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Re: [orthodox-synod] Esphigmenou monks extremists?

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  • Rev. Sergei Overt
    Dear in Christ Fr. Gregory, You are right about what you say. Please know that Russian priests in ROCOR have always allowed this. (This is how our Russian
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
      Dear in Christ Fr. Gregory,
      You are right about what you say.
      Please know that Russian priests in ROCOR
      have always allowed this. (This is how our Russian parishioners understand
      it - "It is allowed" ).From New York to Chicago to Los Angeles(except in
      Archbishop Antony's diocese) to San Francisco to Vancouver. In every Russian
      ROCOR parish mixed marriages between Orthodox and other Christians are is
      allowed.
      I believe it has hurt the Russian parishes spiritually. In rare cases ( I
      have one in my parish) a good thing happened, the non-Orthodox spouse became
      Orthodox!Glory to God! I respect this very much. In most cases though the
      mixed marriage is just a compromise to not hurt the family.This is the
      reality of our ROCOR Fr. Gregory.
      I do not want to offend anyone by speaking about this delicate matter. I do
      believe it has hurt ROCOR over the years and now especially.
      I ask for your prayers, Fr. Gregory.
      With love in Christ,
      Fr.Sergei


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Fr. Gregory Williams" <frgregory@...>
      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 2:20 PM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Esphigmenou monks extremists?


      > Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I'll have to
      > confess to being an extremist. "We" in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a
      > significant number of others) do _not_ bestow the Church's blessing upon
      > unions between Orthodox Christians and heretics of any variety. Such
      unions
      > are quite explicitly and vehemently forbidden by the Church, frequent
      > "economies" in the present-day notwithstanding (see "Does the Orthodox
      > Church Permit Mixed Marriages", Living Orthodoxy, vol. XI #2, for
      pertinent
      > canonical and other citations).
      >
      >
      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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      >
    • Fr. Gregory Williams
      Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I ll have to confess to being an extremist. We in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a significant
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
        Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I'll have to
        confess to being an extremist. "We" in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a
        significant number of others) do _not_ bestow the Church's blessing upon
        unions between Orthodox Christians and heretics of any variety. Such unions
        are quite explicitly and vehemently forbidden by the Church, frequent
        "economies" in the present-day notwithstanding (see "Does the Orthodox
        Church Permit Mixed Marriages", Living Orthodoxy, vol. XI #2, for pertinent
        canonical and other citations).
      • Kiril Bart
        Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by economia, not as a normal practice. Subdeacon Kirill ... http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
          Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by
          economia, not as a normal practice.
          Subdeacon Kirill

          --- "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
          > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
          > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church
          > Outside of Russia allow
          > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox
          > Christians.
          > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this
          > also!
          > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
          > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being
          > evicted.
          > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow
          > Patriarchate and in Serbia
          > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would
          > probably not agree with the
          > eviction also.
          > Fr. S.
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: <boepad@...>
          > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help
          > Esphigmenou
          >
          >
          > > > Here's a more thorough article about the
          > Esphigmenou situation than
          > >
          > > >
          >
          http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
          > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
          > >
          > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I
          > don't follow. For
          > > example..."to halt communication with those of
          > other faiths." Are
          > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like
          > Roman Catholics, etc.?
          > >
          > > luke
          > >
          > >
          > > Archives located at
          > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          >
          >
          >


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        • Kiril Bart
          Well.. if you want to save two dollars, why don t you read it yourself? Also simonia wouldn t apply in here, it s a little different subject, rather if someone
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
            Well.. if you want to save two dollars, why don't you
            read it yourself? Also simonia wouldn't apply in here,
            it's a little different subject, rather if someone is
            paying for being ordained.
            Subdeacon Kirill

            --- iris cherry <ancianos25@...> wrote:
            > >What about an Orthodox way to help someone in need,
            > >just go and order moleben with akathist at your
            > parish
            > >for persecuted monks of Espigmenou.
            > >Subdeacon Kirill
            >
            > Don't forget to leave a crisp $1 bill to cover the
            > order (maybe an extra
            > dollar if you supersize it with the Akathist) so the
            > priest doesn't also
            > feel persecuted by the orthodox way. p.s. they
            > shouldn't complain anyway.
            > That would be simony. tongue in cheek, Iris
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • pvgol@aol.com
            I believe mixed marriages between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians was allowed in Russia as well. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
              I believe "mixed marriages" between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians was
              allowed in Russia as well.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • batushka@msn.com
              Let us not forget that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr was Lutheran at the time of her marriage to Grand Duke Sergei, and she was not forced to convert. This she
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
                Let us not forget that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr was Lutheran at the time
                of her marriage to Grand Duke Sergei, and she was not forced to convert.
                This she did of her own free will. An excellent example of what can come of
                "mixed marriages".

                Father Basil


                ----- Original Message -----
                Wrom: TFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRK
                To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:44 PM
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou


                > Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by
                > economia, not as a normal practice.
                > Subdeacon Kirill
                >
                > --- "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
                > > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
                > > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church
                > > Outside of Russia allow
                > > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox
                > > Christians.
                > > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this
                > > also!
                > > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
                > > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being
                > > evicted.
                > > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow
                > > Patriarchate and in Serbia
                > > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would
                > > probably not agree with the
                > > eviction also.
                > > Fr. S.
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > Wrom: JVZCMHVIBGDADRZF
                > > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
                > > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help
                > > Esphigmenou
                > >
                > >
                > > > > Here's a more thorough article about the
                > > Esphigmenou situation than
                > > >
                > > > >
                > >
                > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                > > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
                > > >
                > > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I
                > > don't follow. For
                > > > example..."to halt communication with those of
                > > other faiths." Are
                > > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like
                > > Roman Catholics, etc.?
                > > >
                > > > luke
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Archives located at
                > > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
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                > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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              • Michael Nikitin
                Taking communion every week is considered extremism by some. Although partaking of the body and blood of Christ is something we should do according to our Holy
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
                  Taking communion every week is considered extremism by some. Although
                  partaking of the body and blood of Christ is something we should do
                  according to our Holy Fathers.

                  Michael N.

                  From: "vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...>"
                  <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                  Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou
                  Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 19:30:18 -0000

                  Dear Father, bless.

                  You write:

                  "Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it's
                  not nice that the monks are being evicted..."

                  What the ROCOR must make now clearer than ever, is that she will keep
                  her stand about ecumenism: it is a heresy.

                  Everybody will accept that extremism is not good. The only question
                  is to know what definition of extremism you accept. Stopping at a red
                  traffic light at night is considered an extremist behaviour by some
                  people. Always stopping at a red traffic light during the day is
                  considered an extremist behaviour by others. Among the latino-
                  catholics, insisting on going to church once a week is considered
                  extremist. For them, being an orthodox is being like a Taliban or a
                  fundamentalist intolerant sectarian.

                  As a priest, you are considered an extremist by the ecumenist, unless
                  you are one of them. I hope they call you an extremist. Being
                  called "extremist" by an ecumenist is a glory for a real orthodox.

                  Let us not, with the pretence of demonstrating something, first give
                  a derogatory adjective to an object that we do not like, and then
                  state that, since the object deserved that adjective, so therefore it
                  is wrong. You skipped the only interesting part of the discourse,
                  which is: what do you call extremism in this case?

                  The orthodox Church prohibits marriages with the non-orthodox, but
                  will accept to apply economy in many cases, according to the local
                  conditions. One of the cases where economy will be applied is when
                  the orthodox are a minority, which would mean that, without economy,
                  they would not be able to multiply, and thus to obey God's will in
                  this regard.

                  Let us not mix up the doctrine and the economy. See post
                  6598 "orthodoxy combines the total refusal of any compromise in
                  matters of faith and an incomparable loving care..."

                  Refusing ecumenism is not being an extremist. It is just being
                  orthodox. Being isolated is not being extremist, unorthodox or
                  sectarian. Very often, orthodox are isolated, and they will be more
                  and more so. Christ has warned us.

                  In God,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff




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                • Fr. Gregory Williams
                  To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that anyone be forced to convert . The issue, and really the only issue, is whether the Church s
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
                    To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that anyone be
                    "forced to convert". The issue, and really the only issue, is whether the
                    Church's blessing can appropriately be bestowed upon marital union between
                    an Orthodox Christian and a heretic. If two people choose to live in such a
                    union, that's their business (and the Lord's). The fact that it has been
                    done and is being done does not wipe away the question, any more than the
                    fact that people _have_ been united to the Church (even if inappropriately)
                    with baptism, without chrismation, wipes away the question as to whether it
                    is ever appropriate for someone from a heretical confession to be received
                    into the Church other than by baptism (our bishops in a decree which has
                    been published a couple of times in Living Orthodoxy, said it is not, even
                    if it might have been at times in the past).
                  • Fr. Gregory Williams
                    Christ is in our midst! Please forgive delay, Father. Too much to do! I am of course well aware that this practice is widespread in our church, I think much
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
                      Christ is in our midst! Please forgive delay, Father. Too much to do! I
                      am of course well aware that this practice is widespread in our church, I
                      think much to her detriment, and that of the people who are allowed, even
                      encouraged by implication, to enter into such unions. I of course know of a
                      few cases where (since God knows well how to write straight with crooked
                      lines!) mixed marriages have ultimately led to the conversion of the
                      non-Orthodox person. But I'm afraid I know of far more cases where at best
                      a luke-warm sort of Orthodoxy on the part of one partner continues
                      indefinitely, even if that.

                      Of course, the issue of an existing marriage within which one partner
                      becomes Orthodox is an entirely different matter.

                      We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that's the route
                      (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                      Episcopalianism or worse.
                    • orthodixie@aol.com
                      We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that s the route (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
                        We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that's the route
                        (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                        Episcopalianism or worse.



                        I've never served a "mixed-marriage," so thank God I'm not implicated in the
                        above remark. :)

                        However, it does seem a disservice to the participants of this list to even
                        hint that a few of "our" clergy are watering down the Truth.

                        FWIW,
                        Fr Joseph Huneycutt
                      • Fr. Gregory Williams
                        My apologies -- the prior message was not meant to be public.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
                          My apologies -- the prior message was not meant to be public.
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