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Pray!!! Police besiege Mount Athos monks

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  • Basil Yakimov
    ... wrote: 2003.01.29 Guardian: Police besiege Mount Athos monks Helena Smith in Athens Wednesday January 29, 2003 The Guardian Armed police, bent on expelling
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 29, 2003
      --- In Orthodoxia@yahoogroups.com, Bill Samsonoff <samsonw@n...>
      wrote:
      2003.01.29 Guardian:
      Police besiege Mount Athos monks

      Helena Smith in Athens
      Wednesday January 29, 2003
      The Guardian

      Armed police, bent on expelling a group of maverick monks vehemently
      opposed to reconciliation between the Greek Orthodox and Roman
      Catholic churches, last night began blockading their high-walled settlement
      on the all-male monastic republic of Mount Athos.

      In an unprecedented step the holy mount's civilian administrator
      called for the police as the rebellious monks vowed to defy an order
      demanding
      that they leave the far-flung peninsula today.

      "We could hold out for two years," declared a defiant Abbot
      Methodius, who heads the ultra-conservative Esphigmenou monastery. "We are
      prepared
      to fight on even though the authorities have cut off our electricity,
      water, heating and food supplies."

      The 117 monks, the most doctrinally rigid of the 2,000 who inhabit
      an array of monasteries on the semi-autonomous republic, have denounced the
      Pope as a heretic.

      For years they have shrouded their medieval settlement with a banner
      proclaiming "Orthodoxy or death" while demanding that the Orthodox
      faith's spiritual leader, Bartholomew I, tone down his overtures towards
      Rome.

      The two main branches of Christianity have been separated since the
      Great Schism of 1054. But patience seems to be running out with the monks.

      Last month Bartholomew - who, as the Ecumenical patriarch, is based
      in Istanbul - pronounced the monks "schismatics". As such, he said, the
      clerics no longer represented the spirit of Orthodoxy and should be
      expelled - a decision that allowed the republic's state-appointed
      administrator to step in.

      Last night, the Greek authorities said police would remain outside
      the monastery until "every one" of the monks left.

      The row comes amid growing demands that Mount Athos lift its
      centuries-old ban on females, which extends to animals.
      Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003
      --- End forwarded message ---
    • maureengirard <maureengirard@yahoo.com>
      ... wrote: Does anybody have the current situation? Maureen ... settlement ... monastery. We are ... electricity, ... denounced the ...
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 29, 2003
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Basil Yakimov"
        <byakimov@c...> wrote:

        Does anybody have the current situation?
        Maureen
        >
        >
        > --- In Orthodoxia@yahoogroups.com, Bill Samsonoff <samsonw@n...>
        > wrote:
        > 2003.01.29 Guardian:
        > Police besiege Mount Athos monks
        >
        > Helena Smith in Athens
        > Wednesday January 29, 2003
        > The Guardian
        >
        > Armed police, bent on expelling a group of maverick monks vehemently
        > opposed to reconciliation between the Greek Orthodox and Roman
        > Catholic churches, last night began blockading their high-walled
        settlement
        > on the all-male monastic republic of Mount Athos.
        >
        > In an unprecedented step the holy mount's civilian administrator
        > called for the police as the rebellious monks vowed to defy an order
        > demanding
        > that they leave the far-flung peninsula today.
        >
        > "We could hold out for two years," declared a defiant Abbot
        > Methodius, who heads the ultra-conservative Esphigmenou
        monastery. "We are
        > prepared
        > to fight on even though the authorities have cut off our
        electricity,
        > water, heating and food supplies."
        >
        > The 117 monks, the most doctrinally rigid of the 2,000 who inhabit
        > an array of monasteries on the semi-autonomous republic, have
        denounced the
        > Pope as a heretic.
        >
        > For years they have shrouded their medieval settlement with a banner
        > proclaiming "Orthodoxy or death" while demanding that the Orthodox
        > faith's spiritual leader, Bartholomew I, tone down his overtures
        towards
        > Rome.
        >
        > The two main branches of Christianity have been separated since the
        > Great Schism of 1054. But patience seems to be running out with the
        monks.
        >
        > Last month Bartholomew - who, as the Ecumenical patriarch, is based
        > in Istanbul - pronounced the monks "schismatics". As such, he said,
        the
        > clerics no longer represented the spirit of Orthodoxy and should be
        > expelled - a decision that allowed the republic's state-appointed
        > administrator to step in.
        >
        > Last night, the Greek authorities said police would remain outside
        > the monastery until "every one" of the monks left.
        >
        > The row comes amid growing demands that Mount Athos lift its
        > centuries-old ban on females, which extends to animals.
        > Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003
        > --- End forwarded message ---
      • goossir <irene.goossens@cec.eu.int>
        Dear list, The European Parliament has a web address where petitions can be addressed: http://www.europarl.eu.int/petition/petition_en.htm It would be a good
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 30, 2003
          Dear list,

          The European Parliament has a web address where petitions can be
          addressed:
          http://www.europarl.eu.int/petition/petition_en.htm

          It would be a good idea that many of us send their protest. It is
          very easy, just enter the website and follow the instructions.
          We have done so in Brussels and even a parish in Russia.
          The more we are, the more effective this can be.

          In Christ

          Irina P


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "maureengirard
          <maureengirard@y...>" <maureengirard@y...> wrote:
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Basil Yakimov"
          > <byakimov@c...> wrote:
          >
          > Does anybody have the current situation?
          > Maureen
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Orthodoxia@yahoogroups.com, Bill Samsonoff <samsonw@n...>
          > > wrote:
          > > 2003.01.29 Guardian:
          > > Police besiege Mount Athos monks
          > >
          > > Helena Smith in Athens
          > > Wednesday January 29, 2003
          > > The Guardian
          > >
          > > Armed police, bent on expelling a group of maverick monks
          vehemently
          > > opposed to reconciliation between the Greek Orthodox and Roman
          > > Catholic churches, last night began blockading their high-walled
          > settlement
          > > on the all-male monastic republic of Mount Athos.
          > >
          > > In an unprecedented step the holy mount's civilian administrator
          > > called for the police as the rebellious monks vowed to defy an
          order
          > > demanding
          > > that they leave the far-flung peninsula today.
          > >
          > > "We could hold out for two years," declared a defiant Abbot
          > > Methodius, who heads the ultra-conservative Esphigmenou
          > monastery. "We are
          > > prepared
          > > to fight on even though the authorities have cut off our
          > electricity,
          > > water, heating and food supplies."
          > >
          > > The 117 monks, the most doctrinally rigid of the 2,000 who
          inhabit
          > > an array of monasteries on the semi-autonomous republic, have
          > denounced the
          > > Pope as a heretic.
          > >
          > > For years they have shrouded their medieval settlement with a
          banner
          > > proclaiming "Orthodoxy or death" while demanding that the
          Orthodox
          > > faith's spiritual leader, Bartholomew I, tone down his overtures
          > towards
          > > Rome.
          > >
          > > The two main branches of Christianity have been separated since
          the
          > > Great Schism of 1054. But patience seems to be running out with
          the
          > monks.
          > >
          > > Last month Bartholomew - who, as the Ecumenical patriarch, is
          based
          > > in Istanbul - pronounced the monks "schismatics". As such, he
          said,
          > the
          > > clerics no longer represented the spirit of Orthodoxy and should
          be
          > > expelled - a decision that allowed the republic's state-appointed
          > > administrator to step in.
          > >
          > > Last night, the Greek authorities said police would remain
          outside
          > > the monastery until "every one" of the monks left.
          > >
          > > The row comes amid growing demands that Mount Athos lift its
          > > centuries-old ban on females, which extends to animals.
          > > Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003
          > > --- End forwarded message ---
        • Hristofor
          Good idea! You may want to protest the EU push to allow women on the Holy Mountain. Hristofor
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 30, 2003
            Good idea! You may want to protest the EU "push" to allow women on the Holy
            Mountain.

            Hristofor

            At 08:15 AM 1/30/2003, you wrote:
            >Dear list,
            >
            >The European Parliament has a web address where petitions can be
            >addressed:
            >http://www.europarl.eu.int/petition/petition_en.htm
            >
            >It would be a good idea that many of us send their protest. It is
            >very easy, just enter the website and follow the instructions.
            >We have done so in Brussels and even a parish in Russia.
            >The more we are, the more effective this can be.
            >
            >In Christ
            >
            >Irina P
            >
            >
            >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "maureengirard
            ><maureengirard@y...>" <maureengirard@y...> wrote:
            > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Basil Yakimov"
            > > <byakimov@c...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Does anybody have the current situation?
            > > Maureen
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In Orthodoxia@yahoogroups.com, Bill Samsonoff <samsonw@n...>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > 2003.01.29 Guardian:
            > > > Police besiege Mount Athos monks
            > > >
            > > > Helena Smith in Athens
            > > > Wednesday January 29, 2003
            > > > The Guardian
            > > >
            > > > Armed police, bent on expelling a group of maverick monks
            >vehemently
            > > > opposed to reconciliation between the Greek Orthodox and Roman
            > > > Catholic churches, last night began blockading their high-walled
            > > settlement
            > > > on the all-male monastic republic of Mount Athos.
            > > >
            > > > In an unprecedented step the holy mount's civilian administrator
            > > > called for the police as the rebellious monks vowed to defy an
            >order
            > > > demanding
            > > > that they leave the far-flung peninsula today.
            > > >
            > > > "We could hold out for two years," declared a defiant Abbot
            > > > Methodius, who heads the ultra-conservative Esphigmenou
            > > monastery. "We are
            > > > prepared
            > > > to fight on even though the authorities have cut off our
            > > electricity,
            > > > water, heating and food supplies."
            > > >
            > > > The 117 monks, the most doctrinally rigid of the 2,000 who
            >inhabit
            > > > an array of monasteries on the semi-autonomous republic, have
            > > denounced the
            > > > Pope as a heretic.
            > > >
            > > > For years they have shrouded their medieval settlement with a
            >banner
            > > > proclaiming "Orthodoxy or death" while demanding that the
            >Orthodox
            > > > faith's spiritual leader, Bartholomew I, tone down his overtures
            > > towards
            > > > Rome.
            > > >
            > > > The two main branches of Christianity have been separated since
            >the
            > > > Great Schism of 1054. But patience seems to be running out with
            >the
            > > monks.
            > > >
            > > > Last month Bartholomew - who, as the Ecumenical patriarch, is
            >based
            > > > in Istanbul - pronounced the monks "schismatics". As such, he
            >said,
            > > the
            > > > clerics no longer represented the spirit of Orthodoxy and should
            >be
            > > > expelled - a decision that allowed the republic's state-appointed
            > > > administrator to step in.
            > > >
            > > > Last night, the Greek authorities said police would remain
            >outside
            > > > the monastery until "every one" of the monks left.
            > > >
            > > > The row comes amid growing demands that Mount Athos lift its
            > > > centuries-old ban on females, which extends to animals.
            > > > Guardian Unlimited ╘ Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003
            > > > --- End forwarded message ---
            >
            >
            >
            >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • maureengirard <maureengirard@yahoo.com>
            ... the Holy ... Thanks. I just sent them a petition. Maureen ... ... walled ... administrator ... overtures ... since ... with ... should ...
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 30, 2003
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
              wrote:
              > Good idea! You may want to protest the EU "push" to allow women on
              the Holy
              > Mountain.

              Thanks. I just sent them a petition.
              Maureen
              >
              > Hristofor
              >
              > At 08:15 AM 1/30/2003, you wrote:
              > >Dear list,
              > >
              > >The European Parliament has a web address where petitions can be
              > >addressed:
              > >http://www.europarl.eu.int/petition/petition_en.htm
              > >
              > >It would be a good idea that many of us send their protest. It is
              > >very easy, just enter the website and follow the instructions.
              > >We have done so in Brussels and even a parish in Russia.
              > >The more we are, the more effective this can be.
              > >
              > >In Christ
              > >
              > >Irina P
              > >
              > >
              > >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "maureengirard
              > ><maureengirard@y...>" <maureengirard@y...> wrote:
              > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Basil Yakimov"
              > > > <byakimov@c...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Does anybody have the current situation?
              > > > Maureen
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In Orthodoxia@yahoogroups.com, Bill Samsonoff
              <samsonw@n...>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > 2003.01.29 Guardian:
              > > > > Police besiege Mount Athos monks
              > > > >
              > > > > Helena Smith in Athens
              > > > > Wednesday January 29, 2003
              > > > > The Guardian
              > > > >
              > > > > Armed police, bent on expelling a group of maverick monks
              > >vehemently
              > > > > opposed to reconciliation between the Greek Orthodox and Roman
              > > > > Catholic churches, last night began blockading their high-
              walled
              > > > settlement
              > > > > on the all-male monastic republic of Mount Athos.
              > > > >
              > > > > In an unprecedented step the holy mount's civilian
              administrator
              > > > > called for the police as the rebellious monks vowed to defy an
              > >order
              > > > > demanding
              > > > > that they leave the far-flung peninsula today.
              > > > >
              > > > > "We could hold out for two years," declared a defiant Abbot
              > > > > Methodius, who heads the ultra-conservative Esphigmenou
              > > > monastery. "We are
              > > > > prepared
              > > > > to fight on even though the authorities have cut off our
              > > > electricity,
              > > > > water, heating and food supplies."
              > > > >
              > > > > The 117 monks, the most doctrinally rigid of the 2,000 who
              > >inhabit
              > > > > an array of monasteries on the semi-autonomous republic, have
              > > > denounced the
              > > > > Pope as a heretic.
              > > > >
              > > > > For years they have shrouded their medieval settlement with a
              > >banner
              > > > > proclaiming "Orthodoxy or death" while demanding that the
              > >Orthodox
              > > > > faith's spiritual leader, Bartholomew I, tone down his
              overtures
              > > > towards
              > > > > Rome.
              > > > >
              > > > > The two main branches of Christianity have been separated
              since
              > >the
              > > > > Great Schism of 1054. But patience seems to be running out
              with
              > >the
              > > > monks.
              > > > >
              > > > > Last month Bartholomew - who, as the Ecumenical patriarch, is
              > >based
              > > > > in Istanbul - pronounced the monks "schismatics". As such, he
              > >said,
              > > > the
              > > > > clerics no longer represented the spirit of Orthodoxy and
              should
              > >be
              > > > > expelled - a decision that allowed the republic's state-
              appointed
              > > > > administrator to step in.
              > > > >
              > > > > Last night, the Greek authorities said police would remain
              > >outside
              > > > > the monastery until "every one" of the monks left.
              > > > >
              > > > > The row comes amid growing demands that Mount Athos lift its
              > > > > centuries-old ban on females, which extends to animals.
              > > > > Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003
              > > > > --- End forwarded message ---
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • frmarkg <fr.mark@stjamesok.org>
              Sender: Orthodox Christianity Poster: Romanos Emmert Subject: Esphigmenou: a more thorough
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 30, 2003
                Sender: Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@...>
                Poster: Romanos Emmert <Aplatanao@...>
                Subject: Esphigmenou: a more thorough article

                Here's a more thorough article about the Esphigmenou situation than I
                have read elsewhere:

                http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
              • Kiril Bart
                What about an Orthodox way to help someone in need, just go and order moleben with akathist at your parish for persecuted monks of Espigmenou. Subdeacon Kirill
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 30, 2003
                  What about an Orthodox way to help someone in need,
                  just go and order moleben with akathist at your parish
                  for persecuted monks of Espigmenou.
                  Subdeacon Kirill

                  --- "maureengirard <maureengirard@...>"
                  <maureengirard@...> wrote:
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor
                  > <hristofor@m...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Good idea! You may want to protest the EU "push"
                  > to allow women on
                  > the Holy
                  > > Mountain.
                  >
                  > Thanks. I just sent them a petition.
                  > Maureen
                  > >
                  > > Hristofor
                  > >
                  > > At 08:15 AM 1/30/2003, you wrote:
                  > > >Dear list,
                  > > >
                  > > >The European Parliament has a web address where
                  > petitions can be
                  > > >addressed:
                  > >
                  > >http://www.europarl.eu.int/petition/petition_en.htm
                  > > >
                  > > >It would be a good idea that many of us send
                  > their protest. It is
                  > > >very easy, just enter the website and follow the
                  > instructions.
                  > > >We have done so in Brussels and even a parish in
                  > Russia.
                  > > >The more we are, the more effective this can be.
                  > > >
                  > > >In Christ
                  > > >
                  > > >Irina P
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,
                  > "maureengirard
                  > > ><maureengirard@y...>" <maureengirard@y...> wrote:
                  > > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Basil
                  > Yakimov"
                  > > > > <byakimov@c...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Does anybody have the current situation?
                  > > > > Maureen
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In Orthodoxia@yahoogroups.com, Bill
                  > Samsonoff
                  > <samsonw@n...>
                  > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > 2003.01.29 Guardian:
                  > > > > > Police besiege Mount Athos monks
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Helena Smith in Athens
                  > > > > > Wednesday January 29, 2003
                  > > > > > The Guardian
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Armed police, bent on expelling a group of
                  > maverick monks
                  > > >vehemently
                  > > > > > opposed to reconciliation between the Greek
                  > Orthodox and Roman
                  > > > > > Catholic churches, last night began
                  > blockading their high-
                  > walled
                  > > > > settlement
                  > > > > > on the all-male monastic republic of Mount
                  > Athos.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > In an unprecedented step the holy mount's
                  > civilian
                  > administrator
                  > > > > > called for the police as the rebellious
                  > monks vowed to defy an
                  > > >order
                  > > > > > demanding
                  > > > > > that they leave the far-flung peninsula
                  > today.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > "We could hold out for two years," declared
                  > a defiant Abbot
                  > > > > > Methodius, who heads the ultra-conservative
                  > Esphigmenou
                  > > > > monastery. "We are
                  > > > > > prepared
                  > > > > > to fight on even though the authorities have
                  > cut off our
                  > > > > electricity,
                  > > > > > water, heating and food supplies."
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The 117 monks, the most doctrinally rigid of
                  > the 2,000 who
                  > > >inhabit
                  > > > > > an array of monasteries on the
                  > semi-autonomous republic, have
                  > > > > denounced the
                  > > > > > Pope as a heretic.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > For years they have shrouded their medieval
                  > settlement with a
                  > > >banner
                  > > > > > proclaiming "Orthodoxy or death" while
                  > demanding that the
                  > > >Orthodox
                  > > > > > faith's spiritual leader, Bartholomew I,
                  > tone down his
                  > overtures
                  > > > > towards
                  > > > > > Rome.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The two main branches of Christianity have
                  > been separated
                  > since
                  > > >the
                  > > > > > Great Schism of 1054. But patience seems to
                  > be running out
                  > with
                  > > >the
                  > > > > monks.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Last month Bartholomew - who, as the
                  > Ecumenical patriarch, is
                  > > >based
                  > > > > > in Istanbul - pronounced the monks
                  > "schismatics". As such, he
                  > > >said,
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > clerics no longer represented the spirit of
                  > Orthodoxy and
                  > should
                  > > >be
                  > > > > > expelled - a decision that allowed the
                  > republic's state-
                  > appointed
                  > > > > > administrator to step in.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Last night, the Greek authorities said
                  > police would remain
                  > > >outside
                  > > > > > the monastery until "every one" of the monks
                  > left.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The row comes amid growing demands that
                  > Mount Athos lift its
                  > > > > > centuries-old ban on females, which extends
                  > to animals.
                  > > > > > Guardian Unlimited � Guardian Newspapers
                  > Limited 2003
                  > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >Archives located at
                  > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >


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                • iris cherry
                  ... Don t forget to leave a crisp $1 bill to cover the order (maybe an extra dollar if you supersize it with the Akathist) so the priest doesn t also feel
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 31, 2003
                    >What about an Orthodox way to help someone in need,
                    >just go and order moleben with akathist at your parish
                    >for persecuted monks of Espigmenou.
                    >Subdeacon Kirill

                    Don't forget to leave a crisp $1 bill to cover the order (maybe an extra
                    dollar if you supersize it with the Akathist) so the priest doesn't also
                    feel persecuted by the orthodox way. p.s. they shouldn't complain anyway.
                    That would be simony. tongue in cheek, Iris





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                  • luke padgett <boepad@msn.com>
                    ... Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I don t follow. For example... to halt communication with those of other faiths. Are they referring to
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 31, 2003
                      > Here's a more thorough article about the Esphigmenou situation than

                      > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                      > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1

                      Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I don't follow. For
                      example..."to halt communication with those of other faiths." Are
                      they referring to other Christian faiths, like Roman Catholics, etc.?

                      luke
                    • Rev. Sergei Overt
                      Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude. For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia allow marriages between Roman Catholic and
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 31, 2003
                        Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
                        For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia allow
                        marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians.
                        I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this also!
                        Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
                        Although, it's not nice that the monks are being evicted.
                        Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow Patriarchate and in Serbia
                        attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would probably not agree with the
                        eviction also.
                        Fr. S.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <boepad@...>
                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
                        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou


                        > > Here's a more thorough article about the Esphigmenou situation than
                        >
                        > > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                        > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
                        >
                        > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I don't follow. For
                        > example..."to halt communication with those of other faiths." Are
                        > they referring to other Christian faiths, like Roman Catholics, etc.?
                        >
                        > luke
                        >
                        >
                        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                      • Rev. Sergei Overt
                        Dear in Christ Fr. Gregory, You are right about what you say. Please know that Russian priests in ROCOR have always allowed this. (This is how our Russian
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
                          Dear in Christ Fr. Gregory,
                          You are right about what you say.
                          Please know that Russian priests in ROCOR
                          have always allowed this. (This is how our Russian parishioners understand
                          it - "It is allowed" ).From New York to Chicago to Los Angeles(except in
                          Archbishop Antony's diocese) to San Francisco to Vancouver. In every Russian
                          ROCOR parish mixed marriages between Orthodox and other Christians are is
                          allowed.
                          I believe it has hurt the Russian parishes spiritually. In rare cases ( I
                          have one in my parish) a good thing happened, the non-Orthodox spouse became
                          Orthodox!Glory to God! I respect this very much. In most cases though the
                          mixed marriage is just a compromise to not hurt the family.This is the
                          reality of our ROCOR Fr. Gregory.
                          I do not want to offend anyone by speaking about this delicate matter. I do
                          believe it has hurt ROCOR over the years and now especially.
                          I ask for your prayers, Fr. Gregory.
                          With love in Christ,
                          Fr.Sergei


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Fr. Gregory Williams" <frgregory@...>
                          To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 2:20 PM
                          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Esphigmenou monks extremists?


                          > Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I'll have to
                          > confess to being an extremist. "We" in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a
                          > significant number of others) do _not_ bestow the Church's blessing upon
                          > unions between Orthodox Christians and heretics of any variety. Such
                          unions
                          > are quite explicitly and vehemently forbidden by the Church, frequent
                          > "economies" in the present-day notwithstanding (see "Does the Orthodox
                          > Church Permit Mixed Marriages", Living Orthodoxy, vol. XI #2, for
                          pertinent
                          > canonical and other citations).
                          >
                          >
                          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@skynet.be>
                          Dear Father, bless. You write: Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it s not nice that the monks are being evicted... What the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
                            Dear Father, bless.

                            You write:

                            "Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it's
                            not nice that the monks are being evicted..."

                            What the ROCOR must make now clearer than ever, is that she will keep
                            her stand about ecumenism: it is a heresy.

                            Everybody will accept that extremism is not good. The only question
                            is to know what definition of extremism you accept. Stopping at a red
                            traffic light at night is considered an extremist behaviour by some
                            people. Always stopping at a red traffic light during the day is
                            considered an extremist behaviour by others. Among the latino-
                            catholics, insisting on going to church once a week is considered
                            extremist. For them, being an orthodox is being like a Taliban or a
                            fundamentalist intolerant sectarian.

                            As a priest, you are considered an extremist by the ecumenist, unless
                            you are one of them. I hope they call you an extremist. Being
                            called "extremist" by an ecumenist is a glory for a real orthodox.

                            Let us not, with the pretence of demonstrating something, first give
                            a derogatory adjective to an object that we do not like, and then
                            state that, since the object deserved that adjective, so therefore it
                            is wrong. You skipped the only interesting part of the discourse,
                            which is: what do you call extremism in this case?

                            The orthodox Church prohibits marriages with the non-orthodox, but
                            will accept to apply economy in many cases, according to the local
                            conditions. One of the cases where economy will be applied is when
                            the orthodox are a minority, which would mean that, without economy,
                            they would not be able to multiply, and thus to obey God's will in
                            this regard.

                            Let us not mix up the doctrine and the economy. See post
                            6598 "orthodoxy combines the total refusal of any compromise in
                            matters of faith and an incomparable loving care..."

                            Refusing ecumenism is not being an extremist. It is just being
                            orthodox. Being isolated is not being extremist, unorthodox or
                            sectarian. Very often, orthodox are isolated, and they will be more
                            and more so. Christ has warned us.

                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff


                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Sergei Overt"
                            <frsovert@3...> wrote:
                            > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
                            > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
                            allow
                            > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians.
                            > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this also!
                            > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
                            > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being evicted.
                            > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow Patriarchate and in
                            Serbia
                            > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would probably not agree
                            with the
                            > eviction also.
                            > Fr. S.
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: <boepad@m...>
                            > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
                            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou
                            >
                            >
                            > > > Here's a more thorough article about the Esphigmenou situation
                            than
                            > >
                            > > > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                            > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
                            > >
                            > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I don't follow.
                            For
                            > > example..."to halt communication with those of other faiths." Are
                            > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like Roman Catholics,
                            etc.?
                            > >
                            > > luke
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                          • Fr. Gregory Williams
                            Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I ll have to confess to being an extremist. We in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a significant
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
                              Christ is in our midst! Forgive me, fathers, but I guess I'll have to
                              confess to being an extremist. "We" in ROCOR, if it includes me (and a
                              significant number of others) do _not_ bestow the Church's blessing upon
                              unions between Orthodox Christians and heretics of any variety. Such unions
                              are quite explicitly and vehemently forbidden by the Church, frequent
                              "economies" in the present-day notwithstanding (see "Does the Orthodox
                              Church Permit Mixed Marriages", Living Orthodoxy, vol. XI #2, for pertinent
                              canonical and other citations).
                            • Kiril Bart
                              Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by economia, not as a normal practice. Subdeacon Kirill ... http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
                                Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by
                                economia, not as a normal practice.
                                Subdeacon Kirill

                                --- "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
                                > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
                                > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church
                                > Outside of Russia allow
                                > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox
                                > Christians.
                                > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this
                                > also!
                                > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
                                > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being
                                > evicted.
                                > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow
                                > Patriarchate and in Serbia
                                > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would
                                > probably not agree with the
                                > eviction also.
                                > Fr. S.
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: <boepad@...>
                                > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
                                > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help
                                > Esphigmenou
                                >
                                >
                                > > > Here's a more thorough article about the
                                > Esphigmenou situation than
                                > >
                                > > >
                                >
                                http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                                > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
                                > >
                                > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I
                                > don't follow. For
                                > > example..."to halt communication with those of
                                > other faiths." Are
                                > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like
                                > Roman Catholics, etc.?
                                > >
                                > > luke
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Archives located at
                                > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >


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                              • Kiril Bart
                                Well.. if you want to save two dollars, why don t you read it yourself? Also simonia wouldn t apply in here, it s a little different subject, rather if someone
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
                                  Well.. if you want to save two dollars, why don't you
                                  read it yourself? Also simonia wouldn't apply in here,
                                  it's a little different subject, rather if someone is
                                  paying for being ordained.
                                  Subdeacon Kirill

                                  --- iris cherry <ancianos25@...> wrote:
                                  > >What about an Orthodox way to help someone in need,
                                  > >just go and order moleben with akathist at your
                                  > parish
                                  > >for persecuted monks of Espigmenou.
                                  > >Subdeacon Kirill
                                  >
                                  > Don't forget to leave a crisp $1 bill to cover the
                                  > order (maybe an extra
                                  > dollar if you supersize it with the Akathist) so the
                                  > priest doesn't also
                                  > feel persecuted by the orthodox way. p.s. they
                                  > shouldn't complain anyway.
                                  > That would be simony. tongue in cheek, Iris
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • pvgol@aol.com
                                  I believe mixed marriages between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians was allowed in Russia as well. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
                                    I believe "mixed marriages" between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians was
                                    allowed in Russia as well.


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • batushka@msn.com
                                    Let us not forget that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr was Lutheran at the time of her marriage to Grand Duke Sergei, and she was not forced to convert. This she
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
                                      Let us not forget that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr was Lutheran at the time
                                      of her marriage to Grand Duke Sergei, and she was not forced to convert.
                                      This she did of her own free will. An excellent example of what can come of
                                      "mixed marriages".

                                      Father Basil


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Wrom: TFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRK
                                      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:44 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou


                                      > Mixed marriages are allowed as an exeption by
                                      > economia, not as a normal practice.
                                      > Subdeacon Kirill
                                      >
                                      > --- "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
                                      > > Yes, they have a very isolated ,extremist attitude.
                                      > > For example,we in the Russian Orthodox Church
                                      > > Outside of Russia allow
                                      > > marriages between Roman Catholic and Orthodox
                                      > > Christians.
                                      > > I guess the Esphigmenou monks would be against this
                                      > > also!
                                      > > Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow.
                                      > > Although, it's not nice that the monks are being
                                      > > evicted.
                                      > > Orthodox people in Russia attending Moscow
                                      > > Patriarchate and in Serbia
                                      > > attending Serbian Patriarchate churches would
                                      > > probably not agree with the
                                      > > eviction also.
                                      > > Fr. S.
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > Wrom: JVZCMHVIBGDADRZF
                                      > > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:15 PM
                                      > > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help
                                      > > Esphigmenou
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > > > Here's a more thorough article about the
                                      > > Esphigmenou situation than
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > >
                                      > http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?
                                      > > > > e=C&f=12998&t=01&m=A07&aa=1
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Some of the demands of the monks at Esphigmenou I
                                      > > don't follow. For
                                      > > > example..."to halt communication with those of
                                      > > other faiths." Are
                                      > > > they referring to other Christian faiths, like
                                      > > Roman Catholics, etc.?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > luke
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Archives located at
                                      > > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > __________________________________________________
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                                      > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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                                      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
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                                      >
                                    • Michael Nikitin
                                      Taking communion every week is considered extremism by some. Although partaking of the body and blood of Christ is something we should do according to our Holy
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
                                        Taking communion every week is considered extremism by some. Although
                                        partaking of the body and blood of Christ is something we should do
                                        according to our Holy Fathers.

                                        Michael N.

                                        From: "vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...>"
                                        <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                                        Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Pray!!! Help Esphigmenou
                                        Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 19:30:18 -0000

                                        Dear Father, bless.

                                        You write:

                                        "Sorry, extremism is now not what we in ROCOR follow. Although, it's
                                        not nice that the monks are being evicted..."

                                        What the ROCOR must make now clearer than ever, is that she will keep
                                        her stand about ecumenism: it is a heresy.

                                        Everybody will accept that extremism is not good. The only question
                                        is to know what definition of extremism you accept. Stopping at a red
                                        traffic light at night is considered an extremist behaviour by some
                                        people. Always stopping at a red traffic light during the day is
                                        considered an extremist behaviour by others. Among the latino-
                                        catholics, insisting on going to church once a week is considered
                                        extremist. For them, being an orthodox is being like a Taliban or a
                                        fundamentalist intolerant sectarian.

                                        As a priest, you are considered an extremist by the ecumenist, unless
                                        you are one of them. I hope they call you an extremist. Being
                                        called "extremist" by an ecumenist is a glory for a real orthodox.

                                        Let us not, with the pretence of demonstrating something, first give
                                        a derogatory adjective to an object that we do not like, and then
                                        state that, since the object deserved that adjective, so therefore it
                                        is wrong. You skipped the only interesting part of the discourse,
                                        which is: what do you call extremism in this case?

                                        The orthodox Church prohibits marriages with the non-orthodox, but
                                        will accept to apply economy in many cases, according to the local
                                        conditions. One of the cases where economy will be applied is when
                                        the orthodox are a minority, which would mean that, without economy,
                                        they would not be able to multiply, and thus to obey God's will in
                                        this regard.

                                        Let us not mix up the doctrine and the economy. See post
                                        6598 "orthodoxy combines the total refusal of any compromise in
                                        matters of faith and an incomparable loving care..."

                                        Refusing ecumenism is not being an extremist. It is just being
                                        orthodox. Being isolated is not being extremist, unorthodox or
                                        sectarian. Very often, orthodox are isolated, and they will be more
                                        and more so. Christ has warned us.

                                        In God,

                                        Vladimir Kozyreff




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                                      • Fr. Gregory Williams
                                        To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that anyone be forced to convert . The issue, and really the only issue, is whether the Church s
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
                                          To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that anyone be
                                          "forced to convert". The issue, and really the only issue, is whether the
                                          Church's blessing can appropriately be bestowed upon marital union between
                                          an Orthodox Christian and a heretic. If two people choose to live in such a
                                          union, that's their business (and the Lord's). The fact that it has been
                                          done and is being done does not wipe away the question, any more than the
                                          fact that people _have_ been united to the Church (even if inappropriately)
                                          with baptism, without chrismation, wipes away the question as to whether it
                                          is ever appropriate for someone from a heretical confession to be received
                                          into the Church other than by baptism (our bishops in a decree which has
                                          been published a couple of times in Living Orthodoxy, said it is not, even
                                          if it might have been at times in the past).
                                        • Fr. Gregory Williams
                                          Christ is in our midst! Please forgive delay, Father. Too much to do! I am of course well aware that this practice is widespread in our church, I think much
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
                                            Christ is in our midst! Please forgive delay, Father. Too much to do! I
                                            am of course well aware that this practice is widespread in our church, I
                                            think much to her detriment, and that of the people who are allowed, even
                                            encouraged by implication, to enter into such unions. I of course know of a
                                            few cases where (since God knows well how to write straight with crooked
                                            lines!) mixed marriages have ultimately led to the conversion of the
                                            non-Orthodox person. But I'm afraid I know of far more cases where at best
                                            a luke-warm sort of Orthodoxy on the part of one partner continues
                                            indefinitely, even if that.

                                            Of course, the issue of an existing marriage within which one partner
                                            becomes Orthodox is an entirely different matter.

                                            We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that's the route
                                            (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                                            Episcopalianism or worse.
                                          • orthodixie@aol.com
                                            We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that s the route (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
                                              We never do anyone any good by watering down the Truth -- that's the route
                                              (so avidly embraced, it would seem, by at least a few of our clergy) to
                                              Episcopalianism or worse.



                                              I've never served a "mixed-marriage," so thank God I'm not implicated in the
                                              above remark. :)

                                              However, it does seem a disservice to the participants of this list to even
                                              hint that a few of "our" clergy are watering down the Truth.

                                              FWIW,
                                              Fr Joseph Huneycutt
                                            • Fr. Gregory Williams
                                              My apologies -- the prior message was not meant to be public.
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
                                                My apologies -- the prior message was not meant to be public.
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.