Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Mixed Marriages [was: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou]

Expand Messages
  • Reader John <rdrjohn2000@yahoo.com>
    Fr. John: However, Archbishop Afanassy firmly rejected the change (and it may be of interest that he was the one who in 1983 suggested the anathema against
    Message 1 of 33 , Feb 2, 2003
      Fr. John:

      However, Archbishop Afanassy firmly rejected the change (and it may
      be of interest that he was the one who in 1983 suggested
      the "anathema against ecumenism").

      Father, I've often understood you to tell us that the anathema
      against ecumenism was promulgated by HTM. Your statement above seems
      to contradict this claim. Please explain.

      Q


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
      > Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:
      >
      > > To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that
      anyone be
      > > "forced to convert". The issue, and really the only issue, is
      > whether the
      > > Church's blessing can appropriately be bestowed upon marital
      union
      > between
      > > an Orthodox Christian and a heretic.
      >
      > JRS: The Church gives us rules or permits exceptions, and
      > determines "what can be appropriately bestowed", with the aim of
      > leading us to salvation.
      >
      > It should be sufficient to say that mixed marriages are permitted,
      not
      > for the sake of "liberalism" or out of "careless laxity", but in
      order
      > that people might be encouraged to remain active members of the
      > Orthodox Church.
      >
      > We do not live in a society where parents choose the marriage
      partners
      > for their children. People decide for themselves whom they will
      marry,
      > and by the time, in most cases, that the priest is approached,
      there is
      > little chance to change their minds about love.
      >
      > Indeed, in this part of America in particular, it is not always the
      > case that young people from Russian or other ethnic Orthodox
      families
      > are really committed to marrying in the Orthodox Church -- or, for
      that
      > matter, that their parents really are concerned about this and
      think it
      > important.
      >
      > The "movers" in having an Orthodox ceremony may be the
      *grandparents*,
      > and not the parents at all.
      >
      > So, if the couple comes to the priest to ask about being married in
      the
      > Orthodox Church, and he tells them that "mixed marriages are not
      > permitted" --as I said yesterday-- the outcome is *not* likely to
      be a
      > sincere conversion or a new choice of a mate: the couple simply
      will go
      > elsewhere to marry, and the priest will have to answer for giving
      an
      > extra push towards apostasy.
      >
      > To be sure, the *convert* to Orthodoxy usually has a completely
      > different outlook from that of those born into Orthodox families:
      he
      > knows *why* he is Orthodox. He also understands clearly that
      Orthodoxy
      > represents more than "something for Russians or Greeks or Serbs".
      >
      > One of the greatest problems our Church faces today is that so many
      of
      > the people know next to nothing about their religion -- and they
      may
      > teach their own children precisely nothing.
      >
      > Under those circumstances, the priest has a great teaching job
      ahead of
      > him, *if* he gets so much as the opportunity to teach.
      >
      > > The fact that it has been
      > > done and is being done does not wipe away the question, any more
      than
      > the
      > > fact that people _have_ been united to the Church (even if
      > inappropriately)
      > > with baptism, without chrismation, wipes away the question as to
      > whether it
      > > is ever appropriate for someone from a heretical confession to be
      > received
      > > into the Church other than by baptism (our bishops in a decree
      which
      > has
      > > been published a couple of times in Living Orthodoxy, said it is
      not,
      > even
      > > if it might have been at times in the past).
      >
      > JRS: Now that is quite a sentence...
      >
      > Nevertheless, that is *not* what our bishops have decreed or said.
      >
      > At the 1971 Sobor in Montreal (I was there, incidentally, as the
      > secretary of Archbishop Nikon of blessed memory, and heard exactly
      what
      > the discussion had been on the day that decision was passed, from
      him
      > that evening) -- an *attempt* was made, to pass such a rule,
      changing
      > the way in which converts were to be received into the Church.
      >
      > However, Archbishop Afanassy firmly rejected the change (and it may
      be
      > of interest that he was the one who in 1983 suggested the "anathema
      > against ecumenism").
      >
      > Therefore, the bishops never forbade the reception of converts by
      > chrismation. The matter was still left open, up to the local
      bishop.
      > And it is thus even now, today.
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
    • maureengirard <maureengirard@yahoo.com>
      ... wrote: Before our entire household is declared as over the brink, I have a couple of honest questions.
      Message 33 of 33 , Feb 27, 2003
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "stefanvpavlenko
        <StefanVPavlenko@n...>" <StefanVPavlenko@n...> wrote:

        Before our entire household is declared as "over the brink," I have a
        couple of honest questions. Does she have a catalogue? Does she do
        Greek?
        Maureen


        > > 4. Ordered some podryasniki from the matushka of the Sydney ROC-
        MP
        > > priest (although that's only half-"heretical" since I haven't
        > picked
        > > them up or paid for them yet)...
        >
        > Everything BUT the above can be forgiven, do to human WEAKNESS and
        > the influence of the fallen world about us,----BUT ORDERING
        VESTMENTS
        > from other than MY matushka is unacceptable! CUSTOM LITURGICAL
        > VESTMENTS, over 25 years (oops, thirty) experiance: Tatiana
        Pavlenko,
        > 1136 Palm Drive, Burlingame, CA 94010 650 344 4355
        > tpavlenko@h... REPENT NOW!!!!
        >
        > o Stefan :-)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "maestro_vg <diakon@o...>"
        > <diakon@o...> wrote:
        > > Good on ya Larry!
        > > Here are some of the major "heretical" activities that I have
        been
        > > involved in since I moved to the land of OZ:
        > > 1. I have accepted a blessing from an ROC-MP priest...
        > > 2. Conducted a concert of Russian Orthodox liturgical and secular
        > > music in a CATHOLIC church, which was attended by concertgoers of
        > > various denominations, as well as Orthodox, including most of the
        > > Sydney ROCA clergy, the local ROC-MP priest and the resident RC
        > > priest. Also in a CATHOLIC church, I chanted various vozglasi
        > during
        > > a concert of Russian Orthodox liturgical music performed by the
        > > Melbourne Chorale...
        > > 3. Whilst in Melbourne, I crossed myself as I drove by an ROC-MP
        > > church, as well as a Serbian Orthodox church...
        > > 4. Ordered some podryasniki from the matushka of the Sydney ROC-
        MP
        > > priest (although that's only half-"heretical" since I haven't
        > picked
        > > them up or paid for them yet)...
        > > 5. Venerated relics of St Nektarios, which happen to rest in a
        > temple
        > > of the GOC-EP. I tried very hard to refrain from saying a little
        > > prayer for my boy's safe return from San Francisco, but, as a
        > result
        > > of my "weakness", I said it...
        > > 6. Used downloaded music from OCA.org for last Friday's english
        > > language choir rehearsal...
        > >
        > > I'm sorry if my radical behavior outlined above has upset the
        super-
        > > duper-orthodox of this list. Oh, and another thing I
        > > must "confess"... I also requested to have my name added to
        > > that "secret" letter rdr John was going on about earlier.
        > >
        > > Unworthy, sinful and whatever other terms of piety that some
        people
        > > use after their ridiculous ROCOR-bashing posts,
        > > dVG
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most
        > > <larrymost2002@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST - GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > > > Dear dVG,
        > > > If being an "ecumenist" (heretic) means praying, and
        socialising
        > > with Orthodox of other ORTHODOX JURISIDICTIONS then I am GUILTY,
        > > GUILTY, GUILTY. I hope that I never become as judgemental as some
        > of
        > > the folks on this list.
        > > > Love in Christ,
        > > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most (ROCOR)
        > > > "maestro_vg <diakon@o...>" <diakon@o...> wrote:Elizabeth!
        > > > What are you saying?! You sound like a typical
        > > > ecuemenist/heretic!!! :-)
        > > > dVG
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "boulia_1
        > <eledkovsky@h...>"
        > > > <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
        > > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Reader John
        > > > > <rdrjohn2000@y...>" <rdrjohn2000@y...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > Tell me, did you ask for a blessing from "Metropolitan"
        > Alexy?
        > > I
        > > > > > know you did, but I'd like to hear it from you.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > You know, it's attitudes like this that make me sick! If
        young
        > > > > seminarian John was at a church in the USSR and *any* priest
        or
        > > > bishop
        > > > > were there, speaking to him, I would HOPE he would be proper
        > and
        > > > > cordial in his interaction, and that would include an
        Orthodox
        > > > > seminarian seeking a blessing from an ordained Orthodox
        > > clergyman.
        > > > If
        > > > >
        > > > > Indeed, my travels often put me in contact with MP clergy. I
        > > > routinely
        > > > > seek their blessing. Sometimes from priests or Bishops with
        > whom
        > > I
        > > > > strongly disagree on many things -- sometimes from clergy who
        > do
        > > > > things I personally think are incorrect. But, I try never to
        > lose
        > > > > sight of my lowly status ("unworthy," as some people like to
        > > label
        > > > > themselves) and not to judge.
        > > > >
        > > > > Once, at a music conference in LA, Abp. Anthony of blessed
        > memory
        > > > > directed me to seek the blessing of Bishop Tikhon, of a
        > different
        > > > > ("wrong") jurisdiction. So I am not alone in my thinking.
        > > > >
        > > > > Like them and the history and the politics or NOT, these men,
        > > too,
        > > > > pray and serve sacraments, and their hands may or may not be
        > the
        > > > > instruments of holy and divine mysteries. That is why we
        ought
        > to
        > > > kiss
        > > > > those hands. WE lowly people, "Reader John," are not given to
        > > know
        > > > or
        > > > > to judge WHO among us is worthy. Like the Pharisee, we should
        > not
        > > > be
        > > > > saying that we are good and others are wretched. Only God is
        in
        > a
        > > > > position to decide that.
        > > > >
        > > > > In Christ's love (invoked by the sign of the Cross made when
        a
        > > > > clergyman blesses),
        > > > > Elizabeth
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
        > > >
        > > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > > Service.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.