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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou

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  • iris cherry
    ... Don t forget to leave a crisp $1 bill to cover the order (maybe an extra dollar if you supersize it with the Akathist) so the priest doesn t also feel
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 31, 2003
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      >What about an Orthodox way to help someone in need,
      >just go and order moleben with akathist at your parish
      >for persecuted monks of Espigmenou.
      >Subdeacon Kirill

      Don't forget to leave a crisp $1 bill to cover the order (maybe an extra
      dollar if you supersize it with the Akathist) so the priest doesn't also
      feel persecuted by the orthodox way. p.s. they shouldn't complain anyway.
      That would be simony. tongue in cheek, Iris





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    • luke padgett <boepad@msn.com>
      ... Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I don t follow. For example... to halt communication with those of other faiths. Are they referring to
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 31, 2003
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        > Here's a more thorough article about the Esphigmenou situation than

        > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
        > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1

        Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I don't follow. For
        example..."to halt communication with those of other faiths." Are
        they referring to other Christian faiths, like Roman Catholics, etc.?

        luke
      • Rev. Sergei Overt
        Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude. For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia allow marriages between Roman Catholic and
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 31, 2003
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          Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
          For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia allow
          marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians.
          I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this also!
          Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
          Although, it's not nice that the monks are being evicted.
          Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow Patriarchate and in Serbia
          attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would probably not agree with the
          eviction also.
          Fr. S.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <boepad@...>
          To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou


          > > Here's a more thorough article about the Esphigmenou situation than
          >
          > > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
          > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
          >
          > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I don't follow. For
          > example..."to halt communication with those of other faiths." Are
          > they referring to other Christian faiths, like Roman Catholics, etc.?
          >
          > luke
          >
          >
          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
        • Rev. Sergei Overt
          Dear in Christ Fr. Gregory, You are right about what you say. Please know that Russian priests in ROCOR have always allowed this. (This is how our Russian
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
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            Dear in Christ Fr. Gregory,
            You are right about what you say.
            Please know that Russian priests in ROCOR
            have always allowed this. (This is how our Russian parishioners understand
            it - "It is allowed" ).From New York to Chicago to Los Angeles(except in
            Archbishop Antony's diocese) to San Francisco to Vancouver. In every Russian
            ROCOR parish mixed marriages between Orthodox and other Christians are is
            allowed.
            I believe it has hurt the Russian parishes spiritually. In rare cases ( I
            have one in my parish) a good thing happened, the non-Orthodox spouse became
            Orthodox!Glory to God! I respect this very much. In most cases though the
            mixed marriage is just a compromise to not hurt the family.This is the
            reality of our ROCOR Fr. Gregory.
            I do not want to offend anyone by speaking about this delicate matter. I do
            believe it has hurt ROCOR over the years and now especially.
            I ask for your prayers, Fr. Gregory.
            With love in Christ,
            Fr.Sergei


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Fr. Gregory Williams" <frgregory@...>
            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 2:20 PM
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Esphigmenou monks extremists?


            > Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I'll have to
            > confess to being an extremist. "We" in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a
            > significant number of others) do _not_ bestow the Church's blessing upon
            > unions between Orthodox Christians and heretics of any variety. Such
            unions
            > are quite explicitly and vehemently forbidden by the Church, frequent
            > "economies" in the present-day notwithstanding (see "Does the Orthodox
            > Church Permit Mixed Marriages", Living Orthodoxy, vol. XI #2, for
            pertinent
            > canonical and other citations).
            >
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@skynet.be>
            Dear Father, bless. You write: Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it s not nice that the monks are being evicted... What the
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
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              Dear Father, bless.

              You write:

              "Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it's
              not nice that the monks are being evicted..."

              What the ROCOR must make now clearer than ever, is that she will keep
              her stand about ecumenism: it is a heresy.

              Everybody will accept that extremism is not good. The only question
              is to know what definition of extremism you accept. Stopping at a red
              traffic light at night is considered an extremist behaviour by some
              people. Always stopping at a red traffic light during the day is
              considered an extremist behaviour by others. Among the latino-
              catholics, insisting on going to church once a week is considered
              extremist. For them, being an orthodox is being like a Taliban or a
              fundamentalist intolerant sectarian.

              As a priest, you are considered an extremist by the ecumenist, unless
              you are one of them. I hope they call you an extremist. Being
              called "extremist" by an ecumenist is a glory for a real orthodox.

              Let us not, with the pretence of demonstrating something, first give
              a derogatory adjective to an object that we do not like, and then
              state that, since the object deserved that adjective, so therefore it
              is wrong. You skipped the only interesting part of the discourse,
              which is: what do you call extremism in this case?

              The orthodox Church prohibits marriages with the non-orthodox, but
              will accept to apply economy in many cases, according to the local
              conditions. One of the cases where economy will be applied is when
              the orthodox are a minority, which would mean that, without economy,
              they would not be able to multiply, and thus to obey God's will in
              this regard.

              Let us not mix up the doctrine and the economy. See post
              6598 "orthodoxy combines the total refusal of any compromise in
              matters of faith and an incomparable loving care..."

              Refusing ecumenism is not being an extremist. It is just being
              orthodox. Being isolated is not being extremist, unorthodox or
              sectarian. Very often, orthodox are isolated, and they will be more
              and more so. Christ has warned us.

              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff


              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Sergei Overt"
              <frsovert@3...> wrote:
              > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
              > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
              allow
              > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians.
              > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this also!
              > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
              > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being evicted.
              > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow Patriarchate and in
              Serbia
              > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would probably not agree
              with the
              > eviction also.
              > Fr. S.
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <boepad@m...>
              > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
              > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou
              >
              >
              > > > Here's a more thorough article about the Esphigmenou situation
              than
              > >
              > > > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
              > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
              > >
              > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I don't follow.
              For
              > > example..."to halt communication with those of other faiths." Are
              > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like Roman Catholics,
              etc.?
              > >
              > > luke
              > >
              > >
              > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
            • Fr. Gregory Williams
              Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I ll have to confess to being an extremist. We in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a significant
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
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                Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I'll have to
                confess to being an extremist. "We" in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a
                significant number of others) do _not_ bestow the Church's blessing upon
                unions between Orthodox Christians and heretics of any variety. Such unions
                are quite explicitly and vehemently forbidden by the Church, frequent
                "economies" in the present-day notwithstanding (see "Does the Orthodox
                Church Permit Mixed Marriages", Living Orthodoxy, vol. XI #2, for pertinent
                canonical and other citations).
              • Kiril Bart
                Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by economia, not as a normal practice. Subdeacon Kirill ... http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
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                  Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by
                  economia, not as a normal practice.
                  Subdeacon Kirill

                  --- "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
                  > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
                  > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church
                  > Outside of Russia allow
                  > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox
                  > Christians.
                  > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this
                  > also!
                  > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
                  > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being
                  > evicted.
                  > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow
                  > Patriarchate and in Serbia
                  > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would
                  > probably not agree with the
                  > eviction also.
                  > Fr. S.
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: <boepad@...>
                  > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
                  > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help
                  > Esphigmenou
                  >
                  >
                  > > > Here's a more thorough article about the
                  > Esphigmenou situation than
                  > >
                  > > >
                  >
                  http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                  > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
                  > >
                  > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I
                  > don't follow. For
                  > > example..."to halt communication with those of
                  > other faiths." Are
                  > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like
                  > Roman Catholics, etc.?
                  > >
                  > > luke
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Archives located at
                  > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • Kiril Bart
                  Well.. if you want to save two dollars, why don t you read it yourself? Also simonia wouldn t apply in here, it s a little different subject, rather if someone
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
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                    Well.. if you want to save two dollars, why don't you
                    read it yourself? Also simonia wouldn't apply in here,
                    it's a little different subject, rather if someone is
                    paying for being ordained.
                    Subdeacon Kirill

                    --- iris cherry <ancianos25@...> wrote:
                    > >What about an Orthodox way to help someone in need,
                    > >just go and order moleben with akathist at your
                    > parish
                    > >for persecuted monks of Espigmenou.
                    > >Subdeacon Kirill
                    >
                    > Don't forget to leave a crisp $1 bill to cover the
                    > order (maybe an extra
                    > dollar if you supersize it with the Akathist) so the
                    > priest doesn't also
                    > feel persecuted by the orthodox way. p.s. they
                    > shouldn't complain anyway.
                    > That would be simony. tongue in cheek, Iris
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months
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                  • pvgol@aol.com
                    I believe mixed marriages between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians was allowed in Russia as well. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
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                      I believe "mixed marriages" between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians was
                      allowed in Russia as well.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • batushka@msn.com
                      Let us not forget that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr was Lutheran at the time of her marriage to Grand Duke Sergei, and she was not forced to convert. This she
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
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                        Let us not forget that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr was Lutheran at the time
                        of her marriage to Grand Duke Sergei, and she was not forced to convert.
                        This she did of her own free will. An excellent example of what can come of
                        "mixed marriages".

                        Father Basil


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Wrom: TFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRK
                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:44 PM
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou


                        > Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by
                        > economia, not as a normal practice.
                        > Subdeacon Kirill
                        >
                        > --- "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
                        > > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
                        > > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church
                        > > Outside of Russia allow
                        > > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox
                        > > Christians.
                        > > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this
                        > > also!
                        > > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
                        > > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being
                        > > evicted.
                        > > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow
                        > > Patriarchate and in Serbia
                        > > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would
                        > > probably not agree with the
                        > > eviction also.
                        > > Fr. S.
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > Wrom: JVZCMHVIBGDADRZF
                        > > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
                        > > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help
                        > > Esphigmenou
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > > Here's a more thorough article about the
                        > > Esphigmenou situation than
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > >
                        > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                        > > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
                        > > >
                        > > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I
                        > > don't follow. For
                        > > > example..."to halt communication with those of
                        > > other faiths." Are
                        > > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like
                        > > Roman Catholics, etc.?
                        > > >
                        > > > luke
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Archives located at
                        > > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
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                        > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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                        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                      • Michael Nikitin
                        Taking communion every week is considered extremism by some. Although partaking of the body and blood of Christ is something we should do according to our Holy
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
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                          Taking communion every week is considered extremism by some. Although
                          partaking of the body and blood of Christ is something we should do
                          according to our Holy Fathers.

                          Michael N.

                          From: "vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...>"
                          <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou
                          Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 19:30:18 -0000

                          Dear Father, bless.

                          You write:

                          "Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it's
                          not nice that the monks are being evicted..."

                          What the ROCOR must make now clearer than ever, is that she will keep
                          her stand about ecumenism: it is a heresy.

                          Everybody will accept that extremism is not good. The only question
                          is to know what definition of extremism you accept. Stopping at a red
                          traffic light at night is considered an extremist behaviour by some
                          people. Always stopping at a red traffic light during the day is
                          considered an extremist behaviour by others. Among the latino-
                          catholics, insisting on going to church once a week is considered
                          extremist. For them, being an orthodox is being like a Taliban or a
                          fundamentalist intolerant sectarian.

                          As a priest, you are considered an extremist by the ecumenist, unless
                          you are one of them. I hope they call you an extremist. Being
                          called "extremist" by an ecumenist is a glory for a real orthodox.

                          Let us not, with the pretence of demonstrating something, first give
                          a derogatory adjective to an object that we do not like, and then
                          state that, since the object deserved that adjective, so therefore it
                          is wrong. You skipped the only interesting part of the discourse,
                          which is: what do you call extremism in this case?

                          The orthodox Church prohibits marriages with the non-orthodox, but
                          will accept to apply economy in many cases, according to the local
                          conditions. One of the cases where economy will be applied is when
                          the orthodox are a minority, which would mean that, without economy,
                          they would not be able to multiply, and thus to obey God's will in
                          this regard.

                          Let us not mix up the doctrine and the economy. See post
                          6598 "orthodoxy combines the total refusal of any compromise in
                          matters of faith and an incomparable loving care..."

                          Refusing ecumenism is not being an extremist. It is just being
                          orthodox. Being isolated is not being extremist, unorthodox or
                          sectarian. Very often, orthodox are isolated, and they will be more
                          and more so. Christ has warned us.

                          In God,

                          Vladimir Kozyreff




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                        • Fr. Gregory Williams
                          To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that anyone be forced to convert . The issue, and really the only issue, is whether the Church s
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
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                            To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that anyone be
                            "forced to convert". The issue, and really the only issue, is whether the
                            Church's blessing can appropriately be bestowed upon marital union between
                            an Orthodox Christian and a heretic. If two people choose to live in such a
                            union, that's their business (and the Lord's). The fact that it has been
                            done and is being done does not wipe away the question, any more than the
                            fact that people _have_ been united to the Church (even if inappropriately)
                            with baptism, without chrismation, wipes away the question as to whether it
                            is ever appropriate for someone from a heretical confession to be received
                            into the Church other than by baptism (our bishops in a decree which has
                            been published a couple of times in Living Orthodoxy, said it is not, even
                            if it might have been at times in the past).
                          • Fr. Gregory Williams
                            Christ is in our midst! Please forgive delay, Father. Too much to do! I am of course well aware that this practice is widespread in our church, I think much
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
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                              Christ is in our midst! Please forgive delay, Father. Too much to do! I
                              am of course well aware that this practice is widespread in our church, I
                              think much to her detriment, and that of the people who are allowed, even
                              encouraged by implication, to enter into such unions. I of course know of a
                              few cases where (since God knows well how to write straight with crooked
                              lines!) mixed marriages have ultimately led to the conversion of the
                              non-Orthodox person. But I'm afraid I know of far more cases where at best
                              a luke-warm sort of Orthodoxy on the part of one partner continues
                              indefinitely, even if that.

                              Of course, the issue of an existing marriage within which one partner
                              becomes Orthodox is an entirely different matter.

                              We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that's the route
                              (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                              Episcopalianism or worse.
                            • orthodixie@aol.com
                              We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that s the route (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
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                                We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that's the route
                                (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                                Episcopalianism or worse.



                                I've never served a "mixed-marriage," so thank God I'm not implicated in the
                                above remark. :)

                                However, it does seem a disservice to the participants of this list to even
                                hint that a few of "our" clergy are watering down the Truth.

                                FWIW,
                                Fr Joseph Huneycutt
                              • Fr. Gregory Williams
                                My apologies -- the prior message was not meant to be public.
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
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                                  My apologies -- the prior message was not meant to be public.
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.