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Re: [orthodox-synod] the antique calendar

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  • Gerald Herrin
    Agreed: and if the calendar is epiphenomenal, then don t change what is a nonessential. Isaac (Gerald) Herrin On Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 07:46 PM, Jan
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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      Agreed: and if the calendar is epiphenomenal, then don't change what is
      a nonessential.

      Isaac (Gerald) Herrin


      On Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 07:46 PM, Jan Rogozinski
      <jan814@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > What matters is what kind of life one lives between the rising and
      > the setting of the sun.
      >
      >
      Gerald Herrin
      geraldherrin@...
    • StephenATL
      Dear in Christ, Jan; I am sorry that no one has taken the time to answer your questions. Perhaps it is the tone in which you asked them. Anyway....... my poor
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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        Dear in Christ, Jan;

        I am sorry that no one has taken the time to answer your questions.
        Perhaps it is the tone in which you asked them. Anyway....... my poor
        and feeble knowledge is not eloquent enough to do so. Below are some
        links which will answer many of your questions........ and EXPLAIN the
        "How and Why" the calendar was changed........ and "why" many of us
        resist this change.....

        How and WHY the Calendar was changed in the Orthodox Church in the first
        place.........

        Part I: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/photii_1.htm

        Part II: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/photii_2.htm

        Liturgical Havoc Wreaked by the ┬źNew Julian┬╗ Calendar

        http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/calsci_ch9.htm

        MANY Articles on the Calendar Question..... from many sources

        http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_calendar.htm


        In Christ,
        Stephanos




        Jan Rogozinski wrote:

        > I keep hoping someone will explain to me, before I die, this
        > obsession with the "calendar." But I guess no one ever will.
        > Some "orthodox Christians" just take it for granted that we have to
        > use the same calendar Czar Nicholas used. When asked to explain why,
        > they say, "just because" or "kinda because."
        >
        > Any calendar is a human invention. From God's point of view, there
        > is no calendar. There merely is today, between the rising and the
        > setting of the sun. We may decide to call that portion of
        > time "January 2" or we may decided to call it "yzot nubza." As we
        > choose. It does not matter.
        >
        > It happens that the earth goes around the sun in a certain set number
        > of seconds every year. So that the winter equinox and the spring
        > equinox reoccur every year after the passing of a certain number of
        > seconds. It also happens that the Christian (Gregorian) way of
        > counting reflects that fact accurately, so that the date on which the
        > equinoxes occur is the same every year. The Pagan calendar of the
        > Emperor Julius does not reflect hat fact as accurately as does the
        > Christian Calendar. The error is very small. But after 2,000
        > years, it has mounted up to 14 days.
        >
        > The Orthodox Churches never have had their own calendar. The
        > Orthodox goal is to make time holy, to make the day holy whatever
        > human words are used to refer to the time between the rising and the
        > setting of the sun.
        >
        > Orthodox Bishops and laymen simply accepted the calender of whatever
        > country they lived in. Hence, in the Roman empire in the 4th
        > century, they simply took over the calendar of the [pagan] government
        > existing at that time. Now the government uses the "Gregorian"
        > calendar, which is superior to the "Julian" calendar. Why not simply
        > use it, exactly as the fathers for the ecumenical council accepted
        > the calendar used by the government of their own day?
        >
        > Some folk are thrown off because the accurate calendar is
        > called "Gregorian" after Pope Gregory. But Pope Gregory did not make
        > up the calendar. He simply paid the salaries of the scientists that
        > calculated the revised and superior calendar.
        >
        > Just as King James did not personally translate the scriptures. It's
        > called the "King James venison" because heterodox King James paid the
        > salaries for the heterodox clergymen that pulled together the
        > translation.
        >
        > Speaking of which, I find it astonishing that many of the
        > same "orthodox" bishops that refuse to use the Georgian calendar at
        > the same time allow their priests to use the heterodox King James
        > Version in the liturgy. Any calendar purely is a matter of science
        > having nothing to do with religion or the worship for God. The
        > translation for the scriptures is directly related to religion. And
        > the King James version is a mendacious piece of propaganda that
        > deliberately mistranslates the scriptures to "prove" the truth of
        > Calvinist theology. And Calvinist theology is, of course, precise
        > the exact the opposite of what Orthodox and Catholic Christians
        > believe.
        >
        > As I say, no one ever has offered to explain to me why modern
        > Christians should continue to use an inaccurate calendar. The
        > calendar of emperor Julius never was "adopted" by any church
        > council. The Fathers simply used it because it was there. They
        > understood that the calendar is a matter of secular science about
        > which bishops know nothing. And they also understood that it simply
        > does not matter what word one uses to label the space between the
        > rising and the setting of the sun.
        >
        > What matters is what kind of life one lives between the rising and
        > the setting of the sun.
        >
        > I always am always willing to learn. If someone can explain why we
        > ought to use the Pagan calendar of Emperor Julius instead of the
        > Christian calendar of Pope Gregory, then please explain it to me.
        > If your explanation makes sense, I'll agree with it. And if not, not.
        >
        > But simply to assert the superiority of the Julian calendar without
        > offering any explanation won't do. For one thing, asserting without
        > explaining is extremely and extraordinarily arrogant and thus hardly
        > a Christian way of behaving.
        >
        > Jan Rogozinski
        >
        >
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • for4z@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/2/2003 6:10:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Several years ago there was a much involved discussion on the calendar issue on this list;
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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          In a message dated 1/2/2003 6:10:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
          jan814@... writes:


          > But simply to assert the superiority of the Julian calendar without
          > offering any explanation won't do. For one thing, asserting without
          > explaining is extremely and extraordinarily arrogant and thus hardly
          > a Christian way of behaving.
          >

          Several years ago there was a much involved discussion on the calendar issue
          on this list; perhaps somebody can repost some of the explanatory letters
          that were written then. Here on this his list are also people who have
          extensively researched and studied this question, such as, for example,
          Father Alexander Lebedeff.

          As I understand it, the calender issue is not a sentimental one, rather it
          deals with spiritual and even practical thinking. Nobody will begin to argue
          the correct method for calculating Easter, which was established by the
          Ecumenical Councils. For if anyone celebrates Easter at another date, the
          Canons say he is to be excommunicated.

          When Orthodox Easter is supplemented with the Gregorian calendar, however,
          problems arise. Not only is the Apostles Fast at times completely lost, but
          so are the weekly Gospel readings, and eventually, Easter will begin to shift
          through the Gregorian Calendar, in many years even coinciding with Ascension,
          Pentecost, and Christmas! This obviously, was not intended by the Holy
          Fathers of our Church. As one priest put it, "the calendar/Easter system
          originally used and developed by the Holy Fathers is like a seamless, smooth
          running and oiled machine. Introducing the Gregorian calendar with Orthodox
          Easter is like throwing a wrench into the machine; it creates many unforeseen
          obstacles."

          Perhaps an expert can provide more examples and thoroughly explain this
          issue, but I hope this helps.

          -Nick Zaharov
          PS-There are many visible signs of nature's submission and concordance with
          the Church's authority (in the use of the calendar). The Holy Fire at the
          Holy Sepulchre only comes down at Orthodox Easter. As I have heard, the holy
          dew which falls on Mount Tabor only does so on the "old style" day of the
          Tansfiguration. I'm sure others can think of some more examples.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kiril Bart
          Jan for you to understand what issuies are important in calendar change you should be rather knowledgable in church services, are you competent to discuss it
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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            Jan for you to understand what issuies are important
            in calendar change you should be rather knowledgable
            in church services, are you competent to discuss it
            from liturgical point of view?
            Subdeacon Kirill
            --- "Jan Rogozinski <jan814@...>"
            <jan814@...> wrote:
            > I keep hoping someone will explain to me, before I
            > die, this
            > obsession with the "calendar." But I guess no one
            > ever will.
            > Some "orthodox Christians" just take it for granted
            > that we have to
            > use the same calendar Czar Nicholas used. When
            > asked to explain why,
            > they say, "just because" or "kinda because."
            >
            > Any calendar is a human invention. From God's point
            > of view, there
            > is no calendar. There merely is today, between the
            > rising and the
            > setting of the sun. We may decide to call that
            > portion of
            > time "January 2" or we may decided to call it "yzot
            > nubza." As we
            > choose. It does not matter.
            >
            > It happens that the earth goes around the sun in a
            > certain set number
            > of seconds every year. So that the winter equinox
            > and the spring
            > equinox reoccur every year after the passing of a
            > certain number of
            > seconds. It also happens that the Christian
            > (Gregorian) way of
            > counting reflects that fact accurately, so that the
            > date on which the
            > equinoxes occur is the same every year. The Pagan
            > calendar of the
            > Emperor Julius does not reflect hat fact as
            > accurately as does the
            > Christian Calendar. The error is very small. But
            > after 2,000
            > years, it has mounted up to 14 days.
            >
            > The Orthodox Churches never have had their own
            > calendar. The
            > Orthodox goal is to make time holy, to make the day
            > holy whatever
            > human words are used to refer to the time between
            > the rising and the
            > setting of the sun.
            >
            > Orthodox Bishops and laymen simply accepted the
            > calender of whatever
            > country they lived in. Hence, in the Roman empire
            > in the 4th
            > century, they simply took over the calendar of the
            > [pagan] government
            > existing at that time. Now the government uses the
            > "Gregorian"
            > calendar, which is superior to the "Julian"
            > calendar. Why not simply
            > use it, exactly as the fathers for the ecumenical
            > council accepted
            > the calendar used by the government of their own
            > day?
            >
            > Some folk are thrown off because the accurate
            > calendar is
            > called "Gregorian" after Pope Gregory. But Pope
            > Gregory did not make
            > up the calendar. He simply paid the salaries of the
            > scientists that
            > calculated the revised and superior calendar.
            >
            > Just as King James did not personally translate the
            > scriptures. It's
            > called the "King James venison" because heterodox
            > King James paid the
            > salaries for the heterodox clergymen that pulled
            > together the
            > translation.
            >
            > Speaking of which, I find it astonishing that many
            > of the
            > same "orthodox" bishops that refuse to use the
            > Georgian calendar at
            > the same time allow their priests to use the
            > heterodox King James
            > Version in the liturgy. Any calendar purely is a
            > matter of science
            > having nothing to do with religion or the worship
            > for God. The
            > translation for the scriptures is directly related
            > to religion. And
            > the King James version is a mendacious piece of
            > propaganda that
            > deliberately mistranslates the scriptures to
            > "prove" the truth of
            > Calvinist theology. And Calvinist theology is, of
            > course, precise
            > the exact the opposite of what Orthodox and Catholic
            > Christians
            > believe.
            >
            > As I say, no one ever has offered to explain to me
            > why modern
            > Christians should continue to use an inaccurate
            > calendar. The
            > calendar of emperor Julius never was "adopted" by
            > any church
            > council. The Fathers simply used it because it was
            > there. They
            > understood that the calendar is a matter of secular
            > science about
            > which bishops know nothing. And they also
            > understood that it simply
            > does not matter what word one uses to label the
            > space between the
            > rising and the setting of the sun.
            >
            > What matters is what kind of life one lives between
            > the rising and
            > the setting of the sun.
            >
            > I always am always willing to learn. If someone
            > can explain why we
            > ought to use the Pagan calendar of Emperor Julius
            > instead of the
            > Christian calendar of Pope Gregory, then please
            > explain it to me.
            > If your explanation makes sense, I'll agree with it.
            > And if not, not.
            >
            > But simply to assert the superiority of the Julian
            > calendar without
            > offering any explanation won't do. For one thing,
            > asserting without
            > explaining is extremely and extraordinarily arrogant
            > and thus hardly
            > a Christian way of behaving.
            >
            > Jan Rogozinski
            >
            >


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          • Fr. Gregory Williams
            God bless you, Jan! If you really care about this issue (rather than simply seizing an opportunity to propagandize a position already taken, facts or no), I
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 3, 2003
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              God bless you, Jan! If you really care about this issue (rather than simply
              seizing an opportunity to propagandize a position already taken, facts or
              no), I would urge you to consult our catalog (www.sjkp.org), entering simply
              as your search term "calendar". You will find some excellent resources
              addressing the issues you raise.
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.