never heard of
                                          subdeacons and readers going around referring to themselves that way.
                                          No one I know in the Synod HQ, for example, goes around calling George
                                          Schatiloff (the senior subdeacon there, subdeacon to Metr. Philaret,
                                          so, wearing the orar for at least 25 years) "Subdeacon George" (in
                                          English or Russian) nor can I imagine him EVER signing his name that
                                          way. The way I always understood it, these ranks were only formally
                                          used in ecclesiastical documents (ukaze, gramata, that sort of
                                          thing). Only upper clergy (Deacons or higher) were addressed in a
                                          manner that acknowledged their position. So, it seems odd to me, this
                                          fashion -- somewhat in line with some of the cross-cultural etiquette
                                          that Mr. Kozyreff wrote about quite intelligently a few posts earlier.

                                          NZ wrote further:
                                          > Our church
                                          > is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures.

                                          EAL responds: Who said anything about infallability or assigned 'cult'
                                          status to anyone?

                                          NZ continued:
                                          >This list is
                                          not
                                          > about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone
                                          >else with
                                          > a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or
                                          >explanation.
                                          > I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to
                                          question, to
                                          > be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these
                                          exercises help
                                          > us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in
                                          evaluating
                                          > history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of
                                          education;
                                          > the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love.

                                          EAL agrees wholeheartedly. For better (but often for worse), this
                                          medium is a communication tool. But it is one which is easily abused,
                                          allowing for carelessness that few would dare allow in face-to-face
                                          discussions. I object to displays of disrespect. And I especially
                                          object to displays of disrespect toward clergy. Agree or disagree with
                                          the person, but one must always show love and regard for their "san"
                                          (sorry I don't know the best translation for this word)! We do not
                                          assign cult status to ranks, but we do respect ranks in Orthodoxy.

                                          Hence, I find it embarassing when it seems not to matter to some
                                          people that thet addressing a senior clergy member rudely. How can
                                          it not matter that these are men who not only gave many years of their
                                          lives over to study of the Scriptures, holy Fathers, church Tradition
                                          (I speak now of those clergy members who attended seminary), but also
                                          have spent years tending their flocks, caring for people? How many of
                                          us 'lower' and 'non-clergy' people have made that kind of
                                          whole life commitment to God, people and the Church?

                                          Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                                          Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                                          met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                                          whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                                          experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                                          they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                                          presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                                          how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                                          administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                                          secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                                          to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!

                                          That is not to say that Priests (these or any) and Bishops can't be
                                          wrong, and they can't be questioned. NOT at all. They are MEN and
                                          they make mistakes. But question them with respect, please, and with
                                          "brotherly love"!

                                          I did not mean to discourage anyone's expression of concerns or
                                          heartaches. But I do believe such expressions should be made in a
                                          manner decorous and becoming to an Orthodox Christian, without virtual
                                          sneers.

                                          With that thought, it being Forgiveness Sunday, I ask the forgiveness
                                          of all and do sincerely wish each person an edifying Great Lent.

                                          In Christ's love,
                                          Elizabeth
                                        • Michael Nikitin
                                          Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have met but do not know
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Mar 9 6:43 PM
                                            "Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                                            Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                                            met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                                            whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                                            experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                                            they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                                            presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                                            how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                                            administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                                            secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                                            to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!"

                                            Clergy with large parishes get paid well. On top of that some receive
                                            bording for free. They also get paid for Baptisms, marriages and burials.
                                            And their lifes are as comfy if not more comfortable than some of ours.

                                            There are clergy with small parishes that cannot sustain them. These clergy
                                            have to work,serve,do baptisms,marriages and burials and not get paid. Their
                                            lifes are not so comfortable, especially if they have children.
                                            These clergy don't post on the lists. They are too busy helping their
                                            parishioners spiritually.

                                            Just as laypeople, clergy should also not address laypeople with sarcasm or
                                            ill will.

                                            I ask forgiveness and wish everyone a spiritually growing lent.

                                            Michael N.

                                            From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                                            Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things
                                            Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:36:37 -0000



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                                          • sergerust2002
                                            S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST ! TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: Who is Vethiy Den mi that we sing on the holiday of Meeting of our Lord I believe? Isn t it our Savior?
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jun 5, 2003
                                              S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST !

                                              TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

                                              Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                                              Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?
                                              (Michael Nikitine, post 7990, Mar 4, 2003)


                                              WE GOT 3 CONCORDING ANSWERS:

                                              He who is pictured is Christ, the "Ancient of Days",
                                              not God the Father.
                                              (Staphanos, post 7985, Mar 3, 2003)

                                              Our east wall includes, at its apex, Christ the Ancient of Days ...
                                              (fr James Baglien, post 7999, Mar 5, 2003)

                                              Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the
                                              stikhiras of the Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes
                                              in his hands the Ancient of Days..."
                                              (fr Alexander Lebedeff, post 8006, Mar 6, 2003)


                                              HERE IS A 4-TH ANSWER, OPPOSING THE PREVIOUS 3:

                                              « Now `tis time that our Discourse should celebrate God (Whose
                                              Names are many) as "Omnipotent" and "Ancient of Days." The former
                                              title is given Him because ... [about omnipotence] ... And "Ancient
                                              of Days" is a title given to God because He is the Eternity of all
                                              things and their Time and is anterior to Days and anterior to
                                              Eternity and Time. And the titles "Time", "Day", "Season",
                                              and "Eternity" must be applied to Him in a divine sense, to mean One
                                              Who is utterly incapable of all change and movement and, in His
                                              eternal motion, remains at rest ; and Who is the Cause whence
                                              Eternity, Time, and Days are derived. Wherefore in the Sacred
                                              Theophanies revealed in mystic Visions He is described as Ancient and
                                              yet as Young : the former title signifying that He is the Primal
                                              Being, existent from the Beginning through the entire process of the
                                              world onto the End. Or, as the divine Initiator [presumably
                                              Hierotheus] tells us, either term implies the Primal Being of God :
                                              the term "Ancient" signifying that He is First in point of Time, and
                                              the term "Young" that he possesses the Primacy in point of Number,
                                              since Unity and the properties of Unity have a primacy over the more
                                              advanced numbers ... [about time and eternity] ... And God we must
                                              celebrate as both Eternity and Time, as the Cause of all Time and
                                              Eternity and as the Ancient of Days ; as before Time and above Time
                                              and producing all the variety of times and seasons ; and again, as
                                              existing before Eternal Ages, in that He is before Eternity and above
                                              Eternity and His Kingdom is the Kingdom of all the Eternal Ages.
                                              Amen.» (St Dyonisius the Areopagite, The Divine Names, chapter 10)


                                              ANY HINT?

                                              SERGE RUST
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