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the antique calendar

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  • Jan Rogozinski <jan814@bellsouth.net>
    I keep hoping someone will explain to me, before I die, this obsession with the calendar. But I guess no one ever will. Some orthodox Christians just
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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      I keep hoping someone will explain to me, before I die, this
      obsession with the "calendar." But I guess no one ever will.
      Some "orthodox Christians" just take it for granted that we have to
      use the same calendar Czar Nicholas used. When asked to explain why,
      they say, "just because" or "kinda because."

      Any calendar is a human invention. From God's point of view, there
      is no calendar. There merely is today, between the rising and the
      setting of the sun. We may decide to call that portion of
      time "January 2" or we may decided to call it "yzot nubza." As we
      choose. It does not matter.

      It happens that the earth goes around the sun in a certain set number
      of seconds every year. So that the winter equinox and the spring
      equinox reoccur every year after the passing of a certain number of
      seconds. It also happens that the Christian (Gregorian) way of
      counting reflects that fact accurately, so that the date on which the
      equinoxes occur is the same every year. The Pagan calendar of the
      Emperor Julius does not reflect hat fact as accurately as does the
      Christian Calendar. The error is very small. But after 2,000
      years, it has mounted up to 14 days.

      The Orthodox Churches never have had their own calendar. The
      Orthodox goal is to make time holy, to make the day holy whatever
      human words are used to refer to the time between the rising and the
      setting of the sun.

      Orthodox Bishops and laymen simply accepted the calender of whatever
      country they lived in. Hence, in the Roman empire in the 4th
      century, they simply took over the calendar of the [pagan] government
      existing at that time. Now the government uses the "Gregorian"
      calendar, which is superior to the "Julian" calendar. Why not simply
      use it, exactly as the fathers for the ecumenical council accepted
      the calendar used by the government of their own day?

      Some folk are thrown off because the accurate calendar is
      called "Gregorian" after Pope Gregory. But Pope Gregory did not make
      up the calendar. He simply paid the salaries of the scientists that
      calculated the revised and superior calendar.

      Just as King James did not personally translate the scriptures. It's
      called the "King James venison" because heterodox King James paid the
      salaries for the heterodox clergymen that pulled together the
      translation.

      Speaking of which, I find it astonishing that many of the
      same "orthodox" bishops that refuse to use the Georgian calendar at
      the same time allow their priests to use the heterodox King James
      Version in the liturgy. Any calendar purely is a matter of science
      having nothing to do with religion or the worship for God. The
      translation for the scriptures is directly related to religion. And
      the King James version is a mendacious piece of propaganda that
      deliberately mistranslates the scriptures to "prove" the truth of
      Calvinist theology. And Calvinist theology is, of course, precise
      the exact the opposite of what Orthodox and Catholic Christians
      believe.

      As I say, no one ever has offered to explain to me why modern
      Christians should continue to use an inaccurate calendar. The
      calendar of emperor Julius never was "adopted" by any church
      council. The Fathers simply used it because it was there. They
      understood that the calendar is a matter of secular science about
      which bishops know nothing. And they also understood that it simply
      does not matter what word one uses to label the space between the
      rising and the setting of the sun.

      What matters is what kind of life one lives between the rising and
      the setting of the sun.

      I always am always willing to learn. If someone can explain why we
      ought to use the Pagan calendar of Emperor Julius instead of the
      Christian calendar of Pope Gregory, then please explain it to me.
      If your explanation makes sense, I'll agree with it. And if not, not.

      But simply to assert the superiority of the Julian calendar without
      offering any explanation won't do. For one thing, asserting without
      explaining is extremely and extraordinarily arrogant and thus hardly
      a Christian way of behaving.

      Jan Rogozinski
    • Gerald Herrin
      Agreed: and if the calendar is epiphenomenal, then don t change what is a nonessential. Isaac (Gerald) Herrin On Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 07:46 PM, Jan
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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        Agreed: and if the calendar is epiphenomenal, then don't change what is
        a nonessential.

        Isaac (Gerald) Herrin


        On Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 07:46 PM, Jan Rogozinski
        <jan814@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > What matters is what kind of life one lives between the rising and
        > the setting of the sun.
        >
        >
        Gerald Herrin
        geraldherrin@...
      • StephenATL
        Dear in Christ, Jan; I am sorry that no one has taken the time to answer your questions. Perhaps it is the tone in which you asked them. Anyway....... my poor
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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          Dear in Christ, Jan;

          I am sorry that no one has taken the time to answer your questions.
          Perhaps it is the tone in which you asked them. Anyway....... my poor
          and feeble knowledge is not eloquent enough to do so. Below are some
          links which will answer many of your questions........ and EXPLAIN the
          "How and Why" the calendar was changed........ and "why" many of us
          resist this change.....

          How and WHY the Calendar was changed in the Orthodox Church in the first
          place.........

          Part I: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/photii_1.htm

          Part II: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/photii_2.htm

          Liturgical Havoc Wreaked by the ┬źNew Julian┬╗ Calendar

          http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/calsci_ch9.htm

          MANY Articles on the Calendar Question..... from many sources

          http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_calendar.htm


          In Christ,
          Stephanos




          Jan Rogozinski wrote:

          > I keep hoping someone will explain to me, before I die, this
          > obsession with the "calendar." But I guess no one ever will.
          > Some "orthodox Christians" just take it for granted that we have to
          > use the same calendar Czar Nicholas used. When asked to explain why,
          > they say, "just because" or "kinda because."
          >
          > Any calendar is a human invention. From God's point of view, there
          > is no calendar. There merely is today, between the rising and the
          > setting of the sun. We may decide to call that portion of
          > time "January 2" or we may decided to call it "yzot nubza." As we
          > choose. It does not matter.
          >
          > It happens that the earth goes around the sun in a certain set number
          > of seconds every year. So that the winter equinox and the spring
          > equinox reoccur every year after the passing of a certain number of
          > seconds. It also happens that the Christian (Gregorian) way of
          > counting reflects that fact accurately, so that the date on which the
          > equinoxes occur is the same every year. The Pagan calendar of the
          > Emperor Julius does not reflect hat fact as accurately as does the
          > Christian Calendar. The error is very small. But after 2,000
          > years, it has mounted up to 14 days.
          >
          > The Orthodox Churches never have had their own calendar. The
          > Orthodox goal is to make time holy, to make the day holy whatever
          > human words are used to refer to the time between the rising and the
          > setting of the sun.
          >
          > Orthodox Bishops and laymen simply accepted the calender of whatever
          > country they lived in. Hence, in the Roman empire in the 4th
          > century, they simply took over the calendar of the [pagan] government
          > existing at that time. Now the government uses the "Gregorian"
          > calendar, which is superior to the "Julian" calendar. Why not simply
          > use it, exactly as the fathers for the ecumenical council accepted
          > the calendar used by the government of their own day?
          >
          > Some folk are thrown off because the accurate calendar is
          > called "Gregorian" after Pope Gregory. But Pope Gregory did not make
          > up the calendar. He simply paid the salaries of the scientists that
          > calculated the revised and superior calendar.
          >
          > Just as King James did not personally translate the scriptures. It's
          > called the "King James venison" because heterodox King James paid the
          > salaries for the heterodox clergymen that pulled together the
          > translation.
          >
          > Speaking of which, I find it astonishing that many of the
          > same "orthodox" bishops that refuse to use the Georgian calendar at
          > the same time allow their priests to use the heterodox King James
          > Version in the liturgy. Any calendar purely is a matter of science
          > having nothing to do with religion or the worship for God. The
          > translation for the scriptures is directly related to religion. And
          > the King James version is a mendacious piece of propaganda that
          > deliberately mistranslates the scriptures to "prove" the truth of
          > Calvinist theology. And Calvinist theology is, of course, precise
          > the exact the opposite of what Orthodox and Catholic Christians
          > believe.
          >
          > As I say, no one ever has offered to explain to me why modern
          > Christians should continue to use an inaccurate calendar. The
          > calendar of emperor Julius never was "adopted" by any church
          > council. The Fathers simply used it because it was there. They
          > understood that the calendar is a matter of secular science about
          > which bishops know nothing. And they also understood that it simply
          > does not matter what word one uses to label the space between the
          > rising and the setting of the sun.
          >
          > What matters is what kind of life one lives between the rising and
          > the setting of the sun.
          >
          > I always am always willing to learn. If someone can explain why we
          > ought to use the Pagan calendar of Emperor Julius instead of the
          > Christian calendar of Pope Gregory, then please explain it to me.
          > If your explanation makes sense, I'll agree with it. And if not, not.
          >
          > But simply to assert the superiority of the Julian calendar without
          > offering any explanation won't do. For one thing, asserting without
          > explaining is extremely and extraordinarily arrogant and thus hardly
          > a Christian way of behaving.
          >
          > Jan Rogozinski
          >
          >
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • for4z@aol.com
          In a message dated 1/2/2003 6:10:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Several years ago there was a much involved discussion on the calendar issue on this list;
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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            In a message dated 1/2/2003 6:10:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
            jan814@... writes:


            > But simply to assert the superiority of the Julian calendar without
            > offering any explanation won't do. For one thing, asserting without
            > explaining is extremely and extraordinarily arrogant and thus hardly
            > a Christian way of behaving.
            >

            Several years ago there was a much involved discussion on the calendar issue
            on this list; perhaps somebody can repost some of the explanatory letters
            that were written then. Here on this his list are also people who have
            extensively researched and studied this question, such as, for example,
            Father Alexander Lebedeff.

            As I understand it, the calender issue is not a sentimental one, rather it
            deals with spiritual and even practical thinking. Nobody will begin to argue
            the correct method for calculating Easter, which was established by the
            Ecumenical Councils. For if anyone celebrates Easter at another date, the
            Canons say he is to be excommunicated.

            When Orthodox Easter is supplemented with the Gregorian calendar, however,
            problems arise. Not only is the Apostles Fast at times completely lost, but
            so are the weekly Gospel readings, and eventually, Easter will begin to shift
            through the Gregorian Calendar, in many years even coinciding with Ascension,
            Pentecost, and Christmas! This obviously, was not intended by the Holy
            Fathers of our Church. As one priest put it, "the calendar/Easter system
            originally used and developed by the Holy Fathers is like a seamless, smooth
            running and oiled machine. Introducing the Gregorian calendar with Orthodox
            Easter is like throwing a wrench into the machine; it creates many unforeseen
            obstacles."

            Perhaps an expert can provide more examples and thoroughly explain this
            issue, but I hope this helps.

            -Nick Zaharov
            PS-There are many visible signs of nature's submission and concordance with
            the Church's authority (in the use of the calendar). The Holy Fire at the
            Holy Sepulchre only comes down at Orthodox Easter. As I have heard, the holy
            dew which falls on Mount Tabor only does so on the "old style" day of the
            Tansfiguration. I'm sure others can think of some more examples.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kiril Bart
            Jan for you to understand what issuies are important in calendar change you should be rather knowledgable in church services, are you competent to discuss it
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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              Jan for you to understand what issuies are important
              in calendar change you should be rather knowledgable
              in church services, are you competent to discuss it
              from liturgical point of view?
              Subdeacon Kirill
              --- "Jan Rogozinski <jan814@...>"
              <jan814@...> wrote:
              > I keep hoping someone will explain to me, before I
              > die, this
              > obsession with the "calendar." But I guess no one
              > ever will.
              > Some "orthodox Christians" just take it for granted
              > that we have to
              > use the same calendar Czar Nicholas used. When
              > asked to explain why,
              > they say, "just because" or "kinda because."
              >
              > Any calendar is a human invention. From God's point
              > of view, there
              > is no calendar. There merely is today, between the
              > rising and the
              > setting of the sun. We may decide to call that
              > portion of
              > time "January 2" or we may decided to call it "yzot
              > nubza." As we
              > choose. It does not matter.
              >
              > It happens that the earth goes around the sun in a
              > certain set number
              > of seconds every year. So that the winter equinox
              > and the spring
              > equinox reoccur every year after the passing of a
              > certain number of
              > seconds. It also happens that the Christian
              > (Gregorian) way of
              > counting reflects that fact accurately, so that the
              > date on which the
              > equinoxes occur is the same every year. The Pagan
              > calendar of the
              > Emperor Julius does not reflect hat fact as
              > accurately as does the
              > Christian Calendar. The error is very small. But
              > after 2,000
              > years, it has mounted up to 14 days.
              >
              > The Orthodox Churches never have had their own
              > calendar. The
              > Orthodox goal is to make time holy, to make the day
              > holy whatever
              > human words are used to refer to the time between
              > the rising and the
              > setting of the sun.
              >
              > Orthodox Bishops and laymen simply accepted the
              > calender of whatever
              > country they lived in. Hence, in the Roman empire
              > in the 4th
              > century, they simply took over the calendar of the
              > [pagan] government
              > existing at that time. Now the government uses the
              > "Gregorian"
              > calendar, which is superior to the "Julian"
              > calendar. Why not simply
              > use it, exactly as the fathers for the ecumenical
              > council accepted
              > the calendar used by the government of their own
              > day?
              >
              > Some folk are thrown off because the accurate
              > calendar is
              > called "Gregorian" after Pope Gregory. But Pope
              > Gregory did not make
              > up the calendar. He simply paid the salaries of the
              > scientists that
              > calculated the revised and superior calendar.
              >
              > Just as King James did not personally translate the
              > scriptures. It's
              > called the "King James venison" because heterodox
              > King James paid the
              > salaries for the heterodox clergymen that pulled
              > together the
              > translation.
              >
              > Speaking of which, I find it astonishing that many
              > of the
              > same "orthodox" bishops that refuse to use the
              > Georgian calendar at
              > the same time allow their priests to use the
              > heterodox King James
              > Version in the liturgy. Any calendar purely is a
              > matter of science
              > having nothing to do with religion or the worship
              > for God. The
              > translation for the scriptures is directly related
              > to religion. And
              > the King James version is a mendacious piece of
              > propaganda that
              > deliberately mistranslates the scriptures to
              > "prove" the truth of
              > Calvinist theology. And Calvinist theology is, of
              > course, precise
              > the exact the opposite of what Orthodox and Catholic
              > Christians
              > believe.
              >
              > As I say, no one ever has offered to explain to me
              > why modern
              > Christians should continue to use an inaccurate
              > calendar. The
              > calendar of emperor Julius never was "adopted" by
              > any church
              > council. The Fathers simply used it because it was
              > there. They
              > understood that the calendar is a matter of secular
              > science about
              > which bishops know nothing. And they also
              > understood that it simply
              > does not matter what word one uses to label the
              > space between the
              > rising and the setting of the sun.
              >
              > What matters is what kind of life one lives between
              > the rising and
              > the setting of the sun.
              >
              > I always am always willing to learn. If someone
              > can explain why we
              > ought to use the Pagan calendar of Emperor Julius
              > instead of the
              > Christian calendar of Pope Gregory, then please
              > explain it to me.
              > If your explanation makes sense, I'll agree with it.
              > And if not, not.
              >
              > But simply to assert the superiority of the Julian
              > calendar without
              > offering any explanation won't do. For one thing,
              > asserting without
              > explaining is extremely and extraordinarily arrogant
              > and thus hardly
              > a Christian way of behaving.
              >
              > Jan Rogozinski
              >
              >


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            • Fr. Gregory Williams
              God bless you, Jan! If you really care about this issue (rather than simply seizing an opportunity to propagandize a position already taken, facts or no), I
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 3, 2003
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                God bless you, Jan! If you really care about this issue (rather than simply
                seizing an opportunity to propagandize a position already taken, facts or
                no), I would urge you to consult our catalog (www.sjkp.org), entering simply
                as your search term "calendar". You will find some excellent resources
                addressing the issues you raise.
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.