Re: Met.Anastassy's Last Will and Testament of 1957
- Dear subdeacon Most,
Thank you for your response.
1. Sergianism - They've inherited that. In a few generations that
should go away.
a. Never in her history did the Church teach about a heresy: "You may
join it, it will disappear with time". One may never join a lie. The
Church is the truth. There is no Church without truth. There is no
salvation outside the Church.
b. Sergianism, is saying that a sin of collaboration may be necessary
to defend the faith against persecution. As was repeatedly said on
this forum, not only is sergianism totally unorthodox, but it is a
recurrent temptation in the history of persecutions against the
Church. The Church will be persecuted again, and we must have clear
ideas about this.
2. Ecumenism- They are a major Orthodox Church (probably the largest
by number) and they DO live in the world, so they must communicate
with the other religions, no matter how wrong they are.
Now you are apologising ecumenism. I will not enter this discussion.
Ecumenism is a heresy and has been anathematised. If you do not take
this into account, you are putting yourself out of the Church.
3. Schism- That too will heal if we only let the Holy Spirit work.
You may never say "I am joining the schism because with time it will
heal". A schism is worse than a heresy and even martyrdom cannot
redeem it. The essence of the Church is its unity. Breaking it is one
of the worst possible sins.
4. Not being canonical - That very well may be, but are you sure that
EVERY Orthodox Church faithful follow EVERY SINGLE cannon?
What I mean is that the MP is out of the apostolic succession, and
thus is not a Church. You cannot, if you are a pseudo bishop, that is
to say not a successor of the apostles, become one progressively as
time goes by.
5. Attacks on ROCOR (grabbing Monasteries) Yes, that's true, BUT if
the situation was reversed would ROCOR or another church grab their
property? You never know. ( look at the situation on Mt. Athos).
This is irrelevant. If I had lived under Soviet rule, possibly I
would have been a sergianist. The fact that I might have forcefully
seized a monastery myself does not change the fact that doing so is a
crime, whoever the author of the crime. I cannot say that stealing is
not a sin because I might have stolen in given circumstances.
In essence, what you are saying is the opposite of what the ROCOR has
always taught. You cannot say "Out of love for men, let us betray the
truth, and let us join the MP before it converts. God will see to it
that the truth prevail eventually". This is unorthodox.
You are right in saying that we should not expect quick results, but
this does not in anyway entail that we should join the MP before it
"For if they have doctrines opposed to ours, it is not fitting to be
mixed up with them for this cause alone. [...] What do you
say? "Their faith is the same; these men are orthodox"? Why, then,
are they not with us?" St. John Chrysostom
"It is therefore unlawful, and a profanation, and an act the
punishment of which is death, to love to associate with unholy
heretics, and to unite yourself to their communion". St. Cyril of
--- In email@example.com, larry most
>emerged from a 75 year nightmare.
> GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
> Dear Vladimir Kozyreff,
> I know all these things, but you must remember that they just
> 1. Sergianism - They've inherited that. In a few generations thatshould go away.
> 2. Ecumenism- They are a major Orthodox Church (probably thelargest by number) and they DO live in the world, so they must
communicate with the other religions, no matter how wrong they are.
> 3. Schism- That too will heal if we only let the Holy Spirit work.that EVERY Orthodox Church faithfull follow EVERY SINGLE cannon?
> 4. Not being canonical - That very well may be, but are you sure
> 5. Attacks on ROCOR (grabbing Monastarys) Yes, that's true, BUT ifthe situation was reversed would ROCOR or anyother church grab their
property? You never know. ( look at the situation on Mt. Athos)
> I have always believed that Christ will take care of His Church. Icertainly didn't expect the Moscow Patriarchal Church to be perfect
after 75 years of intensive persecution. I'm sure that the only
reason that it survived at all was through the help of the Holy
> As I said in one of my other posts "Rome wasn't built in a day"Please just remember "If it is true, it will stand, If not it will
> Love in Christ,wrote:Dear Subdeacon Most,
> Sub-deacon Lawrence
> "vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
> I am not the Vladimir to whom you asked the question, but let me
> the following.become
> You write ironically "because you sure know all of their faults".
> You know them too, if you are orthodox.
> Their faults are:
> 1. Sergianism
> 2. Ecumenism
> 3. Schism
> 4. Not being canonical.
> 5. Attacks on ROCOR (for instance, seizing of monasteries)
> 5. Obstinacy in all of the above.
> What they should do is:
> 1. Renounce the above faults
> 2. Repent
> 3. Join orthodoxy
> You know all of this very well. This has always been the essence of
> ROCOR's teaching.
> In God,
> Vladimir Kozyreff
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, larry most
> <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
> > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
> > Dear Vladimir,
> > Could you PLEASE tell me how the Moscow Patriiarchate could
> NOT heretical, because you sure know all of their faultsIcons
> > Yours in Christ,
> > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
> > VladMoss@a... wrote:In a message dated 27/02/03 01:10:31 GMT
> Standard Time,
> > StefanVPavlenko@n... writes:
> > > So --allowing: building Churches, filling monasteries with
> > > and nuns, publishing Sacred Books and religious materials,
> > > religion to children, having processions of the Cross with
> > > Holy Relics across the countryside, making pilgrimages to Holy
> > > blessing homes, offices, and factories, establishing chaplains
> > > the military, baptizing, marrying, burying millions of
> > > over Russia--- is the same as flinging the faithful into Gulags
> > > their death.
> > >
> > > The Holy Fathers of our Russian Orthodox Church would thank God
> > > the changes and would have made the APPROPRIATE ADJUSTMENTS!
> > First, heretics are heretics because they confess heresy, not (in
> the first
> > place) because they persecute anyone. So even if it were true
> the MP hasEcumenical
> > ceased persecuting the Orthodox (which is emphatically not true),
> it would
> > not take away their heresy so long as they continue to confess it.
> > Secondly, heretics cease being heretics only when they REPENT of
> their heresy
> > and anathematize it. That is the order laid down by the
> > Until then they are outside the Church.
> > Thirdly, heretics must repent before those who have remained
> > and seek to be readmitted into the Church of the True Orthodox.
> That is what
> > the repentant iconoclast bishops did before the Seventh
> > And there are thousands of other examples.
> > Fourthly, APPROPRIATE adjustments are indeed in order.
> INAPPROPRIATE ones,
> > however, - such as accepting heretics as Orthodox before they
> > of their heresy - are always out of order.
> > Fifthly, the real tragedy of recent years, it seems to me, is
> > heretics are being given no encouragement to repent by those who
> used to be
> > the true Orthodox. So if a bishop of the MP wishes to repent of
> > and ecumenism, where is he to go? He must find a Synod before
> which to
> > repent. But if such-and-such a Synod is already trying to seek
> communion with
> > that bishop BEFORE he has repented, and is even congratulating
> on thehis
> > wonderful state of his spiritual life, on the "regeneration" of
> > (when he knows from personal experience how unregenerate it is),
> what is he
> > to do?
> > The great evil of ecumenism is that it tries to take away the
> > repentance. It says: "You don't have to repent. You're alright,
> > God is betrayed by silence, and God is betrayed by false love
> takes awayService.
> > the stimulus to, and need for, repentance.
> > Vladimir Moss
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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- Vladimir Moss wrote:
I have faith - that is,
> certain belief - in the prophecies of the saints concerning theresurrection
> of Holy Russia through a True Orthodox Tsar who will overthrow almostall the
> hierarchs of the official church. You do not have this faith.JRS: Did it ever occur to you that what you are yearning for is quite
contrary to the Canons?
However, we ought not to be as concerned about the future, as about the
present. Who can say how long any of us might live?
Somewhere C. S. Lewis wrote that the communists lived for the future,
and justified everything they did by the utopia that was to come. But
while their expected utopia never came, what was real was all the
destruction and murder they committed trying to achieve it.
It is quite possible to live for a "future Tsardom" that we may never
see. But all of the discord, the schisms, the confusion of the faithful
supposedly justified by that future reign of justice on earth, is real
Fr. John R. Shaw