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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things

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  • larry most
    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Reader John, God the Father being portrayed as an Old Man. God the Father is not usually depicted in Icons.
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 2, 2003
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      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
      Dear Reader John,
      God the Father being portrayed as an Old Man. God the Father is not usually depicted in Icons.
      Love in Christ,
      Sub-deacon Lawrence
      "Reader John <rdrjohn2000@...>" <rdrjohn2000@...> wrote:
      Dear Subdeacon Lawrence,

      Would you please elaborate here. What is it that causes you to
      cringe: an icon that depicts God the Father, or the triangular halo?

      In Christ,
      Rdr John
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
      <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
      >
      > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
      > Dear Vladimir H,
      > Oh, I forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox Churches
      the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ( I
      know that those churches that are closer to Rome do this, because
      that is the way it is done in the Roman Church
      > Love in Christ,
      > Sub - deacon Lawrence
      > antiquariu@a... wrote:In a message dated 3/1/2003 11:13:39 AM
      Eastern Standard Time,
      > larrymost2002@y... writes:
      >
      >
      > > Glory to Jesus Christ - Glory to Him forever
      > > I'm sorry, but when I was in the OCA church, I never saw an ikon
      to "St.
      > > Francis". nor did I see any troparion or kontakion for him. That
      dosen't
      > > mean that they don't exist, just that at St. Nicholas we never
      saw or heard
      > > of them. It seems like we used to refeer to him as "Blessed
      Francis",
      > > although I could be wrong.
      > > Love in Christ,
      > > Sub-deacon Lawrence
      > >
      >
      > Dear in-Christ List!
      >
      > I have indeed seen an icon of St Francis, but it was in Greece. I
      have also
      > been told (but not personally seen) that such an icon exists on
      Athos. I
      > have also seen icons of Plato, Socrates and other non-Orthodox
      folks, and
      > have even been told by Greek adherents of the faith that these were
      > appropriate because they would have been Orthodox if they had had
      half a
      > chance. And then I've seen Russian icons of St Christopher looking
      a lot
      > more like Rin-Tin-Tin than I would hope. And finally, there is a
      great
      > Ukrainian icon of Bogdan Khmel'nits'kyy. I guess this all goes to
      show that
      > veneration of any particular saint is not necessarily a pan-
      Orthodox matter,
      > and that iconography can and frequently does have a distinctly
      local
      > character. Frankly, since no one holds a gun to our heads and
      tells us which
      > icons to venerate, we do have some God-given choice. This allows
      us to
      > exercise a bit of judgement. What's worse? An icon of a Roman
      Catholic
      > saint who loved animals and preached kindness to all of God's
      creation, or a
      > weeping icon fraudulently presented to extract offerings from the
      flock?
      > We've seen both.
      >
      > In Christ,
      >
      > Vladimir Hindrichs
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
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    • Fr. Anthony Nelson
      ... What s worse? ... a question quite frequently asked by those who have no other argument to defend that which is wrong. In this case, neither is worse:
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 2, 2003
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        antiquariu@... wrote:

        >exercise a bit of judgement. What's worse? An icon of a Roman Catholic
        >saint who loved animals and preached kindness to all of God's creation, or a
        >weeping icon fraudulently presented to extract offerings from the flock?
        >We've seen both.

        "What's worse?" ... a question quite frequently asked by those who have no
        other argument to defend that which is wrong. In this case, neither is
        worse: both are wrong, both are unOrthodox and therefore unworthy of
        Orthodox Christians.

        Francis, by the way, was also likely a demoniac - or at least so beset by
        prelest as to present the so-called "stigmata," as have other deluded
        individuals in the RCRO.


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      • stefanvpavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@netscap
        Have you ever been at Mar Sabba s outside Jerusalem. In their main Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you pejoratively describe below. When
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 3, 2003
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          Have you ever been at Mar Sabba's outside Jerusalem. In their main
          Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you
          pejoratively describe below. When I came into the church there the
          very first time, I stood, jaw dropped open, gawking at what I saw.
          The Abbot came up to me a started to give me a lecture on
          Iconographic symbolism, the FIGHT against the heresy of the FILIOQUE
          and a history of the various stages of iconographic painting of the
          Monastery walls. It took me a bit to break into his fervent apology,
          and I explained to him that in my own church, back in California, I
          had Icons on my ceiling JUST LIKE THE ONES HERE! Then I told him of
          the Cathedral in San Francisco were the Holy relics of Saint John are
          laid out, and that their also, the Icon is in the DOME. Only then did
          he realize that I was not SCANDALIZED, and that I had found historic
          foundation in support of the iconography of my home parish, in no
          less a historic place like Saint Savva's Jerusalem.
          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
          <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
          >
          > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
          > Dear Vladimir H,
          > Oh, I forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox Churches
          the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ( I
          know that those churches that are closer to Rome do this, because
          that is the way it is done in the Roman Church
          > Love in Christ,
          > Sub - deacon Lawrence
          > antiquariu@a... wrote:In a message dated 3/1/2003 11:13:39 AM
          Eastern Standard Time,
          > larrymost2002@y... writes:
          >
          >
          > > Glory to Jesus Christ - Glory to Him forever
          > > I'm sorry, but when I was in the OCA church, I never saw an ikon
          to "St.
          > > Francis". nor did I see any troparion or kontakion for him. That
          dosen't
          > > mean that they don't exist, just that at St. Nicholas we never
          saw or heard
          > > of them. It seems like we used to refeer to him as "Blessed
          Francis",
          > > although I could be wrong.
          > > Love in Christ,
          > > Sub-deacon Lawrence
          > >
          >
          > Dear in-Christ List!
          >
          > I have indeed seen an icon of St Francis, but it was in Greece. I
          have also
          > been told (but not personally seen) that such an icon exists on
          Athos. I
          > have also seen icons of Plato, Socrates and other non-Orthodox
          folks, and
          > have even been told by Greek adherents of the faith that these were
          > appropriate because they would have been Orthodox if they had had
          half a
          > chance. And then I've seen Russian icons of St Christopher looking
          a lot
          > more like Rin-Tin-Tin than I would hope. And finally, there is a
          great
          > Ukrainian icon of Bogdan Khmel'nits'kyy. I guess this all goes to
          show that
          > veneration of any particular saint is not necessarily a pan-
          Orthodox matter,
          > and that iconography can and frequently does have a distinctly
          local
          > character. Frankly, since no one holds a gun to our heads and
          tells us which
          > icons to venerate, we do have some God-given choice. This allows
          us to
          > exercise a bit of judgement. What's worse? An icon of a Roman
          Catholic
          > saint who loved animals and preached kindness to all of God's
          creation, or a
          > weeping icon fraudulently presented to extract offerings from the
          flock?
          > We've seen both.
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Vladimir Hindrichs
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
          >
          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          >
          >
          >
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          Service.
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Nikitin
          In their main Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as youpejoratively describe below. When I came into the church there the very first time, I
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 3, 2003
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            "In their main Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as
            youpejoratively describe below. When I came into the church there the
            very first time, I stood, jaw dropped open, gawking at what I saw."

            Fr. Stefan, it puzzles me when we sing in panihida, Irmos 9: It is
            impossible for human eye to see God...

            Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
            forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
            depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
            priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
            Father ?

            Michael N.


            From: "stefanvpavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...>"
            <StefanVPavlenko@...>
            Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
            things
            Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:49:04 -0000

            Have you ever been at Mar Sabba's outside Jerusalem. In their main
            Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you
            pejoratively describe below. When I came into the church there the
            very first time, I stood, jaw dropped open, gawking at what I saw.
            The Abbot came up to me a started to give me a lecture on
            Iconographic symbolism, the FIGHT against the heresy of the FILIOQUE
            and a history of the various stages of iconographic painting of the
            Monastery walls. It took me a bit to break into his fervent apology,
            and I explained to him that in my own church, back in California, I
            had Icons on my ceiling JUST LIKE THE ONES HERE! Then I told him of
            the Cathedral in San Francisco were the Holy relics of Saint John are
            laid out, and that their also, the Icon is in the DOME. Only then did
            he realize that I was not SCANDALIZED, and that I had found historic
            foundation in support of the iconography of my home parish, in no
            less a historic place like Saint Savva's Jerusalem.
            Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko


            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
            <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
            >
            >GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear Vladimir H, Oh, I
            forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox Churches
            the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ( I
            know that those churches that are closer to Rome do this, because
            that is the way it is done in the Roman Church
            >Love in Christ, Sub - deacon Lawrence





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          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
            ... Take a good look at the Odigitria of the Russian Diaspora-- the Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God. At the top you will see a beautiful icon of God the
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 3, 2003
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              Michael Nikitin wrote:


              >Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
              >forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?


              Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
              Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God.

              At the top you will see a beautiful icon of God the Father, added during
              the time of Ivan IV, long after the Stoglavyj Sobor.

              Should we throw out the Kursk-Root Icon as "heretical"?

              And, regarding the Council of the Hundred Chapters, I suggest that Michael
              reads its 31st Canon:

              "if anyone should not sign himself with two fingers, as Christ also, let
              him be accursed (anathema)."

              "Ashche kto ne znamenaetsya dvema persty, jakozhe i Khristos, da est'
              proklyat."

              How many fingers do **you** sign yourself with, Michael?

              If not two, then you are anathema and accursed.

              >

              With love in Christ,

              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
            • antiquariu@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should have paid more
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 3, 2003
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                In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                mikeniki@... writes:


                > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
                > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
                > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
                > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
                > Father ?
                >

                Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should have
                paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
                later...

                Love,

                Vladimir Hindrichs


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael Nikitin
                You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but took them personaly and started hitting me with a stick. Answer my question, please? Who is Vethiy Den mi
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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                  You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
                  took them personaly and started hitting me with a
                  stick.

                  Answer my question, please?

                  Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                  Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?


                  Michael N.

                  From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                  Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
                  things
                  Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:01:12 -0800

                  Michael Nikitin wrote:

                  >Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
                  >forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?

                  Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
                  Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God.

                  At the top you will see a beautiful icon of God the Father, added during
                  the time of Ivan IV, long after the Stoglavyj Sobor.

                  Should we throw out the Kursk-Root Icon as "heretical"?

                  And, regarding the Council of the Hundred Chapters, I suggest that Michael
                  reads its 31st Canon:

                  "if anyone should not sign himself with two fingers, as Christ also, let
                  him be accursed (anathema)."

                  "Ashche kto ne znamenaetsya dvema persty, jakozhe i Khristos, da est'
                  proklyat."

                  How many fingers do **you** sign yourself with, Michael?

                  If not two, then you are anathema and accursed.


                  With love in Christ,

                  Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

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                • Joachim Wertz
                  What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were seen by the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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                    What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
                    where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
                    seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
                    Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
                    times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
                    appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
                    Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
                    at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
                    awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in the
                    cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
                    Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
                    by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?

                    In Christ,

                    Joachim Wertz

                    From: antiquariu@...
                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:55:28 EST
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
                    things


                    In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    mikeniki@... writes:


                    > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
                    > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
                    > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
                    > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
                    > Father ?
                    >

                    Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should
                    have
                    paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
                    later...

                    Love,

                    Vladimir Hindrichs


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                  • larry most
                    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear everyone talking about the icons, When I said that I kind of crigne when I see God the Father, depicted as
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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                      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
                      Dear everyone talking about the icons,
                      When I said that I kind of "crigne" when I see God the Father, depicted as an old man with a triangular halo, that's all that I do, I just "chringe". I'm son offended or anything like that. We have a c ouple of icons, one that depicts the creation of the cosmos and the other shows God naming the animals and off to the side they show Christ (because He is God). I didn't mean to start a fire over this I was just making a comment. I do know that on the Roman Gospel that some times there is an icon of God the Father (as an old man). It was just a comment.
                      Love in Christ,
                      Sub-deacon Lawrence
                      antiquariu@... wrote:In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      mikeniki@... writes:


                      > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which explicitly
                      > forbids depiction of icons of God the Father? That icons can only
                      > depict what human eye had seen and no one had seen God the Father. A
                      > priests reads quietly prayers at liturgy, what do they say about God the
                      > Father ?
                      >

                      Hmmm... I guess those insensitive iconographers in the Holy Land should have
                      paid more attention to what a Russian Sobor would do several centuries
                      later...

                      Love,

                      Vladimir Hindrichs


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                      ... I didn t see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr. Stefan something. But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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                        >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
                        >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
                        >stick.

                        I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
                        Stefan something.

                        But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
                        so I replied to that postion of your post.




                        >Answer my question, please?
                        >
                        >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                        >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

                        Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
                        Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

                        However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
                        depictions of God the Father in general.

                        Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
                        the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
                        Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
                        is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

                        There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
                        man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

                        And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
                        miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
                        Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
                        icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
                        Abroad.



                        With love in Christ,

                        Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                      • antiquariu@aol.com
                        In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@pcnet.com ... The Plot Thickens! Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 4, 2003
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                          In a message dated 3/4/2003 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, wertz@...
                          writes:


                          > What about depicting angels in icons? Aside from the Book of Revelation
                          > where the visions are of different character, it seems that the angels were
                          > seen by the human eye at least in the following cases: Raphael (Book of
                          > Tobias), Gabriel ( the Annunciation), when an angel appears to Joseph (2
                          > times, I think), when an angel appears to the shepherds, when an angel
                          > appeared to Zacharias in the Temple, when the angel appeared to the Myrrh
                          > Bearers, when an angel appeared to Abraham at the "sacrifice" of Isaac and
                          > at the Hospitality. Now since in these instances angels were seen by people
                          > awake, does this justify our depicting them in icons, individually as in
                          > the
                          > cases of Gabriel and Raphael, and generically in the cases where the
                          > Scriptures merely say "an angel"? Has the Archangel Michael ever been seen
                          > by "human eyes"? And what about Guardian Angels?
                          >

                          The Plot Thickens!

                          Well, if you believe early Byzantine art, angels look suspiciously like
                          Babylonian sphinxes -- for example, the seraphim. The notion of angels has
                          evolved over time -- the Pan-Semitic form continued the 'terrible seraph' of
                          Babylonian antiquity until well into the iconoclastic period. The warrior
                          males started appearing in about the 7th and 8th centuries, gradually
                          becoming sexless, and at least in western art with some greek overtones,
                          becoming females, reaching their artistic perfection in the PreRaphaelite
                          period in England. It's this form which is most pervasive in Western
                          Thought, at least outside of seminaries.

                          But then again, we haven't seen any burning bushes either, and I have several
                          of them on post StoGlav icons. And should Andrej Rublev have depicted the
                          oask of Mambre only, since we know that that was and is seeable?

                          I don't really care. I accept icons as a means of opening up my small mind
                          and heart, and looking into heaven. I find icons highly capable of putting
                          me into a prayerful state of mind (a la window into heaven). When I say my
                          prayers, I really don't debate whether St Luke did the prototype, and I have
                          no problem with the outpourings of faith that have given us three-armed
                          Madonnas, fly-fishing monks, dog-headed saints, warrior Ukies, triangular
                          halos, or any of a number of other symbolic devices, because they are
                          outpourings of faith, and despite the cringing on the part of some,
                          allegorical. Just because the state of the art had not advanced much beyong
                          flat portraiture doesn't mean all of our saints were flat, nor that those
                          that aren't are heretical. And speaking of things seen and unseen - have any
                          among us -- Pharisees included -- ever seen a halo, triangular or otherwise?
                          Sounds like an allegorical device to me, just to make sure we see that we are
                          in fact talking about something holy. So, Father, Son, Bird, or Rublevian
                          Visitation of Abraham - does it really matter if it fulfills not the StovGlav
                          functions, but some earlier one -- window into heaven and facilitator of a
                          prayerful state? Besides, when did we ever come up with the idea of temporal
                          infallibility? The StoGlav has already been overtaken by events on a number
                          of its theses, like triple Alleluias, washing, shaving, etc. I now
                          understand where the inspiration for some of our Russophiles comes from.

                          Love,

                          Vladimir Hindrichs


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James Baglien
                          ... Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular halo. ... Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you pejoratively
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 5, 2003
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                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most wrote:
                            > Oh, I forgot, I sort of cringe when I see in some Orthodox
                            Churches the Ikon of God the Father, as an old man with a triangular
                            halo.

                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StefanVPavlenko wrote:
                            > Have you ever been at Mar Sabba's outside Jerusalem. In their main
                            Cathedral the on the walls are depicted the Trinity as you
                            pejoratively describe.

                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                            > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                            explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?

                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
                            > Take a good look at the "Odigitria" of the Russian Diaspora-- the
                            Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God. At the top you will see a
                            beautiful icon of God the Father, added during the time of Ivan IV,
                            long after the Stoglavyj Sobor. Should we throw out the Kursk-Root
                            Icon as "heretical"?

                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, StephenATL <sbu@b...> wrote:
                            > I would beg to differ Father. He who is pictured is Christ, the
                            "Ancient of Days", not God the Father. The Church does strictly
                            forbid the depiction of God the Father in icons......... He who has
                            never been seen by any man, cannot be depicted in any image.

                            There are really *two* questions in this thread: 1) is the icon
                            prototype of God the Father portrayed as an old man desirable, and 2)
                            how should we regard old icons of this type, when we encounter them?

                            With respect to the first question, our parish had a recent
                            experience with the issue. Our east wall includes, at its apex,
                            Christ the Ancient of Days. When the design was first submitted for
                            review in Jordanville, this element received considerably scrutiny
                            to ensure that it was indeed *Christ* that was being depicted, not
                            the Father. Reference was made to a composition of this type (of
                            Christ) by Archbishop Alipy in a church in Cleveland, and Frs. Andrei
                            and Luke signed off. When shown the design, Bishop Kyrill expressed
                            the same concerns and question. Based on our experience, and
                            conversations with a number of iconographers in the ROCOR, I suspect
                            that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the Father as
                            an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                            willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                            the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                            for stumbling sensitive parishioners.

                            That said, it is indisputable that icons of the prototype in question
                            have been around for a long time, and been the subjects of much
                            veneration (as have a number of icons written in a modernistic style,
                            that stream myrrh and are associated with miracles . . .). I think
                            that the second question was succinctly answered, in another context,
                            by St. John of SF, when he was asked about old icons written in an
                            egregiously Latinate style. His instuctions were something along the
                            lines of don't get any more like that, but don't stir up trouble by
                            crusading against such icons when they have enjoyed long veneration.

                            In IC XC,

                            Priest James Baglien
                          • for4z@aol.com
                            In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                              jbaglien@... writes:
                              >
                              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                              > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                              > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                              > ......
                              > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                              > Father as
                              > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                              > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                              > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                              > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                              >



                              Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                              an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                              wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                              Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                              working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                              decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                              of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                              cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                              architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                              height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                              were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                              -Nick Zaharov
                              PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                              construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                              Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                              church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                              Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • for4z@aol.com
                              In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Russia s main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has an enormous icon
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                jbaglien@... writes:
                                >
                                > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                                > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                                > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                                > ......
                                > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                                > Father as
                                > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                                > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                                > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                                > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                                >



                                Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                                an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                                wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                                Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                                working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                                decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                                of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                                cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                                architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                                height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                                were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                                -Nick Zaharov
                                PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                                construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                                Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                                church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                                Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Kiril Bart
                                Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So,
                                Message 15 of 25 , Mar 6, 2003
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                                  Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know. So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father are of a relatively new origin.
                                  Subdeacon Kirill
                                  "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:


                                  >You did not answear my question, Fr. Alexander, but
                                  >took them personaly and started hitting me with a
                                  >stick.

                                  I didn't see a question addressed to me--I believe you were asking Fr.
                                  Stefan something.

                                  But you did bring up the Council of the Hundred Chapters as an authority,
                                  so I replied to that postion of your post.




                                  >Answer my question, please?
                                  >
                                  >Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                                  >Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?

                                  Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the stikhiras of the
                                  Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes in his hands the Ancient of Days. . ."

                                  However, the original question was not about the Ancient of Days, but about
                                  depictions of God the Father in general.

                                  Stephen, too, is wrong here. Because on the Kursk-Root Icon, the Icon at
                                  the top is not labeled "Ancient of Days" and does not have the halo used on
                                  Icons of Christ--but it is clearly labeled "Gospod' Savaoth" and the halo
                                  is a double square halo (making it have eight points).

                                  There are iconic examples of the depiction of the Lord Sabaoth (as an old
                                  man) going back to before the 14th century in Russia.

                                  And--in the Church Abroad an icon of God the Father as an old man
                                  miraculously renewed itself in the Convent of the Vladimir Icon of the
                                  Mother of God in Shanghai, and was deeply venerated as a miracle-working
                                  icon by Metropolitan Philaret, St. John of Shanghai and the entire Church
                                  Abroad.



                                  With love in Christ,

                                  Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Michael Nikitin
                                  This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian Church. Michael N. From: for4z@aol.com Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com To:
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    This just goes to show how much influence the Latins had on the Russian
                                    Church.


                                    Michael N.

                                    From: for4z@...
                                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other
                                    things
                                    Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:52:27 EST

                                    In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:34:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                    jbaglien@... writes:
                                    >
                                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Nikitin wrote:
                                    > > Wasn't it the Sto Glaviy Sobor in the Russian Church which
                                    > explicitly forbids depiction of icons of God the Father?
                                    > ......
                                    > I suspect that someone wanting a contemporary composition of God the
                                    > Father as
                                    > an old man in their church might have some difficultly finding a
                                    > willing iconographer and/or an episcopal blessing, both because of
                                    > the theological issues implicit in the prototype, and the potential
                                    > for stumbling sensitive parishioners.
                                    >



                                    Russia's main cathedral, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow, has
                                    an enormous icon of the Lord God Sabaoth in the main dome, over 100 feet
                                    wide, where God the Father is portrayed as an old man. Metropolitan St.
                                    Philaret of Moscow played an integral part in helping to plan the Cathedral,
                                    working closely with the architect Konstantine Ton, influencing such design
                                    decisions as the octagonal chapel-like iconastasis and choosing the subjects
                                    of the sculpture frieze on the cathedral's exterior. Furthermore, this
                                    cathedral was built during the "Russian Renassiance," when Russian church
                                    architecture, iconography, music, and ecclesiastical art were at their
                                    height. Thus, if at one point depictions of God the Father as an old man
                                    were outlawed in Russia, this later changed.

                                    -Nick Zaharov
                                    PS..In the 16th Century the Russian Church also banned and halted the
                                    construction of "tent-style" churches, such as St. Basil's (Protection) on
                                    Red Square. Despite this, our Church Abroad has a few examples of such
                                    church types: Jordanville Cathedral and Transfiguration Cathedral in Los
                                    Angeles, the construction of the latter still being unfinished........



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    _________________________________________________________________
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                                  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                                    ... Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled The Historical
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
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                                      Kirill Bart wrote:

                                      >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of Kursk-Korenaya is
                                      >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we all know.
                                      >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the Father
                                      >are of a relatively new origin.
                                      >Subdeacon Kirill


                                      Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote speech
                                      at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                                      Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother
                                      of God for the Russian Diaspora."

                                      This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox Tradition."

                                      So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the Kursk-Root
                                      icon.

                                      This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor Ivanovich
                                      in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the Image of
                                      the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His Tsaritza,
                                      Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.

                                      This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in 1295.

                                      Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.

                                      Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new origin"
                                      is unsubstantiated.


                                      With love in Christ,

                                      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                    • boulia_1
                                      Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing high-ranking clergy! I
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Mar 7, 2003
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                                        and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                                        high-ranking clergy!

                                        I remember your address, Fr. Alexander. It was quite a
                                        wonderful, beautiful event, the 700th anniversary of our Hodigitria's
                                        miraculous icon... joyous, uplifting, despite a frigid early winter
                                        blast, and memorable.

                                        In Christ's love,
                                        Elizabeth

                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                                        <lebedeff@w...> wrote:
                                        > Kirill Bart wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >Fr. Alexander, you should know that icon of Theotokos of
                                        Kursk-Korenaya is
                                        > >only a small icon in a middle of an icon with blue cover that we
                                        all know.
                                        > >So, borders had been added in a later times and image of God the
                                        Father
                                        > >are of a relatively new origin.
                                        > >Subdeacon Kirill
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Kirill should know that I was the person honored to give the keynote
                                        speech
                                        > at the 700th Anniversary of the Kursk-Root Icon in 1995--titled "The
                                        > Historical and Religious Significance of the Kursk-Root Icon of the
                                        Mother
                                        > of God for the Russian Diaspora."
                                        >
                                        > This was published as a brochure and published also in "Orthodox
                                        Tradition."
                                        >
                                        > So, I believe I am as familiar as anyone with the history of the
                                        Kursk-Root
                                        > icon.
                                        >
                                        > This icon was brought to Moscow at the direction of Tsar Feodor
                                        Ivanovich
                                        > in 1597, who commanded that the additions to the Icon--namely the
                                        Image of
                                        > the Lord Sabaoth and the Prophets holding scrolls be made. His
                                        Tsaritza,
                                        > Irina Feodorovna adorned the Icon with a precious riza.
                                        >
                                        > This was three hundred years after the appearance of the Icon in
                                        1295.
                                        >
                                        > Since the addition, more than four hundred years have passed.
                                        >
                                        > Therefore, calling the image of God the Father "of a relatively new
                                        origin"
                                        > is unsubstantiated.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > With love in Christ,
                                        >
                                        > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                      • for4z@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily dictate or ascribe
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Mar 8, 2003
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          In a message dated 3/7/2003 2:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                          eledkovsky@... writes:


                                          > Well, the readers of this list should be used to low ranking clergy
                                          > and non clergy members thinking they know better than long-standing
                                          > high-ranking clergy!
                                          >

                                          Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not necesarily
                                          dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field. Our church
                                          is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures. This list is not
                                          about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone else with
                                          a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or explanation.
                                          I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to question, to
                                          be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these exercises help
                                          us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in evaluating
                                          history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of education;
                                          the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love. This
                                          list is meant to allow all of us "low ranking clergy and non clergy members"
                                          to express our thoughts, our concerns, and our heartaches. Not all of us are
                                          professors, not all of us are saints. Contributors to this list should not
                                          be put down or discourgaged from doing so....

                                          -Nick Zaharov


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • boulia_1
                                          ... necesarily ... EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to point out is
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Nick Zaharov wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Well, sadly, or perhaps refreshingly, age and rank does not
                                            necesarily
                                            > dictate or ascribe knowledge in a particular discipline or field.


                                            EAL replies: Dear Nick, you are right, but knowledge is not
                                            *precluded* by age, rank and experience, either! What I meant to
                                            point out is that, all too often on this list, someone
                                            (sometimes signing off as "subdeacon" or "reader") posts some
                                            know-it-all comment directed at one of our Archpriests in a haughty
                                            manner that implies an opinion that he is opening a revelation to that
                                            Archpriest. Sometimes this disresepectful attitude may not be
                                            intentional, but, often, it seems to be.

                                            As an aside, until I started reading this list, I never heard of
                                            subdeacons and readers going around referring to themselves that way.
                                            No one I know in the Synod HQ, for example, goes around calling George
                                            Schatiloff (the senior subdeacon there, subdeacon to Metr. Philaret,
                                            so, wearing the orar for at least 25 years) "Subdeacon George" (in
                                            English or Russian) nor can I imagine him EVER signing his name that
                                            way. The way I always understood it, these ranks were only formally
                                            used in ecclesiastical documents (ukaze, gramata, that sort of
                                            thing). Only upper clergy (Deacons or higher) were addressed in a
                                            manner that acknowledged their position. So, it seems odd to me, this
                                            fashion -- somewhat in line with some of the cross-cultural etiquette
                                            that Mr. Kozyreff wrote about quite intelligently a few posts earlier.

                                            NZ wrote further:
                                            > Our church
                                            > is not a cult; we do not have infallible cult figures.

                                            EAL responds: Who said anything about infallability or assigned 'cult'
                                            status to anyone?

                                            NZ continued:
                                            >This list is
                                            not
                                            > about who knows more on a certain topic or who can "outdo" someone
                                            >else with
                                            > a more clever, witty, catchy, or even more arrogant response or
                                            >explanation.
                                            > I think it is beneficial and crucial to promote discussion, to
                                            question, to
                                            > be answered, and to provide answers ourselves. All of these
                                            exercises help
                                            > us grow in our common understanding of current issues and in
                                            evaluating
                                            > history and the teachings of our fathers. This is the approach of
                                            education;
                                            > the approach of sharing information; the approach of brotherly love.

                                            EAL agrees wholeheartedly. For better (but often for worse), this
                                            medium is a communication tool. But it is one which is easily abused,
                                            allowing for carelessness that few would dare allow in face-to-face
                                            discussions. I object to displays of disrespect. And I especially
                                            object to displays of disrespect toward clergy. Agree or disagree with
                                            the person, but one must always show love and regard for their "san"
                                            (sorry I don't know the best translation for this word)! We do not
                                            assign cult status to ranks, but we do respect ranks in Orthodoxy.

                                            Hence, I find it embarassing when it seems not to matter to some
                                            people that thet addressing a senior clergy member rudely. How can
                                            it not matter that these are men who not only gave many years of their
                                            lives over to study of the Scriptures, holy Fathers, church Tradition
                                            (I speak now of those clergy members who attended seminary), but also
                                            have spent years tending their flocks, caring for people? How many of
                                            us 'lower' and 'non-clergy' people have made that kind of
                                            whole life commitment to God, people and the Church?

                                            Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                                            Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                                            met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                                            whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                                            experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                                            they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                                            presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                                            how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                                            administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                                            secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                                            to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!

                                            That is not to say that Priests (these or any) and Bishops can't be
                                            wrong, and they can't be questioned. NOT at all. They are MEN and
                                            they make mistakes. But question them with respect, please, and with
                                            "brotherly love"!

                                            I did not mean to discourage anyone's expression of concerns or
                                            heartaches. But I do believe such expressions should be made in a
                                            manner decorous and becoming to an Orthodox Christian, without virtual
                                            sneers.

                                            With that thought, it being Forgiveness Sunday, I ask the forgiveness
                                            of all and do sincerely wish each person an edifying Great Lent.

                                            In Christ's love,
                                            Elizabeth
                                          • Michael Nikitin
                                            Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have met but do not know
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Mar 9, 2003
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              "Thinking specifically of some of this lists more frequent posting
                                              Archpriests, Frs. John (whom I have never met), Alexander (whom I have
                                              met but do not know well) and Stefan (whom I am lucky to know and
                                              whom I love dearly), together they very nearly have a century of
                                              experience, education and WISDOM. How many hundreds of people have
                                              they baptized, married, buried? How many THOUSANDS of times have they
                                              presided over Divine Liturgy and the holiest of mysteries -- and to
                                              how many thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of people have they
                                              administered Holy Communion? And we, who have not given up a comfy
                                              secular life ("I think I'll sleep late just this one Sunday..."), dare
                                              to address such people with sarcasm or ill will?!"

                                              Clergy with large parishes get paid well. On top of that some receive
                                              bording for free. They also get paid for Baptisms, marriages and burials.
                                              And their lifes are as comfy if not more comfortable than some of ours.

                                              There are clergy with small parishes that cannot sustain them. These clergy
                                              have to work,serve,do baptisms,marriages and burials and not get paid. Their
                                              lifes are not so comfortable, especially if they have children.
                                              These clergy don't post on the lists. They are too busy helping their
                                              parishioners spiritually.

                                              Just as laypeople, clergy should also not address laypeople with sarcasm or
                                              ill will.

                                              I ask forgiveness and wish everyone a spiritually growing lent.

                                              Michael N.

                                              From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                                              Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Iconography, was: a variety of other things
                                              Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:36:37 -0000



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                                            • sergerust2002
                                              S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST ! TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: Who is Vethiy Den mi that we sing on the holiday of Meeting of our Lord I believe? Isn t it our Savior?
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                                S PRAZDNIKOM, DEAR LIST !

                                                TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

                                                Who is "Vethiy Den'mi" that we sing on the holiday of
                                                Meeting of our Lord" I believe? Isn't it our Savior?
                                                (Michael Nikitine, post 7990, Mar 4, 2003)


                                                WE GOT 3 CONCORDING ANSWERS:

                                                He who is pictured is Christ, the "Ancient of Days",
                                                not God the Father.
                                                (Staphanos, post 7985, Mar 3, 2003)

                                                Our east wall includes, at its apex, Christ the Ancient of Days ...
                                                (fr James Baglien, post 7999, Mar 5, 2003)

                                                Of course the "Ancient of Days" refers to Our Savior--the
                                                stikhiras of the Feast say "Today the Elder Symeon takes
                                                in his hands the Ancient of Days..."
                                                (fr Alexander Lebedeff, post 8006, Mar 6, 2003)


                                                HERE IS A 4-TH ANSWER, OPPOSING THE PREVIOUS 3:

                                                « Now `tis time that our Discourse should celebrate God (Whose
                                                Names are many) as "Omnipotent" and "Ancient of Days." The former
                                                title is given Him because ... [about omnipotence] ... And "Ancient
                                                of Days" is a title given to God because He is the Eternity of all
                                                things and their Time and is anterior to Days and anterior to
                                                Eternity and Time. And the titles "Time", "Day", "Season",
                                                and "Eternity" must be applied to Him in a divine sense, to mean One
                                                Who is utterly incapable of all change and movement and, in His
                                                eternal motion, remains at rest ; and Who is the Cause whence
                                                Eternity, Time, and Days are derived. Wherefore in the Sacred
                                                Theophanies revealed in mystic Visions He is described as Ancient and
                                                yet as Young : the former title signifying that He is the Primal
                                                Being, existent from the Beginning through the entire process of the
                                                world onto the End. Or, as the divine Initiator [presumably
                                                Hierotheus] tells us, either term implies the Primal Being of God :
                                                the term "Ancient" signifying that He is First in point of Time, and
                                                the term "Young" that he possesses the Primacy in point of Number,
                                                since Unity and the properties of Unity have a primacy over the more
                                                advanced numbers ... [about time and eternity] ... And God we must
                                                celebrate as both Eternity and Time, as the Cause of all Time and
                                                Eternity and as the Ancient of Days ; as before Time and above Time
                                                and producing all the variety of times and seasons ; and again, as
                                                existing before Eternal Ages, in that He is before Eternity and above
                                                Eternity and His Kingdom is the Kingdom of all the Eternal Ages.
                                                Amen.» (St Dyonisius the Areopagite, The Divine Names, chapter 10)


                                                ANY HINT?

                                                SERGE RUST
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