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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: TELLING THE TRUTH IS DANGEROUS...

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  • janie pyle
    Thank you, Margaret, for saying what so many are thinking. Mr. Bartlett, please just use the delete key when you see certain names. Don t let them dissuade
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
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      Thank you, Margaret, for saying what so many are
      thinking. Mr. Bartlett, please just use the delete
      key when you see certain names. Don't let them
      dissuade you from returning to Orthodoxy. I hope you
      find a parish (I am in Rocor, also) where you may be
      nurtured as you travel the "royal path". I had hopes
      that some of these characters would make a resolution
      not to put their vitriol in print for the civil New
      Year but according to recent posts that doesn't appear
      to be happening. Let us remember to pray for these
      poor souls who are tares among the wheat. Delete and
      pray.... Magdalena

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    • Peter Okopny
      I am too, dismayed with such badgering going on before Christmas and overall. I thought this line was for FRIENDS of ROCOR ONLY, I believe that these people
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
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        I am too, dismayed with such badgering going on before Christmas and overall. I thought this line was for FRIENDS of ROCOR ONLY, I believe that these people should be removed from the list since they have proved that they are not!

        I pray that GOD may help them!

        One very sinful and annoyed Cossack,

        Peter Okopny
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Fr. John R. Shaw
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 7:32 AM
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: TELLING THE TRUTH IS DANGEROUS...


        Paul Bartlett wrote:

        > Just from a brief membership in these two mailing lists ("synod"
        > and "rocor") I am beginning to wonder if there is so much contention
        > that if God does guide me back to Orthodox Christianity then I wonder
        > where I will hang my hat. I was orginally baptized at Holy
        > Transfiguration Monastery, which then under the ROCOR but is now under
        > some other jurisdiction. All this wrangling in American Orthodoxy is
        > becoming very discouraging. Maybe I should just stay where I now am
        > (which is outside Christianity entirely).

        Let me point out that the impression one gets from these e-mail lists
        is very much skewed. "All this wrangling" is the work of a very small
        handful of people; they are heard from here, but not too much anywhere
        else (though HTM would be the exception, as it has been wrangling since
        1986).

        However, the sad truth is that "all this" has driven many people away
        from Orthodoxy and the Church over the years, who had been thinking of
        joining or returning.

        My recommendation is to visit an actual parish, rather than going only
        by what you read here...

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw


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      • Margaret Lark
        Glory to God for all things! From: Peter Okopny Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:55 PM ... And if there s *one* thing you
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 4, 2003
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          Glory to God for all things!

          From: "Peter Okopny" <peter.okopny@...>
          Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:55 PM

          | One very sinful and annoyed Cossack,

          And if there's *one* thing you *don't* want to do, it's tick off a Cossack.
          ;-)

          In Christ,
          Margaret Lark, sinner
        • Hristofor
          ... The so-called new path (a red herring of I ever saw one) can be compared to other hysterical claims of pending doom. Here is a sampling, spanning the
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 11, 2003
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            At 10:19 AM 1/1/2003, you wrote:
            >JRS: This endless, but vague, talk of a "new path in the ROCOR" may
            >seem very convenient to justify doing what one pleases. But when,
            >exactly, did the "new path" take effect? Vladimir Moss began making
            >this accusation over two decades ago; he particularly singled out the
            >late Archbishop Anthony of Geneva as a culprit, but Archbishop Anthony
            >of Geneva was responsible for the [initially secret] consecrations of
            >Varnava and Lazarus. It seems to me the very fact that these
            >accusations, brought forth by various "interested parties" at various
            >times since at least 1980 or 1981, if not earlier, belie that there has
            >been any change.

            The so-called "new path" (a red herring of I ever saw one) can be compared
            to other hysterical claims of pending doom. Here is a sampling, spanning
            the centuries:

            Old-believers thought the world was ending with the nikonian reforms and
            some even went as far as committing suicide.

            In the US, there have been untold numbers of sects which have foretold the
            pending "End of the World". The only thing that has ended was they: either
            by committing suicide or becoming a laughing stock when the World Did Not End.

            In the 90's, many Orthodox (myself among them), were concerned by the
            pope's desire for at least "pascal union" if not liturgical union between
            Rome and the Protestants by 2000. "See," said the far right-wingers, "first
            they will force RC Pascha on us and then full union will not be far behind!
            You wait and see." Well, here we are, waiting to ring in '03 in a few days,
            and I rarely hear mention about a common Pascha anywhere. In fact, the only
            talk that I have heard is among the Protestants, for a fixed date for their
            Easter. That probably would be anathema to Rome, and should be anathema to
            all Orthodox bishops.

            Hristofor
          • goossir <irene.goossens@cec.eu.int>
            Dear Hristofor, You write: « The so-called new path (a red herring if I ever saw one) can be compared to other hysterical claims of pending doom …..».
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 13, 2003
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              Dear Hristofor,

              You write: « The so-called "new path" (a red herring if I ever saw
              one) can be compared to other hysterical claims of pending doom …..».

              The recent dialogue below between Fr Seraphim Holland and Fr John
              Shaw is hardly a product of our imagination.

              "--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, " Fr. Seraphim Holland wrote:
              I have not had experienced much hatred or innuendo for a while, so I
              want to say plainly: I would completely accept union with the MP if
              my synod of bishops so desires it. A more likely scenario is
              liturgical communion, which I would also accept with great joy.
              Father John Shaw replied (post 7395): It seems to me that the two
              sides are getting closer and closer to each other all the time.
              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw"

              The rapprochement with the MP is taking place, despite so numerous
              postings on this list, (and not the least, the last interview of
              Alexis II, posted by V. Kozyreff), demonstrating the lies and deceits
              of the MP, which is in no way amending itself but wishes to shush any
              allusion to sergianism and ecumenism.
              We see now our priest acknowledging it in the face of the world that
              they accept with joy communion with the heretical MP.
              Father Seraphim writes that he is ready to a complete union with the
              sergianist-ecumenist MP if the synod desires it, in spite of the
              anathemas of 1983 and 1918. Fr John is confirming the probability of
              the rapprochement which is already seen in the October 2000 letter
              from the Synod to the Patriarch of Serbia: "... the desired
              rapprochement will advance, ...")
              And in:
              "We acknowledge that various views on the course of the Church of
              Russia exist among us, and it happens that these views do not always
              coincide". (Epistle of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox
              Church Outside of Russia To the Divinely Saved Flock in the
              Homeland). In http://www.holyvirginmaryrocor.org/epistle10-31-01-
              eng.html

              Well, dear Hristofor, this is what we call the new path/views in the
              ROCOR.

              In Christ,

              Irina Pahlen

              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
              wrote:
              > At 10:19 AM 1/1/2003, you wrote:
              > >JRS: This endless, but vague, talk of a "new path in the ROCOR" may
              > >seem very convenient to justify doing what one pleases. But when,
              > >exactly, did the "new path" take effect? Vladimir Moss began
              making
              > >this accusation over two decades ago; he particularly singled out
              the
              > >late Archbishop Anthony of Geneva as a culprit, but Archbishop
              Anthony
              > >of Geneva was responsible for the [initially secret] consecrations
              of
              > >Varnava and Lazarus. It seems to me the very fact that these
              > >accusations, brought forth by various "interested parties" at
              various
              > >times since at least 1980 or 1981, if not earlier, belie that
              there has
              > >been any change.
              >
              > The so-called "new path" (a red herring of I ever saw one) can be
              compared
              > to other hysterical claims of pending doom. Here is a sampling,
              spanning
              > the centuries:
              >
              > Old-believers thought the world was ending with the nikonian
              reforms and
              > some even went as far as committing suicide.
              >
              > In the US, there have been untold numbers of sects which have
              foretold the
              > pending "End of the World". The only thing that has ended was they:
              either
              > by committing suicide or becoming a laughing stock when the World
              Did Not End.
              >
              > In the 90's, many Orthodox (myself among them), were concerned by
              the
              > pope's desire for at least "pascal union" if not liturgical union
              between
              > Rome and the Protestants by 2000. "See," said the far right-
              wingers, "first
              > they will force RC Pascha on us and then full union will not be far
              behind!
              > You wait and see." Well, here we are, waiting to ring in '03 in a
              few days,
              > and I rarely hear mention about a common Pascha anywhere. In fact,
              the only
              > talk that I have heard is among the Protestants, for a fixed date
              for their
              > Easter. That probably would be anathema to Rome, and should be
              anathema to
              > all Orthodox bishops.
              >
              > Hristofor
            • Hristofor
              ... No offense to Frs Seraphim and John, but they are expressing their own opinions and views of the current situation. With the exception of the musings of
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 14, 2003
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                At 10:40 AM 1/13/2003, you wrote:
                >Dear Hristofor,
                >The recent dialogue below between Fr Seraphim Holland and Fr John Shaw is
                >hardly a product of our imagination.

                No offense to Frs Seraphim and John, but they are expressing their own
                opinions and views of the current situation. With the exception of the
                musings of Vl. Amvrosi and the German newspaper interview with Vl Mark, and
                etc, all of which have been thoroughly discussed on this list, I have yet
                to hear any other ROCA bishop express similar pro union views, either in
                the year that I have been on this list or elsewhere. Not one other bishop.
                Do one or two bishops set the course and direction of the whole Church? The
                more so since Vl Amvrosy is not a member of the Synod and thus doesn't even
                attend the more frequent synodal meetings. As a matter of fact, 2 bishops
                in separate private conversations have expressed to me a
                less-then-optimistic picture about the speed for union or communion.

                >The rapprochement with the MP is taking place,
                Isn't that what all we Russian emigrees have hoped and prayed for the last
                80 years? A lady in our parish now has relatives spread through 5
                _different_ Russian Orthodox jurisdictions, each one claiming to be The
                Russian Orthodox Church. I myself have them in 3. If someone happens to
                have some Ukrainian relatives as well, that could theoretically bring the
                total up to 8 or 9 jurisdictions. Is this normal? Surely you have heard the
                adage "Concur and divide?" Looks like that is what is happening. I have
                already mentioned how many Orthodox souls in the US have fallen or drifted
                away due to marriage etc. How many more need to be lost, because through
                the tragedy of the Revolution and the Diaspora, the Russian Orthodox no
                longer speak with one mind and voice? Who will answer for these people who
                have drifted away?

                >We see now our priest acknowledging it in the face of the world that
                >they accept with joy communion with the heretical MP.
                >Father Seraphim writes that he is ready to a complete union with the
                >sergianist-ecumenist MP if the synod desires it, in spite of the
                >anathemas of 1983 and 1918. Fr John is confirming the probability of
                >the rapprochement which is already seen in the October 2000 letter
                >from the Synod to the Patriarch of Serbia: "... the desired
                >rapprochement will advance, ...")

                BTW, Metropolitan Vitaly signed the letter to the Serbian Patriarch, did he
                not? Or did he "realise this mistake and remove his signature from that
                letter as well." There have been so many ukases followed by retractions
                from Mansonville with his purported signature, that it is hard to keep
                track...

                Mr Kozyrev's arguments aside for correcting a mistake, I wonder how many
                ukazes ROCA has issued in it's 80 year history that have later had
                signatures retracted from them? Certainly, there have been ukazes changing,
                abolishing or amending previous ones, as a situation may warrant, but those
                were always done with a majority of the bishops and not unilaterally. Since
                Mr Kozyreff has dismissed Fr Alexander's 3 reasons for signature
                retraction, what then could possibly have changed Vl. Varnava's mind? I
                presume all the bishops were privy to all the same information: they are
                all learned and knowledgeable about the current state of World Orthodoxy
                when the issue of the letter to Patr. Pavle arose. On the other hand, I
                don't know of any major scandal or crisis which erupted in the Serbian
                Church directly after our October sobor which would have changed Vl.
                Varnava's mind so abruptly.

                >We see now our priest acknowledging it in the face of the world that they
                >accept with joy communion with the heretical MP.

                Well, only you and a few others operate under the premise that the MP is
                heretical.

                One of the oddest parts to phantom about the schism (assuming that the
                reason for it is union/communion with Moscow, which I sincerely doubt) is
                that most of the issues and concerns troubling the French have been
                occurring in one form or another for years, without much ado. And
                then--boom!--in an instant, the French are in schism. For instance, just
                before the split, right there on rue Claude Lorrain, the Moscow
                myhrr-bearing icon of Tsar-Martyr Nikolai II is brought from Russia and is
                in our Parisian parish to be venerated. Fast-forward two years later and
                now some of the same people who venerated the icon are saying that the MP
                is heretical!!

                >And in:
                >"We acknowledge that various views on the course of the Church of
                >Russia exist among us, and it happens that these views do not always
                >coincide". (Epistle of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox
                >Church Outside of Russia To the Divinely Saved Flock in the
                >Homeland). In http://www.holyvirginmaryrocor.org/epistle10-31-01-
                >eng.html
                >
                >Well, dear Hristofor, this is what we call the new path/views in the
                >ROCOR.

                During the years of Soviet power, I never imagined how the USSR would meet
                its demise and I certainly didn't think that it would happen the way it
                would. As much as I would have loved for the USSR to disappear and the
                clock turn back to 1917, it just didn't happen that way. Hatred of the USSR
                and all the bad things which happened to Russia in the past century should
                not turn in to an illogical stumbling block which paralyzes all present and
                future activity.

                Labelling everything from the current activities of the MP to banning
                Christmas in an American school "sergianism" really belittles the true
                meaning of the word and does a disservice to all those who spoke out
                against Metropolitan Sergius and were subsequently martyred.

                Hristofor
              • wn4732 <wn4732@yahoo.com>
                ... the last ... The ... happens to ... bring the ... heard the ... have ... drifted ... through ... Orthodox no ... people who ... Finally a person with his
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 15, 2003
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,

                  Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:

                  > >The rapprochement with the MP is taking place,
                  > Isn't that what all we Russian emigrees have hoped and prayed for
                  the last
                  > 80 years? A lady in our parish now has relatives spread through 5
                  > _different_ Russian Orthodox jurisdictions, each one claiming to be
                  The
                  > Russian Orthodox Church. I myself have them in 3. If someone
                  happens to
                  > have some Ukrainian relatives as well, that could theoretically
                  bring the
                  > total up to 8 or 9 jurisdictions. Is this normal? Surely you have
                  heard the
                  > adage "Concur and divide?" Looks like that is what is happening. I
                  have
                  > already mentioned how many Orthodox souls in the US have fallen or
                  drifted
                  > away due to marriage etc. How many more need to be lost, because
                  through
                  > the tragedy of the Revolution and the Diaspora, the Russian
                  Orthodox no
                  > longer speak with one mind and voice? Who will answer for these
                  people who
                  > have drifted away?

                  Finally a person with his head on straight! God Bless you Sir and may
                  your words penetrate the stubborn hearts among the Orthodox Diaspora.

                  Peter
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