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Re: [orthodox-synod] Esphigmenou monks extremists?

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  • Rev. Sergei Overt
    Dear in Christ Fr. Gregory, You are right about what you say. Please know that Russian priests in ROCOR have always allowed this. (This is how our Russian
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
      Dear in Christ Fr. Gregory,
      You are right about what you say.
      Please know that Russian priests in ROCOR
      have always allowed this. (This is how our Russian parishioners understand
      it - "It is allowed" ).From New York to Chicago to Los Angeles(except in
      Archbishop Antony's diocese) to San Francisco to Vancouver. In every Russian
      ROCOR parish mixed marriages between Orthodox and other Christians are is
      allowed.
      I believe it has hurt the Russian parishes spiritually. In rare cases ( I
      have one in my parish) a good thing happened, the non-Orthodox spouse became
      Orthodox!Glory to God! I respect this very much. In most cases though the
      mixed marriage is just a compromise to not hurt the family.This is the
      reality of our ROCOR Fr. Gregory.
      I do not want to offend anyone by speaking about this delicate matter. I do
      believe it has hurt ROCOR over the years and now especially.
      I ask for your prayers, Fr. Gregory.
      With love in Christ,
      Fr.Sergei


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Fr. Gregory Williams" <frgregory@...>
      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 2:20 PM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Esphigmenou monks extremists?


      > Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I'll have to
      > confess to being an extremist. "We" in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a
      > significant number of others) do _not_ bestow the Church's blessing upon
      > unions between Orthodox Christians and heretics of any variety. Such
      unions
      > are quite explicitly and vehemently forbidden by the Church, frequent
      > "economies" in the present-day notwithstanding (see "Does the Orthodox
      > Church Permit Mixed Marriages", Living Orthodoxy, vol. XI #2, for
      pertinent
      > canonical and other citations).
      >
      >
      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@skynet.be>
      Dear Father, bless. You write: Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it s not nice that the monks are being evicted... What the
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
        Dear Father, bless.

        You write:

        "Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it's
        not nice that the monks are being evicted..."

        What the ROCOR must make now clearer than ever, is that she will keep
        her stand about ecumenism: it is a heresy.

        Everybody will accept that extremism is not good. The only question
        is to know what definition of extremism you accept. Stopping at a red
        traffic light at night is considered an extremist behaviour by some
        people. Always stopping at a red traffic light during the day is
        considered an extremist behaviour by others. Among the latino-
        catholics, insisting on going to church once a week is considered
        extremist. For them, being an orthodox is being like a Taliban or a
        fundamentalist intolerant sectarian.

        As a priest, you are considered an extremist by the ecumenist, unless
        you are one of them. I hope they call you an extremist. Being
        called "extremist" by an ecumenist is a glory for a real orthodox.

        Let us not, with the pretence of demonstrating something, first give
        a derogatory adjective to an object that we do not like, and then
        state that, since the object deserved that adjective, so therefore it
        is wrong. You skipped the only interesting part of the discourse,
        which is: what do you call extremism in this case?

        The orthodox Church prohibits marriages with the non-orthodox, but
        will accept to apply economy in many cases, according to the local
        conditions. One of the cases where economy will be applied is when
        the orthodox are a minority, which would mean that, without economy,
        they would not be able to multiply, and thus to obey God's will in
        this regard.

        Let us not mix up the doctrine and the economy. See post
        6598 "orthodoxy combines the total refusal of any compromise in
        matters of faith and an incomparable loving care..."

        Refusing ecumenism is not being an extremist. It is just being
        orthodox. Being isolated is not being extremist, unorthodox or
        sectarian. Very often, orthodox are isolated, and they will be more
        and more so. Christ has warned us.

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Sergei Overt"
        <frsovert@3...> wrote:
        > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
        > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
        allow
        > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians.
        > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this also!
        > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
        > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being evicted.
        > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow Patriarchate and in
        Serbia
        > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would probably not agree
        with the
        > eviction also.
        > Fr. S.
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: <boepad@m...>
        > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou
        >
        >
        > > > Here's a more thorough article about the Esphigmenou situation
        than
        > >
        > > > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
        > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
        > >
        > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I don't follow.
        For
        > > example..."to halt communication with those of other faiths." Are
        > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like Roman Catholics,
        etc.?
        > >
        > > luke
        > >
        > >
        > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
      • Fr. Gregory Williams
        Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I ll have to confess to being an extremist. We in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a significant
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
          Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I'll have to
          confess to being an extremist. "We" in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a
          significant number of others) do _not_ bestow the Church's blessing upon
          unions between Orthodox Christians and heretics of any variety. Such unions
          are quite explicitly and vehemently forbidden by the Church, frequent
          "economies" in the present-day notwithstanding (see "Does the Orthodox
          Church Permit Mixed Marriages", Living Orthodoxy, vol. XI #2, for pertinent
          canonical and other citations).
        • Kiril Bart
          Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by economia, not as a normal practice. Subdeacon Kirill ... http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
            Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by
            economia, not as a normal practice.
            Subdeacon Kirill

            --- "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
            > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
            > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church
            > Outside of Russia allow
            > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox
            > Christians.
            > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this
            > also!
            > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
            > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being
            > evicted.
            > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow
            > Patriarchate and in Serbia
            > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would
            > probably not agree with the
            > eviction also.
            > Fr. S.
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: <boepad@...>
            > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help
            > Esphigmenou
            >
            >
            > > > Here's a more thorough article about the
            > Esphigmenou situation than
            > >
            > > >
            >
            http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
            > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
            > >
            > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I
            > don't follow. For
            > > example..."to halt communication with those of
            > other faiths." Are
            > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like
            > Roman Catholics, etc.?
            > >
            > > luke
            > >
            > >
            > > Archives located at
            > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            >
            >
            >


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          • Kiril Bart
            Well.. if you want to save two dollars, why don t you read it yourself? Also simonia wouldn t apply in here, it s a little different subject, rather if someone
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
              Well.. if you want to save two dollars, why don't you
              read it yourself? Also simonia wouldn't apply in here,
              it's a little different subject, rather if someone is
              paying for being ordained.
              Subdeacon Kirill

              --- iris cherry <ancianos25@...> wrote:
              > >What about an Orthodox way to help someone in need,
              > >just go and order moleben with akathist at your
              > parish
              > >for persecuted monks of Espigmenou.
              > >Subdeacon Kirill
              >
              > Don't forget to leave a crisp $1 bill to cover the
              > order (maybe an extra
              > dollar if you supersize it with the Akathist) so the
              > priest doesn't also
              > feel persecuted by the orthodox way. p.s. they
              > shouldn't complain anyway.
              > That would be simony. tongue in cheek, Iris
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • pvgol@aol.com
              I believe mixed marriages between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians was allowed in Russia as well. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
                I believe "mixed marriages" between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians was
                allowed in Russia as well.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • batushka@msn.com
                Let us not forget that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr was Lutheran at the time of her marriage to Grand Duke Sergei, and she was not forced to convert. This she
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
                  Let us not forget that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr was Lutheran at the time
                  of her marriage to Grand Duke Sergei, and she was not forced to convert.
                  This she did of her own free will. An excellent example of what can come of
                  "mixed marriages".

                  Father Basil


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Wrom: TFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRK
                  To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:44 PM
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou


                  > Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by
                  > economia, not as a normal practice.
                  > Subdeacon Kirill
                  >
                  > --- "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
                  > > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
                  > > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church
                  > > Outside of Russia allow
                  > > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox
                  > > Christians.
                  > > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this
                  > > also!
                  > > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
                  > > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being
                  > > evicted.
                  > > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow
                  > > Patriarchate and in Serbia
                  > > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would
                  > > probably not agree with the
                  > > eviction also.
                  > > Fr. S.
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > Wrom: JVZCMHVIBGDADRZF
                  > > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
                  > > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help
                  > > Esphigmenou
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > > Here's a more thorough article about the
                  > > Esphigmenou situation than
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                  > > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
                  > > >
                  > > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I
                  > > don't follow. For
                  > > > example..."to halt communication with those of
                  > > other faiths." Are
                  > > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like
                  > > Roman Catholics, etc.?
                  > > >
                  > > > luke
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Archives located at
                  > > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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                  >
                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                • Michael Nikitin
                  Taking communion every week is considered extremism by some. Although partaking of the body and blood of Christ is something we should do according to our Holy
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
                    Taking communion every week is considered extremism by some. Although
                    partaking of the body and blood of Christ is something we should do
                    according to our Holy Fathers.

                    Michael N.

                    From: "vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...>"
                    <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou
                    Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 19:30:18 -0000

                    Dear Father, bless.

                    You write:

                    "Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it's
                    not nice that the monks are being evicted..."

                    What the ROCOR must make now clearer than ever, is that she will keep
                    her stand about ecumenism: it is a heresy.

                    Everybody will accept that extremism is not good. The only question
                    is to know what definition of extremism you accept. Stopping at a red
                    traffic light at night is considered an extremist behaviour by some
                    people. Always stopping at a red traffic light during the day is
                    considered an extremist behaviour by others. Among the latino-
                    catholics, insisting on going to church once a week is considered
                    extremist. For them, being an orthodox is being like a Taliban or a
                    fundamentalist intolerant sectarian.

                    As a priest, you are considered an extremist by the ecumenist, unless
                    you are one of them. I hope they call you an extremist. Being
                    called "extremist" by an ecumenist is a glory for a real orthodox.

                    Let us not, with the pretence of demonstrating something, first give
                    a derogatory adjective to an object that we do not like, and then
                    state that, since the object deserved that adjective, so therefore it
                    is wrong. You skipped the only interesting part of the discourse,
                    which is: what do you call extremism in this case?

                    The orthodox Church prohibits marriages with the non-orthodox, but
                    will accept to apply economy in many cases, according to the local
                    conditions. One of the cases where economy will be applied is when
                    the orthodox are a minority, which would mean that, without economy,
                    they would not be able to multiply, and thus to obey God's will in
                    this regard.

                    Let us not mix up the doctrine and the economy. See post
                    6598 "orthodoxy combines the total refusal of any compromise in
                    matters of faith and an incomparable loving care..."

                    Refusing ecumenism is not being an extremist. It is just being
                    orthodox. Being isolated is not being extremist, unorthodox or
                    sectarian. Very often, orthodox are isolated, and they will be more
                    and more so. Christ has warned us.

                    In God,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff




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                  • Fr. Gregory Williams
                    To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that anyone be forced to convert . The issue, and really the only issue, is whether the Church s
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
                      To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that anyone be
                      "forced to convert". The issue, and really the only issue, is whether the
                      Church's blessing can appropriately be bestowed upon marital union between
                      an Orthodox Christian and a heretic. If two people choose to live in such a
                      union, that's their business (and the Lord's). The fact that it has been
                      done and is being done does not wipe away the question, any more than the
                      fact that people _have_ been united to the Church (even if inappropriately)
                      with baptism, without chrismation, wipes away the question as to whether it
                      is ever appropriate for someone from a heretical confession to be received
                      into the Church other than by baptism (our bishops in a decree which has
                      been published a couple of times in Living Orthodoxy, said it is not, even
                      if it might have been at times in the past).
                    • Fr. Gregory Williams
                      Christ is in our midst! Please forgive delay, Father. Too much to do! I am of course well aware that this practice is widespread in our church, I think much
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
                        Christ is in our midst! Please forgive delay, Father. Too much to do! I
                        am of course well aware that this practice is widespread in our church, I
                        think much to her detriment, and that of the people who are allowed, even
                        encouraged by implication, to enter into such unions. I of course know of a
                        few cases where (since God knows well how to write straight with crooked
                        lines!) mixed marriages have ultimately led to the conversion of the
                        non-Orthodox person. But I'm afraid I know of far more cases where at best
                        a luke-warm sort of Orthodoxy on the part of one partner continues
                        indefinitely, even if that.

                        Of course, the issue of an existing marriage within which one partner
                        becomes Orthodox is an entirely different matter.

                        We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that's the route
                        (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                        Episcopalianism or worse.
                      • orthodixie@aol.com
                        We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that s the route (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
                          We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that's the route
                          (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                          Episcopalianism or worse.



                          I've never served a "mixed-marriage," so thank God I'm not implicated in the
                          above remark. :)

                          However, it does seem a disservice to the participants of this list to even
                          hint that a few of "our" clergy are watering down the Truth.

                          FWIW,
                          Fr Joseph Huneycutt
                        • Fr. Gregory Williams
                          My apologies -- the prior message was not meant to be public.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
                            My apologies -- the prior message was not meant to be public.
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