Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sainthood and Infallibility [was: Mixed Marriages [w...

Expand Messages
  • Dr. J.L. Lultschik
    I concur completely with the post below; though I am only a lurker, if I didn t know the theoretical organization of this list, I would never realize that it
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 4, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      I concur completely with the post below; though I am only a lurker, if I didn't know the theoretical organization of this list, I would never realize that it is ostensibly for "members or friends of ROCOR". How I wish it were truly that! Another suggestion - perhaps list membership should be limited to those who acknowledge the authority of Metropolitan Laurus as First Hierarch of ROCOR, and who belong to and worship at parishes that commemmorate him. At the discretion of list moderators, non-ROCOR members could be permitted to join, with the proviso that posts hostile to Met. Laurus and/or ROCOR would result in immediate dismissal from the list. If this is not possible, IS there a list out there that is truly friendly to ROCOR?

      My name is Katherine Lultschik. I belong to the parish of the Church of the Nativity of Christ (Old Rite) in Erie, PA, under Bishop Daniel of Erie and the Old Rite.

      Respectfully,

      Katherine Lultschik
      Church of the Nativity (Old Rite)
      where His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus and His Grace Bishop Daniel are commemmorated.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: lmickle@...
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:42 PM
      Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sainthood and Infallibility [was: Mixed Marriages [w...



      >>> And those in this new/revised ROCOR ...[snip]...if this poor sinner
      can see where this is all really leading, why cannot these brilliant people
      with all their degrees and educations and endless obfuscatory arguments?
      Makes one wonder, it does.
      >>> Timothy Fisher

      And it makes this reader wonder yet again, Fr. Mark, what the moderator
      means in describing this list as being for "members or friends of ROCOR."
      It is beginning to seem as if anyone who has left ROCOR for the omophorion
      of another bishop or bishops, or has walled himself off from ROCOR, or who
      has created a new hierarchy while still claiming to speak for the former
      First Hierarch of ROCOR, in short anyone who wants to rail against ROCOR,
      qualifies as a friend or member. Would you please clarify things?

      a) If a poster denies the authority of Vl.Laurus, the First Hierarch of
      ROCOR and of the Synod of Bishops which recognizes him as First Hierarch,
      within the context of this list is such a poster a member of ROCOR, or is he
      a friend of ROCOR, or neither?
      b) If a poster defends the Panteleimonite schism and its progency, in the
      context of this list, is he a member of ROCOR, or is he a friend of ROCOR,
      or neither?
      c) If a poster is permitted to post well over 100 messages in the matter of
      only a few months, repeatedly castigating the diocesan bishop of the diocese
      in which he allegedly resides, and rejecting his authority, in the context
      of this list, does he remain a member of ROCOR? Does he remain a friend of
      ROCOR?
      d) Would you please restate the list policy with respect to ad hominem
      attacks. Does one's affiliation with a group for or against ROCOR affect
      the degree to which the policy is enforced?


      I would like to thank Frs. John Shaw and Alexander Lebedeff for going the
      extra mile, and repeatedly defending ROCOR and its historical path against
      the never-ending distortions now spamming the orthodox-synod list. You have
      greater patience and persistence than I.

      Yet one more attempt at a modest proposal: Could we have a show of hands?
      Would each member of this list, including any lurkers out there, please
      identify himself - by actual name and not klichka - and identify the
      diocesan bishop under whose omophorion he/she? (I had previously tried to
      get a straight answer on this from several of our more prolific posters, to
      no avail; the only respondent reverted to yet another series of rhetorical
      questions.) It would be nice to know at least how many members of the list
      are under a bishop who continues to recognize the authority of the
      Metropolitan Laurus and the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR, vs. the number who
      are under individuals who have been defrocked by ROCOR.

      Waiting with bated breath,

      Deacon Leonid Mickle
      Cathedral of St. John the Baptist, Washington DC
      where His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus and His Grace Bp. Gabriel are
      commemorated


      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      ADVERTISEMENT




      Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Reader John <rdrjohn2000@yahoo.com>
      Fr. John Shaw: In itself, it suggests something to hide. You draw an erroneous conclusion Fr. John. As you well know, I ve never been secretive of who I am or
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 5, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Fr. John Shaw: In itself, it suggests something to hide.

        You draw an erroneous conclusion Fr. John. As you well know, I've
        never been secretive of who I am or the parish of which I am a
        member. Your inference otherwise is patently false.



        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
        <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
        > After Protodeacon Leonid Mickle had asked how many list members
        > attended churches where Metropolitan Laurus and the local ROCOR
        bishop
        > were commemorated,
        >
        > Reader John (Qualls?) wrote:
        >
        > > Sorry Fr. Deacon Leonid,
        > >
        > > Neither I, nor anyone on this list have any obligation to do as
        you
        > > ask. If the moderator, whoever he is, asks us to do so, well
        that is
        > > something else.
        >
        > JRS: This is a curious response. In itself, it suggests something
        to
        > hide. Why? Presumably, this is a ROCOR list.
        >
        > In Christ
        > Fr. John R. Shaw
      • lmickle@concentric.net
        Father, bless! Thank you for having the courtesy to respond to my frivolous request! As Reader John (rdrjohn2000) has so succinctly pointed out, you had no
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 5, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Father, bless!

          Thank you for having the courtesy to respond to my frivolous request! As
          Reader John (rdrjohn2000) has so succinctly pointed out, you had no
          _obligation_ to do so. I had always assumed that elemental, common, courtesy
          was something to be expected of anyone on this list, member and friend of
          ROCOR alike; apparently it is not as popular as it once was...

          Thanks again for your reply, for your posts on this list, and for your
          tireless efforts in Christ's vineyard.

          Deacon Leonid Mickle



          >>>Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          >>>Orthodox Church of All Russian Saints
          >>>A parish of the Western American Diocese of the
          >>>Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia / Church Abroad

          >>>Commemorating:
          >>>His Eminence Laurus, Metropolitan of Eastern America and New York,
          >>>Chief Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad
          >>>and Ruling Bishop
          >>>His Grace Kyrill Lord Bishop of San Francisco and Western America


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Reader John
          <rdrjohn2000@y...>" <rdrjohn2000@y...> wrote:
          > Sorry Fr. Deacon Leonid,
          >
          > Neither I, nor anyone on this list have any obligation to do as you
          > ask. If the moderator, whoever he is, asks us to do so, well that is
          > something else.
        • zina kochnaya
          I am not taking any sides, but this is absolutely ridiculous: A priest would come to a seminarian and tell him that it was NOT the metropolitan who wrote
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 5, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            I am not taking any sides, but this is absolutely
            ridiculous: A priest would come to a seminarian and
            tell him that it was NOT the metropolitan who wrote
            these letters, but he did.

            Fr. John must think that we are gullible and stupid.

            Zina

            --- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
            > Timothy Fischer wrote:
            >
            > > In a message dated 2/4/2003 5:36:24 PM Eastern
            > Standard Time,
            > > vrevjrs@... had written:
            > >
            > > > <<...the Sorrowful Epistles,
            > > >
            > > > JRS: These, as is or used to be generally known,
            > though issued over
            > his
            > > > signature, were actually written by
            > Protopresbyter George Grabbe.>>
            > >
            > > TF: Says who? Is this more of the rumor and
            > gossip mills working
            > > overtime? Where is your proof of this?
            >
            > JRS: Bishop Gregory (while he was still
            > Protopresbyter George Grabbe
            > and I was still a seminarian) told me so.
            >
            > But it was no secret in those days, at all...
            >
            > In Christ
            > Fr. John R. Shaw
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            __________________________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
            http://mailplus.yahoo.com
          • tfisher888@aol.com
            Timothy FISHER (NO c ) replies... OK, I concede that one. My sources agree that Metr. Philaret did not pen the Sorrowful Epistles... But so what? He signed
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 5, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Timothy FISHER (NO "c") replies...

              OK, I concede that one. My sources agree that Metr. Philaret did not pen
              the Sorrowful Epistles... But so what? He signed them and they were put out
              in his name as the First Hierarch of the ROCOR.... No different than a US
              Pres relying on speech writers. The CONTENT was what he agreed with and
              stood behind. And that the anathema was in the same Orthodox line of
              thinking. And that line of thinking was the public stand of ROCOR.
              And all it really does is prove that Vl. Gregory was a first class
              Orthodox theologian and ecclesiologist...

              Timothy FiSHer


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Hristofor
              ... You are welcome to wait with bated breath, please just don t hold it!! It takes folks awhle to contort themselves in order to provide some of the bizzare
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 5, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                lmickle@... wrote:

                >Waiting with bated breath,
                >
                >Deacon Leonid Mickle
                >Cathedral of St. John the Baptist, Washington DC
                >where His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus and His Grace Bp. Gabriel are
                >commemorated
                >
                You are welcome to wait with bated breath, please just don't hold it!!
                It takes folks awhle to contort themselves in order to provide some of
                the bizzare answers which were posted the last time.

                Hristofor Shashkin

                His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus and His Grace Bp. Gabriel are the bishops commemorated in our ROCA parish in Glen Cove.
              • Dr. J.L. Lultschik
                Trying again ... I concur with Fr. Deacon Leonid. Thank you for your post! Katherine Lultschik Church of the Nativity of Christ (Old Rite) Erie, PA where His
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 5, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Trying again ...

                  I concur with Fr. Deacon Leonid. Thank you for your post!

                  Katherine Lultschik
                  Church of the Nativity of Christ (Old Rite)
                  Erie, PA
                  where His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus and His Grace Bishop Daniel are commemmorated
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: lmickle@...
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:42 PM
                  Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sainthood and Infallibility [was: Mixed Marriages [w...




                  And it makes this reader wonder yet again, Fr. Mark, what the moderator
                  means in describing this list as being for "members or friends of ROCOR."
                  It is beginning to seem as if anyone who has left ROCOR for the omophorion
                  of another bishop or bishops, or has walled himself off from ROCOR, or who
                  has created a new hierarchy while still claiming to speak for the former
                  First Hierarch of ROCOR, in short anyone who wants to rail against ROCOR,
                  qualifies as a friend or member. Would you please clarify things?

                  a) If a poster denies the authority of Vl.Laurus, the First Hierarch of
                  ROCOR and of the Synod of Bishops which recognizes him as First Hierarch,
                  within the context of this list is such a poster a member of ROCOR, or is he
                  a friend of ROCOR, or neither?
                  b) If a poster defends the Panteleimonite schism and its progency, in the
                  context of this list, is he a member of ROCOR, or is he a friend of ROCOR,
                  or neither?
                  c) If a poster is permitted to post well over 100 messages in the matter of
                  only a few months, repeatedly castigating the diocesan bishop of the diocese
                  in which he allegedly resides, and rejecting his authority, in the context
                  of this list, does he remain a member of ROCOR? Does he remain a friend of
                  ROCOR?
                  d) Would you please restate the list policy with respect to ad hominem
                  attacks. Does one's affiliation with a group for or against ROCOR affect
                  the degree to which the policy is enforced?


                  I would like to thank Frs. John Shaw and Alexander Lebedeff for going the
                  extra mile, and repeatedly defending ROCOR and its historical path against
                  the never-ending distortions now spamming the orthodox-synod list. You have
                  greater patience and persistence than I.

                  Yet one more attempt at a modest proposal: Could we have a show of hands?
                  Would each member of this list, including any lurkers out there, please
                  identify himself - by actual name and not klichka - and identify the
                  diocesan bishop under whose omophorion he/she? (I had previously tried to
                  get a straight answer on this from several of our more prolific posters, to
                  no avail; the only respondent reverted to yet another series of rhetorical
                  questions.) It would be nice to know at least how many members of the list
                  are under a bishop who continues to recognize the authority of the
                  Metropolitan Laurus and the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR, vs. the number who
                  are under individuals who have been defrocked by ROCOR.

                  Waiting with bated breath,

                  Deacon Leonid Mickle
                  Cathedral of St. John the Baptist, Washington DC
                  where His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus and His Grace Bp. Gabriel are
                  commemorated


                  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  ADVERTISEMENT




                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Hristofor
                  ... Protopresbyter George Grabbe served for years (decades maybe?) as Secretary to the Synod of Bishops. Certainly he was writing letters/epistles etc for
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 5, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Fr. John R. Shaw wrote:
                    >>TF: Says who? Is this more of the rumor and gossip mills working
                    >>overtime? Where is your proof of this?
                    >
                    >JRS: Bishop Gregory (while he was still Protopresbyter George Grabbe
                    >and I was still a seminarian) told me so.
                    >
                    Protopresbyter George Grabbe served for years (decades maybe?) as
                    Secretary to the Synod of Bishops. Certainly he was writing
                    letters/epistles etc for Metropolitans, Bishops, The Synod of Bishops. I
                    am sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong, but humility and
                    probably Church protocol would not have him sign the letters/epistles in
                    his own name. In the secular world, secretaries have written untold
                    letters, which were signed by their bosses, CEOs, presidents etc.

                    I am at a loss to understand why such a simple administrative point
                    suddenly has become an "Issue".

                    His daughter, editor of /Tserkovnija novosti/, has been publishing of
                    late in each issue a letter under the heading /From the Unpublished
                    Letters of Vladyka Grigory./ This may be the source of a letter which
                    was has been made public, though without the permission of the addressee.

                    Finally, although I agree that Vl. Grigory was a first-class theologian
                    and have quoted from him in various postings, I disagree with the
                    statement that /"he served four Metropolitans over many decades (at
                    least SIX!) and ROCOR held together, but when the last began to question
                    his knowledge and tactful judgement we got, as a result, very sadly and
                    tragically 5 or more schisms in ROCOR including one led by that
                    Metr....!!!"/

                    First of all, I believe Vladyka Grigory was relieved of his duties as
                    Bishop of DC and Florida (is this the correct term, fathers?) due to his
                    actions/behavior after the scandal caused by his son came to light. I
                    don't ever recall hearing that his knowledge or judgement were questioned.

                    Second, I think the math here is wrong. There are only 2 schisms (to my
                    knowledge at least, am I missing any) since that time, ROAC (Vl.
                    Valentin) and ROCiE. HOCNA, St Herman's etc all occurred before
                    Metropolitan Vitaly's tenure.

                    Thirdly, due to his disagreement with the Synod of Bishops on the issue
                    of parishes in Russia, Vl. Grigory supported [the schism of] Vladyka
                    Valentin, which is somewhat ironic vis-a-vis the quote above. I do not
                    know if he ever officially joined Vl Valentin, but he was certainly his
                    mentor.

                    Finally, I am puzzled by the statement "OK, I concede that one." and the
                    even more curious "My sources agree that Metr. Philaret did not pen..."
                    I though this was a list for ROCA friends. The first statement sounds
                    more like something you might hear on a list discussing chess moves and
                    the second statement make me wonder who these sources are and why aren't
                    they posting themselves, under their own name.

                    Hristofor


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • stefanvpavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@netscap
                    Zina or who ever you are: Bishop Gregory/Protopres. George Grabbe, happened to have been my uncle s father-in-law, and I, through my family, was privy to very
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 6, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Zina or who ever you are:

                      Bishop Gregory/Protopres. George Grabbe, happened to have been my
                      uncle's father-in-law, and I, through my family, was privy to very
                      many intimate facts concerning Synod Church life. I can attest to the
                      fact that Father John Shaw's recollections of events, as he
                      participated and as was conveyed to him by Archbishop Nikon are based
                      on fact. Other people who witnessed these events also know they are true.
                      Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko


                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, zina kochnaya <zikonaya@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > I am not taking any sides, but this is absolutely
                      > ridiculous: A priest would come to a seminarian and
                      > tell him that it was NOT the metropolitan who wrote
                      > these letters, but he did.
                      >
                      > Fr. John must think that we are gullible and stupid.
                      >
                      > Zina
                      >
                      > --- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                      > > Timothy Fischer wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > In a message dated 2/4/2003 5:36:24 PM Eastern
                      > > Standard Time,
                      > > > vrevjrs@e... had written:
                      > > >
                      > > > > <<...the Sorrowful Epistles,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > JRS: These, as is or used to be generally known,
                      > > though issued over
                      > > his
                      > > > > signature, were actually written by
                      > > Protopresbyter George Grabbe.>>
                      > > >
                      > > > TF: Says who? Is this more of the rumor and
                      > > gossip mills working
                      > > > overtime? Where is your proof of this?
                      > >
                      > > JRS: Bishop Gregory (while he was still
                      > > Protopresbyter George Grabbe
                      > > and I was still a seminarian) told me so.
                      > >
                      > > But it was no secret in those days, at all...
                      > >
                      > > In Christ
                      > > Fr. John R. Shaw
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                      > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                    • boulia_1 <eledkovsky@hotmail.com>
                      Dear Zina, Sorry to respectfully disagree, but I guess you were never a seminarian and never hung around Jordanville. Obviously, I was never a seminarian
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 6, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Zina,
                        Sorry to respectfully disagree, but I guess you were never a
                        seminarian and never hung around Jordanville. Obviously, I was never a
                        seminarian either, but my brother finished Holy Trinity seminary and
                        still lives in Jordanville, where he has always had many opportunities
                        to speak on a private and quite informal level with many people, from
                        the 1st year students all the way up to the Metropolitan.

                        It is naive to think that priests (even highly ranked
                        proto-presbyters) don't talk to seminarians or lay people, even about
                        what (now) seems controversial.

                        Also, please everybody note for the record that I'm not stating
                        anything specific regarding this chatter about Fr. George, later
                        Bishop Gregory (or, "Bish Grish," as we in our family who were close
                        to the Grabbes, sometimes affectionately called him)... Thanks.

                        Elizabeth


                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, zina kochnaya <zikonaya@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > I am not taking any sides, but this is absolutely
                        > ridiculous: A priest would come to a seminarian and
                        > tell him that it was NOT the metropolitan who wrote
                        > these letters, but he did.
                        >
                        > Fr. John must think that we are gullible and stupid.
                        >
                        > Zina
                        >
                        > --- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                        > > Timothy Fischer wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > In a message dated 2/4/2003 5:36:24 PM Eastern
                        > > Standard Time,
                        > > > vrevjrs@e... had written:
                        > > >
                        > > > > <<...the Sorrowful Epistles,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > JRS: These, as is or used to be generally known,
                        > > though issued over
                        > > his
                        > > > > signature, were actually written by
                        > > Protopresbyter George Grabbe.>>
                        > > >
                        > > > TF: Says who? Is this more of the rumor and
                        > > gossip mills working
                        > > > overtime? Where is your proof of this?
                        > >
                        > > JRS: Bishop Gregory (while he was still
                        > > Protopresbyter George Grabbe
                        > > and I was still a seminarian) told me so.
                        > >
                        > > But it was no secret in those days, at all...
                        > >
                        > > In Christ
                        > > Fr. John R. Shaw
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                        > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                      • Fr. John R. Shaw
                        ... JRS: DId I say that a priest came to a seminarian ? Actually, I was standing in his office at the Synod. Fr. Adrian Ouallette, who is now, as I understand
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 6, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Zina Kochnaya wrote:

                          > I am not taking any sides, but this is absolutely
                          > ridiculous: A priest would come to a seminarian and
                          > tell him that it was NOT the metropolitan who wrote
                          > these letters, but he did.
                          >
                          > Fr. John must think that we are gullible and stupid.

                          JRS: DId I say that "a priest came to a seminarian"?

                          Actually, I was standing in his office at the Synod. Fr. Adrian
                          Ouallette, who is now, as I understand it, in HOCNA, was his secretary,
                          and had told me that "Of course Fr. George really wrote the Mournful
                          Epistles".

                          Fr. George came by and I asked him if that was so? He smiled and said
                          it was...

                          Does that sound so preposterous to you? At any rate, that's the way it
                          happened.

                          In Christ
                          Fr. John R. Shaw
                        • Hristofor
                          ... Second the motion. Wish the moderator would carry. I know of several lurkers, friendly to ROCA, who for some reason don t post, so hopefully there are more
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 6, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dr. J.L. Lultschik wrote:

                            >I concur completely with the post below; though I am only a lurker, if I didn't know the theoretical organization of this list, I would never realize that it is ostensibly for "members or friends of ROCOR". How I wish it were truly that! Another suggestion - perhaps list membership should be limited to those who acknowledge the authority of Metropolitan Laurus as First Hierarch of ROCOR, and who belong to and worship at parishes that commemmorate him. At the discretion of list moderators, non-ROCOR members could be permitted to join, with the proviso that posts hostile to Met. Laurus and/or ROCOR would result in immediate dismissal from the list.
                            >
                            Second the motion. Wish the moderator would carry.

                            I know of several lurkers, friendly to ROCA, who for some reason don't
                            post, so hopefully there are more pro-ROCA folks on the list then
                            actually post. It is interesting that all the frequent anti-ROCA
                            posters, who never miss a chance to jump into the fray, are now silent.
                            I guess this speaks volumes about the depth of their convictions.

                            Want to add a few other comments. I went to St Sergius HS and not only
                            is Fr John's account of the conversation with Fr Adrian/Vl Grigory
                            believable, I can even picture it happening, since I often went to the
                            bookstore in Synod on lunch break from school. Furthermore, I saw Metr.
                            Philaret every morning at Liturgy and the Orthodox students in the
                            school often saw him for tea. Despite his age, he was very sharp and
                            lucid and he would not sign anything that he didn't agree with. People
                            should NOT confuse that situation with the current one, where various
                            ROCiE folk write all sorts of letters/documents/ukazy, bearing
                            Metropolitan Vitaly's signature, only to have the same
                            withdrawn/retracted/amended/contradicted etc.days/weeks later.

                            I can't think of a single priest or bishop that I know of in our Church
                            who is not approachable. To wit, an Orthodox friend was visiting from
                            Finland, and he was shocked beyond belief when I picked up the phone one
                            evening at 9.00 to call Vl Hilarion to ask him something. He told me
                            that you would be lucky to get through his bishop's secretary during
                            normal business hours, let alone speaking to the bishop directly in the
                            evening.

                            Totally unrelated, but can someone explain why there were several
                            Metropolitans serving in ROCA before WW II alongside Vl. Anthony? I
                            understand that they met (no pun intended!) and selected Vl Anthony as
                            First Hierarch, but were their metropolitanate titles from their former
                            sees in Russia or were they only made Metropolitans abroad? Did Vl.
                            Anastasy already have the title "Metropolitan" before Vl. Anthony reposed?

                            Hristofor
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.